Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[KenBrace]

Jim says "God bless you for caring Zoom."

 

 

You should stop. Really.

[KenBrace]

But its okay for you guys to insult the entire mo pai lineage?

 

Seriously. Whatever x1000. All you are doing is making irrational points to try your best to pick useless fun. You have no clue what you are talking about. Keep on with your "false methods of minor schools" as Zhongli Quan would say.

[joeblast]

You guys were explicitly told by the lineage - now who's "making stuff up?"

 

 

like I said here,

explained, heh...

notes are abridged and incomplete - "no they arent"
explicit lineage ban - "so?"
in a system where people had trouble getting to stages even with a master present - "we dont need no stinkin master"
and if you have a problem which requires a master, what then? yangey yangey yangey unbalancey...

pardon if it looks like a recipe for disaster, but "explained" has only been "we dont recognize the validity of the potential issues yall have raised."

Never been articulated in the least. Tidbits of something someone displayed that you've been told not to use from the creators of it themselves. I guess it'd be one thing if I'd ever gotten a single substantive reply on the rationale behind ignoring this...aside from no fair, I shouldnt be prevented from learning the most powerful system evah, in fact, no entity in the entire universe can prevent me!

 

now remember, you are on ignore, so I'm not going to be addressing you again here. feel free to ignore my points at your own peril, for they are questions anyone who is even considering mo pai as their attempted path should ask themselves. before they're scrambling around trying to find a master to help them correct what they did to themselves...

 

 

[alchemist]

What methods does Zhongli Quan advise?

The true methods are never described in the texts, unlike the false ones.

BR

[alchemist]

The Mo Pai school's method is not false and it is efficient.

These methods (and the others described in the text) can give some results, but not immortality. That is the difference.

BR

[alchemist]

It possibly suffers in translation but the overall tone of it tends towards triumphalism.

The translation (Russian-to-English) is not perfect, I do understand. But hope everyone understands what's written there.

Regarding triumphalism, my dear British chum. It's kind of funny to hear that from a guy who calls himself a grandmaster

But if only you read the text carefully, you might have noticed that this is a translation of the words of Lu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan. If you consider their words 'triumphalism' - well, good luck finding greater authorities in Daoism.

Finally, I don’t really think that discussing the personality of a topic starter instead of the text (which is a translation of the Daoist classics) is a good idea to start a conversation. At least, it is not an evidence of good manners.

BR

[alchemist]

I hate to say... " I told you so....." But ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are wrong, my dear British chum.

I don't know who damdao is, but he is definitely not from Wuliupai. Also, it looks like he is from Argentina, and I really doubt that Argentinians have 'Slavic mindset' (and I also doubt that the disciples of Lu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan had one). But definitely you can go on posting your thoughtful interpretations of the words of the famous Patriarchs of Daoism.

BR

[RookieIAm]

(Translated from Russian, original Chinese-to-Russian translation by D.A. Artemiev.)

 

Lü Dongbin asked his teacher Zhongli Quan: "Why is Great Dao difficult to understand and realize?"

 

Zhongli Quan answered: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity; they are passed from one to another and until death the true awareness does not come; they subsequently become customary and discredit the Great Dao.

Would you please enlighten us on the "true methods" that you believe are effective?

Edited August 5, 2014 by RookieIAm

[alchemist]

Would you please enlighten us on the "true methods" that you believe are effective?

In general, neidan (internal alchemy) is. In particular, the true methods are never described openly.

BR

[Taoist Texts]

I hate to say... " I told you so....." But ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

oh come on. 5 guys from the same outfit belittling competition and pushing own wares? Thats all in the spirit of sharing and learning. Does not look like a coordinated spam campaign in the slightest.

[Andrei]

What methods does Zhongli Quan advise?

 

 

The thing is if you read the text until the end you find that they used the same methods, or at least some of them like "sitting meditation" or "gathering Qi" or whatever, what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them.

Because everybody is different with a different energetic pattern, they use different methods, it is a matter of fine tuning and scheduling that differs from person to person. What they were criticizing is that someone preaching or teaching excesively and exclusively only one of the methods, like many people even nowadays do. So yes Da Dao means all of them but "depends on the practitioner".

[dawei]

 

4. Saliva swallowing.

 

I think the point being made is that the indications become a fixation and these are not methods...

 

 

Pouncing Tiger, Soaring Dragon

 

 

Don’t forget that xin also refers to ‘mind’ as well as Heart. When you get everything set up right, you are relaxed yet focused and present, the mind has settled down, and you turn the light around to quietly observe the source of thoughts, you suddenly find that your mouth has filled with sweet saliva, which we call gan lü: sweet dew. These are the fluids generated by the mind: xin.” He gave me a look. “But don’t get fixated on saliva, for god’s sake. It is just a minor indication that you are basically doing most things right, so far. It is not important by itself. Say, are you hungry? Or is it just me?”

[Andrei]

There are basically 4 methods of cultivation:

- sitting

- standing

- walking (moving)

- laying down

 

But if you read the thexts in Daozhang they say all of them harm the body if done excessively.

I don't remember which is which but they harm the bones, the blood, the muscles, and the Qi.

So if you practice only one or two but neglect the others then you have a problem (which was created by yourself by cultivating wrong).

[opendao]

The thing is if you read the text until the end you find that they used the same methods, or at least some of them like "sitting meditation" or "gathering Qi" or whatever, what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them.

 

Don't you find that something is wrong here? If one parts of the text contradicts another part IN YOUR interpretation, then maybe something is wrong with your interpretation? Maybe what you read and interpret as "meditation" and "gathering qi" is ABSOLUTELY different from what is described as false methods?

 

Because everybody is different with a different energetic pattern, they use different methods, it is a matter of fine tuning and scheduling that differs from person to person. What they were criticizing is that someone preaching or teaching excesively and exclusively only one of the methods, like many people even nowadays do. So yes Da Dao means all of them but "depends on the practitioner".

 

No. It's not the case. In the text you can see clearly that all methods mentioned are false methods. It's not written that they become correct if you mix them together in some way or another, right?

 

And Neidan methods usually don't depend on the practitioner. There are some details, but the method is the same. And the order is the same.

[opendao]

I think the point being made is that the indications become a fixation and these are not methods...

 

 

Pouncing Tiger, Soaring Dragon

 

No, saliva swallowing is a quite popular old method, but your text speaks about "saliva producing" which happens on its own.

Edited August 5, 2014 by opendao

[Andrei]

Why don't you put the whole text, and we can talk on that instead just on a snippet?

 

"saliva producing" happens after one hour of MCO, then you should swallow the saliva.

[dawei]

No, saliva swallowing is a quite popular old method, but your text speaks about "saliva producing" which happens on its own.

 

My point was that you can't swallow unless it is produced... and at some point, the idea of producing (as an indication) was replaced with the idea of swallowing (a method). Thus the indication was lost (true method was lost) and a new [false] method was born.

 

I feel this is one way that false methods can arise.

[dawei]

Why don't you put the whole text, and we can talk on that instead just on a snippet?

 

"saliva producing" happens after one hour of MCO, then you should swallow the saliva.

 

The bolded part Pouncing Tiger, Soaring Dragon is a Link to the story.

[goldisheavy]

The true methods are never described in the texts, unlike the false ones.

BR

 

You're avoiding the answer.

[goldisheavy]

The thing is if you read the text until the end you find that they used the same methods, or at least some of them like "sitting meditation" or "gathering Qi" or whatever, what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them.

Because everybody is different with a different energetic pattern, they use different methods, it is a matter of fine tuning and scheduling that differs from person to person. What they were criticizing is that someone preaching or teaching excesively and exclusively only one of the methods, like many people even nowadays do. So yes Da Dao means all of them but "depends on the practitioner".

 

This is a reasonable answer. And since the practitioner is the one who knows oneself best, no one can actually specify the exact sequence of what is to be done for someone else. People can instead point out general principles, and how the errors arise and why they're considered errors, but the rest is up to the practitioner's discretion.

Edited August 5, 2014 by goldisheavy

[opendao]

My point was that you can't swallow unless it is produced... and at some point, the idea of producing (as an indication) was replaced with the idea of swallowing (a method). Thus the indication was lost (true method was lost) and a new [false] method was born.

 

I feel this is one way that false methods can arise.

 

I got your point, but I doubt it can be aplied to this specific case based on what I know about the "swallowing saliva" method, how it's described in some texts. But in general yes, you're right, it happens the way you described. People mix methods and results, think that results are methods and eventually lost the truth.

[GrandmasterP]

You are wrong, my dear British chum.I don't know who damdao is, but he is definitely not from Wuliupai. Also, it looks like he is from Argentina, and I really doubt that Argentinians have 'Slavic mindset' (and I also doubt that the disciples of Lu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan had one). But definitely you can go on posting your thoughtful interpretations of the words of the famous Patriarchs of Daoism.BR

Admitted that's an historic text your chap has translated but there are acres of those about.

The selectivity and steer of your OP gives the gist and direction of exactly where this thread was heading.

As a Grandmaster ( a teacher of teachers by profession and persuasion) I've come to intuit that all paths tend towards success if followed diligently and with discipline.

The 'triumph' such as it is abides in and with the cultivator working with her or his teacher - seldom, if ever; in any text.

Edited August 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[goldisheavy]

Admitted that's an historic text your chap has translated but there are acres of those about.

The selectivity and steer of your OP gives the gist and direction of exactly where this thread was heading.

As a Grandmaster ( a teacher of teachers by profession and persuasion) I've come to intuit that all paths tend towards success if followed diligently and with discipline.

The 'triumph' such as it is abides in and with the cultivator working with her or his teacher - seldom, if ever; in any text.

 

There are many ways one can follow to a deeper understanding of oneself. And there is no avoiding the need to understand oneself. You can understand a doctrine or a set of methods as completely as you like, and so long as you still don't understand yourself, you're just wasting time. On the other hand, if you understand everything incorrectly, but through a series of errors you've managed to understand yourself, you've arrived home, where everyone wants to end up.

 

This is why fighting over methods is such a pointless endeavor. There will never be a resolution because there is no single objectively correct method. Hell, you don't even need mystical insight to see this. Just look at history. The sectarian feuds have been ongoing since time immemorial...

Edited August 5, 2014 by goldisheavy

[GrandmasterP]

Top post of the thread so far goldisheavy.

Well said.

 

[opendao]

Admitted that's an historic text your chap has translated but there are acres of those about.

The selectivity and steer of your OP gives the gist and direction of exactly where this thread was heading.

As a Grandmaster ( a teacher of teachers by profession and persuasion) I've come to intuit that all paths tend towards success if followed diligently and with discipline.

 

success means different things in different paths. You teach qigong & well-being, so maybe it's better do not speculate about paths you haven't ever leant...

 

The 'triumph' such as it is abides in and with the cultivator working with her or his teacher - seldom, if ever; in any text.

 

maybe it's true for you, in qigong there are 100500 schools and no one has any authority, because they all go in different directions.

 

In Neidan texts mean a lot. Different texts have a different value. If you don't understand texts, you will never understand the tradition. And obviously your attitude shows the respect you have to that tradition... If you wan't to argue with immortals, you can bring other texts written by perfected saints of the past, for sure it's not a problem for your grand level, right? You know "acres of them" you said.