Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[opendao]

I'm just trying to get more facts, and I appreciate you sharing.

 

At quick glance Yuxian Pai uses Shen Gong standing active exercise to replenish Yuan Jing as the first Neidan step

 

"quick glance" doesn't work if you want to learn Neidan

 

, as from http://www.northerndao.org/events : "To introduce a first step of Yuxian Pai Internal Alchemy method: empower and clean the kidneys using a set of movements called Shengong."

 

So the first step of your Neidan method is not a secret at all. Thanks for the clarification. I thought the first step of Neidan was never written down, but if it is so easily available I won't be surprised if somebody documented it somehow.

 

you mix different things.

 

1) If you can come and learn it doesn't mean it's documented or it will be possible to practice it by books. Do you get the difference?

 

2) yes, it's a first _step_, but not the entire first _stage_, which has many steps inside

 

See Wang Mu's book for clarifications if it is the book you're using now.

 

And the methods to replenish Jing was never disclosed the way it's possible to practice. But you'll continue to believe in sitting meditation, "spiritual mobility" and "safety rules", so it has no too much sense to discuss.

 

So the first step is really a preparatory exercise, even though it does not work with Yuan Jing.

 

there is a difference between "work with" and "replenish", but in general you're right

 

So it almost seems to just be Qigong conditioning, and it is not really Neidan, since the real first step of Neidan is to replenish Yuan Jing in order to move on to its refining.

 

again, steps vs stages and read Wang Mu's "Laying the foundations" chapter.

 

"qigong conditioning" is not Neidan, but in our system we teach traditional "qigong" sets in the beginning, and even on the site it's clearly distinguished that it's not neidan. I've also explained yesterday in this thread why it's needed (postheaven).

 

The thing is all-dao.com makes it seem like their Shengong is the secret first step, but like all false advertising the poor student only finds out afterward that the real first step can only be learned after spending a lot more time and money.

 

all-dao.com is about WLP, so I doubt there is a word about shengong, which is from YXP. Huge mess in your head?

 

It's only after provocatively garnering information that one finds the truth, and then it is made out to be this obvious thing. Why can't people just be honest instead of trying to trick and mislead?

 

why intelligent people can't just simply ask questions if they are confused?

 

Continue your "provocatively garnering information" (sic) , but it's not something good people do, in my honest opinion. Chao.

[opendao]

So you think the energy is too much for the brain? I was just thinking of it like, using heart-centered and mind-centered thoughts to conduct the use of the sex energy in a loving way or something, which makes sense only in the realm of visualization, intention, etc.

 

sexual jing (postheaven jing) is too much for the brain. Love thoughts and open heart are beneficial for the practice. But it's not a result of moving the energy up to the brain, that's the important practical difference.

[opendao]

Man Innersound I got a little lost there. I don't know enough to respond to or even absorb some of that.

 

These Neidan people are only "forcing ignorance"" in the sense that you're not allowed to learn the pre-heaven practices unless you're at one of the schools practicing for from about one month for WuLiuPai to 2 or 3? years for YuXianPai.

 

I don't see any confusion or ignorance in what you're writing. Just don't try to mix everything together. Isolate different systems. Throw out the garbage :-) I think you are on a right way.

 

It's hard to understand Neidan as a whole thing by mapping different qigong experience to neidan terminology. Even different neidan schools have a lot of things that are not the same.

 

I think in the beginning it's more important to understand yourself, and how your real internal goals correspond, resonate with what you're reading about different systems in general. Don't think about methods and exact details - you cannot get them at the moment. Read more about neidan history, biographies of masters, read classic books to get some feeling about the process in general, try to understand the Daoist world-view without getting into much details.

 

I think it's more beneficial then trying to create your own system of knowledge based on the limited information you have. Even for qigong it doesn't work. All these modern uproots (sfq, kunlun, zyq etc), and even for postheaven methods there are a lot of mistakes, practical mistakes. So for qigong it's hard to find a good teacher nowadays as well. For Neidan it has been always a main problem.

 

Btw, when you receive the preheaven practices, it doesn't mean you'll instantly understand their celestial mechanism. You will experience that they work differently then qigong, but that's it. It's a very complex system with a lot of details hard to get. Think about Yijing: who really understands it?

 

So yeah, sorry, there is no short-cut way to Heaven. A lot of time, a lot of efforts. That's a reality.

[damdao]

I think that one of the main reasons why these days it is so difficult to understand the difficulties of alchemy, is because we haven't the original tools. I realised that with the fire schedule (huohou), today you turn on the oven and thats all. In old days you had to be by the side of the fire many ours with a fan, caring about the intensity of the fire, sometimes fanning and sometimes waiting. So, you can stablish a fire schedule as part of the recipe in order to prepare an herbal medicine, without this fire schedule even if you had the correct ingredients you cannot get results.
The same goes with the pot. Most assuredly if you cook an empty pot it will eventually crack. Even these days, you cannot cook in an empty pot or a saucepan long enough because you will broke it. So, even if Wuzhenpian does says that, it can be implied, provided you have this experience in your kitchen.
Wang Li Ping says the same: “But if someone without enough Qi and Jing of substance to speed up the Yang fire will burn out the inner pot.” Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng etc., p. 81, I have supressed some words that sound like a weird wording in English.

 

Secretgrotto said:
Maybe I'll rather stick with those masters who have actually showed their power, undeniably, and have given free, effective teachings. Masters like Yan Xin who openly healed thousands upon thousands of people publicly, and Wang Liping who has tremendous success leading his students into advanced neidan states.

 

No master have actually showed his power undeniably, perhaps the only one was John Chang, but his way is not neidan and maybe even is harmful for health.
I don't understand how it is possible to put the phrase “give free teachings” and Wang Liping in the very near environment, lol.
Speaking of what, I don't understand the mantra: “...only be learned after spending a lot more time and money.” I have read it in many posts now. When was different way? We always has to spend time and money and sometimes we waste time and money and feel pride of it, I fail seeing why is so bad to spend time and money in learning neidan (or researching it, if you are not sure about a school). You cannot go always in a sure and comfortable path.

Edited January 14, 2015 by damdao

[Taoist Texts]

why is so bad to spend time and money in learning neidan

 

 

This is interesting. So those immortal true neidan masters need money? How much in total? What an immortal would spend this money on?

[opendao]

Wang Li Ping says the same: “But if someone without enough Qi and Jing of substance to speed up the Yang fire will burn out the inner pot.” Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng etc., p. 81, I have supressed some words that sound like a weird wording in English.

 

I can add that the meaning of such metaphor is not just about "cracking pot" (lol, in Canada it sounds funny), but also that it HAS NO SENSE to do such things.

 

No "true seed", no sense to do Small Heavenly Circle.

 

I don't understand how it is possible to put the phrase “give free teachings” and Wang Liping in the very near environment, lol.

 

so true

 

 

Speaking of what, I don't understand the mantra: “...only be learned after spending a lot more time and money.” I have read it in many posts now. When was different way? We always has to spend time and money and sometimes we waste time and money and feel pride of it, I fail seeing why is so bad to spend time and money in learning neidan (or researching it, if you are not sure about a school). You cannot go always in a sure and comfortable path.

 

I also don't understand all that. In the modern western civilization it's a rule to pay for the knowledge. Even for books you have to pay. Comparing to the universities the amount you can spend for neidan is very low. I think people just don't understand or don't believe that neidan really can change their live much more then a university degree... Maybe it's because they are tired of conmen who give them nothing... I don't want to specify the big names, but I really think it's one of the reasons of such situation.

[opendao]

about free teaching or "why immortals need money".

 

I've already covered it here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35945-why-do-buddhists-seem-to-charge-110th-as-much-as-daoists-for-teachings/?p=572863

 

Some additions:

 

1) Some people here don't know the tradition and don't understand how the teaching has been done in China. Any teaching, not only Dao.

 

If they do some research, they can possibly understand that the master doesn't need money. It's a student has a true sincere wish to give money to master. And in such case it's a big relief for the student that it so EASY.

 

2) We live in the society where money is a tool of the energy exchange. There are other aspects, but it's important to understand that money is just a tool on the way.

 

It's hard to imagine, how much we need to change in ourselves to "attain Dao". Think about money from this point of view, as a tool to overcome difficulties. Alas, not all difficulties on the way can we overcome using money. Any big amounts have their limitations. A lot of things in neidan world cannot be sold for all treasures of the world. Masters don't need them :-( But it's stupid to disregard the role of money and the help student can get by using them in a proper way.

 

3) there are some variants to learn neidan without money involved, but it works good only in very rare cases. In the society it's very difficult. We've tried, so I know.

 

[voidisyinyang]

First we get the "only our school is right" line and then we get the - now you need to pay money line.

 

Hilarious.

 

But anyway - there seems to be hang ups on the "authentic" teachings regarding terminology like "neidan" or neigong versus "qigong"

 

Qigong was coined by the Communists - it's a catch-all term. So for people to dismiss SFQ without really knowing about the teacher of it - again that's hilarious!

 

I'm sure the "authentic" teachings are very much worth pursuing but at the same time it is very rare to find real spiritual masters.

 

Also the comment was made that maybe only John Chang has consistently demonstrated these special abilities.

 

Oops - I guess people really are not that aware of Chunyi. haha. Chunyi Lin.

 

Of course I realize some people are newer to this forum - and I haven't gotten brow-beaten for "promoting" SFQ in a while.

 

So here goes:

 

The Mayo Clinic randomized controlled studies - "gold standard science" proving external qi healing by Chunyi Lin and Jim Nance - http://www.springforestqigong.com/index.php/sfq-for-health-professionals/medical-studies

 

Obviously western skeptics will make up excuses about these studies - which is again hilarious.

 

There are and have been dozens of amazing healing testimonials regarding SFQ - some still online - if people want to search them out.

 

I mean - of course some choose the path of willful ignorance and that's fine too! haha.

 

I did just find more details about an exercise that Charles Luk left out of the original Chinese text when he did his translation - an exercise part of chapter 3 for opening up the 8 main channels of the body.

 

I don't know what the exercise is - and anyway to me it's not that big of a deal - that is still part of building up the yin chi energy and can be done by the standing active exercises also.

 

My point again is that the basic principles are transcultural and there are infinite nuances.

 

For example I've been reading through this "neidan" blog http://tao-meditation.blogspot.com/2012/02/how-to-read-taoist-classic-can-tong-qi.html of a Hong Kong translator of Chinese alchemy texts into English. It's a fascinating blog and I did discover a few new secrets but overall his experience level doesn't seem to be that deep.

 

My experience is that people more adept at translating and the more cerebral conceptual debates tend to be less experienced in that actual practice.

 

In fact I was just listening to the qigong master saying how his focus is on helping people feel better and his focus is not on spreading information. So when he teaches he actually uses very little information. haha.

 

And then we find people basically admitting that despite posting regularly on this forum they don't really do the real practices since they don't want to injure themselves - in other words they are basically lurking yet at the same time trying to tell people what to do. Hilarious! It's very easy to be a critic.

 

For me the training is not about success as much as the training is the truth of reality! As Chunyi says there is "good, better and best." Or you can say everything is a learning process and some people die as heroes or even maybe divine fools.

 

O.K. I finally found specific evidence of mistranslation by Charles Luk:

 

 

It is therefore unfortunate that translator of Taoist Yoga Charles Luk (he himself a Zen master rather than a Taoist master) either had a misunderstanding or did a wrong translation. In Zhao's book, it was mentioned that even very old people could have their latent energy stirred up. It is through stirring up their sexual impulse - BUT up to the point of having erotic thought. The difference is like a "hot lady" versus a "hooker". The former belongs to cultured entertainment (like present day fashion catwalk and sports cheering team performance) while the later belongs to pornography. Different period/culture will have different definition of pornography; stirring up of one's erotic thought will be a good definition of pornography. And classic Taoist master knew the difference, hence their stand against the arousal of erotic thought during meditation was adamant.

Anyway Charles Luk mistranslated the text into: old people "may use artificial means (e.g. masturbation) to arouse the genital organ" (page 14), and it made all the difference and misunderstanding.

 

http://tao-meditation.blogspot.com/2011/12/masturbation-and-meditation.html

 

I think it is arguable - the blog writer seems to be assuming the word masturbation relies on a pornographic visualization. I think while that is the cause in modern times I'm not sure that is how Charles Luk meant the word to be used - more like "manual stimulation." But oh well - the point is made because obviously the typical modern person is going to read masturbation in the wrong way - and that is a good point to make. I personally had a coworker not get past that point in the book - in their early 20s - they were enslaved to their pornographic mindset.

 

 

Nurturing the Holy Embryo, Birthing the Yang Spirit:
The Male Pregnancy Motif in Daoist Meditation and Inner Alchemy

 

So then I just discovered this M.A. thesis pdf link http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.charleschace.com%2Fpdfs%2FXing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf&ei=aGe3VMCFJsnyggShx4HQCg&usg=AFQjCNH58EqXSqhfVictBGJ87du8XMFczg&sig2=O9MuPl3l1sc-klkLM-QMfg&bvm=bv.83829542,d.eXY

 

That quote is chapter three title.

 

He quotes Pregadio.

 

Then he does a lot of translations and commentary on neidan texts.

[opendao]

http://tao-meditation.blogspot.com/2011/12/masturbation-and-meditation.html

 

I think it is arguable - the blog writer seems to be assuming the word masturbation relies on a pornographic visualization. I think while that is the cause in modern times I'm not sure that is how Charles Luk meant the word to be used - more like "manual stimulation." But oh well - the point is made because obviously the typical modern person is going to read masturbation in the wrong way - and that is a good point to make. I personally had a coworker not get past that point in the book - in their early 20s - they were enslaved to their pornographic mindset.

 

that's interesting to see how different harmful practices and stupid theories affect the mindset and twist the brain of some exalted adepts... Priceless material for those who need such medical stories. I don't know who to ask, but maybe it's a result of SFQ practice? TY can also produce such results though...

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Taoist Texts]

First we get the "only our school is right" line and then we get the - now you need to pay money line.

 

Hilarious.

 

"you need to pay the money"....."that we dont need"...."but we will take it anyway" line

 

 

these guys should be in stand up.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

You forget the "the words of every guru are 100% the absolute truth (and every included alleged contradiction and BS only seem so to us due to our unenlightened mind)"-line of the mindless guru-boys.

 

It's alright, just ask yourself if it sounds like a reliable and honest approach to you. If not, forget about it. Don't let us stop you.

 

I think it's worth going for.

[Yae]

*Unlesss Chunyi Lin finally responds to my inquiry about preheaven energy cultivation at the later level of his teaching and sounds like he really knows about it. I know Neidan people would doubt that a practice like SFQ would know about that, but I think Master Lin is really good.

 

Innersound mentioned that people have seen CL's yang body, but he also said that CL was experiencing a precursor to the creation of another one but didn't do what he had to so it didn't happen. If that's true it seems like he either didn't know how to do it, or it wasn't his priority because he just wants to heal people here and now.

 

I'm wondering about Jim Nance. It sounds like he's had a lot of experiences with a yin body at least, and has of course had many supernormal experiences. He sits in lotus for many hours a day and doesn't seem to be dwindling from yin overload in my simple opinion. Innersound, any word on his yang body? CL does say there are teachings he received that he's not allowed to share.

[Yae]

Wait... But what about the stories of Catholic holy people like Mother Teresa doing bilocation? That would require a yang spirit wouldn't it?

[opendao]

Wait... But what about the stories of Catholic holy people like Mother Teresa doing bilocation? That would require a yang spirit wouldn't it?

 

no

[Yae]

Oh. Then I guess Chunyi's bilocation wouldn't necessarily require that either. -10 points to Innersound if this is true. Why is that?

[opendao]

Oh. Then I guess Chunyi's bilocation wouldn't necessarily require that either. -10 points to Innersound if this is true. Why is that?

 

their lack of knowledge leads to wrong conclusions.

Such things as biolocation can be achieved solely by Xing practices and yinshen.

[Yae]

their lack of knowledge leads to wrong conclusions.

Such things as biolocation can be achieved solely by Xing practices and yinshen.

 

But I just read in The Way of Complete Perfection - A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology that the yin body (what I'm thinking of as yinshen) can't interact with the physical environment and can't be seen, but the yang body can. I'm confused.

[allinone]

you can cultivate generosity, money making, any skill you want. What doesn't cut my nut is what exactly you are cultivating to have yang shen?

 

isn't yang shen just an extracted wisdom from whatever you cultivate? When you seeking yang shen then you may actually cultivate yearning, various other desires, greed etc?

 

edit :or yuanjingqi to reamin on topic..

Edited January 16, 2015 by allinone

[opendao]

But I just read in The Way of Complete Perfection - A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology that the yin body (what I'm thinking of as yinshen) can't interact with the physical environment and can't be seen, but the yang body can. I'm confused.

 

can you quote from the book? about physical it's true, about "can't be seen": some people can see or feel yinshen and ghosts (not as physical bodies, but as some "bodies of light" or shadows). It depends again on their sensitivity, which is a result of xing training (or innate talents). Also don't forget about illusions: people see absolutely imaginary things, but believe they are true. That's why Neidan doesn't develop such sensitivity in the beginning of the practice.

[opendao]

you can cultivate generosity, money making, any skill you want. What doesn't cut my nut is what exactly you are cultivating to have yang shen?

 

daode

 

isn't yang shen just an extracted wisdom from whatever you cultivate?

 

no

 

When you seeking yang shen then you may actually cultivate yearning, various other desires, greed etc?

 

no, it's impossible. With an evil dark heart, the desires won't allow you to master Ming and Xing, as well as to join them together to get Daotai.

[allinone]

de- "virtue"

What i meant was you can't cultivate yang shen because its a concept. Its made up theory.

If finally you will reach yang shen then will know what it is, but if you haven't, then you can't know if it is even achieved the way you think it is or what it looks like or what are its qualities.

 

How will you cultivate boredome? you need to become bored first.

Edited January 16, 2015 by allinone

[Yae]

can you quote from the book? about physical it's true, about "can't be seen": some people can see or feel yinshen and ghosts (not as physical bodies, but as some "bodies of light" or shadows). It depends again on their sensitivity, which is a result of xing training (or innate talents). Also don't forget about illusions: people see absolutely imaginary things, but believe they are true. That's why Neidan doesn't develop such sensitivity in the beginning of the practice.

 

I actually can't find it now, I'm sorry. It was a story of a man going to dinner and bringing his friend who was in yin body form. The man could see his friend but others couldn't, so he had to ask them to serve what looked like an empty spot. The man had to eat both portions because his friend couldn't eat, he could only 'suck at the air' or something.

 

But yes more specifically it said that only people with special faculties would be able to see it.

[opendao]

de- "virtue"

What i meant was you can't cultivate yang shen because its a concept. Its made up theory.

 

In Neidan "cultivate" doesn't mean that you _know_ some qualities by your mind and you're trying to _mimic_ them all the time. It's fake. It works on a very simple psychological level only: if you remember how you have been being bored, next time you can easily mimic the same state.

 

The cultivation in Neidan means you do some practices that lead you to a transformation. Basically, you don't have even know what yangshen is in reality to reach that state practically. So there is no need to mimic something you don't know.