Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[Daeluin]

I agree it is important to avoid being waylaid by false paths.

 

The point is to follow the true paths, the ones that lead to the Tao.

 

I hope others realize that just because they may achieve results using a certain path, does not make all other paths bad. What is important is that one aims truly and gets somewhere. If they don't get somewhere following one path they need to recognize this and change. Limiting one's perspective is what causes one to become lost.

 

While some preach on and on about false paths, others are getting closer to the way by following true paths. Some are limiting their perspective by studying what texts say about false paths, and attaching to this rather than being liberated by this.

 

It all comes down to projecting change upon others. Force doesn't work it closes people off. People change when trust is built, when they are open and accepting, not defensive. More to the point, it is clear to me that my words haven't been listened to, thus posting this is a false method simply because it is energy applied where it will not have anything close to the desired effect.

[Andrei]

Nice, so you can chop a text any way you want so that you retain only that what you understand or that serves your purpose and everything else you throw away, which means the whole context and philosophy that text was written.

[Marblehead]

Nice, so you can chop a text any way you want so that you retain only that what you understand or that serves your purpose and everything else you throw away, which means the whole context and philosophy that text was written.

Hehehe. I do that all the time. Remember my useless/useful concept?

[Taoist Texts]

Hehehe. I do that all the time. Remember my useless/useful concept?

MH you are not claiming to be the Grand Keeper of The Gate and Sole Purveyor of Neidan Authenticum Generalis...yet?

[Andrei]

Hehehe. I do that all the time. Remember my useless/useful concept?

 

yeah I understand, to retain only the useful, but there are some things that cannot be simplified, like from an aircraft you don't take only the propeller and throw away the rest of the aircraft because is the only thing that provides thrust.

Or you don't isolate the wheel of the car because it is the part that is moving and producing torque.

you also need oil, and conditioned/pressurized air, you need sparks and fuel, you need hydraulics for landing and braking, you need cargo bays to fill them with goods and so on.

And also you need lights and buttons and many other devices that helps you control the vehicle and keep it on the trajectory.

This is THE Way, to have a safe and smooth ride, not to go "only" to Rome or to buy "only" the Mercedes brand.

[opendao]

Nice, so you can chop a text any way you want so that you retain only that what you understand or that serves your purpose and everything else you throw away, which means the whole context and philosophy that text was written.

 

You are free to post your thoughts and support by the parts you like. If you want to make a throughout analysis of the text, including its philosophy or translation issues, you are more then welcome. If you see any context that don't support what LaoziDao has quoted, then it's much easier to mention that then to write comments a la Taoist Texts without any support. On any normal forum such things have to be prohibited, because it can't lead to any discussion.

 

And this is a rare case I agree with Marblehead: not all texts can be taken in full. Even in Zhuangzi there are parts that are obviously were written later and by other people, such parts contrast a lot and it's not very hard to see them. But so far I don't see such things in Xingming giuzhi, the text has its logic and the quotes by LaoziDao follow that logic. As well as "meditation" and "practical" sections

[Andrei]

I said already my thoughts in the post #36 and #38, which are supported by the text in the above link starting at page 173, ch 13 of that thesis. And you are supposed to "read" also the pictures not only the words. The words are for the left brain, the pictures are for the right brain. They were very clever these guys who wrote those books.

[opendao]

I said already my thoughts in the post #36 and #38, which are supported by the text in the above link starting at page 173, ch 13 of that thesis. And you are supposed to "read" also the pictures not only the words. The words are for the left brain, the pictures are for the right brain. They were very clever these guys who wrote those books.

 

Pictures are good, but the text is also important... I also replied to that idea about #36, but I can repeat in more details.

 

Your words:

 

 

The thing is if you read the text until the end you find that they used the same methods, or at least some of them like "sitting meditation" or "gathering Qi" or whatever, what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them.

Because everybody is different with a different energetic pattern, they use different methods, it is a matter of fine tuning and scheduling that differs from person to person. What they were criticizing is that someone preaching or teaching excesively and exclusively only one of the methods, like many people even nowadays do. So yes Da Dao means all of them but "depends on the practitioner".

 

I don't see anything that can support "depends on the practitioner" and "what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them" in the text. But I see this:

The Perfected Yin said: “There are ninety-six kinds of exoteric paths, three thousand six hundred sects. Each and every one of them is illusory. It is only these [methods] of mine that are true.”

And it's repeating in many variants. So no, there is only one order, and the practices are not those in the list. It doesn't matter if you use them together or not. They are marked as "illusory" in this Neidan text (and in other texts as well).

your words:

 

The thing is if you read the text until the end you find that they used the same methods, or at least some of them like "sitting meditation" or "gathering Qi" or whatever, what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them.

 

Let's look at the Sitting Meditation section, p175:

 

The Altar [of the Sixth Patriarch] Sūtra says: “When thoughts of the mind don’t arise, this is called ‘sitting,’ when your disposition doesn’t move, this is called ‘meditation’ (chan 禪).”

 

So it speaks about Chan meditation. Very good. Let's assume that in that section the "sitting meditation" is described with real instructions we can use to start practising. But very quickly we see that such instructions are really in conflict with the part, where "illusory" methods are, and it brings up a lot of questions:

'Sitting for a long period forget what you know'

vs

'those who sit for long periods without lying down'

When we have to stop sitting? When we have to start? Text speaks nothing about it.

'Lean over to examine a deep water: there is nothing hiding in the clear depths'

vs

'those who look inside and visualize'

Let's assume it means we don't have to visualize. But how?

'Darken the mind, nurture the qi, preserve the spirit'

vs

'those who face the wall and concentrate on subduing the dragon and taming the tiger'

If not by concentration then how, because the text insists on concentration:

"The mind of the utmost person is stored in the establishing life force orifice."

But "those who meditate 守on the navel" are practising an illusory method... And how to find "life force orifice" then, without meditating on the navel? And how to "establish" it by the way?

Many things we know about "meditation" from books or other sources has been listed in illusory methods:

those who transport the essence and carry the qi, [24]

those who gaze at the nose and regulate the breath, [25]

those who fix the gaze and examine the body (?),

those who face the wall and concentrate on subduing the dragon and taming the tiger

those who circulate in emptiness (?) and never return

those who strictly observe the precepts, meditation, and wisdom and hope to be liberated

So taken all that, we see that different parts of the text follow the same logic, and obviously it doesn't teach methods it describes as "illusory".

People see practices everywhere, but don't want to pay attention to the words about illusory methods and words about the fact that no methods were revealed in books. However, if we take a point of view of Neidan teachers, then we won't have such conflicts in the texts, everything will be logical, and, the most important, it will work as described in texts.

Edited August 14, 2014 by opendao

[Daeluin]

Do you want to kill chaos?

[LaoZiDao]

I hope others realize that just because they may achieve results using a certain path, does not make all other paths bad.

 

Results and goals differ among different paths, no one said other paths are bad, but the scriptures said (our teachers also said), and as did we ... that not all paths lead to Dao, not all paths are Neidan. If you want Neidan results you cannot achieve them with the false paths, false paths being paths that are not Neidan (even though some claim to be Neidan).

 

This is an important topic, there is a reasons why the Immortal Masters of the past wrote so much on this, don't you think?

 

If we go back millions of years, to another age where all people followed Dao...the first appearences of knowledge are closer to the Truth then later appearances. Gradually less and less people folloing the Dao (over a very long time span I am talking) people moving away from the Dao, false methods and paths being created, moving away from the original Dao and into the false Dao, peoples ego's growing etc etc.

 

Martial arts are created as the sole purpose, Qigong is created for the purpose of health and well being... where these are just merly a single leaf on the tree of the Dao, not the core of Dao, and not a path to return to the Dao with.

 

Today (including at least 3000 years ago) we have thousands of different styles of martial arts, qigong, meditation..etc its impossible to name them all.

 

Compare it to the ripple effect created in a water pond when you throw something in it, the further the waves get from the core, the weaker they are, finally stopping. 5000 years ago is relatively young.

 

Wrong translations, wrong interpretations, new additions, deletions will all mislead you. Therefore, people with the right fate, a true teacher, and with correct methods the their Yuanshen can join with the Dao of the Universe which will enable them to pick out the truths, and discard the false. It is also possible to read wrong translations, and also pick the small amount of truths from them.

 

This is why there is false methods, this is why it is an important topic, and this is why all true schools who still uphold the ancient Daoist traditions make strong points about it.

 

 

 

[Daeluin]

A path that leads to Tao is true. No paths lead to Tao. All paths lead to the Tao.

 

Sticking with any single set of methods is temporary.

[opendao]

A path that leads to Tao is true. No paths lead to Tao. All paths lead to the Tao.

 

And then there is no Tao :-\

 

Sticking with any single set of methods is temporary.

 

any false method is just a hole (yes, in Chaos) for your treasures to leak out. So I would rather stick to the ancient path, not to a modern wisdom...

[Daeluin]

And then there is no Tao :-\

 

The true Tao cannot be discussed with words, understood with concepts or practiced using methods.

 

any false method is just a hole (yes, in Chaos) for your treasures to leak out. So I would rather stick to the ancient path, not to a modern wisdom...

 

Neidan methods, principles, and the path they take one down are designed to lead truly, as much as possible. But only some people may be able to "hear" and "understand" this path as described by these words and applied by those teachers.

 

Don't you see? It's all different, everywhere you go. The energy changes every day, every hour, every moment in subtle ways. The principles of the I Ching help one learn to listen to these changes, and the vision of a master helps to guide students to adjust their Neidan work according to these changes, but the Student needs to ultimately learn to adapt to their changing circumstances on their own.

 

If someone only clings to written words, one does not learn to adapt to changing circumstances, and attempts to use HouTian Xing to cultivate Xian Tian Xing.

 

Neidan gives a wonderful framework, but if one does not understand how to adapt flexibly to one's situation, one cannot "Walk two paths." Then Neidan just becomes yet another inconsistent method.

[opendao]

The true Tao cannot be discussed with words, understood with concepts or practiced using methods.

 

But teachers discuss Dao, write about Dao, students understand and practice true Dao using specific, very hard defined, methods. And their success is without doubts. Your words contradict with facts, so I prefer facts.

 

Neidan methods, principles, and the path they take one down are designed to lead truly, as much as possible. But only some people may be able to "hear" and "understand" this path as described by these words and applied by those teachers.

 

Neidan methods are not really described with words. True teaching is done differently. So there is not too much possibilities for students to misunderstand words. Words and principles are learnt before and with other purposes.

 

Don't you see? It's all different, everywhere you go. The energy changes every day, every hour, every moment in subtle ways. The principles of the I Ching help one learn to listen to these changes, and the vision of a master helps to guide students to adjust their Neidan work according to these changes, but the Student needs to ultimately learn to adapt to their changing circumstances on their own.

 

Master adjusts students to changes, students (even very talented) have no mechanism to do that. It's an illusion to think somebody can adjust to changes in an appropriate way on your own. It would be too easy for these world.

 

If someone only clings to written words, one does not learn to adapt to changing circumstances, and attempts to use HouTian Xing to cultivate Xian Tian Xing.

 

You really don't read me... Did I say something about "clinging to written words" while practising? With alive Teacher, why do I need that? The words are needed to change the mind, to find a teacher, to explain the true direction in words to perspective (future) students... It's not about real method yet. But when Dao is in words, these words are exact and precise. Students have to obtain clearness about them first. Or the heart would be dirty, and no teaching could be possible.

 

Neidan gives a wonderful framework, but if one does not understand how to adapt flexibly to one's situation, one cannot "Walk two paths." Then Neidan just becomes yet another inconsistent method.

 

The method is adaptable, but not by students. This is basically the main secret of alchemy (how to make it adaptable).

[Daeluin]

But teachers discuss Dao, write about Dao, students understand and practice true Dao using specific, very hard defined, methods. And their success is without doubts. Your words contradict with facts, so I prefer facts.

 

Well, I'm just quoting the Tao Te Ching. What is discussed may lead the Tao, but the nature of words is ever changing. There are no facts that can survive in the form of words. The OP lists "analytical mind" and "formal maintaining of the teaching lineage" as inconsistent methods.

 

But I also see that from your perspective, Neidan methodology is a factual experience, expressed through precise words. I hope this continues to work for you and help you to evolve.

 

Neidan methods are not really described with words. True teaching is done differently. So there is not too much possibilities for students to misunderstand words. Words and principles are learnt before and with other purposes.

 

I agree. One should study principle, and then go beyond the mind and study what is real.

 

Master adjusts students to changes, students (even very talented) have no mechanism to do that. It's an illusion to think somebody can adjust to changes in an appropriate way on your own. It would be too easy for these world.

 

I wonder where the first master came from...

 

You really don't read me... Did I say something about "clinging to written words" while practising? With alive Teacher, why do I need that? The words are needed to change the mind, to find a teacher, to explain the true direction in words to perspective (future) students... It's not about real method yet. But when Dao is in words, these words are exact and precise. Students have to obtain clearness about them first. Or the heart would be dirty, and no teaching could be possible.

 

I hear that you do not practice using words, but use words to help bring the teachings of Neidan to students. I suppose I have been confused by how you appear to do battle with words, often attaching to a fixed perspective and using force so that others will hear you. But you did tell me you do this intentionally, and like seeing how others react, so perhaps this is part of your practice too.

 

I am taught that fighting enforces polarity, whether inside or outside, and to become whole one dissolves polarity.

 

But clearly we have different schools and masters, and I do not wish to advocate any practice that would go counter to the way you are going, as that would also create polarity.

 

Thus I would like to offer an apology for getting in your way in this thread. Even though I did not resonate with your methodology for teaching, in many instances I chose to battle with you. I feel I was reactive and judgmental, and regardless of whether or not I had good intentions, I largely was feeding polarity. I am sorry for this.

 

The method is adaptable, but not by students. This is basically the main secret of alchemy (how to make it adaptable).

 

I encourage you to follow the way that works for you.

[MooNiNite]

sitting meditation is extremely powerful. anyone who practices consistently will know that

Edited August 16, 2014 by MooNiNite

[LaoZiDao]

sitting meditation is extremely powerful. anyone who practices consistently will know that

What is the relevance of this statement?

[MooNiNite]

What is the relevance of this statement?

 

the OP

[LaoZiDao]

What is the relevance of this statement?

Hehe sure, you can argue with Zhongliquan, do you know who it is?

 

He taught Ludongbin, Ludongbin taught Wangchongyang...founder of Quanzhen.

 

But sure, you can argue against their words..

[opendao]

Well, I'm just quoting the Tao Te Ching. What is discussed may lead the Tao, but the nature of words is ever changing. There are no facts that can survive in the form of words. The OP lists "analytical mind" and "formal maintaining of the teaching lineage" as inconsistent methods.

 

The nature of words is changing, but sometimes written texts are all people have in their search. You speak about further steps, but I speak about the beginning.

 

I wonder where the first master came from...

 

ask your teacher, he has to know the answer. Or re-read Golden Flower.

 

I hear that you do not practice using words, but use words to help bring the teachings of Neidan to students. I suppose I have been confused by how you appear to do battle with words, often attaching to a fixed perspective and using force so that others will hear you. But you did tell me you do this intentionally, and like seeing how others react, so perhaps this is part of your practice too.

 

Here the words are all we have, so we use words, discuss words and cannot do anything without words in the Internet. There are many words around that are not true and have no relation to any traditional Neidan schools. From the ancient times people from the tradition have been giving another perspective, and support their words by texts as much as possible. This way other people can logically see what to follow and what to avoid. If they prefer emotions and battle, then it's ok, it's their choice. But those who have fate, they have to have a possibility to get out from this circle of doubts and false assumptions. Again, it's just a first step. But this is how the tradition has survived, you can get it from the text in OP by the way. In DDJ Lao Zi battles and criticizes false views and there are many other examples like that. It's a natural process, it has its own balance, and for adepts there is time when it's impossible to stay aside of that process.

 

I am taught that fighting enforces polarity, whether inside or outside, and to become whole one dissolves polarity.

 

Yes. But in the practice there is time to enforce polarities to make them evident, and there is time to make them one. Dragon and Tiger, that's all about it :-\ And also don't forget about Wenwu principle, it's a basis...

 

Thus I would like to offer an apology for getting in your way in this thread. Even though I did not resonate with your methodology for teaching, in many instances I chose to battle with you. I feel I was reactive and judgmental, and regardless of whether or not I had good intentions, I largely was feeding polarity. I am sorry for this.

 

no worries, thank you for your time.

[MooNiNite]

no point

Edited August 17, 2014 by MooNiNite

[LaoZiDao]

i'm not. he is just missunderstood

 

What part is misunderstood?

[damdao]

The method is adaptable, but not by students. This is basically the main secret of alchemy (how to make it adaptable).

 

I think that this statement sometimes could cause a little of resistance because the western paradigm is that of self-empowered individuals but the eastern has others methodologies.

For instance, in the Sufism the sheikh is seen as having all the power and knowledge, so the exercises are done under prescription because the sheikh knows better than the student his inner condition and shortcomings, if the student makes his own arrangements in the discipline, he could increase his problems.

Once an insider told me that one of the reasons because of that the disciple is not so much empowered is because the average person develops ambition and pride very early in the path and in order to prevent that, the school tries developing the spiritual aspects in the people before they can develop those mundane aspects. Only after that, the disciple can be empowered but in the meantime he must be "like a corpse" in the hands of the sheik.

I'm not saying that this is precisely the reason in neidan but it seems possible, besides, Sufism has much of alchemy in it.

[Daeluin]

opendao, would you be interested in starting a thread to discuss Wen and Wu?

[damdao]

opendao, would you be interested in starting a thread to discuss Wen and Wu?

 

Please, do it!