Is new age and spiritual stuff irrelevant to the tao cultivator?

[Horus]

Thank you, Horus.❤

 

Horus said:

 

This is buddhahood, wizardry, enlightening being— the active expression of complete reality with no inside or outside.

 

This is precisely the highest realization of the Supreme Vehicle of buddhist and the nonresistant Virtue of Receptivity of taoist traditions.

 

This is why I say that sudden enlightenment is entry-level. Horus' statement is the application of enlightened mind in the midst of delusion.

 

This is shattering the polar mountain (duality) and entering into the Tao in reality because the realization of enlightening qualities in the midst of the killing energy of karmic evolution is the knowledge of delusion and enlightenment is the same mind.

 

In terms of the OP…

 

 

I find Horus' story interesting in that it has in it a hint of an idea expressed in Chinese shepherding folk-tales. But the story I am referring to is much less dramatic and a bit more focused in that it really concerns itself (the tale) with how to arrive at one's relationship with one's sheep in order to not be required to maintain them (the responsibility of one's conditional aspect of worldly involvements).

 

The reason for this is to free oneself for spontaneous living in the world without engendering cloying personal evolutionary recensions (going along with the conditioned flow of creative evolution), because this is unconscious deviation from floating around in the center of the compass of the immediate pristine pivot of awareness at the incipience of unconditional unity as it manifests as delusion for those ignorant of their nature and as "knowing thyself" as the world itself, for those who are able to see reality and express enlightened mind without being limited by creation.

 

As one's destiny is arrived at by virtue of fulfilling one's particular strain of karmic DNA, cloying deviations (personal evolutionary recensions), are unnecessary if one can see reality at its incipience thereby avoiding floating off into arbitrary involvements, i.e.: unwittingly "rewriting" ones true destiny.

 

In the truest sense, one's destiny is to realize the totality of oneself. In seeing complete reality, the conditional ramifications of one's circumstantial existence is insignificant. In other words, it doesn't matter what you do, because arrival at enlightening awareness is the expression of ones unity as the world.

 

There is no right or wrong in terms of seeing reality. Enlightening activity makes everything real.

 

 

 

But people's inverted awareness is not an idea, it is unconscious. The inversion of awareness (taoism calls this "turning the light around"), is the basis of self-refinement.

 

 

 

 

ed note: remember to thank Horus, and add 6th and 7th paragraphs

Hmm, very tasty indeed! The pleasure is all ours (insert bow).

 

"But people's inverted awareness is not an idea, it is unconscious. The inversion of awareness (taoism calls this "turning the light around"), is the basis of self-refinement."

 

Yes, but the originator of said idea was not people but original spirit, and very conscious...thus inverted it becomes the unconscious idea within substantiality (manifest).

 

The self-refinement is no more than re-inverting said inversion to allow the construct of personal conscious mind awareness to Know Thyself (emotionally, mentally, energetically, spiritually, and physically).

 

Nothing is irrelevant to the Tao cultivator, it's all food for reversion.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Horus

[nine tailed fox]

And did I tell you this

 

The biggest problem I faced because of new age and law of attraction

 

It makes you think too much, specially negative thoughts

 

Our mind us wired weirdly, we will think of pink elephant of someone says dont think about it

 

So this law of attraction mindset makes you too much attention if your thoughts, it's kind of like obsession

 

Taoism says

 

I see everything but look nothing

 

New age philosophy will make you look everything but see nothing lol

 

I am still trying to get out if this problem

 

Guys if you are not in a good mental shape dint read about law of attraction

 

It will just make you unnecessarily more worried and attentive of your thoughts which is not MINdfulness

[Horus]

In light of the original post's question and slant , calling this discussion a sewer ... seems like you shouldnt be here ?

I agree, and that's not what I was calling a sewer, nor TTB at large.

 

Namely, in this instance, the sewer of omnipresently existent tendencies to throw "openly egotistical judgement... at "new age" and "hippie"."

 

Thanks for the clarification/overflow separation.

[Horus]

so i had my boyfriend try to dig around and find any kind of mention at all of chakras in the vedas and he couldn't find jack shit

 

i guess i stand corrected

That's bc the Vedas are a body of texts...chakras arise on the body of people.

 

Get him to dig around on you instead!

[Horus]

Typical New Age conspiratorial response

True, as much truth can be hidden within ridicule as nonsense.

 

But there is no conspiracy!

 

The only conspiracy it boils down to is the people fleecing themselves

[Horus]

Motivations for why we practice make all of the difference.

 

In Buddhism, they remember why they practice before doing anything (to benefit others) as well as dedicate all of the merit of the work to others. Such a motivation for practicing and studying something is definitely moving into the light.

 

On the other hand, and I'm guilty of this myself, we have idle curiosity and spiritual materialism...growing an ego that has to do with spirituality as a way of gaining power over others. This can be a strong motivation in the beginning, and may even continue for a long time as it has for me...it causing you to study and practice ways that transform you into something better is a good thing. The ends justify the means, and eventually you end up having the right motivation, I would think.

In duality, with the very intention to "dedicate all of the merit of the work to others" (thus relinquishing the desire for materialism to benefit self) the very polar opposite (materialism) will come to the fore.

 

Seeker:"Dear Tao, please allow me to be non-materialistic"

 

Tao:"No problem, but we need to dig up every trace of potential materialism within you so you may re-choose non-materialism in every aspect of your self. It might not be pretty for a while, and you may be tempted in order that you fully realise your original self".

[Horus]

It makes you think too much, specially negative thoughts

 

So this law of attraction mindset makes you too much attention if your thoughts, it's kind of like obsession

 

I am still trying to get out if this problem

What you are describing here is simply the first step or realisation.

 

You've set in place a given intention thus pulling to yourself all that stands between your current state and the end game.

 

Pulling up the shit but not taking responsibility for it. Looking into the abyss and coming out with the gunk that you seek to bring into correct perception, but not activating or having the tools to transition and transmute the energies from negative to positive.

 

Thought is fire. Energy. It's energy whether its positive or negative.

 

You simply need to take responsibility here. Responsibility for creating the thoughts in the first place, responsibility for allowing yourself to progress through them and take the gold from the darkness.

 

I've never delved into the Law of Attraction because I know that those behind it wield the whole idea with their own agenda.

 

But, this is about you, me, us - not about one age or the next.

 

We are not victims of wrong thought. "Wrong" thought is the very fabric of manifest existence - because the true original way or "Right Thought" left us in spirit ad infinitum - with no ability to experience at all.

 

So, the trick must be "Right Thought within Wrong Thought".

 

Apologies for the lecture.

[Seth Ananda]

1. We should be Materialistic. The Material world is a very Important part of the sacred dimension of life. True Materialism should be seeking to protect our Earth Mother and her natural resources. Doing so will require real, material actions, not just positive thinking and fantasy.

 

2. As far as New age being a spiritual path, all it seems to do is encourage deep Narcissism and entitlement. Everything becomes about you.

What you are thinking, feeling and manifesting is of more import that anything else. Your personal safety and security becomes more important than techniques that unsettle, push and catalyse real growth.

 

3. It creates false equality. Everything is equal, everyone's perspective is just as valid and equal as everyone else's, and everyone is a master, and an absolute authority on themselves, even if they show the self awareness of a gnat.

Actual masters {who may even have the brain scans to demonstrate their existence in a very different state} are viewed suspiciously as products of an old elitist paradigm, that want's to tell you what to do to actually evolve. Oh the Horror!

 

4. It encourages spiritual bypassing massively. Teaches 'niceness' over authenticity. It then creates Authenticity [tm] workshops which seem more like tantrum house sheltered workshops for childmen and whiney bitches. I'm expressing myself, its Sacred!

 

5. It borrows from everywhere. Dalai Lama quotes, Shamanism quotes, and gods know what else, all to self validate a system that has none of the potential or integrity of the real traditions they selectively pick from.

Because they only pick the bits that suit them, that seem nice and comfortable to their narcissistic self entitled existences. None of the gruelling rigor is required or even noticed.

[Nungali]

I agree, and that's not what I was calling a sewer, nor TTB at large.

 

Namely, in this instance, the sewer of omnipresently existent tendencies to throw "openly egotistical judgement... at "new age" and "hippie"."

 

Thanks for the clarification/overflow separation.

 

Judgement? Certainly!

 

Egotistical ? Hmmmm ... depends on how you mean it . Not being clear on that I seek the 'consensual' meaning:

 

egotistical

ˌɛgəˈtɪstɪk(ə)l/

adjective

1. excessively conceited or absorbed in oneself; self-centred.

   "he's selfish, egotistical, and arrogant"

   synonyms: self-centred, selfish, egocentric, egomaniacal, self-interested, self-seeking,self-regarding, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-loving, narcissistic, vain,conceited, proud, self-important; More

   So , no.

   My main revulsion is, as I outlined above, the problems it has caused. mostly to the vulnerable ( as outlined in my post), including children (my pet dislike) and my personal non hear-say experience, which is extensive, and which I believe , was tagged above by Aetherous as motivation.

   Its still happening, I go to a think tank meeting and am involved with another group and really its half new age conspiracy theory and half fantasy speculation. Research, papers, cross-references (including those to nature and 'reality' are met with invalid criticisms and aversions to that approach. Some think I am an illuminati agent sent to disrupt their progress into the fantastic .

   Moi ... ?

   

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Love and light!

 

Let's all dance the fairy dance of universal cosmic oneness and harmony!

 

Come, my nymphs!

 

 

Slightly more serious answer, it depends how rigid your definition of "tao cultivator" is.

 

I don't suppose I am a "cultivator," really.

 

Perhaps I am.

 

But I am a wooly new ager with no sincerity and less integrity.

 

One of the elements of "new age" being ecumenism and a tolerance and indeed favour for comparative thinking in spiritual matters, means that I personally find all manner of materials of interest.

 

Namaste!

 

ps what this thread needs is more... ponies!

 

pps yes I am an illuminati agent sent to disrupt.

 

ppps is there a living to be had in running a new age store? I'd be lucky to get a job sweeping the floor. Still, I'm good at that.

...

Edited August 8, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Apech]

It's endless meandering monotonous eye watering subliminal messages. No way will I succumb.

[silent thunder]

Recently (the last few years) two things keep popping up on my thought pond regularly, usually after a bit of mental stillness.

 

wherever I rage, there I find me

wherever I am not permitted to laugh, there is my work

 

The second one comes up for me a lot more and seems directly related to my active and oft-restated intention to not take the world personally. This practice started eight years ago with the birth of my son.

 

This intense hate/vitriol/condemnation of anything labeled New Age is telling.

For me again, I can't conceive of a path that is separate from source.

If some folks want to engage in things that to me seem frivolous and silly... why do I care?

 

We all do many things that are frivolous and seem silly to someone.

 

From where I watch... the definition of New Age is so vague.

It's more like a label for anything that I deem unimportant.

 

Truth is found everywhere, especially in untruth, for in perception and realization of untruth, Truth shines even brighter.

Who cares if a rich lady wants to spend her money on feel good seminars? Who cares if some guy wants to spend his money at the roulette tables? Why should it bother me that someone walks around spouting things I consider nonsense? None of these things are harming me in any way. More often now, these events that used to make me angry, cause me to start laughing. This is evidence of my greatest work in this life. Transmuting anger into laughter.

 

I strive to not take it personally when I see others living life so oddly different from me. It allows me to laugh so much more and rage less often. The only time this really breaks down is when someone is actively harming another.

 

In the end, all paths lead to source. Who am I to say who follows what, wrongly and to bad ends?

[Nungali]

...

Love and light!

 

Let's all dance the fairy dance of universal cosmic oneness and harmony!

 

Come, my nymphs!

 

 

 

Holy maidens, duly weaveDances for the mighty motherBacchanal to Bacchus cleave!Wave his narthex wand, and leaveEarthly joys to earth to smother!Io! Evoe! Sisters, mingleIn the choir, the dance, the revel!He divine, the Spirit single,He in every vein shall tingle.Sense and sorrow to the devil!Mingle in the laughing measure,Hand and lip to breast and thigh!In enthusiastic pleasureGrasp the solitary treasure!

Slightly more serious answer, it depends how rigid your definition of "tao cultivator" is.

 

I don't suppose I am a "cultivator," really.

 

Perhaps I am.

 

But I am a wooly new ager with no sincerity and less integrity.

 

One of the elements of "new age" being ecumenism and a tolerance and indeed favour for comparative thinking in spiritual matters, means that I personally find all manner of materials of interest.

 

Ah, but Captain Marvel ... thats just eclecticism, albeit a noble thingo. You lack the most annoying new age / hippie trait that is one of, when things are sauteed a la hermetica you do not

 

And if you were to write watered down new age rubbish and someone were to tell you so and direct you to the original source you may well go there, and learn and develop and return with your take on it. Not throw a red herring because what was suggested some how threatened. (Ah yes, but you are not selling a book or a workshop are you ? ]

 

Plus I dont think you are the type to believe that your problems can be dispelled by waving a store bought wand around in the air ...... do you !

 

Namaste!

 

ps what this thread needs is more... ponies!

 

pps yes I am an illuminati agent sent to disrupt.

 

ppps is there a living to be had in running a new age store?

 

A ventriloquist had a fire in his house and lost everything, including the dummy and hence, his ability to earn a living. "What am I to do?" he asked a friend.

 

"Just get a job in a New Age shop." his friend suggested.

 

" But I would not know anything about that."

 

"Oh, its easy, you just say you are a channeller or something and you make up stuff as you go along. If you have a skill or some special knowledge, weave that into it and it will make it seem to those customers as if you have some sort of authenticity."

 

So he does. He sets himself up in this new Age Shop and puts a sign in the window;

 

Channelling: Short consultation $25. Detailed consultation $50. Full professional consultation $100.

 

A little old lady comes in and asks him "I want to talk to my dear departed husband Ken, can you do that?"

 

"Yes madam."

 

"What do I get for $25 ?"

 

"For $25 you give me a message and I will pass it on to Ken on the astral plane."

 

"Oh ... is that all? What do I get for $50?"

 

"For $50 you get to give me a message and I will pass it on to Ken on the astral plane and I will listen to his answer and tell you what it was."

 

"Oh, that sounds more like it. I think I will have that ... but, tell me, what would I get for the full professional consultation ."

 

"For that, you pay me $100 you get to give me a message and I will pass it on to Ken on the astral plane and I will listen to his answer and tell you what it was ... while I drink a glass of water."

 

I'd be lucky to get a job sweeping the floor. Still, I'm good at that.

...

 

Ohh dear ... Cap, your better than that! Sweeping up hippy shit

Edited August 9, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

The only time this really breaks down is when someone is actively harming another.

 

As I said above about motivation.

 

I used to be a lot harder. What do I care if some snot nosed kid doesnt have a paradise to play in any more?

 

Until snot -nosed kid comes home from school crying and her and distraught single mum that spent 2 years trying to find housing and finally got it it here is crying herself because the kids at school teased hers because their hippy mum is now going to take over their house and land and now they will have no where to live.

 

I guess its just my demeanour .

 

You know ... I addressed this, I started the reaction here (at home) against this bullshit. The hippies either ran away, made more of a mess, sided with the enemy ( Attorney General) or attacked each other. It was only due to me initiating a defence, speaking out about bullshit and standing up that defrayed the whole thing from happening at the last moment. After that it was only due to a few individuals that came together, focused and won the court case (who of course were the same people that had held everything together previously, like the accounting, finances, paying the rates, having emergency first aid equipment, could milk a cow, 'paid the rent' ( as they say here * ) etc .

 

You see ... I am actually talking about real experience ... thats mine . Yes, if it was Hare Krishna, Christian, or Buddhist society I was in and doing the same, my disdain and reaction would be the same.

 

I have had great experience in the early days (yeah guess what, I used to be a hippie ) , but as I said, that was the beginning 'aquarian' visionary / inspirational stage. Going through the practical process of manifesting that in reality is where my frustration with the movement began - all hampered by those same things including those outlined in post # 58

 

In the end, all paths lead to source. Who am I to say who follows what, wrongly and to bad ends?

 

Thank you , glad you appreciate my choice of path

 

 

 

[ * " Oh. Shut the fuck up and pay the rent, Whitey. Let’s really Say Sorry in our traditional way and offer up the thing we hold most sacred: capital."

 

http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/01/23/razers-class-warfare-aboriginal-australia-needs-capital-not-bullshit-feelings/?wpmp_switcher=mobile&wpmp_tp=1 ]

[Nungali]

It's endless meandering monotonous eye watering subliminal messages. No way will I succumb.

 

I have always found 'magic' doesnt work to get cash.

 

However, it ill work to manifest what you might want to buy with that cash .

 

Here ya go :

 

 

[Apech]

I have always found 'magic' doesnt work to get cash.

 

However, it ill work to manifest what you might want to buy with that cash .

 

Here ya go :

 

 

 

 

Thanks mate! Just need some

 

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Ah yes, but you are not selling a book or a workshop are you ?

 

Wouldja buy if I did?

 

Six Point Path to sudden illumination, tried and tested!

 

Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Secret Element Pranayama, Broad Scriptural Study, Secret Element Qi Gong, Secret Element Not-Tantric-At-All.

 

Hell, it might work for you.

 

I doubt it.

 

Maybe I could just hit you on the head with a stick.

 

Frankly, I would prefer that way.

 

It's easier, but even less likely to be effective.

 

More fun for me though!

 

ps above wizard secrets available for a price, negotiations via pm please!

 

pps its a wad ewe luck in ad!

 

ppps kundalini psychosis available at no extra charge!

...

[deci belle]

 

Is new age and spiritual stuff irrelevant to the tao cultivator?

 

This stuff isn't new. How about getting on topic, Nungali and stop your ranting. Get to the point, hmmmm?

[deci belle]

In terms of the OP… if nobody objects~

It's not just these irrelevancies, cultivation is itself peripheral.

There is nothing to cultivate.

I can only go by what I know, and that is the unequivocality that nothing can be done about it (arriving at harmony in the tao).

I can't help but notice the big disclaimer at the heart of your question… that is, "IF one was in total harmony…" You say with the tao, but I am correcting your presumption as there is no "with". There is no separation, which is why it cannot be grasped. It is already your nature. You just need to see that yourself. And to do that, you must stop. Learning to stop action based on views of self and other relative to a false separate imaginary self is self-refinement. THAT'S CULTIVATION.

So all the BS you mentioned in the OP is frivolity in the extreme. Self-refinement is adapting impersonally to ordinary situations. That's all enlightening activity is anyway. You don't need to do anything first. Selfless adaption is inconceivable to anyone else. Nobody knows. You do it in broad daylight unbeknownst to anyone. Why shouldn't it be inconceivable to you too? It is inconceivable. When you do it, it's non-doing. If it were conceivable, it would be doing. This is using the world to refine the self in order to arrive at entry into the tao in reality. Buddhism calls this entry into inconceivability. Google it.

Not that unified enlightening function isn't already established~ yet its expression is haphazard and only very occasionally activated. Why can't people tell when enlightened mind is activated? Because delusion and enlightenment is the same mind. There are no two minds. The second reason is because people do not maintain a continuous subtle concentration observing mind, so they do not recognize when yang arises occasionally from within stillness. This is celestial movement. Self refinement is selfless response to ordinary affairs while sustaining subtle observation simultaneously awaiting the time of the spontaneous arising of the immaterial celestial yang energy from within nothingness.

"Cultivation" is really about establishing the foundation for and solidifying the basis of continuous enlightening function AS the tao in terms of onself in the world. There is nothing to do about it other than see reality as is. Pineal glands and other such nonsense are for ignoramuses. Real human beings experience these things in their sleep without even so much as knowing that the word referring to the anatomical organ has letters.

Just the approach that considers "things to do" is not only arbitrarily compensatory and erroneous in terms of harmony in the tao, it is totally barring oneself from that very inherent harmony in the tao where there is ONLY harmony in the tao before the first thought without beginning.

These programs and extraneous things are just commodities themselves constituting spiritual materialism. Google that.

I see most people doing the pursuit of all kinds of things to arrive at this nondoing of entry into the tao in reality. Actually, imitating tao is being empty of oneself in the midst of ordinary affairs. Just this is using the world to refine the self. Just this is refining the self and simultaneously awaiting the time(s) of celestial movement.

Don't bother to Google celestial movement.❤

ed note: split up paragraph three and four; typo p.4

Edited August 10, 2014 by deci belle

[Nungali]

This stuff isn't new. How about getting on topic, Nungali and stop your ranting. Get to the point, hmmmm?

 

Nah, poking me wont work I made my point and it wasnt a rant it was in response to the questioned validity of my opinion on the topic at hand

[Nungali]

 

In terms of the OP… if nobody objects~

It's not just these irrelevancies, cultivation is itself peripheral.

There is nothing to cultivate.

I can only go by what I know, and that is the unequivocality that nothing can be done about it (arriving at harmony in the tao).

I can't help but notice the big disclaimer at the heart of your question… that is, "IF one was in total harmony…" You say with the tao, but I am correcting your presumption as there is no "with". There is no separation, which is why it cannot be grasped. It is already your nature. You just need to see that yourself. And to do that, you must stop. Learning to stop action based on views of self and other relative to a false separate imaginary self is self-refinement. THAT'S CULTIVATION.

So all the BS you mentioned in the OP is frivolity in the extreme. Self-refinement is adapting impersonally to ordinary situations. That's all enlightening activity is anyway. You don't need to do anything first. Selfless adaption is inconceivable to anyone else. Nobody knows. You do it in broad daylight unbeknownst to anyone. Why shouldn't it be inconceivable to you too? It is inconceivable. When you do it, it's non-doing. If it were conceivable, it would be doing. This is using the world to refine the self in order to arrive at entry into the tao in reality. Buddhism calls this entry into inconceivability. Google it.

Not that unified enlightening function isn't already established~ yet its expression is haphazard and only very occasionally activated. Why can't people tell when enlightened mind is activated? Because delusion and enlightenment is the same mind. There are no two minds. The second reason is because people do no maintain a continuous subtle concentration observing mind, so they do not recognize when yang arises occasionally from within stillness. This is celestial movement. Self refinement is selfless response to ordinary affairs while sustaining subtle observation simultaneously awaiting the time of the spontaneous arising of the immaterial celestial yang energy from within nothingness.

"Cultivation" is really about establishing the foundation for and solidifying the basis of continuous enlightening function AS the tao in terms of onself in the world. There is nothing to do about it other than see reality as is. Pineal glands and other such nonsense are for ignoramuses. Real human beings experience these things in their sleep without even so much as knowing that the word referring to the anatomical organ has letters.

Just the approach that considers "things to do" is not only arbitrarily compensatory and erroneous in terms of harmony in the tao, it is totally barring oneself from that very inherent harmony in the tao where there is ONLY harmony in the tao before the first thought without beginning.

These programs and extraneous things are just commodities themselves constituting spiritual materialism. Google that.

I see most people doing the pursuit of all kinds of things to arrive at this nondoing of entry into the tao in reality. Actually, imitating tao is being empty of oneself in the midst of ordinary affairs. Just this is using the world to refine the self. Just this is refining the self and simultaneously awaiting the time(s) of celestial movement.

Don't bother to Google celestial movement.❤

ed note: split up paragraph three and four

 

 

Wow ! What a rant

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Ranting and raving can be seen as a sign of psychiatric illness.

 

I see a lot of it on the internet.

...

[Brian]

 

In terms of the OP if nobody objects~

<snip>

 

Nicely stated, deci! Thank you.

 

When that recognition (what a delightfully appropriate word, I think) arises, it's like, "WTF? It's that simple?"

 

After that recognition, so much of what is discussed with great enthusiasm here seems almost embarrassingly silly.

 

Until that recognition is nascent, however, your words fall on deaf ears (at least, that was the case for me...)

[GrandmasterP]

Deci seems to be flirting with nihilism here.

Maybe not, but if cultivation is unnecessary then why bother doing it?

Or doing anything else for that matter such as the reasoning process involved in arriving at any conclusion and then arguing one's position from the stance attained via said reasoning process.

IMO cultivation is important insofar as to apprehend it's unimportance one needs to do it daily, for a very long time indeed.

OK one could say, as Deci seems to do; that doing feck all is as valid because it leads to the same place.

Apprehension of the ultimate meaningless of cultivation.

I reckon not though as those are two different places to be.

1: Deci's ' Cultivation is unimportant so don't bother.' ( if I have that right if not, sorry Deci).

2: That 'is-ness' attained via diligent disciplined cultivation over a long period of time.

 

Fair enough those taking position 1 might argue that by dint of their thesis position 2 is devoid of meaning.

However those taking position 2 know what they mean and argue from experience that our position 1 people have not shared.

That is not to claim that position 2 is better than 1, it isn't , it just stems from a different place, mindset and praxis.

Edited August 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Brian]

Position 2 sonetimes paves the way for Position 1 to suddenly emerge.