Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[alchemist]

Yes, you and I are of different realms of Taoist thought.

…

But let us not forget that there are others with different paths who feel just as you do.

That’s it. If only there were a separate forum for neidan discussions on this board, I would post this text there. That might prevented most of the conflicts and misunderstandings with those who are not interested in Daoist alchemy, since I never meant to dispute with them. But unfortunately there is only ‘Taoist Discussions’, so the misunderstandings like this are unavoidable.

BR

[dawei]

That’s it. If only there were a separate forum for neidan discussions on this board, I would post this text there. That might prevented most of the conflicts and misunderstandings with those who are not interested in Daoist alchemy, since I never meant to dispute with them. But unfortunately there is only ‘Taoist Discussions’, so the misunderstandings like this are unavoidable.

BR

 

I did want to open a neidan sub-forum... and maybe we'll get there...

 

but I don't think it will stop the misunderstanding as threads can start there and people can still say 'that is not neidan'.

[Marblehead]

I like the way this turned out. Thank you Alchemist, for understanding and talking 'with' me.

[Andrei]

 

"Daoist Teachings of Zhong and Lu" consists of the questions and answers between the two ancestors on the 18 specialized topics in cultivation ( "On true Immortals", "On Great Dao", "On Heaven and Earth", "On the Sun and the Moon", On Four Seasons", "On Five Elements", "On Water and Fire", "On Dragon and Tiger", "On Cinnabar and Medicine", "On lead and mercury", "On Extraction and Deposition", "On River Car", "On Restorative Cinnabar", "On refining the form", "On returning to the origin", "On internal viewing", "On Demonic Obstacles", "On verifications"). The book fleshed out the concepts clearly, revealed the different layers in each topic and it is full of wonderful discussions. This book had revealed to the world previously closely guarded daoist secrets. It is not an exaggeration to call this book the most important classic of the five ancestors and the seven sages and all the saints that followed them. DTZL is a more comprehensive discussion of the dandao of Zhong and Lu than any other publicly available classics.

To get to know the Zhong and Lu dandao better, the 18 topics of DTZL can be divided into 6 sections.

1. The Purpose. The goal of Zhong and Lu dandao is to become an immortal through cultivations. So what is an immortal? How to cultivate it? The answer is in "On true Immortals".

2. The Theory. Dandao is the fruit of the fusion between the great dao and the daoist culture. So how can we understand dandao from the point of view of the great Dao? The answer is in "On Great Dao".

3. The Theory from Yijing. Dandao culture was built on the backdrop of the idea "Heaven and Man become one". The "Heaven" in this idea consist of at least two levels of meaning. The "pre-heaven" (xiantian) stage of the universe and human, these had all been incorporated in the theory of "Zhou Yi". Secondly, how can we get to know the laws of the Yijing from observations of the circulation between of the heaven and earth, the movement of the Sun and the moon and the transitions between the 4 seasons and use these observations to help us understand the practical aspects of dandao. The different stages of the process in "Heaven and Man become one" are method of earth, method of heaven and method of Dao and they are explained in "On Heaven and Earth", "On the Sun and Moon" and "On the four seasons".

4. The theory of alchemy. The main idea in dandao is the theory of creation and rebirth, i.e. the creation of embryo from yin and yang, the embryo is nurtured until rebirth is possible. "Dao give birth to One, One gives birth to Two, Two gives birth to Three, Three gives birth to the ten thousands things". Creation is not possible without Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang is from "One", then where does "One" comes from? See "On the five elements". And how does "One" gives birth to Yin and Yang? See "On Water and Fire". How does Yin and Yang give births to the yang within yin and the yin within yang ? See "On Dragon and Tiger". How does Yin and Yang give birth to "Three", the embryo? And how do we nurture the Embryo ? See "On Cinnabar and Medicine". And how about the yin and yang in the embryo? See "On Lead and Mercury".

5. The theory on the cultivation method. Cultivation methods follow the laws of the nature, the theory in Yijing and the circulation between heaven and earth. How does one get the yin and yang, and how do we use the yin and yang? See "On extraction and deposition". How do we make the ying and yang follows the rise and fall (circulation) between the heaven and earth ? See "On River Car". How does one refine the quality and increase the volume of Yin and Yang? See "On restorative cinnabar". How does one cleanse the body with Yin and Yang? See "On Refining the form". How does one achieve transcension? See "On returning to the Origin". How does one see the process? See "On internal viewing". How does one overcome psychological obstacles? See "On demonic obstacles. The 10 methods and 45 segments of Ling Bao Bi Fa are precisely the practical methods to complement these theory.

6. On verifications. Since one has the methods, so we should also have verifications of the methods. To know the verifications in each stage, see "On Verifications". How does one assess the result and the achieved level of the immortality? See "On true immortals". How does one understand the great dao through cultivation ? See "On the Great Dao".

Looking at the content of DTZL, we can see that Ancestors Zhongli and Lu were standing and teaching us at a level unimaginable to mortals, they taught us true neidan and true methods, they told us that there are 5 levels of immortals: ghost immortal, human immortal, terrestrial immortal, shen immortal, celestial immortals. There are three levels of cultivation, minor cultivation, medium cultivation and great cultivation. Minor cultivation can grant one human immortal status, to live well and healthy on earth ; medium cultivation method can grant one terrestrial immortal status, to enjoy longevity; great cultivation method can grant one the shen immortal, celestial immortal status, to transcend from the material world. The method of neidan came from the great Dao, it states that the human body is a universe in itself, that's why one needs to imitate the circulation of the heaven and earth, the conversion of the 5 elements, the interactions of the sun and the moon in the body. To extract the Xiantian yang from the kidney water as the ingredients of dan, to mate the true yin and true yang, to mix and merge them, to circulate in the 3 fields, using yang to cook the yin and use the yin to refine the yang. By conversion of essence to qi, qi to shen, shen to the void and refine the void to Dao, then the golden dan can be formed and the yang shen can transcend. Jump out of the gate of heaven into the world of the three pure ones. The classic had detailed the 12 levels of internal refinement methods, they are Pairing the Ying and Yang number one, Collection and Dispersion of Water and Fire number two, The Mating of Dragon and Tiger number three, Burning and cooking the cinnabar medicine number four, The golden sphere flying up form the side number five, The jade liquid restorative cinnabar number six, the jade liquid refinement of the form number seven, the golden liquid restorative cinnabar number eight, the golden liquid refinement of the form number nine, returning to the origin to refine the qi number ten, internal viewing number eleven, transcension and subdivide number twelve. Combining sixth and seventh into one method, and the eighth and ninth into one method, reducing the twelve methods into ten, this is Ling Bao Bi Fa.

 

 

http://longmenpai.blogspot.ca/2008/10/brief-introduction-to-daoist-teachings.html

[Andrei]

 

Ling Bao Bi Fa is divided into three volumes, it was collected and published in the Supreme Pureness section (Tai Qing Bu) of the "Authentic Daoist Canon" (Zheng Tong Daocang). In the prologue of Ling Bao Bi Fa, Ancestor Zhongli quan stated that he had studied classics and consulted with many friends to learn about the great Dao, later he had found 30 volumes of "Ling Bao Jing" in Mount Zhongnan. In it "the first section called the Golden Words, written by the Jade Pure One; the middle section called the Jade Book, written by the Supreme Pure One ; the last section called True Origin, written by the Grand Pure One. Together made of several thousands words." Ancestor Zhongli ponders deeply on the materials and ultimately discovered the true meaning within: "To transcend the mundane and achieve Sainthood, which can be summarized in three levels of methods." He named it "Ling Bao Bi Fa" and transmitted it to Ancestor Lu Dongbin.

"The Daoist Teachings of Zhong and Lu" had mentioned that "Ling Bao Bi Fa" is divided into 10 volumes on 12 topics. Each topic has Six Yi, six ways of explaining the topic, they are : Golden Words (Gin Gao), Jade Book (Yu Shu), True Origin (Jhen Yuan), Analogy (Bi Yu), True Code (Jhen Jyue) and Essence of Dao (Dao Yao).

The content of Ling Bao Bi Fa can be divided into three volumes of ten gateways (or three levels of ten methods):

The first Volumes is called "Minor Methods for Good Health and Well Being", the four methods are Pairing the Yin and Yang number one, Collection and Dispersion of Water and Fire number two, The mating of Dragon and Tiger number three and Cooking the Cinnabar Medicine number four. This is the foundation method of building the neidan, following the methods can leads to good health and well being.

The second volume is called "Intermediate Methods for Longevity" which contains three methods, The Golden Crystal Flying Up from the Side number four, the Jade Liquid Restorative Cinnabar number five, the Golden Liquid Restorative Cinnabar number seven. These are the method to complete the neidan cultivation. The method can leads to longevity.

The third volume is called "Great Methods for Transcending from the mortal Realm" which contains three methods, Facing the origin to refine the qi number eight, Internal Viewing and Swapping number nine and transcension and Subdivision number ten. These methods can lead to transcendency.

In each method, it is explained from six different angles called the Six Yi, they are different ways to interpret and explain the method. Golden Words, Jade Book and True Origin were written by the Three Pure Ones who use the great Dao, the Heaven and Earth to explain the method. Analogy use the the ten thousands things as analogies to explain the qi and shen of the human body. True code and the essence of Dao summaries the methods and important points to watch out for during the practice.

 

 

http://longmenpai.blogspot.ca/2008_11_01_archive.html

[LaoZiDao]

To constantly hear members argue about which way is the "right" way gets boring very fast. And worst of all, no one gains anything.

 

This is a thread about Neidan, what is Neidan? It is a science, a very complex science. So yes there is correct ways and incorrect ways. Just like science/chemistry, you cannot do what you want and make up your own ideas and formulas (and if you did you would already be a Master of chemistry and you would know what you are doing), for people who are not Masters, they are students... generally there is a specific way and order to do things in a labratory to get the result you are after. What happens when you go to a labrotory and mix random chemicals, random substances, heat them, freeze them, mix them... 99.99% of the time if you did this without instruction or knowledge of what you are working with......you will harm your self, create dangerous concoctions, make an explosions. etc

 

So there is a specific way of Neidan, as it is too a science, and it is working with a very complex thing, the human body, sky and earth.

 

I understand you have no interest in Neidan / Daoist Alchemy. And that is fine, but this is what this thread is about, it is not about 'general Daoist discussion" on philsophical points that you feel attached to.

 

There is a lot to gain from this post, it is a translation of an ancient scripture, which has been translated quite decently. Anyone who is interested in Dao should be very greatful of the Wuluipai students to go out of their way to share this wonderful knowledge.

 

I have said before, although not here on this board, don't tell me about all your doubts, tell me something you believe in.

 

This thread is not about the OPs doubts, it is a anceint text from Ludongbing and Zhongliquan, who are Daoist Alchemical Masters, have been greatly respected for thousands of years. It is to help guide people to know what Neidan is, and what Neidan is not. As it is a very specific thing, it is not just "do what you want and follow your own way".

 

So again I will suggest that we should be talking about the benefits of the various paths and share our knowledge with others rather than arguing about which path is the better.

 

There was no argument of which path is better, but this is about what Neidan is, and what it is not. You can beleive what you want, but there is a very clear line between methods of Immortals and methods of general health and wellbeing (qigong etc).

 

I have no knowledge of who Lu Dongbin is or was or will be. Apparently (s)he isn't all that well known.

 

It is a suprise you have not heard of him, Ludongbing is actaully famous all over China, not just in Neidan cirlces. All Chinese will know of him and some will know his famous story about the Yellow Millet Dream, which also has a popular Opera about it. So culturally in China he is very respected and praised.. even if they have no interest of Daoism, all Chinese know about him.

 

BTW All paths lead to physical death. How long we wish to postpone this will determine which path we should follow.

Actaully this is not true for Neidan, but I won't argue this point here.

Edited August 8, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[nine tailed fox]

And from the title, I thought the op was serious

 

And we are gonna get true, secret, restricted techniques

[Daeluin]

I believe the true methods are largely spoken of in terms of principle, but not specific method, because there are multiple approaches. Certainly specific things need to happen to progress, but there are many ways to cultivate these conditions. By discriminating against the specific practices that have not reached the root on their own, we are guided further to understand the importance of the principle of aiming towards the one truth. Each of us are unique and different, and we might be led to specific teachers who can share a method appropriate to what comes most naturally to us. Or if we are divinely led, follow the principles and practice hard, we might have a chance to uncover the principles without a teacher, but this is also an easy way to get lost. Even with a teacher it is easy to get lost - we must be wary of side ways and secondary methods if we wish to reach the root and attain union with tao.

 

Some methods are explicitly spoken of, as in The Secret of The Golden Flower and Ling Bao Bi Fa. But still, unless one has dedicated one's life to and has an innate skill for navigating the internal, these methods are best illuminated by a teacher.

 

In the end, when the whole is divided, parts need names. Aim at the whole, don't attach to the vehicle. Even though the vehicle must be working, it is not what is most important.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

--

Edited August 8, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[alchemist]

 

but I don't think it will stop the misunderstanding as threads can start there and people can still say 'that is not neidan'.

In fact, there is a difference. When someone says he doesn’t believe (or not interested) in Daoist immortality, who am I to tell him he is wrong? That’s his choice. And since this topic is located in ‘Taoist discussions’ (a very general definition), some people may think that I thrust my opinion on them (and that actually happens, as you may see), while I am just quoting neidan classics.

On the contrary, neidan is a very specific thing, and there ARE true and false ways there. (Like in mathematics: if I say 2x2=4, I am right; if I say 2x2=5, I am wrong.) And more or less that can be argued, since there are recognized authorities.

BR

[alchemist]

And from the title, I thought the op was serious

 

And we are gonna get true, secret, restricted techniques

I am quite serious, of course.

But nobody gets true methods without becoming a disciple of a true school. That’s simple.

BR

[Brian]

Queue GMP...

[Marblehead]

HI LaoZiDao,

 

Thanks for responding to some of the things I said above.

 

Yes, Neidan is a discipline, a school, a practice, whatever label one wants to put on it. I have never argued that.

 

And yes, as it is a discipline there would certainly be dogma written that everone will agree is the true dogma of the discipline. If there are variations of the original teachings then there will always be disagreements.

 

What I am hoping for is that the discussions can continue so that some may gain knowledge and understandings from the discussions. It takes only a couple "Moderator Warnings" before a thread is headed toward The Pit. When this happens everyone loses.

 

Again, I am a Steward of this forum and that is the reason I am here posting; the only reason.

 

Sadly, I do not get notified when posts are reported so I was really unaware that members were getting personally involved and emotional about the thread and some of the posts. And no, I still do not know which posts were reported or by whom. In fact, knowing that would tarnish my vision and I wouldn't be able to be as non-discriminating as I am trying to be now.

 

Anyhow, all I am asking for is that the discussions be constructive. With a little good fortune a sub-forum will be created specifically for Neidan. This would allow the discussion the potential to be much more productive.

 

I will continue to respond to anyone in this thread who addresses me directly but at this point in time I really have nothing more to say.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

[dawei]

In fact, there is a difference. When someone says he doesn’t believe (or not interested) in Daoist immortality, who am I to tell him he is wrong? That’s his choice. And since this topic is located in ‘Taoist discussions’ (a very general definition), some people may think that I thrust my opinion on them (and that actually happens, as you may see), while I am just quoting neidan classics.

On the contrary, neidan is a very specific thing, and there ARE true and false ways there. (Like in mathematics: if I say 2x2=4, I am right; if I say 2x2=5, I am wrong.) And more or less that can be argued, since there are recognized authorities.

BR

 

In the end, there is no discussion if the only thing being said is "true methods are hidden and cannot be discussed".

 

In such a case, one has removed themselves from participating in a discussion as people are not interested in such stand-off-ness.

 

You would find people seriously interested if the topic was seriously discussed with examples.

[Marblehead]

"true methods are hidden and cannot be discussed".

I also see this as a cop-out due to a lack of knowledge about the subject. To pretend that one has knowledge that is unavailable to others is, IMO very egotistical and is nothing more than self-praise.

[Apech]

I also see this as a cop-out due to a lack of knowledge about the subject. To pretend that one has knowledge that is unavailable to others is, IMO very egotistical and is nothing more than self-praise.

 

Unless you do have such knowledge. But then of course you are unlikely to speak about it, much less broadcast the fact widely on the internet. In a sense to generalise, its not much different to saying to practice law you need to be qualified and to have that you need to attend a university or school which is closed to the general public ... you have to join and be a member there to attend lectures, take exams and receive a certificate. You are right of course if you are 'pretending' then that is likely to be a commercial thing ... to make your product more interesting.

[GrandmasterP]

MH said "- BTW All paths lead to physical death. How long we wish to postpone this will determine which path we should follow."

To which LaoZiDao replied -

"-

Actaully (sic) this is not true for Neidan, but I won't argue this point here."

 

Possibly best NOT to argue that point LaoZiDao as you're in for a soupçon of disappointment down the pike.

100% of people die.

Always and every ways.

That buddy, you can take to the bank.

 

Thing is with these Neidan boosters on here and elsewhere isn't so much them promoting their beliefs it's their 'triumphalist' " We are right, everyone else is wrong." inference.

If Neidan floats anyone's boat then that's fine but it's not necessarily in the best tradition of TTB to be posting like a fundamentalist evangelist.

In all fairness though their 'school' has only been going for 21-years which is the equivalent of two-minutes in the scheme of things.

They're young and they're keen.

Give their 'school' another few centuries and, if it survives; it'll no doubt mellow.

Look at Dr J and his outstanding interview on here.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35153-jerry-alan-johnson-ttbs-interview-answers/

Jerry is the 'go to' lad for Taoist Alchemy in a lineage that has been around for ages yet he never ever 'disses' anyone else.

He just gets on with the job, teaching and publishing his excellent books.

These Russian coves could learn a lot about marketing their schtick effectively from Dr J.

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[opendao]

That buddy, you can take to the bank.

 

Don't you find yourself here on the position of a "fundamentalist evangelist" trying to sell your world view you're so keen about? Usual British double standard?

 

Thing is with these Neidan boosters on here and elsewhere isn't so much them promoting their beliefs it's their 'triumphalist' " We are right, everyone else is wrong." inference.

If Neidan floats anyone's boat then that's fine but it's not necessarily in the best tradition of TTB to be posting like a fundamentalist evangelist.

In all fairness though their 'school' has only been going for 21-years which is the equivalent of two-minutes in the scheme of things.

They're young and they're keen.

 

You've missed a point that Daode center is just a branch of Wu Liu Pai school in China...

 

If you look around at different qigong centers in Europe, you would find that they are pretty young comparing to many hundreds years of schools like WLP or Yuxianpai.

 

If you read WLP texts, you will find same things people from different traditional Neidan schools write here.

 

I see your mood and intentions, but it's just emotions and lack of information, they make you blind.

 

He just gets on with the job, teaching and publishing his excellent books.

These Russian coves could learn a lot about marketing their schtick effectively from Dr J.

 

Perhaps, because you don't read Chinese and are not very attentive, you just have nothing to compare his "excellent" books with...

 

"As of November 2011, the Zhengyi Monastery at the Celestial Master’s Mansion "

"The Temple of the Celestial Cloud is a 501 © (3) Non-Profit Religious Organization, founded by Senior Abbot, Professor Jerry Alan Johnson in 2005"

 

So you think his 3 yo temple and 9 yo org is real mature and you can blame Daode Center to be 21 yo? are you kidding?

[Marblehead]

Unless you do have such knowledge. But then of course you are unlikely to speak about it, much less broadcast the fact widely on the internet. In a sense to generalise, its not much different to saying to practice law you need to be qualified and to have that you need to attend a university or school which is closed to the general public ... you have to join and be a member there to attend lectures, take exams and receive a certificate. You are right of course if you are 'pretending' then that is likely to be a commercial thing ... to make your product more interesting.

Yep. Send me $8,000.00 up front and I will consider sharing my knowledge with you.

 

But then, the honest possessor of magical knowledge wouldn't be spouting off their mouth on the internet telling everyone that they have it but aren't going to share it with anyone.

 

One who possesses wisdom does not advertise their wisdom, they use it. (Hopefully in beneficial ways to help others but more often than not it will be for self-greed purposes.)

[Marblehead]

PS It's nice to see the spirits are still lively here. Let's just don't get personal, Okay?

[Daeluin]

MH said "-

 

BTW All paths lead to physical death. How long we wish to postpone this will determine which path we should follow."

 

To which LaoZiDao replied -"-

 

>>>

Actaully (sic) this is not true for Neidan, but I won't argue this point here."

 

Possibly best NOT to argue that point LaoZiDao as you're in for a soupçon of disappointment down the pike.

100% of people die.

Always and every ways.

That buddy, you can take to the bank.

 

In one sense you are correct - but there are many ways of looking at life and death.

 

Taoist Celestial Immortality posits the possibility of transcending the paradigm of death found in the realms of Heaven and Earth. If you disagree with this, that is fine, but don't speak as though there is no room for alternate interpretations.

 

Certainly the principle of life and death extends beyond the realms of Heaven and Earth, but speculation on how seems rather futile and pointless. We can only say it is likely to be much different in principle.

 

 

Thing is with these Neidan boosters on here and elsewhere isn't so much them promoting their beliefs it's their 'triumphalist' " We are right, everyone else is wrong." inference.

 

 

Yeah, honestly this baffles me. They use very absolutist methods, which following the principles of Taoism are clearly known to draw contention and create karmic ripples.

 

Their attachments to right and wrong are hardly helping anyone go deeper and do not seem to be changing any minds. Rather separation is the result. We just rattle each others defenses and emphasize the line between us.

 

So I'm confused by the motive of such actions. The nature of Tao is to merge with everything else. Thus we see how the principles of Tao react to the influence of Confucianism and Ch'an Buddhism by absorbing these other Ways and applying Taoist principles to them, to show how the root of both is one.

 

In this modern era with its melting pot of beliefs and evolved intellectual behaviors, Tao remains true, and remains able to merge with other systems without contention, ever guiding them to the oneness shared by all.

 

Neidan, or, Internal Alchemy, is more than a set of methods - it is a map of principles. These principles explain how the energy of any life form might move through change. There are two directions - division and unity. Via the direction of unity, these principles map the way to true oneness.

 

Yes these principles are a science. But the words used to describe these principles, and the methods used to practice them, must also know how to adapt, lest their attachment to a fixed perspective cause them to stop flowing with the Tao and become themselves a side-path and an inconsistent method.

 

As society changes, the way people hear and understand things also changes. To force dogma upon them, calling it truth, and tell them they're wrong will only cause separation. However to listen to how they are hearing things, and to translate the principles so that they may be understood and applied is going to be more effective at leading them to listen to their tao and understand how the principles of Neidan are in operation inside of them. Teaching like this cultivates oneness rather than resistance and follows the way of Tao.

 

Forcing people to go along with something completely foreign to their way of life is hardly going to let them connect deeply enough to attain the Tao. They must learn to understand the principles from inside.

 

But to labor your spirit trying to make all things one, without realizing that it is all the same [whether you do so or not], is called "Three in the Morning."

 

What is this Three in the Morning? A monkey trainer was distributing chestnuts. He said, "I'll give you three in the morning and four in the evening." The monkeys were furious. "Well then," he said, "I'll give you four in the morning and three in the evening." The monkeys were delighted. This change of description and arrangement caused no loss, but in one case it brought anger and in another delight. He just went by the rightness of their present "this." Thus the Sage uses various rights and wrongs to harmonize with others and yet remains at rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter's Wheel. This is called "Walking Two Roads."

 

from Zhuangzi chapter 2, Brook Ziporyn

 

So too can the principles of Neidan be adapted and leveraged to uses of correction and guidance, without sacrificing either the integrity of the principles or the use of harmony. If one really understands the principles, one should not be afraid to speaking of them in more than one way. If one really understands the principles, one need not fear getting lost and trapped by inconsistent methods.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daeluin

[opendao]

so much them promoting their beliefs it's their 'triumphalist' " We are right, everyone else is wrong." inference.

 

Yeah, honestly this baffles me. They use very absolutist methods, which following the principles of Taoism are clearly known to draw contention and create karmic ripples.

 

Their attachments to right and wrong are hardly helping anyone go deeper and do not seem to be changing any minds. Rather separation is the result. We just rattle each others defenses and emphasize the line between us.

 

So I'm confused by the motive of such actions.

 

This is very usual, and I thought about it a lot in the past... The answer is simple: sincerity.

 

Sincerity is one of the first visible achievements on the Way. It comes from a correct practice, not from mind.

 

It shows up in words, that in modern society people find too much direct, strong, intolerant, offensive, triumphalist, absolute, exaggerated and so on.

 

People react this way, because the words are sincere, they wake up something inside called "conscience". People are different, their heart openness is different, so their reaction to such words varies.

 

When I've been meeting Neidan students from various schools and countries, I always saw the same sincerity in words, actions, thoughts, determination. Even here on TTB, where the communication is limited. Nobody has tried to "change somebody's mind" or "deepen somebody's understanding". But they directly separate right and wrong when they found it helpful for other people who are sincere in their determination to find truth.

 

For teachers and patriarchs, in their texts especially, this level of sincerity is overwhelming. There is nothing there that is right and wrong at the same time. They state clearly what is true and what is false. They directly speak about people's imperfections. They draw a line between. They separate. They don't try to satisfy the masses. They don't come down to their level...

 

Because they know it has no sense. Because it's not Dao. Because they unite absolutely other polarities, and know that true De has no humanity: they know it for sure because they learnt the ancient Dao taught by Lao Zi...

 

Those who can attune to this sincerity, they will find it beneficial, superficial and congenial. Others will continue to see just promoting, recruiting, selling and other things they got used to.

 

And the sincerity cannot satisfies insincere people's taste. They are incompatible on a very deep level. Now you know and I hope it burns some misunderstandings collected in this thread and in general :-\

Edited August 9, 2014 by opendao

[opendao]

When the man of highest capacities hears Tao
He does his best to put it into practice.
When the man of middling capacity hears Tao
He is in two minds about it.
When the man of low capacity hears Tao
He laughs loudly at it.
If he did not laugh, it would not be worth the name of Tao.

 

(DDJ 41, translated by Arthur Waley)

[LaoZiDao]

Powerful words Opendao, very well put.

[Daeluin]

One of the students rose and asked the Great One, "Venerable Teacher, how can we rid ourselves of conceptual and emotional contamination in order to prepare for spiritual cultivation?"

 

The Great One replied, "Dear student, contamination of the mind is not easy to discover and unravel. It begins in childhood. As one grows up, it is easy to give up the marbles and dolls one played with as a child, but emotional and conceptual patterns are not so easily identified, and people do not realize how much their attachment to them obstructs healthy growth.

 

"meditation is one way of helping someone see the problems of the reflective mind and develop the piercing wisdom that can eradicate them. If one is aware of what contaminates the mind, it is not difficult to cleanse oneself of it. Meditation has many different purposes -- enlightenment, understanding, and psychological change are a few -- but it can also be a way of nurturing and maintaining spiritual energy so that the elements of one's life can be integrated and developed to a higher level of being. After reflecting on and purifying all the old problems, the correct direction of meditation is to observe the balance of the mind. In all spiritual practice, however, sincerity is the essential factor; without it, no progress is made in any direction."

 

One of the visitors rose and asked the Great One, "Wise Teacher, what is the true meaning of sincerity? How can we recognize it in our daily lives?"

 

The Great One answered very simply, "Sincerity means to do something with great care and single-mindedness. It requires concentration and devotion and is the highest expression of the mind and emotions. Sincerity is the center of all positive virtues of the mind, such as peacefulness, serenity, calmness and fairness. There is an old saying that 'Where sincerity is, the way is open.' By nurturing sincerity within, one emits a light and warmth which radiate and reflect a subtle, supportive influence around one. In the small sphere of one's own life, sincerity is always enough to establish one's rightful position as a spiritually developed being in the universal as well as the social order of life."

 

Sincerity is a principle and a tool. It can be applied in different ways. Essentially it is the attaching of our intention in a particular shape and space, and the commitment to nurturing this attachment.

 

The greater our sincerity, the more powerful we make this attachment, and thus "Where sincerity is, the way is open."

 

The direction of our sincerity determines which way we open. When we are sincere in our cultivation, we are sincere to our true self. This is sincerity applied within. When apply sincerity externally, we might open a way towards many things, including things that are blocked. The more powerful our sincerity, the sharper it cuts when applied externally.

 

In the nature of teaching others with sincerity attached to truth, there are different ways one might open.

 

If one shapes so as to attach to the importance of avoiding side paths and inconsistent methods because of the importance to aim at the truth and recognize that inconsistent methods do not lead to the heart of the tao, then one's sincerity will be expressed in ways that strengthen this message. This opens a way of guidance through confusion.

 

If one shapes so as to attach to the importance of avoiding side paths and inconsistent methods because the side paths are "wrong," then one's sincerity will be expressed in ways that stress the importance of the concepts of right and wrong. This opens a way of polarization.

 

In this thread I see a lot of declaration without correction. Discipline without guidance. Absolutism without substance. People are told what is wrong, and when people ask what is right they are told it is secret and hidden. People are told things like: "it's better to not reveal your ignorance", essentially declaring others wrong regardless of what they might say. When people ask leading questions in attempts to work with the absolutist frameworks that have been presented, the response is one of "this is what is wrong with your question" and no guiding answer is given. The people who was asking the question has their momentum completely cut off, and rather than being guided towards correcting in a constructive way, the momentum is directly opposed and they feel like they have been met with hostility.

 

Thus when sincerity is shaped in a contentious way, it draws contention. The bickering seen in this thread is a result of the method of sincerity, not a result of the intended message, which is quite important. Unfortunately all the contention here is easier to see than the bits of and pieces of the message, most of which it seems people didn't really take to heart. If one was sincere in guiding others with this message, and approached it with compassion and applied sincerity in a way so as to lead the momentum of others towards something, rather than shutting down their efforts every step of the way, the contention could have been avoided and the message would come through loudly.

 

In this thread I see conflict covering up a message that was not delivered. I see where this conflict originated and my intent is to shine the light on what happened, and perhaps share something which others might be able to USE to avoid conflict in the future. If I were simply to say something to declare the "mistake" in inviting conflict, it would only make others feel "judged" and "belittled". Not only would their momentum be stopped, but in not guiding their energy somewhere, it is no different than were I to step in front of a charging bull. Maybe I can stop it once or twice with force, but every time it gets up it wants to charge right at me. Doesn't sound very developmental for me or the bull. So my intent is to invite speculation on how, with sincerity, one might deliver a message more effectively without inviting conflict by artfully leading and guiding others with actual substance.

 

Thus I am sincerely intent on describing an inconsistent method that is not getting anywhere, offering principles on how and why it is failing to achieve results, with guidance on how to apply the principles more effectively. And yet I do not say there is only one right way. Just as in the texts, there are many right ways and I have no desire to limit others from discovering their own way of applying the principles. I do not withhold some "secret correct method"; there are too many methods to describe - what is important is for one to remain sincere to the truth without getting lost.

 

 

The young student bowed graciously to the Great One and returned to his seat as a group of students came forward to present their questions. One of them said, "Great One, I have always wanted to be the student of a great teacher and learn from his achievement. It seems to me that if my faith in him were strong enough, then I would not need to cultivate myself; I would simply follow my teacher's instructions and put all doubt or distraction aside. So long as I went out in the world to serve the truth and fight for what is right -- even die for it if need be -- what else could there be?"

 

There was a stirring within the group, and finally one of the older students asked the Great One's permission to speak. The student said, "Fellow student and friend, it is a kind of sickness to fight over differences caused by various teachings or beliefs. With an unadorned nature of plainness, truth and simplicity, how can one become a warrior or a martyr to the nonsense of emotion and concept? If people continue to distort their true self with prejudice and separate themselves from others with false beliefs, eventually will not even be able to recognize their own faces."

 

Then another wise student added, "My brother has pointed out the spiritual crutch of external faith. When people habitually resort to such behavior, they become spiritual cripples who follow commands out of habit and refuse to look for their own remedies and inner growth. The only way people are enabled to find and achieve personal growth and an integrated, healthy life is through self-effort and self-cultivation."

 

The young student looked around at everyone and slowly rose to his feet. He said, "Wise friends, you have shown me that I should reflect more deeply before proceeding. I will give myself a chance to study and learn more so I can be a soldier of truth in the service of the Great Path."

 

The Great One still did not approve of the young student's militant attitude and he looked around at the students sitting nearest him. One of them rose and asked if he could illustrate the importance of self-cultivation further with a story. As the Great One nodded for him to begin he said, "There was once a king who greatly appreciated the art of calligraphy and he was particularly fond of the work of one artist. Among all of this man's works was a piece of prose which the king especially admired; it had been done at a gathering of poets who were celebrating the beauty of spring by the banks of a stream where they passed wine to one another by floating their cups across the water while reading their poems each to the other. The great calligrapher was inspired to write a record of this joyful event, and a masterpiece of calligraphy was produced. Afterward, he tried to make copies from the original, but none could ever surpass or even equal it. It was this unique work that the king so greatly respected and treasured.

 

"During the later years of the king's life, he became ill and passed the throne on to his son. As the hour of his death drew near, he summoned his son to his deathbed and said, 'My beloved son, you have the treasures of the entire kingdom. May I ask one small favor of you?' The son willingly agreed, and the old king said, 'It is nothing, really. I only ask that you put the calligraphy I love so dearly beside me in my tomb.'

 

'Even if you love something as much as the old king loved that piece of calligraphy, it is never your personal possession. As a spiritual student, it is not enough to deeply love the truth that has been taught; you must become and embody that truth. You see, spiritual achievement is much more evasive than artistic or worldly achievement. Blind faith and the fervor of being a follower can cause a person to lose his sense of what is important and become imbalanced through martyrdom, conflict or possessiveness."

 

The young student finally saw clearly the need to achieve himself through self-development, and the Great One added, "In spiritual growth, a person first develops conceptual understanding by listening to and reading the words of truly achieved ones. This is a necessary, preliminary step. However, one must then put that knowledge into practice, otherwise no further development can take place.

 

"Greatest of Wise Ones, would you share your precious and unlimited wisdom and understanding with us?"

 

The old gentleman, who was unshakably devoted to truth, rose from his silent contemplation and softly replied:

 

"Can you unify your mind and body

to stop their endless separation?

Can you express the truth of life

through freshness, like a newborn baby?

Can you purify your vision

that is so blemished?

Can you love the world and guide people

without deviating from

the wholeness of universal nature?

Can you refrain from struggling

on the path of change and catastrophe?

Can you remain detached

from conceptual knowledge,

And restore the clarity

of non-conceptual all-knowing?

To give and nurture life

without possessing it,

To work without claiming credit,

To nurture things,

without trying to control them,

Is called the subtle virtue of universal integration.

 

 

Ni, Hua Ching, The Uncharted Voyage Toward the Subtle Light,

From Chapters 35 and 20.