Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[opendao]

How does one know whether they are on a side path? Or on the direct path?

 

Moving towards or away from the Tao?

 

it's not easy... First, you need a Teacher, second, you need to understand texts.

[opendao]

The author admits that the minor methods do have excellent health-enhancing and life-prolonging benefits.

 

Good joke...  "not knowing that these techniques are only minor ways of lengthening the life span. As for sitting like a withered tree and making the mind as still as cold ashes—these are but minor techniques of focusing the spirit. ", "these methods can make them immune only to common diseases".

 

Obviously there is nothing about "excellent". And the context is obviously sarcastic. In your wish to argue you miss obvious things:

 

The sages have always wanted to reveal the teachings of the Tao, but people throw away the opportunities to learn. In refusing to believe in the workings of Heaven and in valuing their wealth more than their life, they have doomed themselves to the realm of ghosts.

[munky]

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Edited June 4, 2015 by munky

[munky]

/

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[opendao]

The Zhouyi Cantong Qi, one of the earliest Neidan texts calls the lesser methods 下德, "lower virtue methods".

 

Not really. It speaks about "supreme and inferior virtue", but it makes no relation to minor methods or "side doors".

Moreover, we can read in this text:

 

[speaking about false methods]

The arts are so many -

for each thousand, there are ten thousand more.

Their tortuous routes run against the Yellow Emperor and the Old Master (Lao Zi)

 

and one more to quote:

 

From exhaustion your body daily grows weak:

you may be "vague and indistinct", but look like a fool.

 

That's absolutely the same meaning Zhungli Quan teaches us.

 

Basically they are methods of 有欲, having desire as chapter 1 of the DDJ puts it. They have clear goals and results but do not lead to the great Dao.

 

you mix 2 different concepts: "supreme and inferior virtue" and "side doors" / Great Dao. For some unknown reasons you think that "lower virtue" is the same as "side doors", but I doubt you can find any text that explain things this way... 

 

None of the methods of "side doors" can be "doing" for "inferior virtue" students.

 

However, they can prepare a person to cultivate the great Dao. Buddhists practice concentration before they practice inner sight, Vippassana. Daoists cultivate health, energy, concentration, etc before cultivating immortality. Medicine is a minor method, physical strengthening is a minor method, anything you do to achieve a small result is a minor method.

 

yep, but from Great Dao point of view it's just a waste of time, because if we need health or strength, then Neidan schools have additional methods, that work based on the principles of Neidan. Even preliminary practices in Neidan schools have nothing in common with "side doors and minor methods" in Zhongli Quan's list. That's hard to accept before you receive such practices, but I'm just clarifying why "side doors" = "false schools". By practising such methods, you're moving to the side, wasting your time and "exhausting your body" (see my quote from Cantong Qi), and there is no way it works as "doing" at the "inferior virtue" phase.

 

Dragon Gate Daoists these days who wish to cultivate Zhong Liquan's Lingbao Bifa first cultivate many minor methods. Together they are called 引仙法, attracting immortality methods.

 

Please, these self-proclaimed "Dragon Gate Daoists" cultivate nothing but "side door" methods, believing they attract anything serious... Good example for this topic though.

 

Minor methods move people away from the Dao only if people confuse them for the Great Dao. We agree, the ability to distinguish the Great Dao from the side doors is important. But If you have that ability, side doors pose no hazard. After all, the great Dao is 大而无外，小而无内 so great there is nothing beyond it, and so small that nothing separate exists within it. The side doors are also Dao.

 

No, they don't, or you need to accept that any thing in Zhongli Quan's list can be Dao or can lead to Dao.

 

For example, 采补, Eva Wong translated it as "gathering generative energy from a partner", giving it some sexual flavour... Is it Dao? Can it lead to Dao? Same about every item in the list: they are just false methods, that have absolutely no relation to Great Dao 大道. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

By what can you decide whether the teacher is a true teacher (immortal)? Does he demonstrate powers or yang shen?

 

I'm guessing you think your teacher is a true teacher, but how can you be sure that he hasn't followed a side path himself? Even with lineages and schools, if there was a true teacher once it doesn't always mean their students also attained the teacher's level.

 

Right. But if there is no lineage, then the chance somebody has learnt real teaching out of nowhere is very small. So the lineage has to be.

 

Then you need to do your homework, explore books, understand what Dao is and what is not (like the text in the beginning of this thread). Then you will know what to look for.

 

Nobody will show you miracles, yangshen etc. Even young appearance says nothing. So all we have is our logic and intuition. Logic is based on texts. Intuition is based on your innate and acquired qualities to see the truth. Only by this combination there is a chance you can find a real teacher.

 

Then you need to practice, and only with the experience you'll obtain real proofs, your own achievements. Before that it's natural (and good) to have doubts.

[munky]

So would you say you are sure that your teacher is a true teacher? You have evaluated your teacher based on your own understanding of Tao based on your exploration and intuition, abilities to see the truth which can be subjective. If you rely on these things and knowledge aren't you your own limitation in what you can perceive, and therefore what you look for in a teacher?

What I mean is how can you be so sure that what you've found and learnt is right, and that you didn't enter a side path in your understanding.And consequently find a teacher who's also on a side path, but resonated with your understanding? As you said external things including how a practice looks like means nothing.


What are these real proofs and achievements? The immortal fetus?

 There are many experiences and achievements, visions that people have, some just created by their own mind. I think you know people like to convince themselves they've got "it" or that what they experienced is a sign their well on their way to becoming an immortal or buddha. They like to, or subconsciously look for things to confirm their thinking and ideas, and ignore things that go against it or that might cause themselves to doubt.

 

[松永道]

 Not really. It speaks about "supreme and inferior virtue", but it makes no relation to minor methods or "side doors". 

 

This is the line from the Zhouyi Cantong Qi:

上德无为，不以察求，下德为之，其用不休。

Upper Virtue [is] Wuwei (without action), [one] needs not look [or] seek, Lower Virtue acts, it [takes] effort without resting.

Upper virtue is the way of spontaneous enlightenment. Lower virtue is the way of effort, 有为, the way of desire. But the goal of both is to return to emptiness 清静归虚 and achieve the Dao.

 

That tangent aside, do you really think the methods found in Neidan schools are somehow magic and immune from misuse? Do you think Taijiquan, Yoga, Zen Meditation, pranayama, and other methods that cure disease, promote longevity and stillness of mind can only lead people away from the Great Dao because they aren't part of a special Neidan lineage? Were that true the Great Dao would be oh-so-very small.

 

The fact is, methods are like medicines. Used right, they bring the body into better balance, used wrong they are poison. My medicine may be my brother's poison. And the same medicine that cured me last year may be my poison today. No medicine or practice is a panacea.

 

Any school that wants you to think their way is the only way are either trying to fool you or they are fooling themselves.

 

[Taoist Texts]

So, on one hand we have minor methods which prolong life and cure disease. They are said to be bad.

On the other hand we have great Tao (neidan?) which is said to be good.

 

And yet...

 

 

Lu asked: "What is the Great Tao?"
Chung said:"The Great Tao has no form and no name. It asks no questions and gives no answers. It is so large that it has no boundaries; it is so small that nothing can fit inside it. You cannot follow it even if you have heard about it; you cannot attain it even if you tried to practice it."

 

(Zhong Li Chuan Dao Ji tr. E Wong) 吕曰：“所谓大道者，何也？”

 

钟曰：“大道无形、无名、无问、无应其大无外，其小无内。莫可得而知也，莫可得而行也！” 　　  

 

 

"You cannot follow it even if you have heard about it; you cannot attain it even if you tried to practice it."

 

Thats what i call honesty in advertising!

 

　  

[松永道]

What I mean is how can you be so sure that what you've found and learnt is right, and that you didn't enter a side path in your understanding.And consequently find a teacher who's also on a side path, but resonated with your understanding? As you said external things including how a practice looks like means nothing.

 

 

This is wandering off the topic but I think you're asking from a sincere place and deserve a sincere response.

 

It basically comes down to personal integrity. The more you have, the more you'll see people for who they are. Everyone has flaws. No one has all the answers, not for themselves and especially not for you. Nevertheless, there are real cultivators out there. And spending time with them is valuable beyond words.

 

My advice is to work with teachers you deeply respect and admire. Not for their words or abilities but for their character. Virtue isn't taught, it's transmitted over time together.

[Ormus]

Dear all,

 

document about which we are speaking now date from X century which is time of consolidation of Nei Dan teachings in the South in Nanzong Pai school of Immortal Master Zhang Boduan.Immortal Masters Zhongli Quan and Lu Dongbin are central figures not only in Zhong Pai but to all Nei Dan school and particulary to Longmen Pai which is Quanzhen.

 

What is strange is that early Quanzhen have much diferent understanding of self cultivation and some say that they all didnt worked Nei Dan as we know it today and this is well explaned with data and sources in the work of Lowell Skar in his excelent work on Jindan Dao history.

 

How strange is that big reformer of Longmen Pai Master Wang Chongyang totaly refused Nei Dan and Wai Dan and forced his 3 stages Precepts modeled under influence of Chan Buddhism and all this in the time of actualy formation of main Orthodox line of Longmen Pai in Baiyun Guan in Beijing.Some say that this is actualy formation of Longem Pai as organised school in XVI century.Normaly there exsisted older branches like on Hua Shan,Qingchen Shan,Wudang Shan(which later evolved in Wu Liu Pai branch) and the most elitistic on Jingai Shan.

 

To me the most interesting is line from Jingai Shan as there is main altar and temple devoted to Lu Dongbin as he proclaim himself.There Lu transsmited many books and instructions by way of Spirit medium or by his direct manifestation.This is like in Spiritual cults dedicated to him who recive in this way his new works.

 

Jingai branch practice real Nei Dan and have Tantra initiations which monks included from the past when they recived transsmision from Yedaposhe.

 

Why I speak this?Well because of Immortal Master Lu transmited book with instructions about Wai Dan to Masters on Jingai Shan.How then we can see this and in relation to text we are speaking from the first page?

 

All I mentioned here can be found in excelent work of Monica Esposito and her work about history of Longmen Pai.There are so many suprising informations and fact supported by original sources on Chinese from the archives of the Longemn Pai themselfs,facts about real history of Quanzhen in general and much later formation of Longmen Pai and interesting details about Nei Dan and mixing with elements from Buddhism,Hindu Tantra.....etc.

 

 

I wish you all the best.

 

 

Ormus

[opendao]

This is the line from the Zhouyi Cantong Qi:

上德无为，不以察求，下德为之，其用不休。

Upper Virtue [is] Wuwei (without action), [one] needs not look [or] seek, Lower Virtue acts, it [takes] effort without resting.

 

And there is nothing here about "side doors", so see my previous post about mixing Low/High De and "side doors"/dadao

 

That tangent aside, do you really think the methods found in Neidan schools are somehow magic and immune from misuse? Do you think Taijiquan, Yoga, Zen Meditation, pranayama, and other methods that cure disease, promote longevity and stillness of mind can only lead people away from the Great Dao because they aren't part of a special Neidan lineage?

 

Strange conclusion... It's not about any lineage, it's about the simple fact that "side doors" have no systematic knowledge about xiantian Qi. So they cannot lead people to Dao, they don't know the "mechanism".

 

It's not about misuse: even if you practice side methods absolutely correct, you're not going toward the Great Dao.

 

Were that true the Great Dao would be oh-so-very small.

 

and it is great not because of its size )))

 

The fact is, methods are like medicines. Used right, they bring the body into better balance, used wrong they are poison. My medicine may be my brother's poison. And the same medicine that cured me last year may be my poison today. No medicine or practice is a panacea.

 

Any school that wants you to think their way is the only way are either trying to fool you or they are fooling themselves.

 

I prefer to believe in schools that produce xian-immortals. This is the only fact that can say they are true or not...

 

Though it's possible to get harm from any method, it doesn't prove your idea that we can use any method and believe we're going in a right direction. And here the discussion is about a very simple thing: that most of the methods, taught nowadays, are in the list of false methods by such masters as Zhongli Quan, Wei Boyang or Zhang Boduan.

 

You think they are wrong, and somehow Taijiquan can be beneficial to attain Dao. But how many Taijiquan masters, except Zhang Sanfeng and his seldom students, have reached immortality of any kind? Same with "sitting and forgetting", Chan after 6th patriarch etc.

 

Again, it doesn't mean that Taijiquan is "bad". It is good for fighting (hard to believe, but such masters still exist), some times it can improve health and so on. But to attain Dao it gives nothing practically, moreover, it "moves what has to be in quietude". So in Neidan schools such arts are learnt AFTER, not before as you suggest. And they are not a requirement at all. That's the difference.

 

The method of Great Dao has the same principle in different schools of Neidan, Waidan, pair cultivation, if it exists then the method is true, if it's lost then it's false. Forms can be different, and sure for different stages there are different exercises. But there are thousands of side schools that give nothing in attaining the Great Dao:

 

The arts are so many -

for each thousand, there are ten thousand more.

Their tortuous routes run against the Yellow Emperor and the Old Master (Lao Zi)

[opendao]

"You cannot follow it even if you have heard about it; you cannot attain it even if you tried to practice it."

 

Thats what i call honesty in advertising!

 

“大道无形、无名、无问、无应其大无外，其小无内。莫可得而知也，莫可得而行也！” 

 

You rely on a mistranslation made by Eva Wong, but the phrase is so simple, and it has nothing about "practice" or "attaining the Dao". She doesn't even care that the sense of such translated phrase contradicts the meaning of the entire text... 

 

The phrase just claims that Dao has no inside boundaries (无内), nor outside (无外). So there is no way to reach-得 these boundaries by knowledge-知, inside, or by physical walking-行, outside.

 

So the sense you're having so much fun, is just your's, and Madame Wong's, of course, imagination.

 

You wrote:

 

Luckily that will set you back only US5.36   This text have been masterfully translated years ago by a real Chinese and a real Taoist. Her name is Wong. Madam Eva Wong.

 

are you serious? Usually she just kicks off everything she can't translate. You've asked about "Symptoms disappearance", but she just didn't translate that!

 

her variant, try to find 绝迹 here, it's supposed to be between "drawing in the testicles" and "studying the scriptures":

 

Abstaining from meat, abstaining from grains, absorbing the vapors of fog and dew, swallowing saliva, living in isolation, meditating in ch'an (zen) stillness, maintaining silence, visualizing the deities, gathering yin energy, regulating breath, being celibate, stopping thinking, abstaining from physical labor, opening the cavity on top of the head, drawing in the testicles, studying the scriptures, tempering the body, slowing the breath, massaging, circulating the breath, gathering generative energy from a partner, helping the poor, cultivating the self, doing charitable works, living in the mountains, taming the mind, facing the wall, chanting the scriptures, absorbing the essences of the sun and the moon, and inhaling the vapors of the sky and the earth—these are just some of the techniques that people think will help them create the cinnabar pill of immortality. 

 

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Why I speak this?Well because of Immortal Master Lu transmited book with instructions about Wai Dan to Masters on Jingai Shan.How then we can see this and in relation to text we are speaking from the first page?

 

 

well this text says that waidan is false. period.

[opendao]

So would you say you are sure that your teacher is a true teacher? You have evaluated your teacher based on your own understanding of Tao based on your exploration and intuition, abilities to see the truth which can be subjective. If you rely on these things and knowledge aren't you your own limitation in what you can perceive, and therefore what you look for in a teacher?

 

sure it's subjective and based on the person's level until you find a teacher and start practising. Then, when you see what he has already achieved, you trust his opinion about your level, and it becomes less subjective. It just takes time, many students have no patience for that.

 

What I mean is how can you be so sure that what you've found and learnt is right, and that you didn't enter a side path in your understanding.And consequently find a teacher who's also on a side path, but resonated with your understanding? As you said external things including how a practice looks like means nothing.

 

I wrote also about personal achievements. This is an important criteria. If you get yuan jing restored, and it's exactly as your teacher says and books describe, then probably everything is good. When you reach next stages, then it'll be more obvious and objective.

 

What are these real proofs and achievements? The immortal fetus?

 

there are a lot before that, starting with the preliminary exercises, how they affect the health and emotions. It's also unusual, and can be seen from outside.

 

Usually people just don't know what to look for. They are full of illusions about "flying magicians", but how do they know how a real Neidan master looks like, if there are just scares descriptions in books? No photos, no videos )) Even translations give very little, because they are made by people without any direct understanding.

 

But it has been like that all the time, almost all masters have mentioned difficulties in searching their teachers.

 

 There are many experiences and achievements, visions that people have, some just created by their own mind. I think you know people like to convince themselves they've got "it" or that what they experienced is a sign their well on their way to becoming an immortal or buddha. They like to, or subconsciously look for things to confirm their thinking and ideas, and ignore things that go against it or that might cause themselves to doubt.

 

yes, that's why in Neidan masters speak little about experiences, but they praise achievements. Experiences are temporary, achievements are something people have for a while, they are solid, objective and very unusual.

[opendao]

Why I speak this?Well because of Immortal Master Lu transmited book with instructions about Wai Dan to Masters on Jingai Shan.How then we can see this and in relation to text we are speaking from the first page?

 

the text from the first page speaks nothing about Waidan. You can check the Chinese characters and understand what exactly was translated as "External Alchemy". About Waidan, as I already mentioned, there are a few paragraphs in the whole text. Try to find them, it should be even in the Wong's translation.

 

Everything else you wrote about schools needs many years to prove, by visiting various masters, comparing texts, practising various methods. Waidan still exists, but it's really rare.

[Ormus]

Dear Opendao,

 

info I write is easy to check with Chinese source books mentioned in detail in those studys.

 

My point as Wai Dan initiate is that there is no contradiction beetwen Nei Dan and Wai Dan but that they support each other and are clues for each other.And I find so many clues that Nei Dan Masters write also Wai Dan books.Alchemy is one and work with the same matter.For me it is clear when I read Wu Liu Pai info that they know real Alchemy even if they speak about Nei Dan.

 

The same Immortal Masters transmite both ways by way of spirit writing and this is what is interesting because today many among Orthodox Daoist dont like spirit writing methods and mediumship as false path and way of Shamanism.But how to question when Masters like Lu Dongbin and Zhang Boduan manifest and dicate new book?

 

Particulary is interesting history of Secret of the Golden Flower by Lu Dongbin.There are few diferent versions and first one which is original is transmited in 2 occasions by Lu Dongbin by way of mediumship and later Longmen Pai change some parts and made their version.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

[Ormus]

Dear Opendao,

 

info I write is easy to check with Chinese source books mentioned in detail in those studys.

 

My point as Wai Dan initiate is that there is no contradiction beetwen Nei Dan and Wai Dan but that they support each other and are clues for each other.And I find so many clues that Nei Dan Masters write also Wai Dan books.Alchemy is one and work with the same matter.For me it is clear when I read Wu Liu Pai info that they know real Alchemy even if they speak about Nei Dan.

 

The same Immortal Masters transmite both ways by way of spirit writing and this is what is interesting because today many among Orthodox Daoist dont like spirit writing methods and mediumship as false path and way of Shamanism.But how to question when Masters like Lu Dongbin and Zhang Boduan manifest and dicate new book?

 

Particulary is interesting history of Secret of the Golden Flower by Lu Dongbin.There are few diferent versions and first one which is original is transmited in 2 occasions by Lu Dongbin by way of mediumship and later Longmen Pai change some parts and made their version.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

[Taoist Texts]

The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue.

 

The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'.

 

Yet the very same text the list was culled from gives lie to this claim, truthfully explaining that

 

A. minor methods cure diseases and prolong life

B. neidan does not work for an absolute majority of the practitioners.

 

One paragraph above The List:

 

Lu said:

"Ever since the beginning of time, people have learned about the Tao, understood its principles, and attained it. After
they attained the Tao, they left the dust of the world and went to the Peng-Iai Islands. Then they ascended to the celestial realm, entered the realm of celestial yang, and eventually reached the Three Pure Realms. Honored teacher, why do you say that although people have heard of the Tao, they could not attain it, and although people have tried to practice its teachings, they could not reach it? Is it because the Tao wants to hide from us?"

Chung said: "The Tao docs not hide from us deliberately. People couldn't attain the Tao because they did not trust its teachings, and those who trusted the teachings did not practice diligently. Some practiced it for one day and abandoned it the next day. Some remembered the principles in the beginning but forgot them later. Some started their training with enthusiasm but soon lost their interest. This is what I meant by the Tao being hard to attain even if you knew about it and tried to practice it."

[LaoZiDao]

The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue.

 

The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'.

 

Yet the very same text the list was culled from gives lie to this claim, truthfully explaining that

 

A. minor methods cure diseases and prolong life

B. neidan does not work for an absolute majority of the practitioners.

 

One paragraph above The List:

 

Lu said:

"Ever since the beginning of time, people have learned about the Tao, understood its principles, and attained it. After

they attained the Tao, they left the dust of the world and went to the Peng-Iai Islands. Then they ascended to the celestial realm, entered the realm of celestial yang, and eventually reached the Three Pure Realms. Honored teacher, why do you say that although people have heard of the Tao, they could not attain it, and although people have tried to practice its teachings, they could not reach it? Is it because the Tao wants to hide from us?"

 

Chung said: "The Tao docs not hide from us deliberately. People couldn't attain the Tao because they did not trust its teachings, and those who trusted the teachings did not practice diligently. Some practiced it for one day and abandoned it the next day. Some remembered the principles in the beginning but forgot them later. Some started their training with enthusiasm but soon lost their interest. This is what I meant by the Tao being hard to attain even if you knew about it and tried to practice it."

 

         

 

"The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue."

 

These arguments / attacks you always come back to are getting old and overused now...

 

"The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'."

 

This was never really said like this, you try really hard to not see what is written I guess. Taiji, Baugua, Xingyi is great, for fighting, not for Neidan, who said it is bad? 'Meditation' has its uses for medical purposes, not for Neidan.

 

Sure, in the perspective from an Xian, anything that is AGAINST the way to Great Dao yes it useless. But for example, for you maybe some Taiji or something else is not absolutely useless for you, for now.

 

Whats your point you are making with your quoted text in bold?

 

Yes, people themselves move themselves away from the Dao......

 

 

 

[松永道]

Again, it doesn't mean that Taijiquan is "bad". It is good for fighting (hard to believe, but such masters still exist), some times it can improve health and so on. But to attain Dao it gives nothing practically, moreover, it "moves what has to be in quietude". So in Neidan schools such arts are learnt AFTER, not before as you suggest. And they are not a requirement at all. That's the difference.

 

Perhaps we'll just have to disagree.

 

The school I know thinks Taijiquan and some other Waigong methods are a great avenue into Neidan. A 途径 in their words. I've observed other schools also use Waigong methods. Sitting for long hours is hard if you don't have a strong back. And progress is much slower if your meridians aren't open, moving and full.

 

Now, if you'll indulge an analogy, a few months ago I treated a kid for sinus congestion. When his sinuses cleared up his grades went up. Does that mean my treatment made him a better student? Yes and no. Sinus congestion made his mind foggy and distracted. My treatment resolved his obstacle. Nevertheless, my treatment has no inherent ability to improve a student's grades.

 

What does that have to do with the Great Dao and minor methods? Minor methods solve mundane problems. Mundane problems can be major obstacles.

 

What I'm saying is if you understand yourself and cultivation principles, "side doors" become just another aspect of Dao. Every Neidan school at some point adopted outside practices and worked them into a coherent system. As your Dao understanding grows, you can see other practices, understand their principles and assimilate them for your own progress. Neidan is based on Yijing theory. To get clannish or rigid in cultivation utterly misses the point.

 

I'm fully aware that my reading of the original Chinese text is biased by my own education, values and experience. But I still think that Zhong Liquan is saying that the problem with these minor methods isn't that they lead away from the Dao but that people mistakenly believe that they can lead to the Great Dao all on their own.

 

You say

It's not about any lineage, it's about the simple fact that "side doors" have no systematic knowledge about xiantian Qi. So they cannot lead people to Dao, they don't know the "mechanism".

 

That's exactly my point. If you have that knowledge, know the mechanism, know yourself and know what you need, you can use minor methods to suit your purpose.

 

They are minor precisely because they aren't systematized into a greater whole.

[opendao]

What does that have to do with the Great Dao and minor methods? Minor methods solve mundane problems. Mundane problems can be major obstacles.

 

I understand your point, but what you name as "minor methods" has no real relation to what the text speaks about... There is a very important note in the text, what is the result of the false methods: 

 

"Under no circumstances wanted to cultivate and fulfil the Great Dao, outshone their contemporaries, only cared about the happiness and avoidance of failures, did not believe in innermost secrets and only multiplied the wealth and neglected their fate, thus heading to turn into devils (ghost)".

 

The author describes how the Dao was lost for many people, and what forms such deviation can have. He speaks nothing about any benefits, it's not a topic of his speech. Also the methods listed are not even in results. Some can cure illnesses, other can do nothing. It doesn't really matter.

 

What is important is the key we receive from the text: how to distinguish correct method of the Great Dao from its imitations. You're speaking about mundane arts, which are not the scope of this text fragment.

[opendao]

The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue.

 

The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'.

 

you skipped, as usual, one important detail: false methods are bad because their practitioners can't attain Dao, Neidan is good, because its methods give people a chance to attain Dao. With the false methods there is no chance, even if you cured all your maladies.

 

Yet the very same text the list was culled from gives lie to this claim, truthfully explaining that

 

A. minor methods cure diseases and prolong life

 

 

probably sometimes, not for all and not all methods....

 

B. neidan does not work for an absolute majority of the practitioners.

 

no

 

One paragraph above The List:

 

Lu said:

"Ever since the beginning of time, people have learned about the Tao, understood its principles, and attained it. After

they attained the Tao, they left the dust of the world and went to the Peng-Iai Islands. Then they ascended to the celestial realm, entered the realm of celestial yang, and eventually reached the Three Pure Realms. Honored teacher, why do you say that although people have heard of the Tao, they could not attain it, and although people have tried to practice its teachings, they could not reach it? Is it because the Tao wants to hide from us?"

 

Chung said: "The Tao docs not hide from us deliberately. People couldn't attain the Tao because they did not trust its teachings, and those who trusted the teachings did not practice diligently. Some practiced it for one day and abandoned it the next day. Some remembered the principles in the beginning but forgot them later. Some started their training with enthusiasm but soon lost their interest. This is what I meant by the Tao being hard to attain even if you knew about it and tried to practice it."

 

Some confused individuals really think that there are some methods that you can hear about once (or even better - read about it in a comic book), then don't practice at all and get a result... And they make a conclusion about "absolute majority of the practitioners" based on that? Funny.

 

The "absolute majority" usually don't practice at all. Even if they know the method, they think it's enough, and they are already immortals. Or they receive the method, but then change it for some stupid reasons.

 

That's why the success rate is low, not because "Neidan doesn't work". It works fine for those who diligently practice right methods.

 

Others try to invent some "pseudo internal alchemy" which has no relation to Neidan and Dao teaching, or try to find other excuses to convince they are not fooling themselves. Miserable, shallow and secular approach. But obviously, nothing new.

[opendao]

info I write is easy to check with Chinese source books mentioned in detail in those studys.

 

I wish it were so easy... How any text can confirm the following sentences from your previous post?

 

> Immortal Master Lu transmited book with instructions about Wai Dan to Masters on Jingai Shan

> Jingai branch practice real Nei Dan

 

so how to check if it's a real Neidan / Waidan or not, sitting in front of the computer or in a library? I believe anybody needs to travel, be accepted as a student, learn everything from inside, get some practical results then some conclusions can be made... Has any scholar did that? What he/she did achieve so we can trust his or her opinion? That's are questions we need to address if we want to find any truth, in my opinion. Textual and historical researches are useful, but only as a first step.

 

My point as Wai Dan initiate is that there is no contradiction beetwen Nei Dan and Wai Dan but that they support each other and are clues for each other.

 

Right, there is no contradiction. And they live separately without any problems as well. Students don't need to know Neidan to master Waidan, and Waidan knowledge is not needed to master Neidan. It can help, but let's be realistic: it's very rare people have a fate to learn both.

[Ormus]

Dear Opendao,

 

Monica Esposito is not just historian she was initiated in Longmen Pai in China.Her work is not just reading the books as she describe some topics which show she was initiate and insider.Books she quote are writen by famous Masters and come from arhives of the school.We can doubt all this but then we can doubt all.I dont say that she is 1000% accurate as I am not initiate of Longmen Pai nor I have chance to read all this original books from archives.Infor about Lu Dongbin his alter and books he transsmited are known facts outside of Jingai Shan.

 

Regarding your comments about relationship of Wai Dan and Nei Dan I agree.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus