Jian

[ChiDragon]

For the purpose of Neigong like a Tai Ji practioner, one has to deal with the principles of Yang/Yin which require to take advantage of the weight of the sword. With a flexible sword, the Yang attribute cannot be executed because of it's lightness. Unfortunately, one can only execute the Yin attribute with a flexible sword. However, it is wonderful to watch a feminine performance with a flexible sword without interference by the weight of the sword.

 

With a metallic rigid sword, a Neigong practitioner shall be able to handle the sword like a flexible one. During the performance, one should feel the rigid sword like a feather with no weight. Of course, at some point, one should feel the heaviness and the lightness(no weight) of the sword.

 

To make a metallic rigid sword feel like a feather, sometimes, in the air requires the understanding of Ting Jin(聽勁). In order to Ting Jin, one need to have some experience in Tai Ji to know Dong Jin(懂勁). Ting Jin is to feel the weight of the sword at every moment when the sword is in the hand. While the sword is in motion with the hand, the hand should try to make the weight to be as light as possible.

 

How can you do that....??? I would like to hear some thoughts from those who have practiced Tai Ji with "push hands" for years and tell me. This is a test for those who had claimed that they knew "push hands".

Edited August 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Wu Ming Jen]

Chi Dragon, When the sword is in motion it is directed with centrifugal force created by the resistance of the ground and proper waist movements. The waste acts like a large gear, the hands becoming smaller faster fly wheels. At this point the sword is weightless in motion.

 

If the sword becomes heavy stick and follow to avoid force on force, lead the opponents force to emptiness. Once the force is exhausted strike without delay.

[ChiDragon]

Chi Dragon, When the sword is in motion it is directed with centrifugal force created by the resistance of the ground and proper waist movements. The waste acts like a large gear, the hands becoming smaller faster fly wheels. At this point the sword is weightless in motion.

 

If the sword becomes heavy stick and follow to avoid force on force, lead the opponents force to emptiness. Once the force is exhausted strike without delay.

 

Wu Ming Jen....

Ah, thank you! You are applying the law of physics. The centrifugal force requires a tight grip on the sword with the hand. During practice, one is holding the sword all the time; the arms may get sore and tired from the weight of the sword. What I was asking, what can one do to avoid fighting the weight of the sword all the time. If one can cut down the time in fighting the weight of the sword, then, the arms will have a less chance of getting fatigue quickly or less stress on the arms.

Edited August 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

 

Wu Ming Jen....

Ah, thank you! You are applying the law of physics. The centrifugal force requires a tight grip on the sword with the hand. During practice, one is holding the sword all the time; the arms may get sore and tired from the weight of the sword. What I was asking, what can one do to avoid fighting the weight of the sword all the time. If one can cut down the time in fighting the weight of the sword, then, the arms will have a less chance of getting fatigue quickly or less stress on the arms.

Why would you fight the weight of the sword? A tight grip will transfer and fatigue your muscles. I thought you were a tui sho master

[ChiDragon]

Why would you fight the weight of the sword? A tight grip will transfer and fatigue your muscles. I thought you were a tui sho master

 

Literally, when you hold a heavy sword, don't you consider its weight is working against you....???

 

Please be more specific about this: "A tight grip will transfer and fatigue your muscles."

Is that a statement or a question...???

 

Please tell me what you know and never mind what I am or assume what I know or don't know....!!! Thank you.

Edited August 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

 

Literally, when you hold a heavy sword, don't you consider its weight is working against you....???

 

Please be more specific about this: "A tight grip will transfer and fatigue your muscles."

Is that a statement or a question...???

 

Please tell me what you know and never mind what I am or assume what I know or don't know....!!! Thank you.

usually a question is followed by a question mark in polite society.

Please stop playing games, stop playing teacher, stop making believe you are the authority.

If you wish to share what you know it is most welcome.

[ChiDragon]

Likewise to you. I have no problems with others. I don't what we (you and I) are doing here at all.

PS.....
Are we talking about how to handle a Jian here or what an ass I'm....???

Edited August 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

Likewise to you. I have no problems with others. I don't what we (you and I) are doing here at all.

 

PS.....

Are we talking about how to handle a Jian here or what an ass I'm....???

I am here because i started this thread.

Why you are here ?

Again if you have information to share - share - don't go around giving little pop quiz's.

Tell - give information - ask if you don't know.

[doc benway]

Obviously a woman with a sword does not have this venue for projection... so sometimes a sword is just a sword, and if it's flexible, this symbolizes her qi and can be a more complete symbol for self -- "flexible like me" rather than "rigid like my..."

 

That probably explains my aversion to floppy swords!

 

 

Of course! I didn't mean a rigid blade is not a good thing -- I meant a flexible one is not an inferior thing.

 

I'm a beginner with jian, so my ideas are largely theoretical (drawing on the overall taoist principles and taijiquan principles in particular), plus what my teacher says, plus what limited sensory input I got so far. I would surmise that a flexible and a rigid blade would serve different purposes, both in external (which we are in the wrong century to test empirically) and internal applications. E.g. it seems to me that a rigid blade can help with skills of "control," a flexible one, "adaptability." Also it depends on the style. I've no Yang but I have a feeling that a rigid sword is more Yang, a flexible one, more Chen. I may be wrong of course.

 

In more seriousness, I always avoided floppy swords under the assumption that they were inferior for fencing and fighting.

I am open to the possibility that there may have been masters who could fight with a floppy sword, although it would take some persuading for me to let go of that particular bias.

[doc benway]

The centrifugal force requires a tight grip on the sword with the hand.

 

In my experience, many movements with the jian, even some very basic ones, are impossible with a tight grip on the sword.

Like in the empty hand form and martial application, there is Song in the grip until the moment of striking when there is brief and explosive tension. Not too dissimilar with the jian.

The broadsword, on the other hand, requires a tighter grip and the tight grip is not as limiting because of the way it is wielded.

[Marblehead]

That probably explains my aversion to floppy swords!

 

 

 

In more seriousness, I always avoided floppy swords under the assumption that they were inferior for fencing and fighting.

I am open to the possibility that there may have been masters who could fight with a floppy sword, although it would take some persuading for me to let go of that particular bias.

Most, if not all, Tai Chi practice swords are floppy. Not as heavy so one does not tire from the weight as quickly as well as it is easy to get that swishing sound from a floppy sword.

 

There have been some Japanese and Chinese swordsmiths who have created very thin, and therefore floppy, blades but those take a long time to make and are very expensive. (These are the ones that can be honed to razor-edge sharpness and hold their edge a very long time.)

[Marblehead]

Nice. I believe this is it http://www.totalmartialartsupplies.com/ching-emperor-straight-sword

A little oil and fine sand paper will clean up the blade

I would suggest against sand paper and rather recommend a fine steel wool. 100% mineral oil (intestinal lubricant) is excellent for coating after cleaning and sharpening. Linseed oil is good for the wood hanlde.

[mYTHmAKER]

I would suggest against sand paper and rather recommend a fine steel wool. 100% mineral oil (intestinal lubricant) is excellent for coating after cleaning and sharpening. Linseed oil is good for the wood hanlde.

A friend had a sword with rust spots. Steel wool was okay, however, a fine sandpaper and a little oil cleaned it up beautifully - no

marks from the sand paper.

[Marblehead]

A friend had a sword with rust spots. Steel wool was okay, however, a fine sandpaper and a little oil cleaned it up beautifully - no

marks from the sand paper.

True. It really depends on how deep the rust is that will determine the best material to use.

 

I bought a few assassin and ornamental daggers that were in such horrible shape that I had to get my "Dremel" tool out in order to get down to the metal through the rust.

 

I do keep a large variety of sand paper grits but try to use them as little as possible, especially if the steel wool will do the job.

 

And yes, a very fine grit (320) sand paper can be used for finishing and if done properly will leave no scratches but I still prefer steel wool.

[doc benway]

Most, if not all, Tai Chi practice swords are floppy. Not as heavy so one does not tire from the weight as quickly as well as it is easy to get that swishing sound from a floppy sword.

 

There have been some Japanese and Chinese swordsmiths who have created very thin, and therefore floppy, blades but those take a long time to make and are very expensive. (These are the ones that can be honed to razor-edge sharpness and hold their edge a very long time.)

 

Are you sure about that?

I know a bit about Japanese swords and have never come across or heard of a floppy one.

Furthermore, the only way to have a very sharp edge that holds up is to have a very hard edge.

In steel making, hard=brittle.

In Japanese sword making the edge portion is very hard and brittle, the outer steel of the back portion is also fairly hard, and the core steel is softer and more flexible. But that does not equate to floppy, it just equates to durability in use. There is no visible or palpable movement or vibration in the blade of a Japanese sword when wielded, at least not the ones made from ~800AD through the present in the "samurai" style. Although you can bend them if you try. Within a very narrow range they will return to original shape but beyond that they will bend and stay bent.

[Taomeow]

That probably explains my aversion to floppy swords!

 

 

 

In more seriousness, I always avoided floppy swords under the assumption that they were inferior for fencing and fighting.

I am open to the possibility that there may have been masters who could fight with a floppy sword, although it would take some persuading for me to let go of that particular bias.

 

I think "floppy" and "flexible" are almost opposites. Floppy flops as it wants to. Flexible flexes as I want it to. (And if one wants a rigid weapon that dictates to you how to use it because it is... well... inflexible -- then why not play baseball instead of taiji? )

 

Seriously though, I've come to taiji from taekwondo, and a rigid sword feels sort of like a taekwondo punch, straightforward, it can aim where it aims and it hits or misses -- end of story. A taiji punch does not end where it lands, it can curve around its target and strike the next, and the next -- like water, it flexes toward where it wants to go. You can't really block it -- it can go around the block, over, under -- it does not necessarily need to break through. It is my impression -- but, like I said, my jian experience is too limited so it's no more than impression at this point -- that there's similar dynamics involved with a flexible blade that can not only pierce but slice wherever you want, at an angle you choose.

 

So... convinced yet?

[Daeluin]

I wonder if as one masters use of Qi inside of a weapon, if the physical properties of that weapon matter quite as much any more.

 

Perhaps a flexible weapon can be made straight when the compressed qi inside of it is "frozen", and thus block or hack, but also be maneuvered over and around the opponent's defenses using it's ability to be flexible.

 

I've come across the idea that at a high enough level, one may simply pick up a stick, fill it with Qi, and it will not break when used as a sword in a fight. Or perhaps even one's sword hand used to project qi into the air, like a light saber. Hehehe. Just ideas, but I'm not one to rule anything out just because it sounds fantastic beyond my ability to comprehend.

[PLB]

I am not into jian. I am more interested in dao/sabre or One Sided sharpened sword or the long knives of Thailand. Turning the one edge to the new threat is more my thing.

But this discussion of flexibility versus rigidity does call for some one to talk about the metalurgical qualities of folded steel.

There is a resiliance in metal that is beaten out, folded on to itself, and beaten out again that is not like anything else. I have a very hard steel machete that I practice with and I like it very much. But it is not a folded steel object. It has very little deflection. It cuts things softer than itself with ease. It would shatter if it struck stone. The folded steel of China, Japan, and Toledo can be sharpened to an incredibly fine level and yet still withstand very gross blows made by all kinds of weopons, stone walls, or seashells that happened to get in the way.

Now I suppose this observation may well involve how a sword is used in an internal art. But I only could say anything true about what happens to me.

If I am correct in what I perceive.

[Marblehead]

Are you sure about that?

There's not all that much I'm really sure of.

 

But I have read this:

 

http://www.theswordguy.com/samurai-sword-history.html

 

I do not have any Japanese swords myself. All mine are Chinese.

 

 

Edit to add: Okay, I should be using the word "flexible" instead of "floppy".

Edited August 10, 2014 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

... China, Japan, and Toledo ...

Don't forget Damascus.

[doc benway]

There's not all that much I'm really sure of.

 

But I have read this:

 

http://www.theswordguy.com/samurai-sword-history.html

 

I do not have any Japanese swords myself. All mine are Chinese.

 

 

Edit to add: Okay, I should be using the word "flexible" instead of "floppy".

Flexible's probably more accurate with the Japanese stuff... and with the real nihonto, the flexibility is very subtle...

If you want a chance to see and learn more about nihonto, there is a nice exhibition until the end of the month in Delray Beach and a great, annual Japanese sword show in Tampa every February...

http://www.southeastshowsauctions.com

[Marblehead]

The museum looks like it would be as nice place to visit on a Saturday.

 

I never had a lot of interest in the Japanese weaponry and even with the Chinese I did the research before I bought my swords but I have forgotten most of what I learned after having bought the swords I wanted to put into my collection.

 

When I first got started I thought I would buy antiques but after seeing some of the prices on them I realized I was in the wrong money bracket for that and settled for replicas.

[Brian]

Chi Dragon, When the sword is in motion it is directed with centrifugal force created by the resistance of the ground and proper waist movements. The waste acts like a large gear, the hands becoming smaller faster fly wheels. At this point the sword is weightless in motion.

 

If the sword becomes heavy stick and follow to avoid force on force, lead the opponents force to emptiness. Once the force is exhausted strike without delay.

 

Wu Ming Jen....

Ah, thank you! You are applying the law of physics. The centrifugal force requires a tight grip on the sword with the hand. During practice, one is holding the sword all the time; the arms may get sore and tired from the weight of the sword. What I was asking, what can one do to avoid fighting the weight of the sword all the time. If one can cut down the time in fighting the weight of the sword, then, the arms will have a less chance of getting fatigue quickly or less stress on the arms.

>*** Start Pedantic Interjection ***<

>* Not centripetalcentrifugal force, inertia. *<

>*** End Pedantic Interjection ***<

 

 

EDIT: The phrase "centrifugal force" is so wrong that I have trouble even typing it when I'm busting it! Fixed above...

[zerostao]

i like this and its on sale http://www.wle.com/products/W023HQ.html semi-flexible

 

made by the Shen family in Long chuan village.

[Brian]

I feel inclined to buy one of these plastic jobs just for the value of the description under the photos!

 

The Best Little Swords House in Texas