Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[damdao]

I think that this has become a little unfair towards our Wuliu friends. All of us know about school with pledge of secrecy or confidentiality it is not a feature of Wuliupai alone. Leaving aside yoga and buddhist schools, here if you ask some things to the Longmen guys here they wont answer.

Besides, it is not that they don't want to share, they teach in seminars and classes, don't write methods. I remember some months ago in reading the Russian forum a guy asked a detail about an exercise and was warned not to write down exercises in the forum, he has to go to a centre and ask personally or in the next seminar. So here we have a regular guy who attended a seminar and knows a neidan exercise asking a detail. I cannot find secrecy here, only following the rules. And a regular guy could learn the basics, like in many other schools.

Besides that, I find refreshing that in a time when all is relative and the psychological mumbo-jumbo has taken the place of real achievements some guys rise telling that neidan is a science with technical words and with very definite signs of progress.

[Marblehead]

I have no problem with that as long as it isn't a method of scamming people out of their money.

[Daeluin]

I have no trouble respecting the choices of a particular school. But generally contention arises when the dogma specific to one branch is projected as the true way of other branches.

 

There is a lot of projecting onto others in this thread in the name of truth. Just bullies shoving people around. It has nothing to do with their message. If other threads arise in this fashion they'll just generate more of the same. Personally I'd like to have a chance to hear their message unclouded by contention.

[damdao]

Daeluin, I understand your point. I posted my post at the same time than yours, so it was not intended to reply you, only the general course taken by the thread.

Of course, a contentious tone arise contention but behind the tone and the subjective reaction there is an interesting message. And I think that it could be a very very valuable one: Neidan is for real, not a legend stop mixing qigong trying to produce neidan results, be aware (and beware) of the difference between xiantian and houtian, etc.

Besides, we have to remember that the image of the peaceful daoist is an orientalist construct, Cleary (influenced by his sufi readings) devoted an entire book to the rebuttal of that image, so I see nothing undaoist in being very straightforward and direct.

I am not censoring you, honesty transpires in your post, only the conclusion (from earlier posts) that Wuliu guys are bad, scammers and are living in small appartments.

[Daeluin]

In my cultivation I find a union between conscious and subconscious awareness which tends to give "directness" a new meaning. What the union perceives as direct cannot be understood by only using the conscious mind, similar to how xian tian cultivation cannot be increased by only working with hou tian methods. However, the conscious mind can set its focus upon what is not completely conscious, just as hou tian methods can make room for xian tian development.

 

The peaceful taoist is simply one manifestation of one who sees clearly that to move in a straight line is to not move in a circle. We may use straight lines as methods, but they are incomplete unless they become circular in result.

[Daeluin]

I am not censoring you, only the conclusion (from earlier posts) that Wuliu guys are bad, scammers and are living in small appartments.

 

Thanks for pointing this out, and I completely agree. No one is at blame here, and ALL judgments from both sides contribute to struggle within the intended discussion. Including mine. I don't mean to press the issue... it'll be what it'll be.

 

In any case, I like to think y'all are true courageous heroes, and regardless of the patterns any of us may fall into in our online communications, that outside of these forums we are all doing our best to navigate this beautiful life.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Daeluin

[opendao]

In my cultivation I find a union between conscious and subconscious awareness which tends to give "directness" a new meaning. What the union perceives as direct cannot be understood by only using the conscious mind, similar to how xian tian cultivation cannot be increased by only working with hou tian methods. However, the conscious mind can set its focus upon what is not completely conscious, just as hou tian methods can make room for xian tian development.

 

<.. many other quotes were skipped ...>

 

Just to sum up: you disagree with Lu Dongbin and his statements about false methods? You think that any of the method from the list can lead to Neidan results, depending on some other factors?

 

Then I think it won't be hard to quote some _classical_ books from your lineage to support your disagreement. If you really want to pacify everybody, then please come back to a discussion in a scientific way, with proofs and texts and no emotions "like/dislike". As you've mentioned "absolutism without any foundation" cannot be really accepted, so please don't do yourself what you're against in others.

 

And for even better understanding of your ideas, it could be very beneficial to tell a few words about your lineage and texts your lineage is based around.

Edited August 9, 2014 by opendao

[Daeluin]

<.. many other quotes were skipped ...>

 

Just to sum up: you disagree with Lu Dongbin and his statements about false methods? You think that any of the method from the list can lead to Neidan results, depending on some other factors?

 

See, when people make statements and add question marks to the end, it makes it seem like a question, but really it's a declaration. This particular type of projecting is a manipulation - the question helps the subconscious open up, but really it's not a question at all, and in one's vulnerability one feels the stab of the declaration and closes off, raising defenses and usually reacting with their own projections in return.

 

Essentially, your above words are laden with emotion, and people are responding to the emotion, not the words.

 

Then I think it won't be hard to quote some _classical_ books from your lineage to support your disagreement. If you really want to pacify everybody, then please come back to a discussion in a scientific way, with proofs and texts and no emotions "like/dislike". As you've mentioned "absolutism without any foundation" cannot be really accepted, so please don't do yourself what you're against in others.

 

Most of my argument is based on my interpretation of the OP: It is important to aim at the whole rather than falling into the trap of inconsistent methods. When we cling to particular texts this is no different than any other inconsistent method. The importance of the text lies in our ability to apply the principles in real life.

 

The one paragraph you chose to quote is based on my own reflections after studying the essence of Tao found in many places, including classical Neidan texts. In the spirit of the OP, it isn't about proving the method that achieves the result, it's about pointing out methods that fail to achieve results. So I'm not really interested in proving my beliefs, but I am happy to discuss them with you if you offer me something to discuss.

 

If you want something scientific to study, I recommend Non Violent Communication. It is remarkably Taoist in principle, and remarkably Scientific in practice. It has been effectively used in war to create peace between two conflicting sides.

 

And for even better understanding of your ideas, it could be very beneficial to tell a few words about your lineage and texts your lineage is based around.

 

My lineage is the Tao. Everyone's lineage is the Tao. Anything else is standing in the way of the Tao.

 

My intent here is not to ruffle your feathers with a flashy retort. This is the truth. We should never take our awareness off the Tao. Otherwise I am blessed to study with a Master, who has taught me more through living experience than through words. I find it more effective to learn from the living demonstration of principles than reading about them in books. But also in books I have discovered much, and I have a great deal of respect for the classics. But the more I am able to embody the principle and see it come alive everywhere around me, more free I become.

 

If you want a direct lineage or whatever I'm not interested in giving you one. I would prefer to stand on the merit of my own actions.

[opendao]

See, when people make statements and add question marks to the end, it makes it seem like a question, but really it's a declaration. This particular type of projecting is a manipulation - the question helps the subconscious open up, but really it's not a question at all, and in one's vulnerability one feels the stab of the declaration and closes off, raising defenses and usually reacting with their own projections in return.

 

It was a question. Can you answer it? You made a lot of statements, please support at least some of them without wiggling around.

 

Essentially, your above words are laden with emotion, and people are responding to the emotion, not the words.

 

I have no interest to discuss somebody's emotions, it's a way to nowhere

 

Most of my argument is based on my interpretation of the OP: It is important to aim at the whole rather than falling into the trap of inconsistent methods. When we cling to particular texts this is no different than any other inconsistent method. The importance of the text lies in our ability to apply the principles in real life.

 

Your whole understanding cannot be based just on your thoughts. It has to have strong proofs in texts AND strong proofs in the teaching passed by your teacher. But your teacher didn't provide any words, so you use your own words, neglecting a possibility that it can lead to the lack of any proofs of your understanding...

 

The one paragraph you chose to quote is based on my own reflections after studying the essence of Tao found in many places, including classical Neidan texts.

 

references? For example, "Tao merges/unites with everything" - where you took that?

 

In the spirit of the OP, it isn't about proving the method that achieves the result, it's about pointing out methods that fail to achieve results. So I'm not really interested in proving my beliefs, but I am happy to discuss them with you if you offer me something to discuss.

 

Do you agree or disagree with Lu's ideas? Can you be sincere and direct?

 

If you want something scientific to study, I recommend Non Violent Communication. It is remarkably Taoist in principle, and remarkably Scientific in practice. It has been effectively used in war to create peace between two conflicting sides.

 

can you stop your violence then? you are defending your position so aggressively but providing no any substance for your claims except your experience. It's not really scientific I would say.

 

My lineage is the Tao. Everyone's lineage is the Tao. Anything else is standing in the way of the Tao.

 

So basically all your thoughts are based on your own experience and you cannot find any clear support for your thoughts in Dao texts, but you think that "your lineage is Dao" and that you understand Dao. No problems. Now at least it's clear why you speak this way and promote the equality of anything with everything.

 

I just need to mention that this approach has no real parallels in the tradition, and the texts clearly distinguish what is wrong and right without any references to "different people are different so any method is good". If you disagree, pls provide any clear classical quote to support it.

 

My intent here is not to ruffle your feathers with a flashy retort. This is the truth. We should never take our awareness off the Tao. Otherwise I am blessed to study with a Master, who has taught me more through living experience than through words. I find it more effective to learn from the living demonstration of principles than reading about them in books. But also in books I have discovered much, and I have a great deal of respect for the classics. But the more I am able to embody the principle and see it come alive everywhere around me, more free I become.

 

Why do you think that principles you got have any relation to Dao? What do you think your understanding of Dao is correct? Have your teacher heard your opinions and agreed with them? And he didn't ask you why your thoughts are different from Dao concepts as they were described by HIS teachers? Any modern Neidan lineage would go to Lu, this way or another. There are some exceptions, but their world view is also very different from what you write... So how do you know that your own thoughts are correct?

 

If you want a direct lineage or whatever I'm not interested in giving you one. I would prefer to stand on the merit of my own actions.

 

No lineage, no problem, but then it's not an opinion that have any weight in the tradition of Dao, if we discuss it in a traditional scientific way...

[Daeluin]

Tearing apart my argument still doesn't give me much to discuss with you. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

 

As far as lineages and weight goes, that's my point - I'm not interested in speaking when my words only matter because of their provenance.

[Marblehead]

Well, my lineage started when homo bentover got out of the trees about 4 million years ago and became homo erectus.

[opendao]

Tearing apart my argument still doesn't give me much to discuss with you. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

 

As far as lineages and weight goes, that's my point - I'm not interested in speaking when my words only matter because of their provenance.

 

No proofs, no probs

 

So maybe if nobody has no proofs against the text about false methods, somebody has some ideas now how to distinguish correct methods from false ones? There are a lot about it in texts...

 

The method ("how") wasn't disclosed and we can discuss the reasons why, but clear instructions about "what" has to be achieved, in "what" order and "what" signs show the correctness: all that can be found in texts by various schools starting with Huang Di and Lao Zi.

Edited August 9, 2014 by opendao

[opendao]

Besides, we have to remember that the image of the peaceful daoist is an orientalist construct, Cleary (influenced by his sufi readings) devoted an entire book to the rebuttal of that image, so I see nothing undaoist in being very straightforward and direct.

 

This is very important to understand, thanks. What is a book by Cleary about it?

[damdao]

The book is

http://www.amazon.com/Alchemists-Mediums-Magicians-Stories-Mystics/dp/1590306597

and here some quotes from the Introduction:

 

"Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians is a collection of sketches from Chinese history portraying more than one hundred of the remarkable individuals associated with exceptional knowledge, uncommon artistry, and spiritual leadership over a period of more than two millennia. Compiled under the title Mystic History by Zhang Tianyu, a Taoist priest in the fourteenth century, this collection introduces a broad range of personalities, professions, and pastimes of China’s esoteric elite, from the most illustrious to the utterly obscure. Among them are people who appear to the world as philosophers and scholars, strategists and statesmen, recluses and courtiers, magicians and mediums, philanthropists and educators, alchemists and physicians, seers and soothsayers, priests and paupers, artists and poets.

(...)

Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians features stories from the eleventh century B.C.E. to the thirteenth centuryC.E., following the course of orthodox dynastic history. Seeking to renew a unifying link between the esoteric and exoteric dimensions of traditional Chinese culture, in his introduction Zhang Tianyu invokes the father of Chinese historiography for a working definition of Taoism to outline the design of this collection:

 

The Grand Historian wrote, “Taoism has people’s vital spirit unified, acting appropriately without formality, sufficing all people. As for the practical methods, based on the universal order of yin and yang, taking what is good in Confucianism and Moism, distilling the essences of logic and law, they move with the times, change in response to the concrete, establish customs and carry on business in any way appropriate. The instructions are simple and easy to practice; little is done, but with much effect.”"

Besides, his reading and translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower is full of commentaries (not innocent ones) about the social integration of the adept and that the long hours of sitting meditation of zen monks is nothing but an expedient to deal with lazy monks.

So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture.

[GrandmasterP]

"So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture."

 

You got that right buddy.

In your own case at least.

Is fractiousness a set subject in your school or did you just take to it naturally?

 

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[damdao]

"So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture."

 

You got that right buddy.

In your own case at least.

Is fractiousness a set subject in your school or did you just take to it naturally?

 

 

So, a conceptual statement deserves a personal reply... I got it.

But, just for the record, as Alchemist said I am not from Wuliupai and don't have any intention to impersonate a disciple of such school.

I haven't the knowledge they have about the Daoist Canon and Classical Chinese Language and I only know neidan from English translations.

But for me is clear that theirs is a school worthy of investigation, and for me it is more important the facts they provide than a personal sense of comfort based on the attachment to a past training.

Run with the Dao is, also, be flexible enough to be aware of our own fantasies and constructs. So, if the mainstream view is that neidan and qigong are the same and must be european-western centered in its interpretation I have to be flexible to think that perhaps there is an alternate view worthy of being investigated and learned. And I think that they have provided plenty of proof about their view of neidan based in classical texts.

[GrandmasterP]

Eremitic quietism would be 'the' big picture for a hermit.

Still a few of those around in China and elsewhere.

These Russian lads would be more convincing if they weren't so fractious.

Can't be much of a teacher who lets her or his students rattle on as some on here do.

All it serves is to discredit the 'school'.

As I said elsewhere, it's a new young school ( in the scheme of things) hence needs to advertise for custom but triumphalism only defeats their cause long term.

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Taoist Texts]

Learn a fancy word everyday with GrandmasterP!

Eremitic quietism would be 'the' big picture for a hermit.
Still a few of those around in China and elsewhere.
These Russian lads would be more convincing if they weren't so fractious.

[GrandmasterP]

A day without learning is a day wasted - young man.

You think on and remember that now.

It'll serve you well in later life.

 

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Daeluin]

Alchemists, Mediums, and Magicians features stories from the eleventh century B.C.E. to the thirteenth centuryC.E., following the course of orthodox dynastic history. Seeking to renew a unifying link between the esoteric and exoteric dimensions of traditional Chinese culture, in his introduction Zhang Tianyu invokes the father of Chinese historiography for a working definition of Taoism to outline the design of this collection:

 

Besides, his reading and translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower is full of commentaries (not innocent ones) about the social integration of the adept and that the long hours of sitting meditation of zen monks is nothing but an expedient to deal with lazy monks.

So, a peaceful demeanour and an heremitic quietism doesn't seem to correspond with the big picture.

 

I'm not really seeing where you are attaching "peaceful demeanour" to "heremetic quietism." May one not apply a peaceful demeanour via social integration? To me yes this is very important - if one merely sits apart, they are excluding themselves from where the currents naturally flow, and the collective development there-in.

 

I also do not see where Social Integration implies that a peaceful demeanour is not cultivated. It is simple math - if one cultivates contention, these are the patterns that ripple out and return. This leads to a lifestyle entrenched in attacks and defenses, and the use of force. Conversely, if one cultivates harmony, this leads to a lifestyle of balance. Being balanced in the present situation without force allows one to flow like water uncontested. Thus one integrates socially without being impeded by their choices. A peaceful demeanor (ie, not being forceful, which causes people to react, thus limiting options for all), is A key - not the only one, but very important.

 

These principles are clearly stated in the Tao Te Ching.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Daeluin

[Taoist Texts]

 

As I said elsewhere, it's a new young school ( in the scheme of things) hence needs to advertise for custom but triumphalism only defeats their cause long term.

Yes, sir, it sure does. Perhaps this quote is a propos:

 

世之学人方入门户，直视神仙为至易之事，而遂骗化十方，罔知所忌。绝不思一丝一粒俱十方之血汗；一饮一啄皆众生之苦力。或有以口头禅笼人者；或有以假道法摄财者；或有以黄白术谋骗者；千方百计，不可枚数。异日欠下十分债账，不知如何消化。古人谓：“两只角或有或无，一条尾千定万定”者，必此辈欤？

 

Nowadays, the lay students barely entering the gate of teaching, wrongly regard the spiritual sainthood as a most easy business, and proceed to fool people on all sides (to teach), without observing the proscriptions. Totally unconcerned they are, that every thread of silk and every grain of rice (collected by them as fees) on all sides, is somebody’s sweat and blood; that every bite of their food and every swallow of their drink come from the bitter toil of sentient beings.

So, some of them fool people with corny clichés; some use false Dao to grab money; some scheme to cheat people with ‘art of white and yellow’ (artificial gold and silver); thousands of subterfuges and hundreds of tricks, uncountable ploys like that. But on the day when their karmic debt is due for payment in full, they would not know how to honor it. The ancients described them thusly: ‘one or two horns they may or may not have, but they do certainly have a tail behind’, is not this said exactly about this bunch?

[Marblehead]

A day without learning is a day wasted - young man.

You think on and remember that now.

It'll serve you well in later life.

 

Will we be tested?

[Marblehead]

Nowadays,

Litttle too much of an absolutist statement there for me. Sure, many, or even most, qualify for that statement, but not all. There are still honest students and honest teachers.

[opendao]

Eremitic quietism would be 'the' big picture for a hermit.

Still a few of those around in China and elsewhere.

 

For those who can buy such words I say one thing for now: read about Huang Di and carefully read Lao Zi. Find hermetism and quietism there.

 

These Russian lads would be more convincing if they weren't so fractious.

Can't be much of a teacher who lets her or his students rattle on as some on here do.

All it serves is to discredit the 'school'.

As I said elsewhere, it's a new young school ( in the scheme of things) hence needs to advertise for custom but triumphalism only defeats their cause long term.

 

Is this an example of your quietism then? Guys, you teach what you don't do, so who can take you serious?

 

About young school I already told you: find older if this is a criteria for you.

[opendao]

Yes, sir, it sure does. Perhaps this quote is a propos:

 

世之学人方入门户，直视神仙为至易之事，而遂骗化十方，罔知所忌。绝不思一丝一粒俱十方之血汗；一饮一啄皆众生之苦力。或有以口头禅笼人者；或有以假道法摄财者；或有以黄白术谋骗者；千方百计，不可枚数。异日欠下十分债账，不知如何消化。古人谓：“两只角或有或无，一条尾千定万定”者，必此辈欤？

 

Nowadays, the lay students barely entering the gate of teaching, wrongly regard the spiritual sainthood as a most easy business, and proceed to fool people on all sides (to teach), without observing the proscriptions. Totally unconcerned they are, that every thread of silk and every grain of rice (collected by them as fees) on all sides, is somebody’s sweat and blood; that every bite of their food and every swallow of their drink come from the bitter toil of sentient beings.

So, some of them fool people with corny clichés; some use false Dao to grab money; some scheme to cheat people with ‘art of white and yellow’ (artificial gold and silver); thousands of subterfuges and hundreds of tricks, uncountable ploys like that. But on the day when their karmic debt is due for payment in full, they would not know how to honor it. The ancients described them thusly: ‘one or two horns they may or may not have, but they do certainly have a tail behind’, is not this said exactly about this bunch?

 

now I want to see proofs that such words can be applied to the teaching of Lu Dongbin or Zhong Lu or WLP or YXP or Longmen or any other schools participated in this thread. You're giving shit, pls do it responsible. I've already told you many times: words without proofs mean nothing. It's just trolling.