What to practice? knowing or knowing?

[dwai]

Greetings friends,

 

I've been musing over the difference between knowing something intellectually and simply knowing.

For example -- you are walking down the street and you look at the sky and see it cloudy and smell moisture in the air and intellectually know that it might rain.

Or you might be walking on a bright and sunny day and suddenly something tells you it's going to rain (not a cloud in sight, etc). There is a difference between these two kinds of knowing.

 

Similar knowing exists in esoteric practices and spiritual traditions as well. We can read a sutra or a classic and ponder over it intellectually (and thus think we know it), but then the actual form or asana is practiced and suddenly the true meaning of what a sutra or tai-chi classic referred to becomes clear as day (my Aikido sensei used to call it a Zen moment).

 

I would like to read your (all who bother to read this thread and want to respond) opinion on this matter.

 

Regards

[rain]

Greetings friends,

 

I've been musing over the difference between knowing something intellectually and simply knowing.

For example -- you are walking down the street and you look at the sky and see it cloudy and smell moisture in the air and intellectually know that it might rain.

Or you might be walking on a bright and sunny day and suddenly something tells you it's going to rain (not a cloud in sight, etc). There is a difference between these two kinds of knowing.

 

Similar knowing exists in esoteric practices and spiritual traditions as well. We can read a sutra or a classic and ponder over it intellectually (and thus think we know it), but then the actual form or asana is practiced and suddenly the true meaning of what a sutra or tai-chi classic referred to becomes clear as day (my Aikido sensei used to call it a Zen moment).

 

I would like to read your (all who bother to read this thread and want to respond) opinion on this matter.

 

Regards

................ Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[dwai]

But if you are asking for the knowing awareness in deep meditation

I would have to say that for me at least this is yeat another "frame"

because here. - there is nothing

but awareness

 

and it is this awareness

 

in the pinetrees breath

 

- this awareness

that pulsates behind the pictures and sounds in my mind and intellect..

I dont know it fully yet, may never do..

it feels connected to my heart, but then again my heart is hurt

 

Hi Rain,

 

Beautifully put!

Thank you.

 

It is this "knowing" that I am trying to track down/understand (albeit that can be a bit of conundrum, given that it is something that cannot be intellectualized). When the intellectual knowing stops, is when the intuitive knowing starts (i like to call this second knowing the intuitive knowing). When doing your practice, do you use the intellect or the intuition then?

 

I find it hard to reconcile between the intellectually "inferred" and the intuitively gleamed.

 

Regards

[Todd]

Intuitive knowing is the movement that we are when we do not know. It can have an intellectual component, which we often call a realization. The intellectual component can also just be discrimination operating, like knowing what words refer to, or knowing to stop at red lights instead of green lights. Knowing is not believing any particular element of this intellectual functioning is true, or that things should change at a particular time, or should not change. That is the danger inherent in thought, that we might think it is true. It gets really seductive when it comes in the form of transcendent or all encompassing realizations. Not believing (or not knowing in the conventional sense) allows movement in accord with truth, which seems so right, but can never be grasped and made right forever. To keep knowing we remain as we are, still and ever, moving.

 

 

 

 

Blah, blah blah...

[rain]

It is this "knowing" that I am trying to track down/understand (albeit that can be a bit of conundrum, given that it is something that cannot be intellectualized). When the intellectual knowing stops, is when the intuitive knowing starts (i like to call this second knowing the intuitive knowing). When doing your practice, do you use the intellect or the intuition then?

 

I find it hard to reconcile between the intellectually "inferred" and the intuitively gleamed.

 

awareness stretching out like cosmos towards omnipresence

still able to focus sharply at pointpresence...science is trying to resolve it, seems like our awareness is influencing waves and particles..

tricky..

 

in meditation i do neither. if you like, see description of praxis in detail in earlier thread.

[mYTHmAKER]

He who knows, knows not.

he who doesn't know, knows.

[freeform]

It is this "knowing" that I am trying to track down/understand (albeit that can be a bit of conundrum, given that it is something that cannot be intellectualized). When the intellectual knowing stops, is when the intuitive knowing starts (i like to call this second knowing the intuitive knowing). When doing your practice, do you use the intellect or the intuition then?

 

I find it hard to reconcile between the intellectually "inferred" and the intuitively gleamed.

 

Regards

 

Hi Dwai

 

What you're referring to as 'intuitive knowing' is what some people call 'body wisdom'... the key here is that it comes from the body...

 

we operate using 3 primary senses - visual, auditory, and kinesthetic... As a western society we're predominantly visual and auditory and pretty much disregard the kinesthetic aspect as superstition.

 

you say you find it hard to work out what is intellectual and what is intuitive - the intuitive part of us resides in the belly and the heart, the intellectual part resides in the head - it's almost impossible to experientially separate the 3 of them - you always have a bit of intellectual attention even in your most intuitive moments, and even when you're completely stuck in your head with intellectual thoughts, there is always an intuitive aspect quietly attending to the moment and communicating back (even if we dont hear)

 

Because everything around us (media, parents, schools, social customs etc) tends to drive us up to our heads, we've learned to lead our life mainly from our head down - our heads are busy, noisy, full of desires and attempts to control. Our wisest part is our belly and we seldom pay attention to it because our heads are constantly trying to escape the fact that it was never in control and that you cant avoid pain and only get pleasure (which is the predominant task of our head these days)

 

anyway I'm rambling off topic here - I'll get back to the point - your intuitive part is the part of you that feels - the kinesthetic sense. The intuitive centre is predominantly in the belly (the heart has an emotional sort of wisdom). Qi gong is all about the belly, intuition and simple unforced awareness which is what the belly provides. To improve your intuitive knowledge you can learn to meditate in a way that quietens your mind chatter (and just paying attention to your breathing can do this) - and of course qi gong can open up the huge reserves of untapped 'intuitiveness' hidden in your body... You dont want to completely ignore the mind, you just need it to be in balance with the rest of You.

[doc benway]

Very good question Dwai...

It's like the difference between doing the taiji form vs feeling that the taiji form is doing me.

It's like using my intellect to guide me through the postures vs using the one point to feel the qi flowing through the postures.

Like the difference between doing nothing and not-doing.

I wonder if there is a parallel with yin/yang - yin is intuitive and receptive, opening to subtle influences without trying or causing, yang is more analytical, intellectual, taking initiative to explore, inquire, analyze.

Very cool question to ponder...

Steve

[mbanu]

"Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles" does not mean give up learning and replace it with magical thinking. This is a common pitfall. I like to believe that fighting this is what induced the Zen Buddhists to invent Keisaku.