Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[opendao]

I also do not see where Social Integration implies that a peaceful demeanour is not cultivated. It is simple math - if one cultivates contention, these are the patterns that ripple out and return. This leads to a lifestyle entrenched in attacks and defenses, and the use of force. Conversely, if one cultivates harmony, this leads to a lifestyle of balance. Being balanced in the present situation without force allows one to flow like water uncontested. Thus one integrates socially without being impeded by their choices. A peaceful demeanor (ie, not being forceful, which causes people to react, thus limiting options for all), is A key - not the only one, but very important.

 

These principles are clearly stated in the Tao Te Ching.

 

Let's think about because it's a very common concept.

 

What is harmony for people? Harmony is a flow with a stream without resisting it or force it or experience anything negative from it.

What is balance for people? It's a way to make Yin and Yang equal.

What flow people can follow naturally? The natural flow is a way to death. People born, grow up, socialize and die. That's all people can do without teaching. Some paths make this human way more comfortable and efficient (in mundane sense). It's good, and Lao Zi also gives advices for kings how to lead their kingdoms. But it obviously has no sense for internal work.

 

The way (Dao!) of people is to die. But Lao Zi says that his way is 'not a common way'.

 

His Great Dao is different. It opposes the natural flow of things, because it goes to immortality.

 

Can it be achieved by balancing the polarities? No. The end result is a pure Yang, it has no Yin. So it's not a balance as people understand it.

 

Can people naturally follow Great Dao? No, they don't feel it and cannot do that without external help. That's why teacher is so important. Only by forcing yourself to follow his/her guidances you can set yourself on the Great Way. Only by great efforts you can reach the state of being effortless (wuwei), when your actions follow the Great Dao.

 

Then your Great Dao won't be a human Dao of "homo erectus", described in "Tao of piglet" books. Damn LOL, cannot write serious any more...

 

Just read carefully what teachers wrote, and anyone with a clear vision will be able to confirm these words.

 

P.S. for Daeluin: I love to see people reactions. I love to see them waked up and ready to think sceptical about "everybody knows" cliché. I love when they don't repeat common words but think scientifically based on researches in texts. I'm not afraid about "karmic" bs from new-age stupid books.

 

Non-quietism and non-conformism are the gates to Great Dao. Tranquillity and tolerant approach are the gates to blindness... It's very easy to see in this thread, and I'm happy we have so nice conversation here. Love, peace, rock'n'roll.

[Daeluin]

It was a question. Can you answer it? You made a lot of statements, please support at least some of them without wiggling around.

 

I made a full post that answered your questions before you asked them. I'm not even disagreeing with you, but supporting the OP.

 

I have no interest to discuss somebody's emotions, it's a way to nowhere

 

Then why do you post using methods that clearly trigger people's emotions?

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it feels to me as though you miss some of the subtlety in the English language. You are very well spoken, but often you phrase things in ways that are considered violent to natives in this language. This is what I am trying to point out for you, so we can stop having discussions on the emotional level.

 

 

 

Most of my argument is based on my interpretation of the OP: It is important to aim at the whole rather than falling into the trap of inconsistent methods. When we cling to particular texts this is no different than any other inconsistent method. The importance of the text lies in our ability to apply the principles in real life.

 

Your whole understanding cannot be based just on your thoughts. It has to have strong proofs in texts AND strong proofs in the teaching passed by your teacher. But your teacher didn't provide any words, so you use your own words, neglecting a possibility that it can lead to the lack of any proofs of your understanding...

 

You're projecting again. You're telling me what my teacher provided me with, and telling me what I did without any knowledge of my background. I didn't say my teacher didn't use words, I said that living experience is emphasized more than words. Again this is something that triggers others to respond emotionally and is viewed as an attack in the methods of NVC.

 

As to what you quoted, how are you seeing that my understanding is based only on my thoughts? I quoted Zhuangzi: "This change of description and arrangement caused no loss, but in one case it brought anger and in another delight. He just went by the rightness of their present "this." Thus the Sage uses various rights and wrongs to harmonize with others and yet remains at rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter's Wheel. This is called "Walking Two Roads."

 

My argument is that clinging to texts without adaptation is itself an inconsistent method, which is supported by Zhuangzi, who advises adapting one's argument so as to work within harmony rather than remain attached to working form a perspective that is causing anger and contention.

 

Rather than answering my argument you attacked me, projected onto me that my words have no support from either ancient texts or from a teacher, neither of which are true. Why are you so interested in attacking me instead of discussing what we are here to discuss? Why are you being such a bully?

 

 

In my cultivation I find a union between conscious and subconscious awareness which tends to give "directness" a new meaning. What the union perceives as direct cannot be understood by only using the conscious mind, similar to how xian tian cultivation cannot be increased by only working with hou tian methods. However, the conscious mind can set its focus upon what is not completely conscious, just as hou tian methods can make room for xian tian development.

 

>>>>>The one paragraph you chose to quote is based on my own reflections after studying the essence of Tao found in many places, including classical Neidan texts.

 

references? For example, "Tao merges/unites with everything" - where you took that?

 

Hmm... that isn't something I said in the quote, and I don't recall phrasing something like this, although perhaps I did. Can you help me recall where please?

 

I'd prefer to emphasize that the Tao IS everything, and in cultivation we merge with it even as we find our own root within it. See TTC chapter 1:

 

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth.

The named is the root of all things.

Therefore, by being free from passion and desire,

the subtleties of Tao can be experienced.

The things existing in the world of duality can be well known

by possessing passions and desires.

The two above mentioned have the same source but are given different names.

The ability of transformation between the two is a most mysterious thing,

or the door of all mysteries.

 

tl; Hu Xuezhi

 

Edit: Here, from the Book of Balance and Harmony (中和集):

 

The Accomplishment of Sages

 

The reason sages are sages is because of their application of the Changes. The means whereby application of the Changes produces accomplishment are openness and calm.

 

When open on takes in all; when calm one perceives all. When open, one can accept people; when calm, one can deal with events. When openness and calm are practiced for a long time, the awareness is clarified.

 

Openness is the image of heaven, calm is the image of earth. Spontaneous strengthening without cease is the openness of heaven, rich virtue supporting beings is the calm of earth. Empty vastness without bound is the openness of heaven; universal breadth without limit is the calm of earth.

 

The Tao of heaven and earth is this openness, this calm. When openness and calm are in oneself, then heaven and earth are in oneself. This is what is meant by the saying in Taoist scripture, "If people can always be clear and calm, all heaven and earth will come to them." Clarity is openness; openness and calm are the sages' accomplishment of spiritual qualities."

 

 

In the spirit of the OP, it isn't about proving the method that achieves the result, it's about pointing out methods that fail to achieve results. So I'm not really interested in proving my beliefs, but I am happy to discuss them with you if you offer me something to discuss.

 

Do you agree or disagree with Lu's ideas? Can you be sincere and direct?

 

Are you saying I am not being sincere and direct, or are you simply asking me to be? The later is an innocent question, the former is laden with implications without directly giving me a chance to discuss them. Ironically that would make this an indirect attack. I'll assume you are innocently asking me to be sincere and direct.

 

As for agreeing or disagreeing let's see. First of all, it is Lu asking a question and Zhongli Quan who answers. He basically says that the Great Tao is difficult for people to understand and realize because false methods are considered efficient and widely spread and lead people to discredit the teachings. Yes, I agree with this. I have never disagreed.

 

can you stop your violence then? you are defending your position so aggressively but providing no any substance for your claims except your experience. It's not really scientific I would say.

 

Now, now. My desire to share Non Violent Communication with you is so that you can see why your words trigger battles everywhere you go. If you feel attacked, it is only your violence that is being attacked, by myself and others. Even as I challenge you, I attempt to do so with compassion, making as few projections as possible. Thus I am trying to point out where and how you trigger others to react based on principles which I have been doing my best to support in multiple ways.

 

Otherwise I have been objectively defending myself from your attacks. Here's another example of where you are telling me I only support my claims with my experience, even as I provide an entire lineage to support my accusation of your violence. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, and for that I do apologize, but Non Violent Communication is a system that has specific science behind it and evidence to it's efficacy. It may not be a Neidan classic, but it follows principles to achieve results. Further, it achieves results in resonates with Taoist principles. The Taoist I Ching suggests it is best to meet the world with Flexibility while keeping Firmness on the inside, rather than using force and weakness (Taoist I-Ching). And the concept of flowing like water, can be found within the practice of NVC.

 

8

 

The highest goodness is like water.

Water is apt to benefit all things, but never strives with them for its own ends.

It abides in places people disdain; thus it has the closest resemblance with Tao.

The superior people follow the example of water.

They stay at ease with lowness,

They are profound and still with their hearts,

They bestow without aspiring for returns,

They speak with sincerity and faith,

They govern in a clear and upright way,

They deal with affairs in a capable way,

They take actions in a timely way.

It is just because they do not strive that they keep free from any faults.

 

Hu Xuezhi

 

 

So basically all your thoughts are based on your own experience and you cannot find any clear support for your thoughts in Dao texts, but you think that "your lineage is Dao" and that you understand Dao. No problems. Now at least it's clear why you speak this way and promote the equality of anything with everything.

 

As I've discussed above, you are projecting labels onto me without attempting to discover anything. You ignore where I have supported myself using texts and say my thoughts are based on my own experience alone. You presume that just because my teacher uses few words that we do not speak at all, and that I am taught nothing of Taoist heritage from my teacher or his lineage.

 

Further, when I specifically describe how I respect the texts and work on embodying their principles in all I see around me, you seem to be dismissing my experiences as presuming that I understand Dao without basis.

 

Why do you attempt to discredit me so strongly? You seem to see my attack upon your violence as an attack upon your teachings. To me this feels as though you are so deeply enmired in this lifestyle of attack and defense that you cannot fathom how I might be able to support you and attack you at the same time.

 

You've mentioned before how you do not believe something can be right and wrong at the same time. But that's what I think you are missing. Please consult chapters 1 and 2 of Zhuangzi - they clearly describe how we are all made of different scopes, and what is right for one person might be wrong for another. Further, the idea of "Walking Two Roads" is precisely the method by which one of higher development maintains walking the road that is right for the internal, while simultaneously discerning what might be right according to the present external environment. When the internal scope and the external scope are radically different, to project what is internal upon what is external is to invite an exchange of force between both sides. However, if one is able to discern the way in which one might act in harmony with the external, one preserves the internal.

 

Thus one thing may be both right and wrong at the same time, from different perspectives.

 

I hope I have offered enough support to my statements.

 

I just need to mention that this approach has no real parallels in the tradition, and the texts clearly distinguish what is wrong and right without any references to "different people are different so any method is good". If you disagree, pls provide any clear classical quote to support it.

 

Indeed, incorrect methods are often noted as either "wrong" or "side-paths" to the true way.

 

However, the texts mainly point the direction to the way, without declaring any particular method to be "right." The necessary results are described, as are the principles by which these results are operating. The operation is specific, but I do not recall any methods being declared "correct" and "absolute". Rather in the tradition it would appear there are many schools, each with differing methods. Some texts to work with methods, such as The Secret of the Golden Flower, attributed to Lu. The methods found in here resonate with the principles in the classical texts, but do not declare themselves to be the only methods. If you believe I am incorrect please document in what way.

 

Edit: Found something in Thomas Cleary's introduction to Understanding Reality:

 

"Generally speaking, the most pervasive practical concern in Complete Reality Taoism appears to be the purification and deautomization of the mind so as to make it sensitive to reality; and it is well known that practitioners commonly practiced quiet sitting as an aid to accomplishing this. Nonetheless, Liu I-ming, who generally presents an interpretation of Understanding Reality characteristic of the "pure serenity" approach of the northern school of Complete Reality Taoism, which emphasized quiet sitting, still makes a point of repudiating even this as a magic key to enlightenment. There are indisputable indications that Liu did himself practice abstract trance in quiet sitting, but he did not preach it as a mechanical cure-all; rather, he emphasized more the use of everything in life as a means of self refinement, with abstract trance a means of finding the "medicines" of unconditioned spirit and energy, which subsequently have to be refined in the "furnace" of everyday life. There is no indication that he, or Chang Po-tuan for that matter, ever set up any sort of fixed program for students to follow."

 

Why do you think that principles you got have any relation to Dao? What do you think your understanding of Dao is correct? Have your teacher heard your opinions and agreed with them? And he didn't ask you why your thoughts are different from Dao concepts as they were described by HIS teachers? Any modern Neidan lineage would go to Lu, this way or another. There are some exceptions, but their world view is also very different from what you write... So how do you know that your own thoughts are correct?

 

Have I said they are correct? Rather I said I take the principles found in the classics - meaning they are not my principles, but principles of the classics - and test them against life all around and within me. I know whether I understand a principle based on how well I am able to identify it within the myriad changes of life. I don't force understanding, I employ sincerity and patience. Over time what was unclear may become clear... at this point I find I am starting to grasp a principle, and all of a sudden it tends to be all around me. When I consult the I Ching (reading several translations to remain objective), the principle shows up there. In class my Sifu will give a (rare) lecture upon this principle, without having spoken to me about it. I may be present in a circumstance where I find the principle directly presenting itself to me, without myself having directly invited it. At this point the principle begins to become a part of me, and I no longer need to read from a text - I have reached the root of the principle and can feel it in operation everywhere around me - I am one with it.

 

Even so, I wouldn't use the absolute terms of correct or incorrect. What I've gotten to the root of is within my own scope. It works for me and thus is "right" for me.

 

What I see as contention in the behavior of others is undoubtedly what is right for them in their present development. But when I saw that it doesn't seem to be allowing their message to come across, due to all the attacking and defending, I though perhaps I could share what I see in case it could help them to see it too, and thus help them deliver their message more effectively.

 

In the end what I was trying to offer became an attack upon what is right for them, and thus they attacked me in return. That is fine, and follows the principles of raising something up and having it brought down.

 

No lineage, no problem, but then it's not an opinion that have any weight in the tradition of Dao, if we discuss it in a traditional scientific way...

 

It is not a matter of not having a lineage, it is more a matter of engaging in public debate and using my lineage as credit. In discussion I speak from who I am alone, because I have no wish to pretend to speak for my Sifu. If my truth cannot be heard by ears open enough to listen to it, then why should I desire to force them open artificially? Are you speaking on behalf of WuLiuPai as a spokesperson with permission to speak on behalf of the school? I have not seen that explicitly stated, but if that is so it might be important to know.

 

 

Edit:

added quote from intro to Understanding Reality.

added quote from The Book of Balance and Harmony.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Daeluin

[GrandmasterP]

For those who can buy such words I say one thing for now: read about Huang Di and carefully read Lao Zi. Find hermetism and quietism there.

 

 

 

Is this an example of your quietism then? Guys, you teach what you don't do, so who can take you serious?

 

About young school I already told you: find older if this is a criteria for you.

 

Hermeticism

Eremitic

Quietism , accurately; is a Christian pietistic path.

Look up and learn should you choose to do so.

Hope that helps.

[Daeluin]

Let's think about because it's a very common concept.

 

What is harmony for people? Harmony is a flow with a stream without resisting it or force it or experience anything negative from it.

What is balance for people? It's a way to make Yin and Yang equal.

What flow people can follow naturally? The natural flow is a way to death. People born, grow up, socialize and die. That's all people can do without teaching. Some paths make this human way more comfortable and efficient (in mundane sense). It's good, and Lao Zi also gives advices for kings how to lead their kingdoms. But it obviously has no sense for internal work.

 

The way (Dao!) of people is to die. But Lao Zi says that his way is 'not a common way'.

 

His Great Dao is different. It opposes the natural flow of things, because it goes to immortality.

 

Can it be achieved by balancing the polarities? No. The end result is a pure Yang, it has no Yin. So it's not a balance as people understand it.

 

Yin and Yang are different in different contexts. It is my understanding, from texts, that by way of balancing Yin and Yang in one context, one is able to ultimately cultivate True Yang, which is in a completely different context.

 

Often balance takes effort, but that does not mean it does not flow. Inevitably the flowing leads one to challenges, often internal, whereby one must face these challenges. But even so one overcomes these obstacles by slowing down and looking for the ways to flow through without force. See Zhuangzi and how the butcher uses his knife.

 

Can people naturally follow Great Dao? No, they don't feel it and cannot do that without external help. That's why teacher is so important. Only by forcing yourself to follow his/her guidances you can set yourself on the Great Way. Only by great efforts you can reach the state of being effortless (wuwei), when your actions follow the Great Dao.

 

I agree, more or less. In our current societal paradigms people cultivate desire. But animals do not. No doubt a human living free of society would still be lead to the flow of death, but would likely have fewer desires and live more in balance with the Tao.

 

Yes, if we wish to go somewhere, it is helpful to have the guidance of one who has been there. I believe people can find their way with books and without a teacher, but it is so very easy to not get all the way, and to end up following a side-path. However as long as that side-path ends up taking them closer to the way, their next lifetime will be that much closer.

 

Then your Great Dao won't be a human Dao of "homo erectus", described in "Tao of piglet" books. Damn LOL, cannot write serious any more...

 

Just read carefully what teachers wrote, and anyone with a clear vision will be able to confirm these words.

 

Well, I've tried to say this is what I do, but I've been attacked because of it.

 

P.S. for Daeluin: I love to see people reactions. I love to see them waked up and ready to think sceptical about "everybody knows" cliché. I love when they don't repeat common words but think scientifically based on researches in texts. I'm not afraid about "karmic" bs from new-age stupid books.

 

Non-quietism and non-conformism are the gates to Great Dao. Tranquillity and tolerant approach are the gates to blindness... It's very easy to see in this thread, and I'm happy we have so nice conversation here. Love, peace, rock'n'roll.

 

So do you create a argumentative environment on purpose then, to stir things up? As long as you are doing it on purpose, and are clear about it. Application of hexgram 18. However, is this a path of cultivating virtue?

 

The Sage treats blindness by speaking to what the person needs to hear, rather than using principles or methods. Seems that if one just stirs things up indiscriminately, it could also lead to greater blindness. There's a quote that better illustrates this concept. I'll add it later if I can find it.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Daeluin

[GrandmasterP]

TTC 10...

"Can you cleanse your inner vision

until you see nothing but the light?

Can you love people and lead them

without imposing your will?"

 

Doesn't seem like these Russian dudes can.

Given time, they might.

You can always tell when someone is clutching at straws on here.

They start banging on about whose lineage is the best and why.

The lineaged Bums never do that, we know better.

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[opendao]

TTC 10...

"Can you love people and lead them

without imposing your will?"

 

Doesn't seem like these Russian dudes can.

 

Maybe Russian dudes read DDJ in Chinese and don't jump so quickly to conclusions?

 

There is nothing about "can you love people" in the text... There is no word "people" in the text (there is "guo" - kingdom). And nothing about "imposing your will" too. There is a word "wei" there, means "action"... Next time try another translation, maybe you will have more support for your fantasies.

 

Given time, they might.

You can always tell when someone is clutching at straws on here.

They start banging on about whose lineage is the best and why.

The lineaged Bums never do that, we know better.

 

Can you quote where I told "our lineage is better"? I told that absence of any lineage is unacceptable. For you it's the same maybe, but obviously the sense is different.

 

So again you see something prejudiced on your past experience (bad one?) and you have no support for your claims.

 

p.s. "lineaged Bum" LOL

Sense of humor that's all I respect in you. Sad you have no vision and laughing on things you don't know.

[opendao]

It is not a matter of not having a lineage, it is more a matter of engaging in public debate and using my lineage as credit. In discussion I speak from who I am alone, because I have no wish to pretend to speak for my Sifu. If my truth cannot be heard by ears open enough to listen to it, then why should I desire to force them open artificially? Are you speaking on behalf of WuLiuPai as a spokesperson with permission to speak on behalf of the school? I have not seen that explicitly stated, but if that is so it might be important to know.

 

I don't speak about it too often, but I'm following Yuxian Pai branch of Quanzhen Dao. I was initiated into Wu-Liu Pai as well. I'm not a "spokesperson" and even not an "official sales representative" :-) My words are based on the writings of my teacher and on the lineage texts, but I'm not trying to hide behind the lineage, and if there are any mistakes, they are mine for sure. It's just to explain the source of knowledge and pay credits to people who taught such concepts, because it's a lie to say that it's my work. And the lineage is the last argument, in my opinion, that's why I always insist on using texts to prove ideas, because that's what others can see and check, without being in any lineage.

 

When person has no lineage, his words are just his words, and they can be absolutely incorrect in the context of Dao teaching. When there is a lineage, we can see the source of words, and make some ideas about what results people can get if they take these words seriously. Also we can find explanations about terminology and so on. Your ideas are very different from what I've heard so far in the tradition, that's why I ask you about the lineage.

 

I will reply about the rest later. Thanks for spending time clarifying your posts.

Edited August 10, 2014 by opendao

[effilang]

no crap qigong is not congruent with neigong.

does qigong facilitate aspects of neigong? you'd best come up with a good explanation if you think it doesnt.

 

Edited August 10, 2014 by effilang

[GrandmasterP]

 

I don't speak about it too often, but I'm following Yuxian Pai branch of Quanzhen Dao. I was initiated into Wu-Liu Pai as well. I'm not a "spokesperson" and even not an "official sales representative" :-) My words are based on the writings of my teacher and on the lineage texts, but I'm not trying to hide behind the lineage, and if there are any mistakes, they are mine for sure. It's just to explain the source of knowledge and pay credits to people who taught such concepts, because it's a lie to say that it's my work. And the lineage is the last argument, in my opinion, that's why I always insist on using texts to prove ideas, because that's what others can see and check, without being in any lineage.

 

When person has no lineage, his words are just his words, and they can be absolutely incorrect in the context of Dao teaching. When there is a lineage, we can see the source of words, and make some ideas about what results people can get if they take these words seriously. Also we can find explanations about terminology and so on. Your ideas are very different from what I've heard so far in the tradition, that's why I ask you about the lineage.

 

I will reply about the rest later. Thanks for spending time clarifying your posts.

It's a wise man who acknowledges his mistakes.

You're doing that lineage no favours here buddy as I'm sure that your teachers would agree.

It simply is not done to compare apples with bananas and status claims are puerile.

I can see that your first language isn't English so maybe your abrasive tone is simply down to unfamiliarity with written niceties.

Eithervway I'll leave it to your conscience as to whether or not you believe anything positive can be accomplished for your school by your continued posts concerning it on this and other threads.

You are not an official spokesperson for the school or lineage and might best be advised to leave posting about it to those who are.

Not that any respectable teacher from any school would engage in such fripperies.

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[opendao]

It's a wise man who acknowledges his mistakes.

You're doing that lineage no favours here buddy as I'm sure that your teachers would agree.

It simply is not done to compare apples with bananas and status claims are puerile.

 

Where I compare apples and bananas? Where I compare statuses? Again just words?

 

I can see that your first language isn't English so maybe your abrasive tone is simply down to unfamiliarity with written niceties.

 

Re-read this thread from the beginning, maybe my words are too direct for sensitive people, but I didn't compare anything and didn't teach you how to live. I've highlighted that some popular methods don't bring Neidan results according to the text in the tradition. Many people here don't know about it and never heard about it. You've instantly started all this scam about "selling", "spamming", "avoiding the thread", "learn how to sell from Professor", "youngsters", "long Russian night" etc. Your tone was nice? Not insulting? C'man, admit it wasn't.

 

Not that any respectable teacher from any school would engage in such fripperies.

 

From you I constantly see a lot of accusations and insults, but not too many arguments.

 

I don't really understand your problem: you teach Qigong, you're happy about "well being" and mindfulness. The entire thread is about Neidan. So what bothers you so much? The tone of supremacy? But that's what you've invented from nothing... You're fighting from the beginning with something that exist only in your imagination.

 

You don't know (it's not an insult, just something you've never pay attention because it's far from you) that many self proclaimed Neidan schools insist on doing methods which lead to no results, which is not so bad, or to dangerous results which is very bad and happens very often. They fool people. They destroy fates. You just don't know about it so you don't understand the context why the text was written, against who and against who my words were addressed. I can say even more clear: there are many good Qigong schools. This texts and my words are NOT against them. There are a few schools, and they exist on TTB as well, who have no lineage, who teach Qigong-like exercises and different kind of meditation (often just invented), but who pretend to teach Neidan. You are not between them, as far as I know. So I don't see any reasons for you to fight here and basically support such scammers.

 

I see that your intentions might be nice, but you've started to attack without even clarifying against what you're fighting, so I treated your insulting approach as a support for "Neidan scammers". Maybe I was too much into conversations with them and has reacted too intense, but my excuse is that you provided no arguments for your words.

 

I hope my explanation can clarify the situation and save us some time to discuss more interesting topics. But I really appreciate that you've provided at least some arguments after all...

[Daeluin]

opendao, your attitude throughout this thread is what is attracting people like GMP to react. He's sensitive and feels that something isn't right and responds, as that is his nature.

 

This is largely why I wanted to see if you had any interest in reflecting on this.

 

It's kinda like a bully who picks a fight with another bully... but then a bunch of grade school boys walk by and get sucked in. Then one start crying and the bully says they should know better.

 

This is what I'm trying to stress with the "Walk Two Roads" business. If you understand the principle by which people are drawn to contend, similar to bugs to a fire, perhaps you can apply it more surgically instead of punching every which way indiscriminately. I think your methods hold power, but would serve you better if you applied them more selectively to your environment, as a lantern directs light.

 

Playing the bully is up to you, but I don't see it making you any friends. And maybe you don't care about that and want to blaze like a bonfire, helping to challenge the beliefs of any who are drawn to your light. But how long can you maintain that for?

[dawei]

~~~ ADMIN MOVING TO THE PIT ~~~

 

Folks can continue their position vs counter-position in the Pit.

[Brian]

Will we be tested?

Every day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[opendao]

references? For example, "Tao merges/unites with everything" - where you took that?

 

Hmm... that isn't something I said in the quote, and I don't recall phrasing something like this, although perhaps I did. Can you help me recall where please?

 

"The nature of Tao is to merge with everything else. Thus we see how the principles of Tao react to the influence of Confucianism and Ch'an Buddhism by absorbing these other Ways and applying Taoist principles to them, to show how the root of both is one."

 

just to clarify my point. I don't really agree with this statement. Dao didn't apply principles to other teachings. Daoist teachers just pointed out that the core principles of Confucianism and Buddhism are the same as Dao principles. But it is not because teachers wanted that, but because these both teachings had these principles initially. Other teachings without Dao principles were mentioned only in "false methods and minor schools" lists and weren't absorbed.

 

As for agreeing or disagreeing let's see. First of all, it is Lu asking a question and Zhongli Quan who answers. He basically says that the Great Tao is difficult for people to understand and realize because false methods are considered efficient and widely spread and lead people to discredit the teachings. Yes, I agree with this. I have never disagreed.

 

When you speak this way the meaning is clear. Thanks.

 

However, the texts mainly point the direction to the way, without declaring any particular method to be "right."

 

In my opinion, they don't declare any methods (exercises, practices) at all. They declare methodology. That's what I call "method".

 

The necessary results are described, as are the principles by which these results are operating. The operation is specific, but I do not recall any methods being declared "correct" and "absolute". Rather in the tradition it would appear there are many schools, each with differing methods.

 

The methodology is the same, that's why teachers speak about "same method". Exercises can vary of course (not too much afaik). And in external alchemy the method is the same, but instructions are very different from Neidan :-) But the methodology is described as "the only correct" usually, I don't recall any words about "many different correct methods".

 

Some texts to work with methods, such as The Secret of the Golden Flower, attributed to Lu. The methods found in here resonate with the principles in the classical texts, but do not declare themselves to be the only methods. If you believe I am incorrect please document in what way.

 

I don't see anything that resonates in GF with the classical texts. It's a 100% Neidan text, with some interesting details and wordings, but the overall process is the same.

 

Edit: Found something in Thomas Cleary's introduction to Understanding Reality:

 

"Generally speaking, the most pervasive practical concern in Complete Reality Taoism appears to be the purification and deautomization of the mind so as to make it sensitive to reality; and it is well known that practitioners commonly practiced quiet sitting as an aid to accomplishing this. Nonetheless, Liu I-ming, who generally presents an interpretation of Understanding Reality characteristic of the "pure serenity" approach of the northern school of Complete Reality Taoism, which emphasized quiet sitting, still makes a point of repudiating even this as a magic key to enlightenment. There are indisputable indications that Liu did himself practice abstract trance in quiet sitting, but he did not preach it as a mechanical cure-all; rather, he emphasized more the use of everything in life as a means of self refinement, with abstract trance a means of finding the "medicines" of unconditioned spirit and energy, which subsequently have to be refined in the "furnace" of everyday life. There is no indication that he, or Chang Po-tuan for that matter, ever set up any sort of fixed program for students to follow."

 

Uff, I don't know based on what Cleary came to such conclusion... "Purification of the mind" as "the most pervasive practical concern" for Zhan Boduan? "emphasized more the use of everything in life as a means of self refinement, with abstract trance a means of finding the "medicines" of unconditioned spirit and energy, which subsequently have to be refined in the "furnace" of everyday life" for Liu Yiming? I think it's something weird and cannot be supported by quotes.

[alchemist]

Ah, just had a good Weekend and now see that the topic was moved into the Pit. That's sad. Ok, it really became too personal.

BR

[Marblehead]

Every day.

 

Seems I failed the test and this thread got moved to the Pit anyhow.

 

At least I won't have to watch it anymore.

[Brian]

Seems I failed the test and this thread got moved to the Pit anyhow.

 

At least I won't have to watch it anymore.

Be optimistic about it -- maybe you passed and THAT'S why it got pitted...

 

 

 

[dawei]

Ah, just had a good Weekend and now see that the topic was moved into the Pit. That's sad. Ok, it really became too personal.

BR

 

Exactly. I think maybe it would of been better to share the entire text (even if a link), or attempt to translate the entire text for discussion (or just for reference).

 

These 'school battles' rarely leave a thread unaffected.

[LaoZiDao]

"The Daoists of today wear eguan [a tall cap] and fangpao [an ornate robe], are
proud and self-important, unwilling to humble themselves and lower their position.
They seek teachers one after another to instruct them in the Great Way. Only the blind
lead the blind quickly entering the divergent, crooked path. Who could know that the
methods of the Dao are three thousand six hundred in number? That there are twenty-four
Great Elixirs? All are sects. There is only this one path of the Golden Elixir, only this is a
correct path for cultivating one’s conduct. There is no path other than this by which one
can achieve become a transcendent, a buddha. Therefore during the
Lotus Sutrasermon the World-Esteemed One pointed out: “There is only
this one affair; the other two are false.”

The Perfected Yin said: “There are ninety-six kinds of exoteric paths, three thousand six hundred sects. Each and every one of them is illusory. It is only these [methods] of mine that are true.” The Perfected of the Cloudy Chamber [i.e., ZhongliQuan] said: “Thirty-six thousand schools of self-cu
ltivation. Everyone grasps a seedling. Who knows the aperture of the Mystic Pass of these
masters? It is not among the thirty-six thousand schools.”
Mystic Pass of the Great Dao is difficult to encounter but easy to complete; one
sees the effect功 slowly. Sects and inferior arts are easy to study but difficult to complete,
then see the proven effect quickly. Disciples who are greedy for wealth and like sex are frequently confused and do not awaken. Among them are [1] those who like the furnace fire, [2] those who like taking from elsewhere,[3] those who look upon the Summit Gate, [4] those who meditate
守on the navel, [5] those who exercise the eyes,[6] those who meditate on the Yintang印堂, [7] those who circularly rub their navels,[8] those who shake the Spinal Handle, [9] those who cup their testicles,[10] those who turn the pulley, [11] those who collect fighting qi on the Three Peaks,
[12]those who feed milk to the furnace,[13] those who close off the breath and circulate qi,[14] those who practice flexibility屈伸and stretching and guiding導引exercises,[15] the Return-Reversions of the Three [Elixir] Fields, [16] those who dually raise the Golden Well (?),[17] those who bear their backs to the sun and lay on the ice, [18] those who eat [numinous] mushrooms an
d ingest rhizomes, [19] those who receive qi and swallow saliva, [20] those who look inside and
visualize, [21] those who cease eating grains and cereals, [22] those who with stand cold and eat weeds [i.e. hunger], [23] those who transport the essence and carry the qi, [24] those who gaze at
the nose and regulate the breath, [25] those who leave their wives and enter the mountain,[26] those who fix the gaze and examine the body (?), [27] those who emulate a bear’s alignment and a bird’s flexibility, [28] those who imbibe auroral mists and consume qi, [29] those who sit for long periods without lying down, [30] those who hit themselves seven times over in order to refine away demons (?), [31] those who meditate fixedly without speaking, [32] those who fast and observe the precepts, cutting off the flavors, [33] those who travel in dreams to the realm of the transcendents, [34] those who silently consult the High God, [35] those who use esoteric incantations to drive away the evil and perverse, [36] those who see and hear ritualized recitations (?), [37] those who ingest their own seminal essence in order to return it to its origin, [38] those who press on the Caudal Funnel in order to close the Pass, [39] those who process (lian煉) urine to make Autumn Stone, [40] those who collect menses to make Red Lead, [41] those who bolster the yang using the placenta and process the purple waterwheel, [42]those who open the gate using black lead and cast the feminine and masculine sword, [43] those who close their eyes and obscure the mind and practice the Eight Lengths of Brocade, [44] those who vomit out the old and absorb the new [qi] and then practice the Six Sounds Qi, [45] those who face the wall and concentrate on subduing the dragon and taming the tiger, [46] those who make their bodies light and imagine they can ride a phoenix and harness a chi, [47] those who consume the essence and swallow the fluorescence in order to gather the sun and the moon, [48] those who walk the mainstays and tread on the dipper in order to peek into the asterisms, [49] those who rely on the sequence of the lines of the hexagrams and in the morning Tun 屯 hexagram and in the evening
Meng 蒙 hexagram, [50] those who give free play to the arts of yellow and white, burning water mallows and handling fire, [51] those who are desirous of long life without death, [52] those who
give free reign to their desire to ascend to heaven in broad daylight, [53] those who because of attachments do not [want to] transform [i.e., die], [54] those who circulate in emptiness (?) and never return, [55] those who strictly observe the precepts, meditation, and wisdom and hope
to be liberated, [56] those who dispel greed, anger, and foolishness and imagine themselves pure and quiescent, [57] those who while still alive want to transcend to the Western land, [58] those who [when they] die vow to ascend to paradise. Those confused and disordered like this [are so numerous that] it’s difficult to identify them all."

[Andrei]

It would be nice to put the source of your copy paste too, the text fragment is from here page 90:

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

 

And please read the whole text and see with your own eyes what is all about.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Andrei

[Andrei]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35956-neidan-the-journal-of-a-taoist-practicioner/

[opendao]

It would be nice to put the source of your copy paste too, the text fragment is from here page 90:

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

 

And please read the whole text and see with your own eyes what is all about.

 

Thanks for pointing that, but do you really disagree with "Who knows the aperture of the Mystic Pass of these masters? It is not among the thirty-six thousand schools.”? Or "There is only this one path of the Golden Elixir, only this is a correct path for cultivating one’s conduct. There is no path other than this by which one can achieve become a transcendent, a buddha."? I believe you don't.

 

Strange, but many people believe in what they think about one part of the text (where they think they can read about "meditation techniques" and go practice), but they argue with another part of the same text where "meditation techniques" are clearly named as not the methods of Golden Elixir Path... Maybe such people think they are clever then masters of the past...

 

LaoziDao, thanks for quoting, in my opinion it's a good wrap up for the ideas of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji posted in the beginning of the thread.

[opendao]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35956-neidan-the-journal-of-a-taoist-practicioner/

 

yes, that's exactly what I'm saying: they try to re-invent techniques from books and own "common sense". The result is sad:

"Only the blind lead the blind quickly entering the divergent, crooked path" (text above).

[LaoZiDao]

 

Thanks for pointing that, but do you really disagree with "Who knows the aperture of the Mystic Pass of these masters? It is not among the thirty-six thousand schools.? Or "There is only this one path of the Golden Elixir, only this is a correct path for cultivating ones conduct. There is no path other than this by which one can achieve become a transcendent, a buddha."? I believe you don't.

 

Strange, but many people believe in what they think about one part of the text (where they think they can read about "meditation techniques" and go practice), but they argue with another part of the same text where "meditation techniques" are clearly named as not the methods of Golden Elixir Path... Maybe such people think they are clever then masters of the past...

 

LaoziDao, thanks for quoting, in my opinion it's a good wrap up for the ideas of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji posted in the beginning of the thread.

 

No worries, Its great! I only just came across it, and I was surprised to see it in the translation with such scarily details! There is another nice part as well which I can share here with you later.

 

The rest of the translation is useless IMO. The gem is what I extracted.

[LaoZiDao]

Not a direct quote from the translation as I adjusted some of it for the purpose of a friend to read.

 

"The Great Dao produces Sky and Earth. Sky and Earth produce people and creatures. Sky, Earth, people, and creatures share one innate disposition and a common substance. In the sky there is yin and yang, on earth there is hard and soft.

Among creatures there is the male and female, among people man and woman. When there is yin and yang then there is the sun, the moon, when there is the

hard and the soft then there is the existence of mountains and rivers, grasses and trees; when there is the existence of the male and the female then there is viviparous, oviparous, water-born, and metamorphic [birth]; when there are men and women then there is coupling and the birth of children. The presence of a spouse causes lascivious desire to be aroused in the multitudes. Having given birth to an d raised children there is love and affection between husband and wife. Because of desire, love, and affection there are evil obstacles and afflictions. Having evil obstacles and afflictions then one has all bitter adversity,one has birth, old age, sickness, and death.

 

 

This is why the Most High fostered the virtue of concern for the living, opened the gate to salvation, composed the scripture and established rules, and instructed the people to revert to simplicity and return to the pure; be without desires so that one may see the subtleties, to be possessed of desires so that one may see its boundaries, summon the Dao so as to preserve quiescence; return to the root so as to restore ones vital force 命 (ming); early return, repeatedly accumulate 德 [virtue], deepen ones root so as to solidify ones stem; obtain the One, preserve the inner, empty the mind and fill the belly, soften the will and harden the bones, blunt the acuity, cut the knots, harmonize with [ones own] brilliance, focus the qi and call forth suppleness, embrace the one [until] theres no division, know the male, preserve the feminine, know the white, preserve the black, close the gate, block ones openings (dui兌), drape burlap on ones shoulders while harboring jade in ones bosom, obscurely and mysteriously, its essence is produced daily, elusive and indistinct, its essence doesnt leak out.

Produced every day, every day it grows. Because it doesnt leak out, it is no t exhausted. Jing essence can transform into qi, qi can transform into spirit, spirit can return to the Dao.

 

The Five Phases cannot steal it, yin and yang cannot control it. It becomes a single body with the Dao, transcending both sky and earth. This then is Laozis path of nameles pure quiescence."