Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[Daeluin]

Wen and Wu and the artful application of Words

[Yae]

For those who can buy such words I say one thing for now: read about Huang Di and carefully read Lao Zi. Find hermetism and quietism there.

 

"The Master does nothing, yet everything is accomplished."

 

^Sounds like a hermit who meditates all the time, but maybe a hermit does too much by polarizing to that lifestyle and avoiding society, so maybe the middle way is the true non-doing.

 

[The Master] doesn't glitter like a jewel

but lets himself be shaped by the Tao,

as rugged and common as stone.

-39

 

^Doesn't try too hard to be "spiritual" (interpretation up for debate)

 

The Master gives himself up

to whatever the moment brings.

He knows that he is going to die,

and her has nothing left to hold on to:

no illusions in his mind,

no resistances in his body.

He doesn't think about his actions;

they flow from the core of his being.

He holds nothing back from life;

therefore he is ready for death,

as a man is ready for sleep

after a good day's work.

 

^Does whatever he does in the tides of the Tao, not necessarily quiet or loud.. Probably somewhere inbetween yeah?

 

"He who is in harmony with the Tao

is like a newborn child." ...

"It can scream its head off all day,

yet it never becomes hoarse,

so complete is its harmony."

 

Not quiet^ Never becomes hoarse huh... Not sure what to do with that but cool.

 

Okay this one sounds like a quiet hermit, at least in this translation:

 

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.

 

Close your mouth,

block off your senses,

blunt your sharpness,

untie your knots,

soften your glare,

settle your dust.

This is the primal identity.

 

"Therefore the Master says" ...

"I let go of religion,

and people become serene."

 

^ I stop trying so hard to be holy, and I become divine (I say divine because at another part it says "Returning to the source is serenity". Source = divinity, serenity = source).

 

"She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.

Straightforward, but supple.

Radiant, but easy on the eyes."

 

^

So. It sounds like this is all about going with the flow without judgment. If you feel loud be loud, you won't scar your good pious name. Well yes you will but it's ok.

 

(From a translation by S. Mitchell)

 

I still have no idea what this secret Neidan method could be about, since this translation came across to me as middle way/natural way, and I have no idea how that could lead to immortality. But I do kind of get how it could not be saying "sit and make yourself meditate, and continue to force yourself to do this until you honestly really want to which I can't say for sure will happen."

 

Buut isn't the method about making yourself do something for hours a day too?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Bluemind

[joeblast]

"She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.
Straightforward, but supple.
Radiant, but easy on the eyes."

 

 

this is describing the light at the niwan

[Yae]

She sounds awesome.

 

I was thinking about a point someone raised about the associated issues with applying the teachings of the Tao Te Ching in real life. The best example I know of of someone having clear major success with it is Masanobu Fukuoka, creator of Do-Nothing farming. He wrote a book called The One-Straw Revolution, all about doing as little as possible to the land and getting equal or more yield than his chemical-using neighbors, and more nutritious and better-tasting crops. No-till agriculture, allowing the microbial life to thrive in the soil and do the "tilling" for him, enriching the soil instead of just turning it over and draining its nutrients.

 

Nature would do almost everything for him. The more he learned, the less he did.

 

In Qigong (SFQ), I've heard the active exercises referred to as the "cultivation" of energy, and the sitting meditations that follow as the "harvesting" of qi.

 

So what would be the Do-Nothing Farming of energy practices?

 

Maybe cultivating the post-heaven qi is like addressing the symptoms and not the root of the issue? Of course normally qigong is considered to be the one at the root, and western medicine at the branches. But maybe legit Neidan is the true root?

[joeblast]

harvest....that's like talking about the playoffs in the second week of the season. yin or yang, cultivation is cultivation. how long does a seed ripen and grow, establish roots, absorb the sun and nutrients, before the crop is able to be harvested? the seed buried in the ground in the middle of the night is still cultivating, and it will be until fruit is picked.

 

as a beginner dont worry about post heaven qi. its enough just to get an experiential grasp of what qi even is. there are tens of thousands of methods, each designed to address certain things. create a toolbox from those methods, out of tools that will complete the jobs you want to complete. and dont separate neidan from qigong too much , because the body needs to be cultivated, and sometimes the difference is merely intent. of course all methods are to be dropped eventually...but at root everything is cultivation - its just all about assembling the right set of tools and utilizing the right tools at the right times to create beyond which would otherwise be possible.

[LaoZiDao]

"dont separate neidan from qigong too much"

Why? There is definite separation between Neidan (Xiantian - pre natal) and Qigong (Houtian - post natal).

 

Not too much? How do you not separate post and pre natal too much? There are scientific differences.

[Taoist Texts]

"dont separate neidan from qigong too much" Why? There is definite separation between Neidan (Xiantian - pre natal) and Qigong (Houtian - post natal).

I like this. So..whats the key diff?

[LaoZiDao]

I like this. So..whats the key diff?

 

www.thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/

[Taoist Texts]

Lao-zi, you mean that you do not know? Sorry to put you on the spot like this

[LaoZiDao]

Lao-zi, you mean that you do not know? Sorry to put you on the spot like this

 

This is why I dont come here often, people's attitude's.

 

It has been answered in the thread I provided a link for. This has been discussed many times by myself and a few others. You have put me in no "spot", if you want the information it is there, if you have further questions about prenatal and postnatal jingqishen, then you can ask.

 

Though I will probably not answer you after your smartass remarks, so you will have to rely on the OP to reply to you.

[Taoist Texts]

This is why I dont come here often, people's attitude's. It has been answered in the thread I provided a link for. This has been discussed many times by myself and a few others. You have put me in no "spot", if you want the information it is there, if you have further questions about prenatal and postnatal jingqishen, then you can ask.

Yes, yes thank you very very much. What is the difference between "prenatal and postnatal jingqishen"?

[LaoZiDao]

That is touched on in the link I gave you by opendao. No need to repeat it, read it tnere.

[Taoist Texts]

But I did. And you know, it makes no sense. Its just a bunch of claims with no rhyme or reason to it.

 

 

This is used as a prove that Building the Foundation phase has Qigong-like method, described as "Preserving the heart-mind". Again, knowing what this stage is about, by experiencing it directly, we are able to understand that"preserving the heart mind" is a result of the stage, but not a practice

This is just a bunch of meaningless words!

 

So could you please just answer the question, please? If you do know the answer, I mean.

[LaoZiDao]

A bunch of claims..right, its a common topic in Neidan books if you have ever read any. Here you are asking about difference between post and pre natal Jingqishen, though in the quote you put he is describing common misunderstandings of scriptures. He said "preserving the heart mind (性)" is a result of Neidan practice. "preserving the heart mind" is not a practice in Neidan (ie meditation). Its a result. Does this make sense? All Neidan texts talk about results, not methods. Its very common to see people understanding results as methods from relying on books and having no true Zhenren as a teacher.

 

As for jingqishen question, opendao gave an explanation of what post natal jingqishen is, see below. This is all related to the difference between Qigong and Neidan. Houtian and Xiantian, have you seen these before? Many Neidan texts talk about them, its a crucial thing to understand if you seek genuine neidan.

 

"Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense

Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food

Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness

 

Different Qigong sets use mind, imagination, positions, movements, breathing, to follow normal (for this world) Hou Tian process that make post-Heaven Jing, Qi, Shen healthy and powerful, but exhaust Pre-Heaven treasures."

 

Digest this then we can talk more on prenatal.

 

 

Also, loose the egotistical attitude, its doing you and no one else any favours.

[Taoist Texts]

Sure sure, me and my 'tude, my bad i am so very sorry.

 

Now lets stay on subject shall we?

 

 

"Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense
Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food
Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness

What are those pre-Heaven ones? E.g. pre-H. Shen. How is it different from post-H Shen?

Edited December 23, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Yae]

"What are those pre-Heaven ones? E.g. pre-H. Shen. How is it different from post-H Shen?"

 

Taoist Texts, I don't know how to answer that entirely but here's part of it:

 

"In Chinese tradition “the battery” is called MING 命, translated as life or destiny. (“How much stamina one has?”). So, this Ming - battery otherwise known as yuanqi 元氣 in traditional Chinese medicine, but in Taoism a different character is used 元炁 - the primordial qi*. It is getting spent. And when it ends, then a "kind" man with a scythe comes.

Ming is a tangible real substance and it can be felt, given a perfected sensitivity. Ming can be replenished only by mastering the since Taoist alchemy (just to emphasize that, according to the records of our school, some other traditions also posses such an essentially identical method, ). Note that to "Die" in Chinese is written emphatically: 失命 i.e. LOST MING."

 

So Ming is the primordial/pre-heaven qi.

 

"But apart from Ming there is still another substance. It is located in the chest, and any other spiritual schools strive to perfect it. All of them base their teachings on it. It is called XING 性, which is translated as nature, the nature of the heart. In Chinese it is also called 心性 XIN XING or 本性 BEN XING. All the many methods of meditations and praying, stopping the internal dialogue, etc appeal to this. The mechanism is simple in theory - it is necessary to reduce the vibrations, to remove the waves and gradually reach a full peace. If you will perfect at this even further, then you will go into a stable peace, the breath will go away, the heart will almost stop beating and A Yin spirit YINSHEN will be able to leave of the body. This is what actually called enlightenment in the late Chan Buddhism. In addition, this work may lead to the improvement of specific abilities. This spirit is something that in many cultures is called a ghost. This spirit is identical to the soul that leaves the body at death – which is also called YINSHEN."

 

- Golden Path (TB member)

 

Yeah Idk man. I'd also like clarification there.

Cause if ming is the qi then xing can't be the shen and the jing. But maybe they're one and the same to an extent since they all melt into each other. And I think ming would for sure be the pre-heaven Jing if anything.

 

Oh but of course the post-heaven energies are replenished by post-heaven things like food whereas the pre-heaven energies are only replenished by this secret method that's only taught in person. But at least it's available to the public now, should we seek it out.

[Taoist Texts]

Yeah Idk man. I'd also like clarification there.

Cause if ming is the qi then xing can't be the shen and the jing. But maybe they're one and the same to an extent since they all melt into each other. And I think ming would for sure be the pre-heaven Jing if anything.

Yes we are in a territory where words do not have meanings, they blurr and overlap, conflict and negate each other. May be we will stay stuck here, may be we will get to clarity. Who knows?

 

Oh but of course the post-heaven energies are replenished by post-heaven things like food whereas the pre-heaven energies are only replenished by this secret method that's only taught in person. But at least it's available to the public now, should we seek it out.

If it is available how is it secret? Why was it not available earlier? Is that method the whole alchemy or a part of it? If a part , then is it a method or just an exercise like a zillion others? What is it 'to replenish'? Etc. Again, lots of undefined words.

[Yae]

Someone heeelp we're stuuck. How do prenatal-Jing/Qi/Shen fit into Ming/Xing? And what are the definitions of prenatal Jing, Qi, and Shen? If they're definable outside of experience?

 

I think Shen means Spirit. But Mind and Spirit are not that closely associated. In Chinese. I think I should stop going by pseudo-fresh memories for now.

 

If it is available how is it secret? Why was it not available earlier? Is that method the whole alchemy or a part of it? If a part , then is it a method or just an exercise like a zillion others? What is it 'to replenish'? Etc. Again, lots of undefined words.

 

It's secret because you're not allowed to talk about it to those who don't know it, but it's not secret because you're allowed to learn it if you're physically present.

[Taoist Texts]

It's secret because you're not allowed to talk about it

and, its not allowed to talk about it....because?

 

[Yae]

Have you really not read any of this being discussed before by opendao and/or golden path or maybe Friend or... forgot the name of the other...

 

no dude why are you winking.

 

I can't explain it so well as an outsider but I think it's a matter of teaching it properly.

[Taoist Texts]

It's secret because you're not allowed to talk about it to those who don't know it, but it's not secret because you're allowed to learn it

 

Copyright .. grants the creator of an original work exclusive rights to its use and distribution, .., with the intention of enabling the creator to receive compensation

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

 

thats why

[dawei]

If we go back millions of years, to another age where all people followed Dao...the first appearences of knowledge are closer to the Truth then later appearances. Gradually less and less people folloing the Dao (over a very long time span I am talking) people moving away from the Dao, false methods and paths being created, moving away from the original Dao and into the false Dao, peoples ego's growing etc etc.

 

I was recently saying the exact same thing... but to say "millions of years" may be taking some liberty. But the ascension of man and yet 'moving away from the Dao' is my similar point. Our ascension is from simple to complex.... and our attempts to 'get back' are similarly, in time, simple to complex.

 

 

Martial arts are created as the sole purpose, Qigong is created for the purpose of health and well being... where these are just merly a single leaf on the tree of the Dao, not the core of Dao, and not a path to return to the Dao with.

 

Today (including at least 3000 years ago) we have thousands of different styles of martial arts, qigong, meditation..etc its impossible to name them all.

 

Yes... I agree... simple to complex.

 

Compare it to the ripple effect created in a water pond when you throw something in it, the further the waves get from the core, the weaker they are, finally stopping. 5000 years ago is relatively young.

 

I often use ripple effect for my points, so I get this.

 

Wrong translations, wrong interpretations, new additions, deletions will all mislead you. Therefore, people with the right fate, a true teacher, and with correct methods the their Yuanshen can join with the Dao of the Universe which will enable them to pick out the truths, and discard the false. It is also possible to read wrong translations, and also pick the small amount of truths from them.

 

This is why there is false methods, this is why it is an important topic, and this is why all true schools who still uphold the ancient Daoist traditions make strong points about it.

 

I think this is where we probably differ... If you have every been a teacher/master/instructor of... say 20 students, you will easily see the problem herein.

 

You can have a base instruction but that does not mean that it is truly applicable to all 20 students... in fact, the truest measure is 20 paths for 20 students. But 'schools' wish to force students to integrate to a mold, whether or not it is applicable. There is a moment of ancient rhetoric coming through without regard to the individual.

 

I'll just finish by saying: Who really cares if there are false teachings and teachers... Unless it is our mission to force-feed the masses such an admonish. This is simply a negative approach to development.

 

The positive approach to development is to encourage folks to find their destiny; to find their path and which method it syncs with.

 

What modern day seems to lose site of is that 5,000 years of energy exchange/practice/transmission is available to everyone but it depends on where each person is. If their destiny is not to do neigong, then they should do qigong; if their destiny is not to do qigong then maybe another energy practice like Tai Ji or Yoga, or another such practice; if not this, then maybe planet fitness or the local YMCA... and if not, the local pub is a great way to enjoy life... or just with your family... or alone.

 

So many paths, so little understanding into the application to the masses.

 

Face it: You're called to a level or your not. You'll never get beyond the level of your destiny as your previous lives have already defined what is next.

[Taoist Texts]

als our dear friend Lao-zi choose to drop out of discussion when faced with a simple question. Seems they dont like questions much, these Neidan folk.

[Yae]

als our dear friend Lao-zi choose to drop out of discussion when faced with a simple question. Seems they dont like questions much, these Neidan folk.

 

What is the point of speaking like this?

 

Eh ok I guess you're sort of just teasing.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Bluemind

[Taoist Texts]

 

• John 8:32 - Then you will know the truth, and the - Bible ...

  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:32

  Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”