Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[LaoZiDao]

Xing = Yuan Shen

Ming = Yuanjingqi

 

There is only really 2, can be called the 2 qi 二炁 or 2 fires. Once Yuanshen (nothing to do with mind) joins with Yuanqi that is the embyro of elixir created. Ie Dixian 地仙.

 

That is the meaning of joining Xing and Ming. To join yuanshen and yuanqi.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Ormus]

Dear all,

 

this is great tread and I am sorry that it is stop.

 

Opening text of the tread in excellent and belong to Zhong Pai(central school) but it is used among some Quanzhen also and we see in Wu Liu Pai.

 

My opinion is that there is only one way of Nei Dan as this is the case of Wai Dan.Both methods are secret and have writen and oral instructions and you need transsmision from Master in lineage.

 

On the other hand I think we cant speak of only one method in Alchemy because there is also Wai Dan which is used as Way Of Immortality as Master Ge Hong clrealy show.

 

Masters Zhongli Quan and Lu Dongbin are part of "secong and new" generation of Immortals who advocated Nei Dan.All this started with revelations from Shang Qing Pai when Wai Dan go to be more secret,elitistic and rare and literaty formed in the south Nei Dan as more easy,safe and cheaper way for Immortality.Still even in the time of actual formation of Nei Dan as we know it today(time of Master Zhang Boduan) there where Wai Dan initiations and from X to XIV century we can see how Nei Dan changed and evolved and it was not fixed as some like to belive.

 

In XVIII and XIX we find new versions of Inner Alchemy which is not the same as Nei Dan we speak here in this tread and itarised from Chinese Spirit cults and Salvation societys.They all belong to the cult of Lu Dongbin and claim communicattion with him and to recive new books with new instructions regarding Inner Alchemy which according to them are superior to Nei Dan.This is verry interesting story not at all covered in the west but is known in China and Taiwan.This groups dont even claim to be Daoist schools per se,but to have inspiration in Daoism.They also dont claim lineage and ancient history ,just alive and vivid conntact with Immortals who visit them to tech and instruct them.

 

So how we are to know if Immortals decide to transmite at this time some super method and teaching for new humanity and evolution of Spirit?

 

This is know fact in Daoism because Taiqing Pai claim to be superior Wai Dan,then come Shang Qing Pai who claim that now they transsmite even superior method,then after them come Nanzong Pai with only and highest method....and now this new groups.

 

Be carefull there are frauds and fake masters and schools,but we need to check all claims and see clues because Universe and Human evelove and even Immortals evolve.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

[voidisyinyang]

man so glad this thread got bumped - I was wondering why more people weren't pointing out the obvious - b/c they already had but it just got "pitted." Thanks.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

 

 

17. Symptoms disappearance.

 

huh?

 

also it does not have any obvious point. What is it trying to say? That '24. Charity and donations." is not alchemy? Dudes, who in his right mind would say that charity is alchemy? This is a mess.

[Taoist Texts]

Opening text of the tread in excellent and belong to Zhong Pai(central school) but it is used among some Quanzhen also and we see in Wu Liu Pai.

 

My opinion is that there is only one way of Nei Dan as this is the case of Wai Dan.Both methods are secret and have writen and oral instructions and you need transsmision from Master in lineage.

 

On the other hand I think we cant speak of only one method in Alchemy because there is also Wai Dan which is used as Way Of Immortality as Master Ge Hong clrealy show.

Dear Ormus,

 

perhaps you have not noticed that the text you like so much is directly contradicting what you and (Ge Hong) are saying about waidan. The text says all and any waidan is false. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[opendao]

perhaps you have not noticed that the text you like so much is directly contradicting what you and (Ge Hong) are saying about waidan. The text says all and any waidan is false. 

 

Obviously, the translated text doesn't speak about "all and any". If the text speaks about lead, mercury or "elixir", it doesn't mean "all and any waidan"... The text in other (untranslated) parts has very interesting sayings about waidan and its history, you could easily find them, but... 

 

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

 

OMG, then take a dictionary and translate it better! Show finally that all your words cost at least something, and you're not here just to troll Neidan schools that you obviously hate and completely don't understand. Focus on Kongzi, nobody cares about his legacy so you can post any fantasy you like )))

 

17. Symptoms disappearance.

 

huh?

 

also it does not have any obvious point. What is it trying to say?

 

It says what it says, and says it clear for those who has at least some intuition about Chinese texts. I bet you've never read the text in Chinese, so take an effort, find this part and translate 绝迹. Hint: a context is very important for any proper translation.

 

That '24. Charity and donations." is not alchemy? Dudes, who in his right mind would say that charity is alchemy? This is a mess.

 

Not everything you don't understand is a mess.... 布施 had a meaning at that time, and many Buddhists claim that their teaching has no difference with Dao, and many lay adepts had a belief, that by charity they can accumulate "good deeds" and finally become Immortals or Buddhas.

[Taoist Texts]

this piece is obviously very poorly translated, both from Chinese and into english.

 

 

17. Symptoms disappearance.

 

 

 

A symptom (from Greek σύμπτωμα, "accident, misfortune, that which befalls", from συμπίπτω, "I befall", from συν- "together, with" and πίπτω, "I fall") is a departure from normal function or feeling which is noticed by a patient, reflecting the presence of an unusual state, or of a disease.Symptom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hmmm so symptom is a sign of a disease, its disappearance  sounds like a good thing.

 

but this text says when you are sick and then  get better thats a a bad thing?

 

 

very confusing.

[Taoist Texts]

you're not here just to troll

uuuh name calling

Edited May 22, 2015 by Taoist Texts

[voidisyinyang]

The pdf link in this thread was a real gem btw - I posted in the group studies - thanks to Andrei for that link.

[Ormus]

Dear Taoist text,

 

I like also to see untranslated part of the text to have context about Wai Dan.

Text is produced in time when Daoist Masters focused to Nei Dan as Wai Dan initiation is lost or go hidden and there where many fake adepts posing as Wai Dan masters to trick people because of this many die and I understand that this text maybe point to such methods and not real Wai Dan.Still we can see in later times that Nanzong Masters produced some books related to Wai Dan,and how to reconcile this when we know that actualy they started Nei Dan in the form we know today.

For me both ways have their value and goals.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

[Taoist Texts]

Dear Taoist text,

 

I like also to see untranslated part of the text to have context about Wai Dan.

Luckily that will set you back only US5.36 This text have been masterfully translated years ago by a real Chinese and a real Taoist. Her name is Wong. Madam Eva Wong.

 

[Ormus]

Dear Taoist text,

 

yes I have this book but I am not sure that it is complete and also accurate translation.I recive advise to look for better translation.

 

All the best,

 

Ormus

[松永道]

Guys, I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. But the tone of the translation is a bit off in my opinion. I don't think the Chinese "旁门小法" should be translated as "false methods of minor schools". Literally, the Chinese reads, "side doors [and] minor methods". Zhong Liquan goes on to say that these methods are effective at curing illness, nourishing life, quieting the mind and achieving other results.

 

The problem, as Zhong Liquan puts it, is that over time people started mistakenly believing that these methods lead to achieving the great Dao. But they don't.

 

In my opinion, and the opinion of other Daoist works, health, energy, clarity, and ability are prerequisite to higher cultivation. But cultivated to excess, even good things become detours. I think that's Zhong Liquan's point here. These minor methods get results. However, they don't lead to the great Dao and anyone who mistakenly believes they do will be lead astray.

 

Basically, the great path has a lot of side roads. They can be useful, interesting, seductive, confusing, dangerous or a waste of time. They are the many Daoist arts. Depending on where you are, the side roads may lead to the great path or they may lead away.

Edited June 3, 2015 by 松永道

[Taoist Texts]

Guys, I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. But the tone of the translation is a bit off in my opinion. I don't think the Chinese "旁门小法" should be translated as "false methods of minor schools". Literally, the Chinese reads, "side doors [and] minor methods". Zhong Liquan goes on to say that these methods are effective at curing illness, nourishing life, quieting the mind and achieving other results.

Thats all true

 

The problem, as Zhong Liquan puts it, is that over time people started mistakenly believing that these methods lead to achieving the great Dao. But they don't. 

This is a bit unclear. This mistaken belief is a problem for whom exactly? Why  in practical terms is such a mistake a problem for these individuals? How many are them?

[opendao]

Guys, I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page. But the tone of the translation is a bit off in my opinion. I don't think the Chinese "旁门小法" should be translated as "false methods of minor schools". Literally, the Chinese reads, "side doors [and] minor methods". Zhong Liquan goes on to say that these methods are effective at curing illness, nourishing life, quieting the mind and achieving other results.

 

 

No, he doesn't say that. He says: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity". He says nothing good about these methods, and "side doors" in Taoist tradition also has no any positive meaning since Dao De Jing.

 

Methods are false, inconsistent, wrong etc just because they move people away from Dao. And the ability to draw a border line between Great Dao and "side doors" is practically important, because it also turns you towards the Dao.

 

The problem, as Zhong Liquan puts it, is that over time people started mistakenly believing that these methods lead to achieving the great Dao. But they don't.

 

In my opinion, and the opinion of other Daoist works, health, energy, clarity, and ability are prerequisite to higher cultivation.

 

Could you please name any classic work that states clearly that some "side door" methods are required for Dao cultivation? Any example from the list, say "Formal maintaining of the teaching lineage". Do you really want say it's a requirement? 

[opendao]

Thats all true

 

This is a bit unclear. This mistaken belief is a problem for whom exactly? Why  in practical terms is such a mistake a problem for these individuals? How many are them?

 

Nomen illis legio... at least at this forum )))

 

The problem of "false methods" is a problem of any serious practitioner, because "people prefer the side paths" (Lao Zi), and it's very easy to go off track.

[munky]

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Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[松永道]

No, he doesn't say that. He says: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity". He says nothing good about these methods, and "side doors" in Taoist tradition also has no any positive meaning since Dao De Jing.

Methods are false, inconsistent, wrong etc just because they move people away from Dao. And the ability to draw a border line between Great Dao and "side doors" is practically important, because it also turns you towards the Dao.

 

The Zhouyi Cantong Qi, one of the earliest Neidan texts calls the lesser methods 下德, "lower virtue methods". Basically they are methods of 有欲, having desire as chapter 1 of the DDJ puts it. They have clear goals and results but do not lead to the great Dao. However, they can prepare a person to cultivate the great Dao. Buddhists practice concentration before they practice inner sight, Vippassana. Daoists cultivate health, energy, concentration, etc before cultivating immortality. Medicine is a minor method, physical strengthening is a minor method, anything you do to achieve a small result is a minor method.

 

Dragon Gate Daoists these days who wish to cultivate Zhong Liquan's Lingbao Bifa first cultivate many minor methods. Together they are called 引仙法, attracting immortality methods.

 

Minor methods move people away from the Dao only if people confuse them for the Great Dao. We agree, the ability to distinguish the Great Dao from the side doors is important. But If you have that ability, side doors pose no hazard. After all, the great Dao is 大而无外，小而无内 so great there is nothing beyond it, and so small that nothing separate exists within it. The side doors are also Dao.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/221295734/Eva-Wong-trans-The-Tao-of-Health-Longevity-and-Immortality-Chung-Lu-Ch-uan-Tao-Chi-pdf#scribd

 

Wow - this is a great reread - I read this long ago but now it's making more sense. thanks.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/221295734/Eva-Wong-trans-The-Tao-of-Health-Longevity-and-Immortality-Chung-Lu-Ch-uan-Tao-Chi-pdf#scribd

 

Wow - this is a great reread - I read this long ago but now it's making more sense. thanks.

[Taoist Texts]

The original:

 

吕曰：“大道难知、难行之理如何？”

钟曰：“以傍门小法，易为见功，而欲流多得。互相传授，至死不悟，遂成风俗，而败坏大道。有斋戒者、有休粮者、有采气者、有漱咽者、有离妻者、有断味者、有禅定者、有不语者、有存想者、有采阴者、有服气者、有持净者、有息心者、有绝累者、有开顶者、有缩龟者、有绝迹者、有看读者、有烧炼者、有定息者、有导引者、有吐纳者、有采补者、有布施者、有供养者、有救济者、有入山者、有识性者、有不动者、有受持者，……傍门小法不可备陈。至如采日月之华、天地之气，心思意想、望结丹砂，屈体劳形、欲求超脱，多入少出，攻病可也。认为真胎息，绝念忘言，养性可也,指作太一含真气，金枪不倒，黄河逆流，养命之下法；形如槁木，心若死灰，集神之小术。奈何古今奉道之士，苦苦留心，往往挂意。以咽津为药，如何得造化？聚气为丹，如何得停留？指肝为龙，而肺为虎，如何得交合？认坎为铅，而离为汞，如何得抽添？四时浇灌，望长黄芽。一意不散，欲求大药。差年错月，废日乱时。不识五行根蒂，安知三才造化？寻枝摘叶，迷惑后人。致使大道日远、日疏，异端并起，而成风俗，以失先师之本意者，良由道听途说、口耳之学。而指诀于无知之徒，递相训式，节序而入于泉下，令人寒心。非不欲开陈大道，盖世人孽重福薄，不信天机，重财轻命，愿为鬼。”

 

 

 

This is the passage  in a much less shoddy translation by Madame Wong
 

 

 
Lu asked: "Why is it so difficult to know about the Tao and practice its teachings?"
 
Chung said: "It is because many people think that there are quick and easy ways to attain the Tao. They teach one another, nor knowing that all their lives they have been practicing incorrectly. With time these erroneous methods became established, and the real teachings of the Tao are forgotten.
 
Abstaining from meat, abstaining from grains, absorbing the vapors of fog and dew, swallowing saliva, living in isolation, meditating in ch'an (zen) stillness, maintaining silence, visualizing the deities, gathering yin energy, regulating breath, being celibate, stopping thinking, abstaining from physical labor, opening the cavity on top of the head, drawing in the testicles, studying the scriptures, tempering the body, slowing the breath, massaging, circulating the breath, gathering generative energy from a partner, helping the poor, cultivating the self, doing charitable works, living in the mountains, taming the mind, facing the wall, chanting the scriptures, absorbing the essences of the sun and the moon, and inhaling the vapors of the sky and the earth—these are just some of the techniques that people think will help them create the cinnabar pill of immortality. 
 
Hoping to be liberated from mundane existence, they force the body into unnatural postures and end up injuring themselves. They try to conserve generative energy by stopping the leakage of seminal fluid but do not know that these methods can make them immune only to common diseases. They think that if they can breathe like an infant and if they can stop thinking, they can cultivate the mind. They focus on retaining the breath within and try to build the fortress by reversing the flow of the Yellow River, not knowing that these techniques are only minor ways of lengthening the life span. As for sitting like a withered tree and making the mind as still as cold ashes—these are but minor techniques of focusing the spirit. 
 
Many practitioners past and present are ignorant of the correct methods of cultivation. How can their bodies be transmuted if they are stuck in the belief that they can cultivate the medicine by swallowing saliva? How can they hold on to the elixir if they are convinced that they can realize the pill the elixir if they are convinced that they can realize the pill by gathering the breath? How can the true copulation take place if they think that the liver is the dragon and the lungs are the tiger? How can they replenish the life force if they equate k'an with lead and li with mercury? They think that the yellow sprouts will grow if they apply fire and water in the four seasons. They also think that they will realize the great medicine if they hold on to the intention. Ignorant of the yearly and monthly cycles of changes, they do the wrong things at the wrong time. They do not know how to use the five elements to build the foundation and they have only vague ideas about the workings of the three existences. 
 
Like inexperienced gardeners rummaging through branches and leaves, they confuse fellow practitioners and mislead future generations of students. When the teachings are distorted, people will be distanced from the Tao. As a result, false methods will proliferate. The popular ones will be practiced widely and will eventually be accepted as truth. In my opinion the false teachers are to blame. They have taken information gathered through hearsay and gossip and have taught it to generations of unknowing students. In doing so, their actions have condemned their followers to suffering in the realm of the dead. This is very frightening indeed. The sages have always wanted to reveal the teachings of the Tao, but people throw away the opportunities to learn. In refusing to believe in the workings of Heaven and in valuing their wealth more than their life, they have doomed themselves to the realm of ghosts."
 

 

The author admits that the minor methods do have excellent health-enhancing and life-prolonging benefits.
 
 

[Taoist Texts]

How does one know whether they are on a side path? Or on the direct path?

 

Moving towards or away from the Tao?

It is very simple: if the path is what the regular people want then it is a false path.

If the path is what the regular people dislike then its a true path.

[LaoZiDao]

How does one know whether they are on a side path? Or on the direct path?

 

Moving towards or away from the Tao?

 

Scriptures will help guide you away from false paths.

 

Having a true teacher is the only way to know what true path is though.