Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[SecretGrotto]

No worries I found the following at http://all-dao.com/heavenly-circle.html:

 

"These practitioners, feeling as "qi moves through the channels Ren and Du", accelerate the process of loss of their own Jing. This is a way of speeding up the approach of death, it does a lot of harm and has no benefits. It's just a wrong, a “side-road” method of practice.

 

Our School of Wu Chung-Xu – Liu Hua-yang teaches a dual perfection of Xing and Ming, and what is called "heavenly circle" - it is really the "heavenly circle of the elixir’s way. " Once a student of the School produces a "true seed", then it will be not qi but rather the “true water” that will circulate through the Ren and Du Meridians, also the locations of its awareness will be different too. In the elixir way these channels are passed using the qi of the Previous sky, in that process of circulation from top to bottom a "sweet dew" will flow, directly sinking into the lower Dantian, and it happens in reality, not in imagination."

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that all these warnings, even in classical texts, refer to clear violations of common sense based on understood mechanisms. So one has to be weary to not make blanket statements without really knowing the nature of the specific situation at hand.

 

For example, in the above, if someone feels like Qi is moving in SHO, but it leaks Jing and is harmful, then the situation must be one of clear deviation where the practitioner is probably forcing a visualization with strong breath so as to actually move what seems to be the SHO. When in reality, he is clearly just expending energy to achieve a forced result, as opposed to the SHO actually starting on its own after sensible practice and progress over a relatively long time.

 

The same with sitting meditation being a false practice. I appreciate that one of the 8 Immortals says it's false or whatever, but one shouldn't throw logic out of the window and possibly misinterpret what could just be a hyperbolic statement blown out of proportion. Be scientific, look at people's results, like Wang Liping's students. Can we really discredit countless accounts of opening the SHO under the supervision of a widely regarded Master as daydreams and imaginings?

 

I'm specifically thinking of decades of teaching document by Shen Laoshi, Wang Lipings disciple, and how he manages with Daigong group meditation to open hundreds of people's SHO stably and lasting in just a couple of days? Are they all mentally deranged, and are their attainments and efforts to be disregarded?

 

Sure, maybe "fake" Neidan teachings do have flaws that will get you stuck at certain stages of the Internal Alchemy process, but if people can reach opening their real SHO with "fake" teachings, then wouldn't you call that a good start. Then, maybe, if you fail to create the Foetus you can turn to WLP and get some "real" teachings.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/155949681/Komjathy-Louis-Cultivating-Perfection-Mysticism-and-Self-Transformation-in-Early-Quanzhen-Daoism#scribd

 

That's the book that is recommended - Louis Komjathy's 2007 Ph.D. thesis published.

 

I was referred to in this thread - but hilariously the person inaccurately portrayed what I was saying. haha.

 

As for Taoist Yoga being a mistranslation - that's an accusation with no evidence presented. Not a very good practice in my opinion.

 

If you want to make an accusation please provide some evidence.

 

So I searched on my own - and I found the grandson of the author recommending Taoist Yoga as the grandson is continuing the teaching of the author.

 

I found some people saying that the Taoist Yoga book is incomplete. Maybe so - but can anyone provide the missing information?

 

I mean it's easy to be a critic - but what's the solution?

 

I just perused the Komjathy tome and sure it has a chapter that is the translation of a teaching and that's lots of great info to be sure.

 

Is it better than Taoist Yoga as a teaching manual? I guess it all depends.

 

I blogged my response on this in further detail http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/cultivating-perfection-recommended.html

 

The qigong master said he was confident I could succeed and now having made this discovery from Taoist Yoga based on studying the text in further detail - I too am fairly confident I can succeed.

 

But obviously everyone is coming at this from their own perspectives. I'm just passing on what I have learned.

 

All I can say is only the Taoist Yoga book has paid off for me and it's been just what I needed right now.

[voidisyinyang]

I'll add too - people are wondering what are valid signs of progress?

 

First of all a basic question is can you sit in full lotus in ease?

 

Now people have all sorts of answers but the thing is that whether your bones or whatever are ossified - if you are building up the yin chi energy then you become limber like a baby again.

 

So then if you are in full lotus and say your feet go into deep pain - you should be able to make the sword fingers and just shoot qi out of your hands into your feet to clear out the blockage.

 

Now I only achieved that state for a few weeks back in 2000!

 

So - since then - I mean I still can sit in full lotus for hours non-stop but it's not the same as "in ease."

 

The qigong master said you can tell if someone is a qigong master if they can sit in full lotus in ease for as long as they want.

 

Also that includes left leg on top - I was sitting right leg on top which is still easiest. But as the qigong masters say - left leg on top opens up the liver energy more for internal focus while right leg on top is what was done for external teaching and focus - only after enlightenment is achieved.

 

so the thing is also - if I were to summarize Taoist Yoga - it does say that if you can "freeze" or fix the spirit in the lower tan tien then pretty much everything else will take care of itself.

 

The thing is that if you do really open up the SHO - then you being to have astral travel but as Taoist Yoga explains if your spirit leaves before it is enveloped in enough yang qi energy then it causes dizzy confusion - literally a spacetime vortex spinning around you.

 

So the solution is to focus more in the lower tan tien. But what other texts state - and Taoist Yoga does also but not so clearly - is that it has to be the prenatal or yuan qi from the Emptiness that guides the intentional yang qi.

 

So in other words you just keep emptying out the thoughts which is also the practice of bringing the cavity of prenatal qi into focus as the Emptiness.

 

The problem is that even if the SHO gets opened - if you're doing a visualization practice like SHO - the question becomes where do you go with your spirit? The energy practice actually accelerates as it builds up - and so that is why the Emptiness focus is crucial. It's not so much as where or what - but who is doing the practice? The Emptiness is doing the practice itself.

[SecretGrotto]

Thanks Innersoundqigong.

 

We just have to be careful when we use Neidan terms like SHO that results from "false" teachings that is not Wu Liu Pai, because as opendao will point out the SHO we reach from such "false" teachings are just the imaginings of a deranged mind.

 

Also, sitting meditation, as opendao will probably point out, cannot possibly lead to real Neidan results because of an interpretation of an ancient text. Even though hundreds of amazing yogis and masters from all times have achieved countless wonderful attainments from sitting practice, including some for whom there is strong evidence that they created their Yang Shen body like Babaji, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yukteshwar and Pranabananda as captured on yoganiketan.

 

WLP will be adamant that most of these people, even though they show time and again very worthwhile attainments, have nothing to do with WLP Neidan, and their attainments are probably not up to scratch and would be severely lacking and imaginative.

These so-called masters have done amazing things and displayed grand virtue, disseminating their techniques freely both in live teaching and in text. Maybe I'll rather waste my time pursuing their example than support an ultrasecretive system that is practically out of reach for many worldwide practitioners and that cannot find a way to communicate part of their teachings even in this modern day and age with rich media and video!

 

And if a lineage energy transmission is the secret, then a simple disclaimer could suffice; but alas, like in religion blind faith and centuries old militant tradition overrules common sense and the opportunity for cultivation of grand Virtue and to do good in the world by disseminating real teaching or part of it freely to the benefit of all mankind. Instead it seems like the objective is one of elitism, the disregard for Virtue and the inability to effectively communicate the teaching in a new age striving for upward spiritual mobility.

 

Maybe I'll rather stick with those masters who have actually showed their power, undeniably, and have given free, effective teachings. Masters like Yan Xin who openly healed thousands upon thousands of people publicly, and Wang Liping who has tremendous success leading his students into advanced neidan states.

 

Or am I taking too many liberties on your interpretation, opendao?

[opendao]

I'm specifically thinking of decades of teaching document by Shen Laoshi, Wang Lipings disciple, and how he manages with Daigong group meditation to open hundreds of people's SHO stably and lasting in just a couple of days? Are they all mentally deranged, and are their attainments and efforts to be disregarded?

 

it's normal for the qigong world, there are hundreds of such "SHO" methods and evidences (in ZYQ, for example). It's up to a seeker to distinguish qigong and neidan SHO.

 

You quoted a WLP article, but everybody reads it differently and understands very differently. So even if somebody has a list of signs, in many cases people just take what is on the surface and easy to grasp.

 

Sure, qigong is easier and more available, but I suggest to think about the words of different teachers from various schools, who insist that neidan and qigong are not the same in methods and results. Maybe they know better and it has sense to explore such things as much as possible? Rhetoric question, I understand, but I always see a tendency to skip such a hard work and to think that Taoist Yoga or Golden Flower reading is enough to practice or even teach others.

 

Sure, maybe "fake" Neidan teachings do have flaws that will get you stuck at certain stages of the Internal Alchemy process, but if people can reach opening their real SHO with "fake" teachings, then wouldn't you call that a good start. Then, maybe, if you fail to create the Foetus you can turn to WLP and get some "real" teachings.

 

The reality can be that a person won't have any chance to even start the real neidan practise after such attempts.

[opendao]

We just have to be careful when we use Neidan terms like SHO that results from "false" teachings that is not Wu Liu Pai, because as opendao will point out the SHO we reach from such "false" teachings are just the imaginings of a deranged mind.

 

there are a few mistakes here.

 

1) WLP is not the only true teaching. And I don't practice or advocate WLP btw, I learn another school.

2) except imagination which is rare, there is a postheaven qigong SHO, that is very common.

 

But you're right, it's better to be careful. LOL.

 

Also, sitting meditation, as opendao will probably point out, cannot possibly lead to real Neidan results because of an interpretation of an ancient text. Even though hundreds of amazing yogis and masters from all times have achieved countless wonderful attainments from sitting practice, including some for whom there is strong evidence that they created their Yang Shen body like Babaji, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yukteshwar and Pranabananda as captured on yoganiketan.

 

It was discuss many times, but special for you: "sitting meditation" (dazuo) longer then 10-15 mins on the early stages of practice is harmful. That's what WLP patriarch says. Did he say that all sitting practices are in vain? No, because obviously on a certain stage the practitioner has to sit. Can we use the term meditation for such practices? Not really (see any dictionary about "meditation" etymology and modern meaning). Can we use the term dazuo? Only in some schools to a certain extent. All such details have to be investigated the scientific way you like.

 

WLP will be adamant that most of these people, even though they show time and again very worthwhile attainments, have nothing to do with WLP Neidan, and their attainments are probably not up to scratch and would be severely lacking and imaginative.

These so-called masters have done amazing things and displayed grand virtue, disseminating their techniques freely both in live teaching and in text. Maybe I'll rather waste my time pursuing their example than support an ultrasecretive system that is practically out of reach for many worldwide practitioners and that cannot find a way to communicate part of their teachings even in this modern day and age with rich media and video!

 

And if a lineage energy transmission is the secret, then a simple disclaimer could suffice; but alas, like in religion blind faith and centuries old militant tradition overrules common sense and the opportunity for cultivation of grand Virtue and to do good in the world by disseminating real teaching or part of it freely to the benefit of all mankind. Instead it seems like the objective is one of elitism, the disregard for Virtue and the inability to effectively communicate the teaching in a new age striving for upward spiritual mobility.

 

Can you imagine for a second that neidan lineages can have absolutely different approach to Virtue-De and that they are not looking for a "spiritual mobility" of any sort? The real teaching is disseminating the same way it has been happening for centuries, but obviously it's not the way you prefer to see. It's very common, the way you think. Find a teacher, learn neidan, then return and tell us if you still insist on your pov.

 

Real Virtue-De and Dao, they are much more complex then our common sense western thoughts based on humanism, tolerance, egalite-fraternite etc.

 

Maybe I'll rather stick with those masters who have actually showed their power, undeniably, and have given free, effective teachings. Masters like Yan Xin who openly healed thousands upon thousands of people publicly, and Wang Liping who has tremendous success leading his students into advanced neidan states.

 

please stick with what you prefer. At least there is a logic in your opinion. But try not to mix publicity, affordability, availability, "spiritual mobility", healing, power and Dao, as the ultimate result of Daoist training. Then probably you will be able to understand who is Wang Liping in the neidan tradition today. And what is the neidan tradition is all about. It's possible to do it even using books.

[opendao]

As for Taoist Yoga being a mistranslation - that's an accusation with no evidence presented. Not a very good practice in my opinion.

 

If you want to make an accusation please provide some evidence.

 

So you've read the Chinese text, compared it with the English book and found no mistakes? Really?

 

My point was that TY _for some people_ is not good at all. It's not an "accusation", it's a hint. Don't worry, it's not for you.

 

I think for you TY is a real gem on the way, and can really help.

[opendao]

one good man from our school has already done the research and compared the English Taoist Yoga book and the original Chinese text. A few examples:

 

1)

 

第 二 法 诀 玉 鼎 金 炉

2 THE MICROCOSMIC CAULDRON AND STOVE

 

Where the word "microcosmic" was taken from? It's obviously not in the text.

 

2) same second chapter:

前 对 脐 轮 后 对 肾 ，中 间 有 个 真 金 炉 。
十 字 街 前 安 玉 鼎 ， 神 气 之 宅 呼 吸 根 。
玉 鼎 者 ， 正 在 两 耳 尖 上 之 中 心 方 寸 玉 枕 之 中 心 ， 是 元 神 室 也 。
金 炉 者 ， 正 在 肾 前 脐 后 ， 两 胯 上 之 中 心 ， 此 是 真 金 炉 也 。
此 炉 是 真 气 穴 ， 《 黄 庭 经 》 云 “ 上 有 黄 庭 上 关 元 ， 后 有 幽 阙 前 命 门 ” 是 也 。
此 窍 是 存 神 养 气 之 所 妙 处 ， 将 祖 气 藏 在 窍 内 ， 若 藏 非 藏 ， 若 无 非 无 ， 心 意 不 可 胡 思 乱 想 ， 呼 吸 之 气 随 意 出 入 而 为 正 功 。
玉 鼎 正在 大 脑 中 心 ， 内 藏 一 胞 ， 为 先 天 真 性 所 居 之 处 ，
即 元神 室 也 。

 

translation in Taoist Yoga book:

The precious cauldron (yu ting) is a cavity in the centre of the brain (between and behind the eyes) and is the seat of (essential) nature, that is the original cavity of spirit (yuan shen shih or the ancestral cavity, tsu ch'iao);

 

As you see first 6 sentences were just skipped. You can translate them and see that they are important.

 

And there are more examples like that. That's why I don't recommend TY book and don't share optimism of some people who are trying to teach others based on such sources I can say more about practices or the author's lineage, but I think for normal people it's enough to be careful in choosing the knowledge sources.

[Yae]

So the solution is to focus more in the lower tan tien. But what other texts state - and Taoist Yoga does also but not so clearly - is that it has to be the prenatal or yuan qi from the Emptiness that guides the intentional yang qi.

 

Hey Innersound, so are you saying that by un-focusing into the emptiness, all the necessary energy movements will take place? Would this also be the means to build the yang shen to avoid things like the world spinning around you? Because the postheaven jing wouldn't be enough for that right?

 

And don't you say that celibacy builds conserves the pre-heaven energy? Neidan practitioners here are saying that isn't necessary* because once you learn the preheaven energy building methods, your energy builds faster than it can deplete*. Sounds nice right?

 

Ah but conserving the pre-heaven energy isn't really enough is it? We would have a way to build it up, or else the amount we have right now would be enough and we'd just have to conserve it.

 

I've asked Master Lin if any of his practices, like going into the emptiness maybe, build the preheaven energy but this was just a few days ago so I'm waiting for a reply.

 

*http://thetaobums.com/topic/35815-minor-schools-and-inconsistent-methods-from-zhong-l-chuan-dao-ji/ (translated textual reference about celibacy not being necessary)

 

*the comment about the energy building faster than it depletes was opendao's, on some other discussion, I don't remember where but could find it if you want. but it's not a text refernce or anything.

 

So in other words you just keep emptying out the thoughts which is also the practice of bringing the cavity of prenatal qi into focus as the Emptiness.

 

Opendao, what does your school think of this? Focus, or non-focus, on the emptiness? Though I think many would consider that meditation. Also fasting isn't advised in your school I think, but SFQ uses fasting to go into the emptiness.

 

Jaci Gran of SFQ said the experience of the losing the feeling of your body during meditation is an experience of going into the emptiness. I felt that while fasting.

 

The problem is that even if the SHO gets opened - if you're doing a visualization practice like SHO - the question becomes where do you go with your spirit? The energy practice actually accelerates as it builds up - and so that is why the Emptiness focus is crucial. It's not so much as where or what - but who is doing the practice? The Emptiness is doing the practice itself.

 

Innersound, but how do you go into the emptiness while doing visualization? Do you just set it in motion and then do it? I thought it was good in SFQ to have constant focus on seeing-feeling the energy.

[voidisyinyang]

The big point of Taoist Yoga is that as a person starts building up their yin chi energy then what happens is that there has to also be increased purification.

 

So if there are any impurities they have to be purified during the day - before the midnight practice as the alchemical agent.

 

So the midnight practice as the alchemical agent is the Emptiness practice.

 

Now the best way to do the purification is through the quick fire technique and this deep fast reverse breathing is best achieved through standing active exercises.

 

So Taoist Yoga makes this emphasis - if there is just mind meditation then the alchemical agent gets lost because the practiser didn't do that deep fast reverse breathing. The spirit on its own is not strong enough to drive up the yin chi energy to purify.

 

And so based on this understanding - of course celibacy has to be maintained. Even if a person is young and chaste it still takes 10 months of building up the energy to get to the Tai Chi.

 

So Taoist Yoga is very explicit - this is not just restoring the energy so that the person can basically be reproductive again - on the contrary - you have to go way beyond that - for a middle age man it would be 18 months of building up the energy.

 

Not only that - even if you have no emissions - you can still lose yin chi energy out of the body via any of the lower emotions - like if a person "gets a rise" out of you by getting you angry - that is a way they are taking your energy - or various other means.

 

So to store up the energy is quite difficult - and this is why traditional qigong was the final training after the martial arts training because to store up the energy requires creating an emotional and physical space for yourself.

 

Since this training works on complementary opposites that means the more energy you store up then the more others will desire it and try to take it.

 

Also Taoist Yoga emphasizes that it will be more tempting for you to use the energy and give to it others - why? Because the energy comes from the heart. But this is still evil fire energy since it is sent as romantic love yin chi energy.

 

So the "unconditional love" that SFQ teaches is actually the yang qi created after the yin chi is built up.

 

SFQ now makes the difference between the void and the Emptiness with the later achieved only after the yin chi energy is built up. This is not explicitly detailed as a training process by SFQ - except as the gong training, etc. I mean Chunyi was more strict originally but then he became more "Americanized" as he says it - or as the qigong master says just the students didn't have the intention of making such a commitment.

 

As for other people saying what is the true teachings or not - the way I see it is there are true principles that are universal psychophysiological transformations and they are transcultural - it's just that qigong or the traditional Chinese training - developed as a type of science that provides very specific information. Within that arena certainly there will be various sects and schools, etc. and the key I think is to find a teacher who has the abilities and then to figure out what the teacher is actually trying to explain.

 

So all I can say is only the book Taoist Yoga has been able to explain specifically what is going on in the training process. I asked for evidence on the accusation that it is a mistranslation - and the only evidence provided so far is that the term "Microcosmic orbit" is not found in the Chinese. That might sound bad at the face of it - but in actuality that is not considered to be a problem - in fact it is common knowledge that Charles Luk "coined the term" microcosmic orbit for what had previously been called the small heavenly orbit, etc. So maybe I personally don't like the term "microcosmic orbit" but I don't really consider it a mistranslation - others like Mantak Chia picked it up and popularized it. Personally I like the "small universe" term that Chunyi uses. Is that also a "mistranslation?" haha.

 

Is that the best evidence someone can provide for why Taoist Yoga is dangerous to use, etc.? If that is the case - I mean personally if I thought Taoist Yoga was dangerous to use I would be the first to want to tell people the details of why it is dangerous. And yet none are forthcoming. Instead when we ask for evidence we get something that is even considered "bragging rights" by others about the Taoist Yoga book. haha.

 

Oh well - like I said when I first mentioned Taoist Yoga on this forum back in 2005 - or so - people freaked saying the book was too dangerous and so people shouldn't read it. Very strange. I find those kind of intimidating scare tactics to be kind of cultish.

 

And then you tell me that such and such school claims you don't have to store up celibacy energy. haha. Hilarious! That is so typical -

 

I have shared this store before but I think it explains a lot about the energy.

 

I did the intensive training - including the week long fast just taking a half glass of water the whole time. My yang qi energy was activated - and I was 29 years old at the time and had a lot of prenatal energy - and anyway so then I went to the Level 3 retreat for SFQ.

 

So it was a big conference room, I was in the back, but I could barely stand being the room due to one man in the front with this awful death rotting smell. No one else seemed to notice except that Chunyi explained that qigong masters can smell cancer and it smells like rotting flesh. So then that man explained he had traveled from across the u.s. to get special healing - so I knew he had cancer and sure enough as Chunyi healed him then the smell went away.

 

So then we had a break and I went to my room and I was in full lotus and the pain was too strong since I had just been in full lotus for a couple hours - but I just transmitted yang qi out of my hands using sword fingers and the numbness in the feet vanished immediately. But then it was these 1950s cabins and not only could I hear what was going on - but I could smell the same death stench through the wall - it was that man only now his female lover was there - taking the energy that chunyi had sent to heal him - and so the man's death rotting stench came back.

 

Now I'm thinking - how in the world can that lady even be in the same room with the man - not to mention make love to him? But she could not only not smell the cancer but she was fixated on getting his energy which had been sent to him by Chunyi.

 

And so even if a qigong master transmits the spirit-vitality or shen-qi energy - the yuan qi energy from the Emptiness - it can still be easily deconverted back into sex fluid energy by the impurities of people around us.

 

I have personally experienced this on many times when the qigong masters fill me with energy and then people around me go crazy wanting to get it from me, etc.

 

My point is that - the basic formula is that it takes a lot of jing to make qi and a lot of qi to make shen. So if you get shen then it turns into a lot of jing.

 

So yes it is possible to just get lots of shen and so then you have lots of jing - but you can't get that kind of shen on your own unless you do the first approach - building up the foundation. Chunyi has emphasized - you can not just magically fully open the third eye - you have to first build up a strong lower tan tien foundation - and again this energy is easily deconverted by the impurities. So that's why Chunyi says to get to advanced level requires going into retreat or in solitude in Nature, etc.

 

People are always making various claims - I have seen a lot of different qigong claims over the years. Even SFQ has changed their claims as Chunyi has gotten more experience about just what "Americanization" means. haha. We live in a culture that is the opposite of the qigong training.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

So then you ask how do you go into the Emptiness - based on visualization?

 

Actually in the real Emptiness the body is filled with yang qi energy so much that the centers of the hands and feet and the top of the head are pulsating with electromagnetic energy and also physical breathing is next to not necessary - as is food and water and sleep.

 

So then the Emptiness can be thought of as a spacetime vortex - and just as there are different levels of consciousness there are also different levels of Emptiness.

 

So what Taoist Yoga says is that at the end of the book - the spirit-vitality or qi-shen actually spreads across the whole universe and then it can reform whenever it chooses to back into a physical form.

 

So the thing about the Emptiness as the golden aura is that it is a brighter light as yuan qi - a deeper level of spirit-vitality energy on the body-mind level and on the cosmic astral level.

 

So the yang qi is the intention as spirit-vitality while yuan qi is a reversed spacetime level of the same type of energy.

 

Consider that a black hole becomes a white hole when the energy is reversed 180 degrees in spacetime.

 

So physiologically - again the Cavity of prenatal vitality is the yuan qi while the cavity of spirit as the prefrontal cortex intention (along with the spirit light of the heart) then is the yang qi energy.

 

Or as Ramana Maharshi says - the Emptiness is not light - or as he calls it awareness is not light - formless awareness is not light - but at the same time you use light-consciousness to merge into the Emptiness - or as he calls it the sattva mind consciousness is what merges into formless nonduality.

 

And so how I define it is that Emptiness is actually the eternal process of energy creation from precisely this eternal yin-yang dynamic as complementary opposites.

 

You ask about visualization but you can not see the Emptiness - yet you can listen to the Emptiness. The thing about listening - as logical inference - is that no "one" is actually listening. there is no beginning and ending to listening. That's what Ramana Maharshi calls it Mouna Samadhi as the formless awareness - "silence samadhi" - listening is the eternal process of energy creation as complementary opposites with yin as the Perfect 4th and yang as the Perfect 5th music intervals. My blog goes into more details on that.

 

So most of us - we only practice in the void - as for the Emptiness - as Taoist Yoga says if you do actually achieve it - the first time you achieve it there is left a state of confusion. This is exactly what happened to me - I had the Emptiness experience and I came out of it confused. But I didn't realize that Taoist Yoga actually explained that was normal!

 

The qigong master says - in the Emptiness you can't feel your body at all and you can't see anything. Think of it like deep dreamless sleep but you remain in awareness.

 

Or as a Near Death Experiencer described - or was told - the light of the universe is not God - but rather the light of the universe is what God is breathing - and you can't actually ever see God.

[opendao]

*the comment about the energy building faster than it depletes was opendao's, on some other discussion, I don't remember where but could find it if you want. but it's not a text refernce or anything.

 

I can only confirm that and add that the important thing to think about is so called "leakage stop" state.

Celibacy is practised in some schools for a short period of time to intensify the training.

Celibacy in general is not recommended, it harms.

 

Opendao, what does your school think of this? Focus, or non-focus, on the emptiness?

 

As many other Neidan school, we teach how the spirit-shen can enter the "emptiness that is not empty", but it has no relation to focus or non-focus, as well as to the idea of emptiness in qigong, when people feel nothing ("no body"), see nothing except white light or focus on something that produces no signals.

[Yae]

Phew ok I'm still reading your second post Innersound, but I want to restate this query to you:

 

How can you add to the pre-heaven energy through celibacy if we're born with a set amount? It seems like it would only be possible to lose it more slowly through celibacy, so at say, age 30 after "spreading one's wild oats" (to borrow a term of yours) the whole time, celibacy would be useless because one has already spent too much pre-heaven. That was clear right?

[Yae]

I do feel like lust is a factory for lower body energy blockages (personal experience but is a topic discussed and apparently researched by Innersound). Opendao has mentioned that good post-heaven energy flow is necessary for successful cultivation of pre-heaven (I think? but doesn't pre-heaven practice also balance post-heaven?) so it seems like lust would get in the way of that.

 

Regarding sex, Master Lin said in his TaoBums interview:

 

"Yes, sexual relations and orgasm can deplete your energy. And, sexual relations and orgasm can enhance your energy flow and development.

This depends on many things, The level of love, commitment and connection you have with your partner are very important. At the right level you can utilize the moment of orgasm to take that sexual energy and move it up through your heart and to your mind to develop "wisdom energy" which is very beneficial. For some people celibacy may help them focus and enhance their energy development."

 

So... seems it's not all bad.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Bluemind

[opendao]

I do feel like lust is a factory for lower body energy blockages (personal experience but is a topic discussed and apparently researched by Innersound). Opendao has mentioned that good post-heaven energy flow is necessary for successful cultivation of pre-heaven (I think? but doesn't pre-heaven practice also balance post-heaven?) so it seems like lust would get in the way of that.

 

I doubt I've ever mentioned anything about flow of energy... The idea is that postheaven has to work properly. It's more about life style. If it is not set properly then the results of neidan preheaven practices will be hard to keep and accumulate.

 

Lust is a part of love, it has its place and meaning, and even value for the practice. It's transformed with the practice, but if somebody tries to stop it using force, it creates energy blockages and harms the spirit.

 

And you're right, celibacy cannot restore yuan jing, can only slow down the depletion.

 

Regarding sex, Master Lin said in his TaoBums interview:

 

"Yes, sexual relations and orgasm can deplete your energy. And, sexual relations and orgasm can enhance your energy flow and development.

 

This depends on many things, The level of love, commitment and connection you have with your partner are very important. At the right level you can utilize the moment of orgasm to take that sexual energy and move it up through your heart and to your mind to develop "wisdom energy" which is very beneficial. For some people celibacy may help them focus and enhance their energy development."

 

So... seems it's not all bad.

 

What you quote sounds very bad such practices burn the brain, destroy it... it's like to plug a calculator into 220 volts socket

[SecretGrotto]

How can you add to the pre-heaven energy through celibacy if we're born with a set amount? It seems like it would only be possible to lose it more slowly through celibacy, so at say, age 30 after "spreading one's wild oats" (to borrow a term of yours) the whole time, celibacy would be useless because one has already spent too much pre-heaven. That was clear right?

 

So how would one then replenish Pre-Heaven Essence (Yuan Jing)?

 

At quick glance Yuxian Pai uses Shen Gong standing active exercise to replenish Yuan Jing as the first Neidan step, as from http://www.northerndao.org/events : "To introduce a first step of Yuxian Pai Internal Alchemy method: empower and clean the kidneys using a set of movements called Shengong."

 

Could this Shengong be Nine Yang Magic Power or Jiu Yang Shen Gong, which is the secret first step of WLP and Yuxian Pai, which would look just like simple Qigong to an outsider?

 

Since sitting exercises for the beginning stages of Neidan would be explicitly criticised by WLP followers, they opt for something that does not violate the long list of "fake" Neidan practices, and the result probably looks like Qigong. Which is very ironic, since WLP followers would claim that masters like Wang Liping and Yan Xin are really doing Qigong and not Neidan.

 

 

"Simply repair by yourself this Essence with your Essence, and this Breath with your Breath. You do not need to perform any odd practice, or how could self-cultivation be easy?"

 

"Just settle the breathing of the Spirit and rely on the celestial spontaneity."

 

I have read Foundations of Internal Alchemy translated by Pregadio, a text effectively recommended to me by a Yuxian Pai follower. And it clearly states on multiple occasions that Sitting in Quiescence and controlling breathing does the bulk of the work in real Neidan.

 

"Therefore the initial stage involves collecting the mind, guarding Unity, ceasing thoughts, and entering the state of quiescence. These four expressions show that, at this stage, one should perform practices to eliminate the impure thoughts." "Therefore when you are sitting in quiescence, you should first of all practice the method of stopping breathing."

If you understand the expressions, you will see that this the most widely preached practice, i.e. sitting meditation, focus on LDT, and stilling the heart/5 thieves/desires.

 

"Therefore when the alchemical masters sit to practice, they coagulate Spirit and stabilize breathing, press the tongue lightly against the upper palate, concentrate the Heart and eyes inwardly, look down at their Cinnabar Field, and can rapidly enter the state of Quiescence."

 

"Therefore Laozi said: "I always contemplate the Heart, and attain the Dao in the blink of an eye."

 

"During the refining on should apply flexibility, and should not adhere too rigidly to the literal meaning of words."

 

 

However, it would seem that WLP and Yuxian Pai do not agree, and instead chooses to interpret ancient texts out of context with lack of logic and failing to see the bigger picture as long as they can gather evidence of superiority. They take as evidence the documented lifespan of "fake" Neidan teachers to show that those teachers could not have know the right teachings.

 

Yet they forget to factor in that when a Yang Shen body is created, it is a double and the old body has to die. Yogic literature is replete with writings of masters like Babaji, Lahiri Mahasaya, Pranabananda, and Sri Yukteshwar who have thrown off their old bodies so that they could operate in their Yang Shen body. Some of them even worked out the karmic load of their disciples as cancers on their own body, yet they healed countless of people, how does the math work out here? The old body is just a tattered old jacket, not needed anymore when they have a Yang Shen body.

 

The message of WLP recommended texts are clearly this, harness the mechanisms of the three dantians for refining the various forms of life energy, let the process unfold naturally and allow yourself to be divinely guided by relying on Celestial spontaneity. In this way prolonged meditation, with the observance of certain key principles openly available, will result in the highest achievement.

[joeblast]

So how would one then replenish Pre-Heaven Essence (Yuan Jing)?

I think the emptiness has been stressed enough, yes? Why? Because after turning down all of those volume knobs, its not only quieter, but that noise was also consuming energy.

 

 

In the state of quiescence after all those volume knobs have been turned down, where does all that extra energy go? Think JQS and firstly that additional energy goes towards core processes. It is of course not entirely 1 or 2 of the 3 at any given point. But a preponderance thereof will go to core processes and repair and such. In fact you dont get superlative stillness until that process completes to a significant extent and enough processes are net energy positive.

 

 

 

I have to chuckle at dismissals of thoroughly analyzed physical technique, because it forms the physiological basis for quiescence in the first place.

 

And how's it (these practices) dangerous? Dont follow the rules set forth and it becomes dangerous! Ignore prescient words from those before us, it becomes dangerous. WLP likened it to burning an empty vessel, dammit it stunk the last time I accidentally left a pot on the stove. Why, because I was careless and doing other things. I'm not on this path of doing things because I cant make this the most important thing in my life right now, simple. No attempt at climbing a rock face is better than a halfass unprepared attempt.

Edited January 14, 2015 by joeblast

[Taoist Texts]

. WLP likened it to burning an empty vessel, dammit it stunk the last time I accidentally left a pot on the stove. Why, because I was careless and doing other things.

 

actually its doubtful that the original chinese quote meant 'if you heat an empty pot - it will burn out and crack', it was more to the tune that 'if you heat a pot with no rice in it - there will be no cooked rice'.

[joeblast]

the verbiage I'm referring to was not so ambiguous - and basically said "if you do burn and crack the pot, you will not be able to cook rice"

[voidisyinyang]

Phew ok I'm still reading your second post Innersound, but I want to restate this query to you:

 

How can you add to the pre-heaven energy through celibacy if we're born with a set amount? It seems like it would only be possible to lose it more slowly through celibacy, so at say, age 30 after "spreading one's wild oats" (to borrow a term of yours) the whole time, celibacy would be useless because one has already spent too much pre-heaven. That was clear right?

 

If you burn up your prenatal jing then you die but through Emptiness meditation as Cavity of Prenatal Vitality purification you can rebuild prenatal jing. We are all connected to the Emptiness and a part of the Emptiness but we need to harmonize or resonate with the Emptiness to rebuild the energy.

 

Celibacy is never useless - and celibacy is required. In 2000 at the guild meeting Chunyi stated emphatically that there can be no thoughts about sex if you want to have advanced level of training. Of course I never heard him say that again since it's obviously too strict - as he said - he got more "Americanized." So as for what he said in his interview - he's taking about basically what Mantak Chia teaches - which is again the yin chi energy. Actually what is taken in from the female is yin jing energy and then you have to meditate more to purify it into yin chi energy. But in a later Guild talk Chunyi said he himself never practices tantra because the energy taken in from the female is too impure. I, myself, got healed by the qigong master because for years I had taken in a lot of bad energy from my tantra practice. In other words the bad energy is more "evil fire" jing energy - since you are taking it in - it is a type of alchemical agent, a mix of jing, qi, and shen together - so like a holographic imprint on the soul - as Taoist Yoga says at first the energy is just a twinkle - a subconscious light qi or spirit-vitality signal - but then it builds into thoughts and then becomes like an addiction. So then as you send out yin chi energy it is a mixture of prenatal and postnatal depending on how much food you have ionized - and so you can burn off more prenatal qi energy as you go along. Taoist Yoga says it's like kicking a football - it is exciting as you do it but you don't realize you are depleting the air in the ball.

 

So the only way to rebuild prenatal jing is only through celibacy Emptiness practice - the Taoist Yoga book is very clear about this. But again it is difficult to really build up the energy since just talking about the subject is itself an impurity - but also - just reread my Cavity of Prenatal Vitality post - on my blog - the Emptiness is required to properly build up the energy.

 

So basically with language we are in a much slower realm of consciousness while reality is based on spirit communication and then is stored in us subconsciously - as "evil fire" energy - and so then the standing active exercises purify that evil fire energy. Taoist Yoga says - o.k. so if you have had evil fire thoughts during the day - or not even thoughts - just the evil fire spirit communication - then you gotta do the active exercises as quick fire practice. Taoist Yoga says - "sublimate" in the morning and purify in the evening - and then do the Emptiness meditation at midnight.

 

So then as you build up more yin chi energy then the evil fire attacks will get more pronounced since basically we are dealing with sublimated reproductive energy - and most people are fixated on reproductive level of reality. But the practice is focused on the truth of reality as an eternal energy process - aka immortality. Yes tantra is good for health as Taoist Yoga says but it is limited and absolutely useless when death does occur. But as I said - Chunyi doesn't practice tantra since it is too dirty. Chunyi says what happens is people open the third eye a bit for the yin chi or psychic abilities and then overuse the third eye and then people get fat since they have to rely on food to rebuild their jing energy. So also tantra is very dirty - since as a yin chi energy it is actually reversing the small universe, bringing the yin chi up the front, via the vagus nerve, which also brings up and leaches out all the lower body anaerobic bacteria impurities. So for me because of my years of wrong psychic tantra practice I have to use essential oils all the time as antiseptics. For serious qigong - Chunyi says to only eat to 70% full because he says for "qigong people" the food goes to the head. So basically with third eye opening you are in a permanent altered state of reality where your energy is constantly interacting with people around you and food is getting ionized by the pineal gland into chi energy, etc.

 

So as for Taoist Yoga being dangerous from not following the directions properly - well that is tautological - but people screaming "don't read the book" is oxymoronic - because if a person starts reading it then they should read it all and study it very closely. As for what is "authentic" or not - again there are going to be obviously infinite nuances - but for me by far the most dangerous impact is having people trying to force me to be ignorant. haha. I personally find that very suspicious when people threateningly want to keep you away from information.

 

Taoist Yoga repeatedly calls building up the yin chi energy "nourishing the brain" and that also how Chunyi is describing it. Taoist Yoga says gluttonous people and lustful people can achieve the Tao as Tai Chi but only if they are able to conquer their sleep - because what happens is that even if you have no bad thoughts - if you have that subconscious evil fire spirit exchange with people then the heart energy is too impure and in deep dreamless sleep the heart fire energy descends to the lower tan tien and deconverts the qi back into fluid and the alchemical agent gets lost.

[Yae]

What you quote sounds very bad such practices burn the brain, destroy it... it's like to plug a calculator into 220 volts socket

 

That part of the text was ok for me because I read in Drunvalo Melchezidek's The Secret of the Flower of Life (popular New Age book) that the ankh in Egypt was used to do exactly what Chunyi Lin said,

 

The energy from the orgasm passes through the center, but instead of leaving the body and being lost/depleted it is channeled back down and returns to... someplace in the body.

 

So you think the energy is too much for the brain? I was just thinking of it like, using heart-centered and mind-centered thoughts to conduct the use of the sex energy in a loving way or something, which makes sense only in the realm of visualization, intention, etc.

[Yae]

Man Innersound I got a little lost there. I don't know enough to respond to or even absorb some of that.

 

These Neidan people are only "forcing ignorance"" in the sense that you're not allowed to learn the pre-heaven practices unless you're at one of the schools practicing for from about one month for WuLiuPai to 2 or 3? years for YuXianPai.

 

I would think that a person's environment has to be conducive to the requirements for mental and physical celibacy, or else it would be a constant battle with the sexual desires that rise each day. But cultivating out alone somewhere, with no females, it seems like it might not be so stressful. Or maybe it's just a matter of discipline.

 

Yes I was thinking earlier that Chunyi's quote may have been a bit of American diplomacy.

 

"As many other Neidan school, we teach how the spirit-shen can enter the "emptiness that is not empty", but it has no relation to focus or non-focus, as well as to the idea of emptiness in qigong, when people feel nothing ("no body"), see nothing except white light or focus on something that produces no signals." - opendao

 

Innersound, some have said that TY is meant to be used as a companion while having a Neidan teacher, teaching the aforementioned in-person-only/heart-to-heart-only methods. I (intuitively but may be wrong) don't think TY specifically defines emptiness as the "no body" state, or even the gradual extension of the gaps between thoughts until no-mind is achieved. I think that still sounds like clearing of the heart(-mind) practice that is the beginning practice in these Neidan schools.

 

I have no clue what the emptiness experience opendao is describing would be like, but it seems possible that IT is the actual emptiness practice mentioned in TY. That is unless the practice is mentioned in the first section about quieting the heart.

[Taoist Texts]

the verbiage I'm referring to was not so ambiguous - and basically said "if you do burn and crack the pot, you will not be able to cook rice"

 

I know;) that verbiage is a classic example as how they twist the original words.

 

The original saying is explained here

 

Cultivating the Tao: Taoism and Internal Alchemy

 

what is the purpose of using water and fire to boil an empty pot? .

and comes originally from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuzhen_pian

occuring just once in the text. At no point the text suggests that the pot will be damaged in the process.

鼎内若无真种子，犹将水火煮空铛。

if in the tripod there is no true seed, its like trying to cook heating an empty pot.

thats all it says.

[opendao]

So how would one then replenish Pre-Heaven Essence (Yuan Jing)?

 

At quick glance Yuxian Pai uses Shen Gong standing active exercise to replenish Yuan Jing as the first Neidan step, as from http://www.northerndao.org/events : "To introduce a first step of Yuxian Pai Internal Alchemy method: empower and clean the kidneys using a set of movements called Shengong."

 

Could this Shengong be Nine Yang Magic Power or Jiu Yang Shen Gong, which is the secret first step of WLP and Yuxian Pai, which would look just like simple Qigong to an outsider?

 

You're thinking loud about something you don't know. But it doesn't look as a question. It looks you're already know for sure... Bad sign.

 

Jiu Yang Shen Gong cannot look as a simple qigong. You've never seen it obviously.

Both Shengong and Jiu Yang Shen Gong are not exercises to _replenish_ yuan jing.

They are part of the preparatory process.

 

Btw, Jiu Yang Shen Gong is not a secret at all and anybody can come and learn it. Shengong and other preparatory exercises are also available freaking easy...

 

I advise you to get more facts first, then make some big conclusions. Or it looks kinda lame, same as Taoist Texts & Co stupid "comments" based on the lack of any neidan knowledge at all, except some books they've read in a very strange way.

 

Since sitting exercises for the beginning stages of Neidan would be explicitly criticised by WLP followers, they opt for something that does not violate the long list of "fake" Neidan practices, and the result probably looks like Qigong.

 

If you don't know qigong, then some preparatory exercises in Neidan will look as qigong (and it has sense if you know the history, of qigong). But it won't give you anything to understand what the actual replenishing is all about.

 

Yet they forget to factor in that when a Yang Shen body is created, it is a double and the old body has to die.

 

They don't forget (lol). Old body has to be transformed in a special way. But you simply don't know.

 

The message of WLP recommended texts are clearly this, harness the mechanisms of the three dantians for refining the various forms of life energy, let the process unfold naturally and allow yourself to be divinely guided by relying on Celestial spontaneity. In this way prolonged meditation, with the observance of certain key principles openly available, will result in the highest achievement.

 

Please come back when you get to that point. I can wait. So far I prefer to rely on words of those who have such results, and not just lame chatting about them.

 

About books I will reply later, but again you missed the point of what was wrote before...

[SecretGrotto]

Jiu Yang Shen Gong cannot look as a simple qigong. You've never seen it obviously.

Both Shengong and Jiu Yang Shen Gong are not exercises to _replenish_ yuan jing.

They are part of the preparatory process.

 

Btw, Jiu Yang Shen Gong is not a secret at all and anybody can come and learn it. Shengong and other preparatory exercises are also available freaking easy...

 

I'm just trying to get more facts, and I appreciate you sharing.

 

At quick glance Yuxian Pai uses Shen Gong standing active exercise to replenish Yuan Jing as the first Neidan step, as from http://www.northerndao.org/events : "To introduce a first step of Yuxian Pai Internal Alchemy method: empower and clean the kidneys using a set of movements called Shengong."

 

So the first step of your Neidan method is not a secret at all. Thanks for the clarification. I thought the first step of Neidan was never written down, but if it is so easily available I won't be surprised if somebody documented it somehow.

 

So the first step is really a preparatory exercise, even though it does not work with Yuan Jing. So it almost seems to just be Qigong conditioning, and it is not really Neidan, since the real first step of Neidan is to replenish Yuan Jing in order to move on to its refining.

 

The thing is all-dao.com makes it seem like their Shengong is the secret first step, but like all false advertising the poor student only finds out afterward that the real first step can only be learned after spending a lot more time and money.

 

It's only after provocatively garnering information that one finds the truth, and then it is made out to be this obvious thing. Why can't people just be honest instead of trying to trick and mislead?