Jian

[Daeluin]

 

I think the practical use of weapons (or not) in Tai Chi is to train the five elements. Sword is Water...empty hand is earth, staff is wood, spear is fire and broadsword is metal. The associated energetics then must try and express the elemental properties.

 

Depending on the type of material being used, a different "dimension" of energy must be projected into the weapon to extend one's awareness into the weapon/tip of weapon (HINT: a ting jin/tong jin reference that a certain "pesky" dragon can recirculate later as being his own concept).

 

I know this kind of talk makes many people roll their eyes, but I see this in practical with my Teacher (who walks the talk). As much as I would love to be reductionistic, I think its a fallacy to try reduce Tai Chi Chuan to fighting. It is far far more - and is as complex as the 10,000 things that rise from the interplay of yin and yang.

 

I would surmise it depends on the moves you execute. Each weapon can represent each of the five phases, depending on what you're doing with it. The wuxing phases are primarily types and vectors of motion (and more, of course -- all phenomena ultimately arise from these, if you throw in the bagua directions and yin-yang, they pretty much describe everything that can happen to anything.)

 

The taiji weapon in motion will manifest the interactions of the five phases, the eight directions, and the yin-yang dynamics. To a total of 26 types of taiji energies, times all their possible combinations. What I call a "taiji energy" is not li and not qi, it's a combination of a wuxing phase of qi with a direction of the bagua and the yin-yang dynamics manifesting at a particular moment.

 

Our physics is not equipped to describe this kind of complexity. Biophysics might, someday... if it adopts the taoist approach.

 

This.

 

Where I train we learn tai ji, bagua, xing yi... but after that we learn some of our teacher's own forms, which are a blend of bagua footwork with tai ji principle. They are very circular, and designed for multi-opponent work like bagua. But it's all about learning to take the energy cultivation to a new level. The more I get deeper into these circular forms, the more I change. The coiling, spiraling power of tai ji principle is alive in the whole body, able to come from oneness into any expression of Taomeow's 26 types of energies.

 

Tonight we were doing some staff drills and Sifu said the staff may be the wood phase, but you are all the phases, and invited us to be more dynamic in our expression of the different parts of the drill. He is always emphasizing that martial arts are to make people better people, and encouraging us to get over ourselves and develop our minds through change, discipline, and the internal.

 

In my experience in this school, one of the most healing aspects has been this full spectrum of change. Whether it is holding postures that cycle through the eight bagua energies, doing a tai ji form or other forms, it is the cycling through of multiple changes of energy that come at whatever is stuck inside me from so many angles that it cannot remain stuck for long. I may not know exactly how to identify the placement and shape and expression of this stuck energy, as it is so frequently sitting in my blind spots, but a full spectrum of change is certain to do the trick.

[Taomeow]

Tonight we were doing some staff drills and Sifu said the staff may be the wood phase, but you are all the phases, and invited us to be more dynamic in our expression of the different parts of the drill.

 

Yes, exactly -- the weapon becomes the expression of your phases. The ones you are able to manifest -- for a beginner; and the ones you choose to manifest for a seasoned practitioner.

 

I watched the James Brown movie yesterday. At one point the godfather of soul throws a tantrum trying to explain to his band what it is he wants them to do with a particular song. "What is it?" he asks the drummer pointing at his instrument. "Er... it's a drum." "That's right." He turns to the next musician: "What is this instrument you're playing?" "Um... it's a guitar." "NOOOO! It's another drum!!" he yells. Then he asks the next one: "What is it that you're playing?" "An oboe..." "NO!" "Oh... a drum?" "Yes!! Yes, dammit, it's a drum!" he yells. "Now I want all of you to remember what instrument you're playing here! You are playing a drum, understand?.." And then they finally did -- and played every instrument as though it was a drum, and as soon as they knew that what they were expressing in that song, no matter what the instrument, was the Rhythm of the Drum, they produced the sound that blew everybody away.

[Marblehead]

James is also the Father of Funk music. Even more here than in Soul all the instruments would have been drums.

[dwai]

I would surmise it depends on the moves you execute. Each weapon can represent each of the five phases, depending on what you're doing with it. The wuxing phases are primarily types and vectors of motion (and more, of course -- all phenomena ultimately arise from these, if you throw in the bagua directions and yin-yang, they pretty much describe everything that can happen to anything.)

 

The taiji weapon in motion will manifest the interactions of the five phases, the eight directions, and the yin-yang dynamics. To a total of 26 types of taiji energies, times all their possible combinations. What I call a "taiji energy" is not li and not qi, it's a combination of a wuxing phase of qi with a direction of the bagua and the yin-yang dynamics manifesting at a particular moment.

 

Our physics is not equipped to describe this kind of complexity. Biophysics might, someday... if it adopts the taoist approach.

You are right of course, but still, each weapon helps train one primary element. The Jian form seems pretty vigorous (compared to the empty hand form), yet the flow there in is water. I haven't trained the other weapons yet, though hopefully I will when my teacher is ready to teach me. The point I was trying to make is that, imho, the "application" of the forms are not apparent in their physical manifestation, it is internally only that they will reveal themselves. Also, that taiji forms are not primarily for combat/martial application - they have far more significant internal alchemical significance (provided it is taught that way).

 

By 26 taiji energies do you refer to the various Jins? That should be 36 in number, albeit they are all combinations of peng and lu essentially (with associated vectors and vibrational frequencies)?

[Marblehead]

Also, that taiji forms are not primarily for combat/martial application - they have far more significant internal alchemical significance (provided it is taught that way).

This is my understanding as well. And this is still the base of the practice, I think.

[Daeluin]

You are right of course, but still, each weapon helps train one primary element. The Jian form seems pretty vigorous (compared to the empty hand form), yet the flow there in is water. I haven't trained the other weapons yet, though hopefully I will when my teacher is ready to teach me. The point I was trying to make is that, imho, the "application" of the forms are not apparent in their physical manifestation, it is internally only that they will reveal themselves. Also, that taiji forms are not primarily for combat/martial application - they have far more significant internal alchemical significance (provided it is taught that way).

 

By 26 taiji energies do you refer to the various Jins? That should be 36 in number, albeit they are all combinations of peng and lu essentially (with associated vectors and vibrational frequencies)?

 

In addition to the 4 shantung classic forms, my school also has a five "element" form, which combines the 4 majors + empty hand into a seamless dance of the phases. I haven't learned these yet, but I agree, it seems that dancing with the weapon of a certain phase in ways which express that phase would be a good way to explore that phase deeper. And I think also to explore how to transition through all the phases even though one might have stronger gravity to one in particular, due to the weapon one is holding.

 

This is rather similar to Chinese Astrology, where the Heavenly Stem of the day we are born determines the phase we most identify with and see out from the perspective of. Thus to a metal phase person, or a person wielding a dao, the water phase is how that person expresses (metal creates water). Perhaps this explains why the dao's expression is so water-like and flowing, while the water phase jian is so piercing in its expression (water creates wood), even though the essence of the form is water-like. The same exploration can be made in terms of what the main phase controls, is controlled by, and is nourished by, and one can learn how the strengths and weaknesses of one weapon against another, and apply strategies depending on the situation. Again, not limiting to one phase alone, but understanding how to apply all the phases through mediums (the weapon and the person) biased to one.

 

I too am curious about these 26 energies. When I think about it I come up with many more. For example, even on the layer of bagua, there are more than 8 if we take into account the interaction of the pre-celestial and post-celestial. To my sense these arrangements operate on different dimensions. Also they already incorporate the 5 elements (see ho and lo diagrams). Are we using the 12 branches? The 12 branches are the five phases mixed with yin and yang, but in the earthly perspective, which following principles of the earth generates 2 extra earths. These can be simplified to the 6 directions of energy (which I think coincide with the six qi's mentioned in Zhuangzi), up, down, forward, back, left, right, each with a yin and a yang, or an inside and outside, expansion and contraction.

 

I can think of lots of ways to blend and balance the different arrangements (though to me they are somewhat infinite in expression), but I can't quite hone in on "26". Perhaps Taomeow is willing to share more about this framework.

[joeblast]

Yes, exactly -- the weapon becomes the expression of your phases. The ones you are able to manifest -- for a beginner; and the ones you choose to manifest for a seasoned practitioner.

 

I watched the James Brown movie yesterday. At one point the godfather of soul throws a tantrum trying to explain to his band what it is he wants them to do with a particular song. "What is it?" he asks the drummer pointing at his instrument. "Er... it's a drum." "That's right." He turns to the next musician: "What is this instrument you're playing?" "Um... it's a guitar." "NOOOO! It's another drum!!" he yells. Then he asks the next one: "What is it that you're playing?" "An oboe..." "NO!" "Oh... a drum?" "Yes!! Yes, dammit, it's a drum!" he yells. "Now I want all of you to remember what instrument you're playing here! You are playing a drum, understand?.." And then they finally did -- and played every instrument as though it was a drum, and as soon as they knew that what they were expressing in that song, no matter what the instrument, was the Rhythm of the Drum, they produced the sound that blew everybody away.

which is kinda funny, because I told the new drummer the opposite the other day - see that part there, toms, yeah....but pay attention to the guitar picking...play it like you are playing that guitar

 

too funny

[dwai]

which is kinda funny, because I told the new drummer the opposite the other day - see that part there, toms, yeah....but pay attention to the guitar picking...play it like you are playing that guitar

 

too funny

You should check out John McLaughlin's DVD titled "Gateway to Rhythm" -- http://www.amazon.com/John-McLaughlin-The-Gateway-Rhythm/dp/B000SUKPFM/ref=pd_bxgy_mov_img_y

 

[mYTHmAKER]

I bought a sword - thanks for all the input

 

[Taomeow]

I bought a sword - thanks for all the input

 

10694191_741045899283300_6154669965114690924_o.jpg

 

Great picture! What did you buy?

 

Do they allow the use of a weapon in a public place in New York, or are you just taking your chances and watching out for the cops?

[doc benway]

I bought a sword - thanks for all the input

 

10694191_741045899283300_6154669965114690924_o.jpg

Very nice photo and posture!

[PLB]

Great picture! What did you buy?

 

Do they allow the use of a weapon in a public place in New York, or are you just taking your chances and watching out for the cops?

That is Columbus Park. All kinds of things happen there that would not be a good idea trying elsewhere.

[mYTHmAKER]

Great picture! What did you buy?

 

Do they allow the use of a weapon in a public place in New York, or are you just taking your chances and watching out for the cops?

After sending back a few jian that were supposed to stand on point and didn't and were much too flexible for my taste - I told myself enough is enough and went back to my local store which had nothing I liked the last time I visited. To my delight they had the one pictured. It stands on point - flexes slightly when thrusting - the balance feels great. It has bats on the guard - "Lucky Bat Sword". I don't know the manufacturer - there are no etched symbols on the blade only tiny lettering that says made in China. and only $40.

As to using weapons in The park it doesn't seem to be a problem - the park is in Chinatown and many people are using weapons. No one has ever said anything. In fact we call the police to stop the smoking - against the law in public spaces.

[mYTHmAKER]

That is Columbus Park. All kinds of things happen there that would not be a good idea trying elsewhere.

Come to the pavilion in the park - my teacher is there Saturday and Sunday fro about 10 am - 5 pm

I arrive about 1:30. We will be moving indoors for the winter soon

[PLB]

Come to the pavilion in the park - my teacher is there Saturday and Sunday fro about 10 am - 5 pm

I arrive about 1:30. We will be moving indoors for the winter soon

I will come, probably Saturday.

Thank you for the invitation.

[Taomeow]

As to using weapons in The park it doesn't seem to be a problem - the park is in Chinatown and many people are using weapons. No one has ever said anything. In fact we call the police to stop the smoking - against the law in public spaces.

 

As pioneered by Rudy Giuliani, the relentless cigar smoker, recipient of the Cigar Rights of America Award and lifetime membership. Quod licet Iovi, so to speak.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Taomeow

[mYTHmAKER]

As pioneered by Rudy Giuliani, the relentless cigar smoker, recipient of the Cigar Rights of America Award and lifetime membership. Quod licet Iovi, so to speak.

Rudy deserves the anal retentive reward - a dangerous man

I also find it interesting how much credit he gets for showing up at 9/11.

That was his job and any politician knows to show up where the action is.

He rode that one for all it was worth.

 

BTW is was Mike Bloomberg who set up the no smoking laws.

Edited October 29, 2014 by mYTHmAKER

[Taomeow]

Rudy deserves the anal retentive reward - a dangerous man

I also find it interesting how much credit he gets for showing up at 9/11.

That was his job and any politician knows to show up where the action is.

He rode that one for all it was worth.

 

BTW is was Mike Bloomberg who set up the no smoking laws.

I was still there in '95 when Rudy proposed it as I recall. Same gang, Bloomberg, whatever, faces change, agendas just get pushed further by each new... um... facehole. I started out in New York under Koch. That's the last face I can remember.

[mYTHmAKER]

I was still there in '95 when Rudy proposed it as I recall. Same gang, Bloomberg, whatever, faces change, agendas just get pushed further by each new... um... facehole. I started out in New York under Koch. That's the last face I can remember.

The no smoking ban was signed into law by Bloomberg.

I think it is wonderful that he did so.

[Taomeow]

.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Taomeow