Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[opendao]

I actually visited Daode website and I noticed that they enroll students to qigong classes. So I'm not really sure why this fight against qigong.

 

there is no fight. We practice and teach traditional qigong sets and they play an important role for modern people (as we all are) as a preparation for neidan or to maintain healthy life style for those who have no interest in neidan.

 

The speech here is about differences between qigong and neidan, because nowadays there are a lot of schools in China and abroad that claim a possibility to achieve immortality by using modern qigong practices and theories

 

Again, if you want health and well-being, then traditional qigong is a good solution.

If you want immortality, Dao and freedom then qigong doesn't work, only neidan is a solution.

[voidisyinyang]

Where does it say that?

 

Taoist Yoga quotes from chapters 1 to 2:

If the original cavity of spirit is constantly held on to vital force will develop of itself...to produce the golden elixir. ...The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct...to create offspring....It is only when true vitality develops and unites with essential nature to become one whole that the latter is called the precious cauldron....Since olden times many men and women have been ruined by the harmful effects of the generative fluid....If he does not know how to take advantage of the absence of thoughts in this condition of stillness to gather true vitality when the positive manifests (causing the penis to stand up) he will give rise to sexual desire which will transform the generative force into postnatal generative fluid which (is useless and) cannot be gathered.

 

 

Innersoundqigong, on 22 Jan 2015 - 22:11, said:

But if you actually study the book - it says that almost no one can achieve Xing first

[Aetherous]

So...it doesn't say that.

[voidisyinyang]

So...it doesn't say that.

 

You have proven my point. thanks.

[thelerner]

SFQ does not use all these alchemy terms but as you said - they are "concepts" and yet experiences can still occur without the words used to define them.

<One, I'm sorry this thread is getting side tracked into pissing contests.>

 

Two, I think the above is an important point. Practice and progress are much more important then intellectual jargon and concepts. Knowing the full history and philosophy is nice, but counts for little.. practice is the key. The person who knows a few things and practices diligently with integrity will be light years ahead of the scholar who spends more time on research then on the mat.

 

Imo in the West we truly need to know less and do more. We tend to be way too top heavy, living in our heads. Dropping the books and internet and spending time in secluded cabin would probably advance us far more then learning any 'secret' technique.

Edited January 24, 2015 by thelerner

[voidisyinyang]

But still there are mysteries to be revealed by studying the texts.

 

Please keep in mind that the Taoist Yoga book has explained things for me that I discovered by my training - and no teacher could explain them to me! Including the "internal alchemy" gurus on this forum. haha.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-lack-of-power-in-external-seeing.html?zx=d00cbf04bc919277

 

And so I find even more secrets explained with my latest study tonight of the Taoist Yoga book.

[dawei]

So...it doesn't say that.

 

I think the point was that one has to gather true vitality and not let it 'spill'; the former rises to vital force and the latter cannot be gathered. This is Ming.

 

If not done properly, Xing will not be fully achieved.

[Aetherous]

I think the point was that one has to gather true vitality and not let it 'spill'; the former rises to vital force and the latter cannot be gathered. This is Ming.

 

If not done properly, Xing will not be fully achieved.

 

In my understanding according to that book, holding to the cavity of spirit (a Xing practice of essential nature) produces generative/vital force (Ming or life). Or perhaps yuanshen produces or refills yuanjing and yuanqi (I know this is not what opendao and others think, but this is what I believe Taoist Yoga is saying). If the generative/vital force is spilled by having sexual desires, then the the cultivation of extra life force is wasted...but Xing is still fully achieved.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Aetherous

[voidisyinyang]

In my understanding according to that book, holding to the cavity of spirit (a Xing practice of essential nature) produces generative/vital force (Ming or life). Or perhaps yuanshen produces or refills yuanjing and yuanqi (I know this is not what opendao and others think, but this is what I believe Taoist Yoga is saying). If the generative/vital force is spilled by having sexual desires, then the the cultivation of extra life force is wasted...but Xing is still fully achieved.

 

This is not true.

 

The lower tan tien has to be filled or else the brain does not yet have the "precious cauldron" - the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality does not yet contain the "wondrous light" of the Tai Chi. The Cavity of Spirit and Cavity of Prenatal Vitality need to unite to manifest the Cavity of Original Spirit this is done through the lower tan tien filling up as the Cavity of Prenatal Spirit-Vitality.

 

p. 84:

 

 

Taoist teaching seems to lay more stress on cultivating (eternal) life while neglecting that of (essential) nature. Only chapter 1 deals with 'fixing spirit in its original cavity (between and behind the eyes)' which pertains to nature. Why does the teaching deal with life more than nature?

 

I'll let you study the answer for yourself.

 

But please keep in mind that the "extra" generative force is very much needed for the practice - there's absolutely no way Xing can be achieved without Ming.

 

p. 55

 

This does not mean merely replacing the dissipated generative force as that force should be retained and developed so that you can recover the supply which was latent in you at the time of puberty.

 

and to prove the connection of Xing to the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality in the brain as per the necessity of first filling up the lower tan tien:

 

When the heart is stirred by sexual desire, it is impossible to draw back this vital force which will drain down in the marrow of the spine to leave the body; it will then be impossible to cultivate (eternal) life. That which so drains off is prenatal vitality...

 

 

p. 66

 

 

and

 

 

Before the umbilical cord is cut, the (baby's essential) nature and (eternal) life are inseparable: this state is called prenatal.

 

p. 83

 

 

The profound method of preserving nature does not go beyond the paths of the tu mo (controlling) and jen mo (functioning) channels.

p. 84

 

 

The cultivation of both nature and life leads to the realisation of this light of prenatal vitality whereas the production of postnatal negative spirit results in consciousness.

p. 79

 

 

....according to the doctrine of the cultivation of both (essential) nature and (eternal) life, you will realise the positive spirit which is the outcome on meditation of the void which is not empty (i.e. is the absolute) and is beyond birth and death.

 

p. 79

 

The light of vitality thus seen while your eyes are open is the Mysterious Gate which reveals the real nature realised by cultivating both (essential) nature and (eternal) life, which is the secret of alchemy.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Aetherous]

This is not true.

 

The lower tan tien has to be filled or else the brain does not yet have the "precious cauldron" - the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality does not yet contain the "wondrous light" of the Tai Chi. The Cavity of Spirit and Cavity of Prenatal Vitality need to unite to manifest the Cavity of Original Spirit this is done through the lower tan tien filling up as the Cavity of Prenatal Spirit-Vitality.

 

I'm just going to say this once in response: you are not interpreting the book correctly. I realize that you think the same thing about me.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Ish]

Oh , it's ON!

[voidisyinyang]

posting quotes is not an "interpretation"

 

 

Laying the Foundation (Xing) is achieved after chapter 8.

 

The point of Chapters 5 to 8 is to make sure that no lost of Ming has occurred.

 

The lower tan tien has to be sealed into a deeper inner cauldron to prevent it from turning back into fluid. Or else it will "spill over" as you say is o.k. Nope - that is not o.k.

 

So no - there can be no leaking of Ming to achieve Xing.

 

 

If the mind is truly set on gathering and union, basic vitality will not scatter; it will then help the alchemical pregnancy which is the outcome of cultivating both (essential) nature and (eternal) life.

 

p. 78.

[thelerner]

Oh , it's ON!

chi gung war, chi gung war, or maybe death match rap.

 

back on subject.

 

With an impasse about book interpretation, I'd be interested in hearing about how you've personally experienced the phenomena you're talking about.

[Daeluin]

In my understanding according to that book, holding to the cavity of spirit (a Xing practice of essential nature) produces generative/vital force (Ming or life). Or perhaps yuanshen produces or refills yuanjing and yuanqi (I know this is not what opendao and others think, but this is what I believe Taoist Yoga is saying). If the generative/vital force is spilled by having sexual desires, then the the cultivation of extra life force is wasted...but Xing is still fully achieved.

 

Holding to the cavity of spirit sounds similar to guarding unity - essentially keeping the heart in a state of quiescence so as to prevent the spending of what returns. If the heart is restless, how can one hope maintain preservation? Thus this is an essential practice.

 

In that sense I feel you are all saying the same thing.

 

 

 

[Aetherous]

With an impasse about book interpretation, I'd be interested in hearing about how you've personally experienced the phenomena you're talking about.

 

Red phoenix level 1 from Kunlun.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Daeluin]

I think I read that some schools do ming first and some do xing.

 

Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy (tl. Pregadio):

 

Nature (Xing) and Life (Ming). With regard to the alchemical practice, Awakening to Reality maintains that the cultivation of Ming should precede the cultivation of Xing, and that "doing" should precede "non-doing." Of course, this does not mean that, at the beginning of the practice, one receives only instructions on compounding the Elixir, and that nothing at all is conveyed on the cultivation of the mind: each stage of the practice gives emphasis to one or the other aspect, but neither should be cultivated on its own.

 

Zhang Boduan's works show that, in his view, the first stage of the alchemical practice ("laying the foundations") consists of the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming. The second stage ("refining Essence to transmute it into Breath") emphasizes the work on Ming. In the third stage ("refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit"), the work on Xing has priority on the work on Ming. Finally, in the fourth stage ("refining Spirit to return to Emptiness") one works only on Xing. Whether the cultivation of Xing or of Ming has priority depends, in other words, on the progress of one's practice.

 

 

... at the stage of "laying the foundations" there are two tasks: the first is preserving the state of Essence and Breath; the second is replenishing their shortage. When Essence is abundant, when Breath is full, and when Spirit is flourishing, this stage of the practice is concluded.

 

(text earlier emphasizes that Awakening to Reality begins at the stage after "laying the foundations" and thus begins with emphasizing Ming)

 

According to the alchemical methods of Zhang Boduan, "refining Ming" comes first, and "refining Xing" comes later. At the initial stage of "laying the foundations," however, Xing and Ming are cultivated together: since the practice at this stage consists in replenishing one's Ming and in cultivating the ultimate foundation, both Xing and Ming should be attended to simultaneously. Therefore the initial stage involves collecting the mind (shouxin), guarding Unity (shouyi), ceasing thoughts (zhinian), and entering the state of quiescence (rujing). These four expressions show that, at this stage, one should perform practices to eliminate the impure thoughts (zanian). The Secret Text of Green Florescence says in this concern:

 

When even one thought arisen due to delusion is sufficient to cause continuous mental activity, so that the Heart cannot be quiescent, this is a cause of hindrances. Rapidly dismiss that thought; in due course you will become skilled in doing this. Now, among deluded thoughts none is of greater import than joy or anger. If, when you experience anger, you are able to recollect, then you will not experience anger. If, when you experience joy, you know how to retrain it, then you will not experience joy. If you do this every time, eventually you will attain quiescence.

 

This passage refers to ending the flow of thoughts. Therefore collecting the mind is the first requirement to enter the state of quiescence and to control the inner Heart, keeping it silent and unmoving. Although impure thoughts may arise, they are at once restrained. This is the first practice.

 

"Embracing Unity" means concentrating the mind on one point in order to remove the impure thoughts. Here the word "unity" is meant in a broad sense, i.e., collecting the Heart and the Spirit in one point. Guarding the Cinnabar Field and guarding the "ancestral opening" (zuqiao) can attain the goal of collecting he mind and ceasing thoughts.

 

 

The text goes on to describe two more methods of leading the heart to quiescence; these are Xing practices related to "laying the foundation" in conjunction with cultivation of Ming.

 

And, of course...

 

 

The Yijing (Book of Changes) says:

 

Inquire into the principles and achieve your Xing, and thereby accomplish your Ming.

 

An ancient immortal said:

 

If you cultivate Xing and do not cultivate Ming,

for ten thousand kalpas your Yin Numen [ling 靈] will hardly enter sainthood.

If you cultivate Ming and do not cultivate Xing,

it is like having a property without an owner.

 

Both passages refer to the "joint cultivation of Xing and Ming." However, Xing has its own principles, and Ming too has its own principles. Unless you inquire into their principles and practice them, you cannot know them.

 

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao (tl. Pregadio)

Edited January 24, 2015 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

A possible and very rough parallel for Ming, Xing, and Ling, is Wood, Oxygen, and Fire. But if one is not careful, the fire will burn up its fuel and die. So the goal is to cultivate the substances so that the fire is more of a stable plasma that does not burn up and can be preserved - a life imbued liquid gold, if you will.

 

And there are multiple levels where this principle is applied, as one uses the intention/will to refine, extract, and replenish what is true from what is false and Bite Through (hexagram 21) to a new layer of operation.

 

Take this with many grains of salt.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Daeluin

[voidisyinyang]

"...People of Chan schools today declare that in cultivating the Tao, leakage is not a hindrance. Are these words true or false?"

In reply, he said, "This is the number one deviant way."

 

and

 

"Cultivation of stillness of only cuts off the body of lust and the heart-mind of lust. If you are unable to cut off the roots of lust, being unable to cut them off, you will be unable to obtain the End of Leakage."

 

And so without yang qi of the body to house the spirit then the person becomes a ghost.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.charleschace.com%2Fpdfs%2FHui_Ming_Jing-Nicholson.pdf&ei=dkLEVP7aJYOeggS0n4KgDQ&usg=AFQjCNEculn9tOm0oZvBLw01mjNyeeZCXg&sig2=G7yxpjGaG0SDcL2sb1SH_g&bvm=bv.84349003,d.eXY

 

pdf link

 

The Huiming Jing : a translation and discussion Author: Nicholson, James Michael

MA thesis Asian studies, 2000

 

As for the small universe practice it is understood by studying the Cavity of Spirit descending to turn the Cavity of Vitality into the lower tan tien as Cavity of Spirit-vitality and then as it is sublimated then the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality creates more Cavity of Spirit and the cycle of fire continues that way.

 

So those are the 4 main nodes of the 12 nodes of the two main energy channels.

 

As for my own practice - I didn't realize the strictness since I had not studied the Taoist Yoga book enough but I did get up to chapter six in the practice.

[Yae]

"...People of Chan schools today declare that in cultivating the Tao, leakage is not a hindrance. Are these words true or false?"

In reply, he said, "This is the number one deviant way."

 

I can only confirm that and add that the important thing to think about is so called "leakage stop" state.

Celibacy is practised in some schools for a short period of time to intensify the training.

Celibacy in general is not recommended, it harms.

 

So "leakage stop" is significant but not celibacy? Does that mean either that you can have sex without leaking, or that celibacy is disregarded but comes about spontaneously when you reach a point and "leakage stops"?

 

True celibacy avoids sexual thoughts as well apparently, so I don't think sex without some leakage is possible..

 

As many other Neidan school, we teach how the spirit-shen can enter the "emptiness that is not empty", but it has no relation to focus or non-focus, as well as to the idea of emptiness in qigong, when people feel nothing ("no body"), see nothing except white light or focus on something that produces no signals.

 

I think we're a bit too in the dark here without knowing the methods. If we could at least have a "censored" translation of this or a similar text done by someone who has actually practiced the methods so there won't be what are being called mistakes like translating something like "sitting practice" as "meditation".

 

And there^. It seems like we can't really approach any of TY's discussion of "emptiness" without knowing "how the spirit-shen can enter the 'emptiness that is not empty'".

 

And does TY ever reference the use of visualization? Or is it entirely literal? Because apparently visualization is a not a tool of Neidan.

[dawei]

Xing is spirit =>yang,

Ming is jing and chi => yin.

 

 

Xing: heart - fire => yang,

Ming: kidneys - water => yin.

 

There are so many relative relationships; Spirit can be both Yin or Yang... as can the heart.

 

The comparison is Xing and Ming

 

I did a Command+F search on that article and found in mentioned in a footnote:

 

"...Read in this light, the title of the Xingming guizhi refers to the

oneness of xing (yin) and ming (yang)."

 

yerp

 

(FP's paper on ming. this https://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature)

 

I think another support for this is:

 

Fulfilling Ming is “doing,” fulfilling Xing is “nondoing.”

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao

Awakening to Reality maintains that the cultivation of Ming (Life) should precede the cultivation of Xing (Nature), and that “doing” (youwei) should precede “non-doing” (wuwei).

 

MIng = doing = Yang

Xing = non-doing = Yin

[opendao]

So "leakage stop" is significant but not celibacy? Does that mean either that you can have sex without leaking, or that celibacy is disregarded but comes about spontaneously when you reach a point and "leakage stops"?

 

True celibacy avoids sexual thoughts as well apparently, so I don't think sex without some leakage is possible..

 

"Leakage" is not about sex. It's about stopping yuan jing wasting. And human beings spend yuan jing for EVERYTHING, not just sex. So... the celibacy gives very little, it can reduce the wasting, but it cannot "stop the leakage".

 

I think we're a bit too in the dark here without knowing the methods. If we could at least have a "censored" translation of this or a similar text done by someone who has actually practiced the methods so there won't be what are being called mistakes like translating something like "sitting practice" as "meditation".

 

Maybe one day such translations and explanations will appear. So far you can start learning Wenyan in your spare time. It will pay off.

 

And there^. It seems like we can't really approach any of TY's discussion of "emptiness" without knowing "how the spirit-shen can enter the 'emptiness that is not empty'".

 

And does TY ever reference the use of visualization? Or is it entirely literal? Because apparently visualization is a not a tool of Neidan.

 

I've explained a few times that TY is not a book to learn Daoist neidan. It's a mix of concepts Zhao Bichen learnt from various schools, including Buddhist ones. Then all that was somehow translated by Charles Luk. Can it be a reliable source of information?

 

In Neidan there are no visualizations by definition, because they mean a work with postheaven shen. It has no sense for Neidan.

[Yae]

There are so many relative relationships; Spirit can be both Yin or Yang... as can the heart.

 

The comparison is Xing and Ming

 

 

I think another support for this is:

 

Fulfilling Ming is “doing,” fulfilling Xing is “nondoing.”

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao

Awakening to Reality maintains that the cultivation of Ming (Life) should precede the cultivation of Xing (Nature), and that “doing” (youwei) should precede “non-doing” (wuwei).

 

MIng = doing = Yang

Xing = non-doing = Yin

 

Here are some quotes from that paper with some actual substance:

 

Li Daochun gives a more elaborate explanation:

 

What is above the form is devoid of form and substance; what is below the form has a foundation and an operation. What is devoid of form and substance pertains to xing and to Mercury; what has a foundation and an operation pertains to ming and to Lead.39 形而上者無形質，形而下者有體用。無形質者，係乎性汞也。有體用 者，係乎命鉛也。

 

The alchemical emblems mentioned by Li Daochun are traditional: Mercury is the standard image of the True Yin principle (zhenyin 真 陰), to which xing is related, and Lead is the standard image of the True Yang principle (zhenyang 真陽), to which ming is related. More important, according to this passage xing pertains to the formless domain, where no distinction occurs between foundation and operation. Ming, instead, emerges after the division of the One into the Two and pertains to the world of form. It is within this dual context that ming represents the operation of xing, which is its foundation.

 

The tie between the dyad of xing and ming and the triad of Essence, Breath, and Spirit is established by integrating Essence and Breath into a single principle, which is referred to as Breath and is associated with ming. Spirit, instead, stands on its own and is associated with xing.

[Yae]

"Leakage" is not about sex. It's about stopping yuan jing wasting. And human beings spend yuan jing for EVERYTHING, not just sex. So... the celibacy gives very little, it can reduce the wasting, but it cannot "stop the leakage".

 

Ohhhhh.

 

Maybe one day such translations and explanations will appear. So far you can start learning Wenyan in your spare time. It will pay off.

 

Consider it done, 师!

 

Are there any links you know of to un-translated copies of suggested reading material? I wouldn't take my findings seriously, but would like to try.

 

I've explained a few times that TY is not a book to learn Daoist neidan. It's a mix of concepts Zhao Bichen learnt from various schools, including Buddhist ones. Then all that was somehow translated by Charles Luk. Can it be a reliable source of information?

 

I personally need no more convincing. I'll go with a living true Neidan school.