Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[blue eyed snake]

Let people find their own ways. No they don't all lead to xiantian-hood this life-time, nor should they. Many are those who seek immortality before they are ready for it, but in one way or another, they will find their true way, even if it takes thousands of trials.

 

I feel it is important to redirect people to the heart, to emptiness, to the tao. But the way to these things comes from connecting to them through one's own heart - we find balance through listening to the calling of our own destiny. A lineaged master taught this to me, bemoaning the many who practice various "spiritual trainings" when they are being called to fulfill their destiny by every step of their lives. I was taught we are all born with exactly the amount of energy required to fulfill our destiny and in so doing achieve self mastery. And that every time we fail, we end up dying and finally looking back at the gift of our life with full understanding of what we needed to do, and spend time waiting and waiting for the opportunity to do it right this next time.

 

The east is merging with the west; taoists recently rejected in the east perhaps are being reborn into western lands along with the germinating teachings of their homeland. Even as the deeper roots are slowly uncovered, so too will new changes come as pathfinders blaze a trail up the western side of the mountain. Telling them they aren't on the eastern trails is hardly as helpful as calling down from the top.

 

I like this post from Daeluin very much,

 

I don't know anything about all the chinese wisdom of chi and what it can do for the human body and soul. But I'm very interested.

At the same time I find I'm happy my teacher doesn't tell us a damned thing, he looks at us, smiles and says: "Just feel what is happening inside." And when you're on the verge of something, he gives a hint as to how to proceed. I see what he can do and I know he's willing to teach anybody of us that is willing, working and humble. On our tempo and starting level.

 

For me, all strange kinds of energetic experiences began about 3 years ago after I had forgiven someone what he did to me. 30 years ago.

 

I was just reading in 'the way of the golden elixer', thanks to the one who posted that, nice forum!

 

and I read: "In the way of superior virtue, the state prior to the separation of the One into the Two and into multiplicity is spontaneously attained, and the fundamental Unity of the precelestial and the postcelestial domains is immediately comprehended."

for me that sums it up nicely.

But I would still like to know what the word/abbreviation SHO means,

BES

[Yae]

even though some parts of this discussion are going over my head,

other parts I find very interesting.

Could someone please inform me about the meaning of the word/abbreviation SHO?

 

thanks

 

Oh, SHO is "Small Heavenly Orbit". Here's a lil piccy. http://www.michaeleakin.com/wp-content/uploads/microcosmic-orbit-150x150.jpg

 

Also known as the Microcosmic Orbit. Uhh other people would explain it better than me.

[Yae]

I never said "focusing on the emptiness is enough to cultivate the yuanshen."

 

On the contrary, Taoist Yoga book emphasizes you need the quick fire focus to drive up the jing energy since fire-spirit is not strong enough on its own.

 

Sorry for that. Quick fire and focus on the Emptiness, what else? Active exercises and celibacy?

 

But what if you really are missing part of the puzzle, missing the preheaven methods that have apparently never changed, have been passed down from the original master or something. I need to be more organized so I can do things like post the reference for that.

 

Lol "hissy fit". It might be true though.

[blue eyed snake]

thank you Bluemind,

if it is the same as MCO, it doesn't need theoretical explaining anymore

[Yae]

I'm aware of people hissy-fitting over the Taoist Yoga book but there has yet to be any particular evidence used against it. I have searched for any evidence and presented what I could find despite the people raising the accusation not giving their own evidence. I know that the "school" that claims Taoist Yoga is just an incomplete text of a later branch of it - well someone else pointed out on this site that actually a different school - the Longmen - was more of an influence on the Taoist Yoga book.

 

Does Longmen fit the criteria for a true Neidan school having complete methods for xing and ming?

 

As for needing a personal teacher - well Chunyi is a personal teacher.

 

Mhm but Opendao and other Neidan practitioners here consider his practices new(-age?) qigong and say it's not capable of building yuanshen. I want to ask him if he teaches "complete methods for xing and ming". But Opendao would likely say no right off the bat.

 

For example on that "Single Yang" website they make a complaint against qigong masters doing lots of successful healing because those masters burn up their energy and so despite doing all that healing their skin becomes withered.

 

Well you know as well as I do that Chunyi's skin is not withered and prematurely wrinkled.

 

That's true Chunyi does seem youthful. He is balding which is attributed to the healing (yin spirits coming out of his head as you've said) but you've said his hair would come back if he stopped and did more cave meditation.

 

My mom was born 2 weeks before him... I think they look pretty similar in that regard, aside from the balding. Chunyi was talking about pore breathing being good for the skin once on Healing Connection and said when he visited his family he went to a bathhouse with his brothers and the difference was very apparent between his body and his brothers'. He's 56.

 

And besides - as I've said - he plans on continuing his work on the golden immortal yang shen after he has built up enough good deeds and virtue, etc. That's even described in the Taoist Yoga book - you make a yang shen and then you go out into the world and do good deeds as a healer.

 

That's interesting, does he need to do the good deeds he's doing now to progress further?

 

I secretly wondered - what if Chunyi's body is his yang shen while he actual physical body is still in a cave in China. haha.

 

Haha that would be awesome. I mean if he really can then why not?

[voidisyinyang]

yeah but keep in mind also the females in general on average live 8 years longer so usually look a lot younger for their age - because females are yang internally.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qm3JJkv6D-UC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=yuanshen+and+fa+shen&source=bl&ots=OD3l6sALNx&sig=ReKYeHtakurrH4XHncLWtIqaU3A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fWPAVIjsHsy-ggTGy4L4CA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=yuanshen%20and%20fa%20shen&f=false

 

Also keep in mind that Chunyi has done amazing healing - with all the testimonials online, etc.

 

So then you have a couple people posting here against qigong as being fake, etc. but only because their "school" as the only real authentic teachings. I, myself, would not go by someone's word but by your experience with the teacher.

 

I just posted a link of a Buddhist debunking Falun Gong - even Chunyi was saying how their qigong leader is fake - and that is obvious New Age propaganda with all the e.t. b.s. but also keep in mind that Falun Gong is spread for free by principle and so that's how it became so huge. As Chunyi states the practices of Falun Gong are effective and do work - but obviously when people demanded the leader fly as he said he could - he could not perform. haha. But just as I was speculating about Chunyi that book notes how the Falun Gong leader claim his body does not really exist because he's achieved what?

 

Yuanshen or "fu yuan shen."

 

In fact the term used by the Taoist Yoga book is "fa shen."

 

When Chunyi said he had an advanced small universe meditation so that he saw falling snow - this meant, he was referring to the alchemical stage right before the yang shen is created.

 

So if he as a teacher has achieved yang shen as I already asked him - then he can teach someone that level if they were able to practice to that level.

 

Chunyi has stated that in fact the small universe meditation can take you to the most advanced levels and so that is what he is referring to - the practice as described in Taoist Yoga with small universe taking you to the yang shen level.

 

But again as I said - only in 2000 did I hear him say that you have to have no thoughts about sex to get to advanced level and so he does not require such strict standards obviously. He teaches qigong for health but also for enlightenment but he says he could teach another 22 levels higher than he does. He did add a Level 5 but again that is nothing compared to what he could teach. It's just that very few have the discipline to be able to handle that kind of energy.

 

I assure you when he was working on opening my third eye then the middle of my brain was on fire. haha. It is very intense but even then you need to first build up the lower tan tien as the foundation to be able to handle higher energy.

 

Instead of questioning his abilities maybe you should question whether you're worthy to be his student! haha. In the traditional training the student is chosen and most are not worthy - so obviously if he is teaching qigong to anyone who can pay then it limits what level he can teach.

 

http://lostsecretofimmortality.tumblr.com/

 

That's "Yuan shen" from a more transcultural perspective.

 

So that film maker East Asians student has a New Age perspective in my opinion because the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality means you have to maintain celibacy of the mind or else the small universe goes in reverse - the opposite.

 

So that film maker is saying that the kundalini fire has to be activated but the thing is that by tantra as Taoist Yoga teaches the person sending out their yin chi energy is actually burning up their yuan qi. I know this from experience.

 

So I would say yeah if you study qigong like I did - then if you want advanced training you have to study the Taoist Yoga book along with the other alchemy books because the qigong masters, even if they have those abilities, are focused on teaching a huge group of people and so the information gets watered down.

 

For example Chunyi said my main blockage was a lung blockage. I didn't know what he was getting at but now I know he meant how the element metal is the yang in water - the jing energy. So as Taoist Yoga specifies the biggest impediment to success is that the passions get inflamed by success in the practice and this causes the yin chi to be lost out of the eyes. So you can still have physical celibacy but still lost yuan chi energy.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[opendao]

Does Longmen fit the criteria for a true Neidan school having complete methods for xing and ming?

 

Longmen is a branch of Quanzhen Dao with a lot of masters (living today). They are of a different level and teach different things. Some of them are frauds, including some big names.

 

What people don't want to get is the distance between actual teaching and Taoist Yoga book. What exactly did Zhao Bichen learn in Wu-Liu and other schools? What did he get through his own practice? What % of it he put in his book? What and how was translated by Charles Luk (I've shown before that some paragraphs were removed completely)?

 

Do you really want to get all this answers or it's enough to see the result?

 

 

 

Mhm but Opendao and other Neidan practitioners here consider his practices new(-age?) qigong and say it's not capable of building yuanshen. I want to ask him if he teaches "complete methods for xing and ming". But Opendao would likely say no right off the bat.

 

I understand when people discuss achievements of Huineng or Serafim of Sarov. I understand when people don't believe in yangshen at all because in our time it's hard to witness such things. But to discuss Chunyi's abilities... I see no proofs. If he is so cool in Neidan, why his students here write without knowing even basics of Neidan? Why for them Taoist Yoga book is a superior source of knowledge and they are ready to close eyes to all its mistakes? What's a point to speak about yangshen, if previous levels were not achieved and there are no any signs of it? Just a waste of time, in my opinion.

 

That's true Chunyi does seem youthful. He is balding which is attributed to the healing (yin spirits coming out of his head as you've said)

 

good joke Chunyi said that?

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[voidisyinyang]

Believing in the validity of the instructions in "Taoist Yoga" and following them as presented in the book is one thing.

Adding made-up new age BS like "correcting" the given locations and definitions of diverse cavities and fantasizing about additional centers and processes not given in the book at all while claiming to be the authority on it is far worse.

Good luck with that, seekers...

 

Maybe you want to give some specific evidence if you think I've said something inaccurate.

[voidisyinyang]

But to discuss Chunyi's abilities... I see no proofs.

 

That's called willful ignorance.

 

Good luck with that.

[voidisyinyang]

Also I never said Taoist Yoga was the "superior" text for training.

 

It's the best I've found so far and that's based on my personal experiences being explained by the book.

 

Now this is a forum where we freely share information.

 

Again if you have any evidence of better information - go ahead and present it.

 

Don't just try to sell your school by saying - pay money and will give you secrets. haha.

 

That's New Ageism to me.

 

The only thing so far that has been "missing" from Taoist Yoga is, again, some exercises to clear out the yin chi psychic channels. As I said that's no big deal you can do that with basic Tai Chi exercises found in SFQ.

 

As for discussing "yang shen" - again I personally asked Chunyi if he had achieved that. For my own practice I just got up to chapter six in Taoist Yoga but since I had not studied the book closely enough then I wasn't ready to continue.

 

The Cavity of Prenatal Vitality as not being the same as the Cavity of Spirit is a key insight that I have yet to see in any other books. No one else has ever shared this information and despite people continually dissing Taoist Yoga I only discovered that info by going back to study the book more.

 

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

Now granted most people are probably not at the level where that information is directly helpful but for me its impact is immediate.

 

As I posted it is the equivalent of the "empowerment" level discussed in Cleary's SGF book.

 

There are lots of different "schools" squabbling over supposed differences in high level abilities. For example Bodri and Nan's tome "Measuring Meditation" states how the Taoist Yoga book doesn't achieve the highest level since it doesn't follow the Mahayana Buddhist path.

[Daeluin]

For example Chunyi said my main blockage was a lung blockage. I didn't know what he was getting at but now I know he meant how the element metal is the yang in water - the jing energy. So as Taoist Yoga specifies the biggest impediment to success is that the passions get inflamed by success in the practice and this causes the yin chi to be lost out of the eyes. So you can still have physical celibacy but still lost yuan chi energy.

 

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Yae]

What people don't want to get is the distance between actual teaching and Taoist Yoga book. What exactly did Zhao Bichen learn in Wu-Liu and other schools? What did he get through his own practice? What % of it he put in his book? What and how was translated by Charles Luk (I've shown before that some paragraphs were removed completely)?

 

Do you really want to get all this answers or it's enough to see the result?

 

 

 

 

I understand when people discuss achievements of Huineng or Serafim of Sarov. I understand when people don't believe in yangshen at all because in our time it's hard to witness such things. But to discuss Chunyi's abilities... I see no proofs. If he is so cool in Neidan, why his students here write without knowing even basics of Neidan? Why for them Taoist Yoga book is a superior source of knowledge and they are ready to close eyes to all its mistakes? What's a point to speak about yangshen, if previous levels were not achieved and there are no any signs of it? Just a waste of time, in my opinion.

 

It sure would be nice if we could compare that photo^ and Chunyi's photo to an accomplished true Neidan practitioner's photo at a similar age. But it seems even those attainments are guarded secrets until you've actually been in the school.

 

There's a healing qigong practice called Chi Lel, I have a book on it about people's amazing healing stories. Here is part of one titled "A New Tooth Grew in an Old Mouth":

 

"'...One day, I was surprised to find a new tooth growing in my gums!'

Mr. Zhang opened his mouth and showed a baby tooth to me. 'It's a miracle. If even a tooth can grow back, it's no wonder I feel so good after practicing Chi Lel. I figure that the rest of my internal organs must have rejuvenated themselves like my tooth has done. And on my head, black hairs have started coming back.'

Mr. Zhang proudly showed me a few shreds of black among all his gray hair."...

 

Tooth and hair regeneration are considered possible only with yangshen cultivation right? So would you say this guy has to be lying? I can't verify that the story is true.

 

I think most if not all of the other stories are considered possible with post-heaven practice, different miraculous healings + some third eye experiences.

 

Yesterday an SFQ student said that visualizing yourself as a pure ball of light before you ever incarnated etc is a preheaven practice. The practitioners are generally not in touch with traditional Neidan at all, the focus is on things like mindfulness and positive focus and visualization.

 

Jaci Gran who has been with Chunyi Lin for something like 20 years didn't seem to have anything to say about the concept of preheaven cultivation. Jim Nance might... He was there for the same length of time I think.

 

good joke Chunyi said that?

 

I mean if healing depletes yangshen, and if he has a way to replenish it, then that makes sense. The thing about the yin spirits making him lose hair is I think something Innersound said that Chunyi Lin has said, I dunno about that part.

[voidisyinyang]

It sure would be nice if we could compare that photo^ and Chunyi's photo to an accomplished true Neidan practitioner's photo at a similar age. But it seems even those attainments are guarded secrets until you've actually been in the school.

 

There's a healing qigong practice called Chi Lel, I have a book on it about people's amazing healing stories. Here is part of one titled "A New Tooth Grew in an Old Mouth":

 

"'...One day, I was surprised to find a new tooth growing in my gums!'

Mr. Zhang opened his mouth and showed a baby tooth to me. 'It's a miracle. If even a tooth can grow back, it's no wonder I feel so good after practicing Chi Lel. I figure that the rest of my internal organs must have rejuvenated themselves like my tooth has done. And on my head, black hairs have started coming back.'

Mr. Zhang proudly showed me a few shreds of black among all his gray hair."...

 

Tooth and hair regeneration are considered possible only with yangshen cultivation right? So would you say this guy has to be lying? I can't verify that the story is true.

 

I think most if not all of the other stories are considered possible with post-heaven practice, different miraculous healings + some third eye experiences.

 

Yesterday an SFQ student said that visualizing yourself as a pure ball of light before you ever incarnated etc is a preheaven practice. The practitioners are generally not in touch with traditional Neidan at all, the focus is on things like mindfulness and positive focus and visualization.

 

Jaci Gran who has been with Chunyi Lin for something like 20 years didn't seem to have anything to say about the concept of preheaven cultivation. Jim Nance might... He was there for the same length of time I think.

 

 

I mean if healing depletes yangshen, and if he has a way to replenish it, then that makes sense. The thing about the yin spirits making him lose hair is I think something Innersound said that Chunyi Lin has said, I dunno about that part.

 

The issue of "preheaven cultivation" is based on the Cavity of PreNatal Vitality - to focus on the Emptiness.

 

So the Cavity of Spirit is the light energy but when you focus your intention on the Emptiness that intention is turned toward the PreHeaven cultivation aka the Prenatal Vitality of the pineal gland.

 

That process creates the Cavity of Spirit-vitality which is then the lower tan tien.

 

When it fills up then you activate the yang qi which gives you a Tai Chi experience as the Cavity of Original Spirit.

 

So that is called "Laying the foundation" but the problem is that as the yang qi is activated it comes with healing powers.

 

So SFQ teaches to use those healing powers. Chunyi recently said how what happens is people have an enlightenment experience but then over use their energy.

 

The issue is that only when the third eye is fully open can the yang qi energy be restored.

 

So as Taoist Yoga states, for example, if you lose the alchemical pill via ejaculation - the issue is how much of that energy was post-heaven from food energy or how much was pre-heaven from the PreNatal Vitality?

 

So the thing is with the third eye fully open then you can easily and constantly recharge the Pre-Natal Vitality by focusing on the Emptiness - so Chunyi has said he can do this while he is healing people.

 

But recharging your energy is not the same as storing it up and reversing the effects of aging.

 

So to store up the energy and reverse the effects of aging then you need more seclusion and to stop healing other people.

 

As for wanting to base someone's teachings on their photo - that is silly in my opinion because the teaching is a truth on its own regardless of how effective someone practices it.

 

For example Master Nan, Huai-chin died from pneumonia and was a smoker but also he was swarmed by students and so in my opinion he just over-exerted himself teaching.

 

In contrast Taoist Master Ni, Hua-ching has gone into seclusion for probably the last 15 years or so.

 

So it depends on the choice of the teacher - the Ch'an teachings are full of this - how a person can have direct contact with the pre-heaven awareness as the Emptiness but that doesn't mean they are storing up their energy.

 

But most people never even fill up their lower tan tiens to make that initial enlightenment Tai Chi experience - because again to do so requires constant focus on the Emptiness as the creation of the lower tan tien cavity of spirit-vitality.

 

SFQ does not use all these alchemy terms but as you said - they are "concepts" and yet experiences can still occur without the words used to define them.

 

So these experiences actually were all discovered by the original human culture, the Bushmen of Africa, and so then spread around the world after tens of thousands of years of practice - and did they use these terms? Nope.

 

For example Chunyi used to teach, "the more you heal others, the more you heal yourself." So based on that motto I used to send people yin chi energy all the time. But then Jim Nance told me that actually not until the third eye is fully open are you able to recharge your healing energy fast enough so as not to deplete it. What Chunyi said is then people who overuse their third eye then get fat because they have to rely on post-heaven sources of energy to recharge themselves.

 

So then what is the answer? Only more meditation! haha. So in that sense - yes the more you heal others, the more you heal yourself because you are then forced to go deeper into the Emptiness in order to fix the blockage.

 

But you seem to be fixated on figuring out the concepts - and that is good - but I would say that the meditation process requires less conceptual thinking and more Emptiness seclusion.

 

I'm not saying that meditation makes life easier but the intensity of life definitely increases - so for example Master Nan, Huai-chin said how with meditation then you get righteous anger too easily and also it's too difficult to purify the body-mind and so it is easier to just not meditate.

 

But that is the existential dilemma of the Emptiness - who are we "not" to meditate? In fact meditation as resonance is the natural truth of reality.

 

So accessing "pre-heaven" energy is as easy as the source of the I-thought - the logical inference of the source of consciousness.

 

But the mind on its own is weak and that is why the details of the alchemical training are key.

 

For example I heard Chunyi say the term "Jing" once back in 2000. That was it - and then someone asked another SFQ qigong master about jing and she answered how their are different kinds of jing, etc.

 

So as Chunyi recently said he is less focused on spreading information as he is on helping people heal and improve their lives, etc.

 

I did personally see Chunyi creating yin spirit after yin spirit out of the top of his head and he has confirmed that the top of his head gets soft and the space between the skull opens up. Whether that would affect the hair growth or not - I don't know - but I think it would.

 

I also think doing amazing healings like he does would definitely make it difficult for him to store up his energy as a way for him to reverse his aging. He obviously has done that to a certain extent - even I have done that also. Someone told me they didn't believe my age - I've had a couple people recently think I was 15 to 20 years younger than I am. But that was just because I had shaved my beard so I looked a lot younger but even without shaving people guessed I was 15 years younger.

 

The thing about qigong is that you are resonating your collagen which controls the skin elasticity - and deep meditation restores the bone marrow. So as for growing back bones - I remember one Level 3 class where a lady announced she had grown significantly taller from the qigong practice and Chunyi's healings. Chunyi has also talked about people being healed of paralysis - and Jim himself - I met a man that Jim healed of "club foot" which is a bone condition - the bone literally bent back into the correct position during a 45 minute healing session that Jim did. That man gave a video testimonial but SFQ did not release it since Jim needed to keep focusing on building up his own energy to heal himself more, etc.

 

So yeah it is said the highest masters remain secret to keep focusing on building up their energy and - Chunyi said this - how he knows masters in the mountains who are attaining their golden immortality. So when Chunyi will go into retirement to join them - I don't know.

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.allthingshealing.com/Acupuncture/Chinese-Inner-Alchemy-Medical-Qigong-Part-5-Exploring-Ancient-Chinese-Metaphysics/6821#.VMGQCeFjcxI

 

http://yang-sheng.com/?p=2702

 

A couple links for corroboration

Edited January 23, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[opendao]

Tooth and hair regeneration are considered possible only with yangshen cultivation right? So would you say this guy has to be lying? I can't verify that the story is true.

 

stories have to be researched IF it is something that resonates inside of you. They can be anything.

 

Yesterday an SFQ student said that visualizing yourself as a pure ball of light before you ever incarnated etc is a preheaven practice.

 

this is common for qigong to think this way, but has no relation to neidan...

 

I mean if healing depletes yangshen, and if he has a way to replenish it, then that makes sense. The thing about the yin spirits making him lose hair is I think something Innersound said that Chunyi Lin has said, I dunno about that part.

 

All his stories are full of practical mistakes... really nothing to discuss.

[voidisyinyang]

Since I know everything there is nothing to say. Hilarious! Try that approach in a real school and see how far you get with the professors. haha. Chilel healing has an ultrasound video of its effectiveness in shrinking a tumor in real time. So where's your proof oh great "real alchemy" school? Time to start delivering some goods instead of just obscure references to trendy terms.

 

Over the years on thetaobums there have been probably half a dozen of 'schools" stopping by to attempt to pick up students - and some have actually created a temporary craze and then they disappear. haha.

 

It's very easy to be a critic - and I'm sure the teachings of your school are great. I have read the website and there is nothing I disagree with - but to claim it's the only real truth is an obvious set-back.

 

That's pretty obvious isn't it?

 

First of all you set up a straw-man argument - label something qigong and presto it obviously has "no relation" to neidan. Both again are just words - it's a semantic silliness that means nothing on its own.

 

Then you dismiss something again without providing any evidence. So you want people to just "follow" along based on your consistent dismissal of everything else - that is a good cult tactic.

 

stories have to be researched IF it is something that resonates inside of you. They can be anything.

 

 

this is common for qigong to think this way, but has no relation to neidan...

 

 

All his stories are full of practical mistakes... really nothing to discuss.

[idquest]

I actually visited Daode website and I noticed that they enroll students to qigong classes. So I'm not really sure why this fight against qigong.

[Yae]

stories have to be researched IF it is something that resonates inside of you. They can be anything.

 

This didn't especially resonate as true or untrue, but it did add to the question of existence of preheaven results outside of the traditional Neidan teaching, which is only a consideration of mine because of the topic of bilocation. It seems like there are too many stories of it (bilocation) in too many cultures for them all to be false. It just seems like something worth thinking about.

 

Since I know everything there is nothing to say. Hilarious! Try that approach in a real school and see how far you get with the professors. haha. Chilel healing has an ultrasound video of its effectiveness in shrinking a tumor in real time. So where's your proof oh great "real alchemy" school? Time to start delivering some goods instead of just obscure references to trendy terms.

 

Over the years on thetaobums there have been probably half a dozen of 'schools" stopping by to attempt to pick up students - and some have actually created a temporary craze and then they disappear. haha.

 

It's very easy to be a critic - and I'm sure the teachings of your school are great. I have read the website and there is nothing I disagree with - but to claim it's the only real truth is an obvious set-back.

 

That's pretty obvious isn't it?

 

First of all you set up a straw-man argument - label something qigong and presto it obviously has "no relation" to neidan. Both again are just words - it's a semantic silliness that means nothing on its own.

 

I think it's less "presto" and more that the methods are fundamentally different.

 

Then you dismiss something again without providing any evidence. So you want people to just "follow" along based on your consistent dismissal of everything else - that is a good cult tactic.

 

Hmm... I'm following along based on the logic of trusting the foundation of a tradition and lineage.. And yeah the dismissals, but it sounds like he's quite solidly passing on the perspective (dismissals and all) of his teaching, which seems like a very valuable perspective to consider.

 

Also.. if you really think that the teachings of the school are great then you (we) would have to disagree with the idea that high-level qigong practice could be anything like this neidan so long as it focuses on things like visualization and meditation and not on whatever the neidan methods are.

 

The Yuxianpai and Wuliupai practitioners here don't claim that theirs is the only correct teaching, just that, if one wants to pursue the goals of Neidan, one should "avoid false Neidan schools with no lineage and without complete methods of Xing and Ming."

[Yae]

I actually visited Daode website and I noticed that they enroll students to qigong classes. So I'm not really sure why this fight against qigong.

 

The argument is really just that it can't do what Neidan does.

 

Apparently it's used as a prepatory practice in Neidan schools, but it's not to be considered Neidan by any means.

[voidisyinyang]

O.K. I read through the infamous "Neidan vs Qigong" thread http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/page-25

 

Where many people make the same complaints I have.

 

Essential for "real" Neidan it has to be a secret closed teaching - in China it is not for foreigners.

 

Well whatever people - this is a forum.

 

Also Bluemind it was Ramana Maharshi who had his heart stop for over 5 minutes but Chunyi said his heart stopped for 2 hours! He was walking around just fine.

 

So is that still post-heaven energy? haha.

 

Anyway - my point is that sure if people want to consider qigong to be preparatory for the real training - that's fine - but that doesn't meant qigong masters haven't done the real training.

 

Also - someone on that thread of Neidan vs. Qigong said Taoist Yoga is dismissed since it teaches Xing has to be first before Ming. But if you actually study the book - it says that almost no one can achieve Xing first - as the Cavity of Original Spirit (chapter 1) and so the rest of the training has to be pursued - which is filling up the lower tan tien, etc.

 

So anyway I now fully accept that the issue at hand is to never actually say what "real" Ming training is since it has to be secret, etc. - As everyone complained in the other thread - thanks for making me read 25 pages for nothing. haha.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Aetherous]

But if you actually study the book - it says that almost no one can achieve Xing first

 

Where does it say that?

[Yae]

Also Bluemind it was Ramana Maharshi who had his heart stop for over 5 minutes but Chunyi said his heart stopped for 2 hours! He was walking around just fine.

 

So is that still post-heaven energy? haha.

 

zombie energy? what do zombies run on... well it sounds like a maybe but I don't even want to touch that y'know. cause I don't know.

 

Anyway - my point is that sure if people want to consider qigong to be preparatory for the real training - that's fine - but that doesn't meant qigong masters haven't done the real training.

 

That's where I am right now too. But it seems like regardless it would be a good idea to learn the real training from a traditional school with teachers who I think might be more active in guiding people through these processes than Chunyi who is focused on healing.

 

Also - someone on that thread of Neidan vs. Qigong said Taoist Yoga is dismissed since it teaches Xing has to be first before Ming. But if you actually study the book - it says that almost no one can achieve Xing first - as the Cavity of Original Spirit (chapter 1) and so the rest of the training has to be pursued - which is filling up the lower tan tien, etc.

 

I think I read that some schools do ming first and some do xing.

 

So anyway I know fully accept that the issue at hand is to never actually say what "real" Ming training is since it has to be secret, etc. - As everyone complained in the other thread - thanks for making me read 25 pages for nothing. haha.

 

Woops sorry, yes that's an important part of this conversation... It's freely available but only in person. But the methods are only taught after I think 2 or was it 3 years. But in Wuliupai there's the preheaven method JIUYANGSHENGONG that's taught after like a month and is like a sample of preheaven work to introduce it, but it's not capable of cultivating the yangshen.

[opendao]

Since I know everything there is nothing to say. Hilarious! Try that approach in a real school and see how far you get with the professors. haha. Chilel healing has an ultrasound video of its effectiveness in shrinking a tumor in real time. So where's your proof oh great "real alchemy" school? Time to start delivering some goods instead of just obscure references to trendy terms.

 

neidan is not about healing, so it proves really nothing... same as heart or breath stopping. It shows that somebody knows how to spend the preheaven energy, but it says nothing about person's neidan achievements. So yes, qigong masters do really interesting things sometimes, but do you really know what neidan masters do? If not, then nothing to compare. My point is that it's different and worth to explore. But it doesn't mean I will publish photos and videos of people who don't want to be public at all. It's your life, after all, not mine. I can only provide some hints for those who have a chance to understand.

 

Over the years on thetaobums there have been probably half a dozen of 'schools" stopping by to attempt to pick up students - and some have actually created a temporary craze and then they disappear. haha.

 

but you still here. Does it mean something? hahaha

 

It's very easy to be a critic - and I'm sure the teachings of your school are great. I have read the website and there is nothing I disagree with - but to claim it's the only real truth is an obvious set-back.

 

That's pretty obvious isn't it?

 

obvious for me, that there are other teachings that lead to real neidan achievements. And people from such schools exist even on this forum.

 

Also obvious that there a lot who claim to know Neidan but offer nothing real.

 

The only way to distinguish is to understand the theory, find a teacher who satisfies theory requirements, then learn and practice. Only after that it's possible to come and claim anything.

 

My only wish is that people do it based on facts, not on new-age beliefs and fast-food practices.

 

First of all you set up a straw-man argument - label something qigong and presto it obviously has "no relation" to neidan. Both again are just words - it's a semantic silliness that means nothing on its own.

 

maybe for you it's just about words, but for me the difference is practical.

 

Then you dismiss something again without providing any evidence. So you want people to just "follow" along based on your consistent dismissal of everything else - that is a good cult tactic.

 

What evidences you have on contrast to say that TY book can lead anybody to immortality?

 

What evidences you need to understand that it's impossible to work with preheaven by means of qigong and books? If you don't feel that "cavity of primal spirit" cannot be something physical, then I also have nothing really to say... It's your wish to belief, good luck with that.

 

I don't know why you need to pull other people to do the same though...