Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[damdao]

Are there any links you know of to un-translated copies of suggested reading material? I wouldn't take my findings seriously, but would like to try.

 

Perhaps this could be useful:

http://www.14944.net/daoshu/dianji/wuliu/

[damdao]

"Leakage" is not about sex. It's about stopping yuan jing wasting. And human beings spend yuan jing for EVERYTHING, not just sex. So... the celibacy gives very little, it can reduce the wasting, but it cannot "stop the leakage".

Is it possible to explain what does it means "leakage of yuan jing"? I have read that study as any form of mental concentration is a form of leakage, is there any way of studying (for instance) that does not implies leakage at the same time?

If "stopping the leakage" is said of every human activity so the diagram of leakage in the Huimingjing is not be applied literally to certain body spots, is that what is meant?

[thelerner]

Red phoenix level 1 from Kunlun.

Cool. That I have an experiential reference point for. Otherwise these concepts are cryptic words translating poetic and coded references from a tiny subset of vastly different culture and time.

Edited January 25, 2015 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

Cool. That I have an experiential reference point for. Otherwise these concepts are cryptic words translating poetic and coded references from a tiny subset of vastly different culture and time.

 

Yeah trying to practice from Daoist neidan books is a monumental task.

[voidisyinyang]

So "leakage stop" is significant but not celibacy? Does that mean either that you can have sex without leaking, or that celibacy is disregarded but comes about spontaneously when you reach a point and "leakage stops"?

 

True celibacy avoids sexual thoughts as well apparently, so I don't think sex without some leakage is possible..

 

 

I think we're a bit too in the dark here without knowing the methods. If we could at least have a "censored" translation of this or a similar text done by someone who has actually practiced the methods so there won't be what are being called mistakes like translating something like "sitting practice" as "meditation".

 

And there^. It seems like we can't really approach any of TY's discussion of "emptiness" without knowing "how the spirit-shen can enter the 'emptiness that is not empty'".

 

And does TY ever reference the use of visualization? Or is it entirely literal? Because apparently visualization is a not a tool of Neidan.

 

So Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage.

 

If "opendao" does not practice celibacy - all I can do is laugh at this.

 

Certainly Taoist Yoga uses Buddhist terms and concepts and practice - is that wrong? Apparently according to "opendao." haha.

 

The other main forms to "leak" energy are - through the eyes and through the mouth.

 

This is why it is best to keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth at all times.

 

I remember seeing Chunyi doing this while he was talking to me even - in between talking.

 

As far as losing energy through the eyes - the best way to prevent it is the "turning the light around" practice.

 

I call that focusing the pineal gland - it happens at the Empowerment stage as Golden Flower describes it - to be able to focus the pineal gland at all times.

 

Taoist Yoga says the same thing - it is crucial to maintain that stillness at all times.

 

Again I only learned this specifically recently as the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality which Taoist Yoga details as not the same as the Cavity of Spirit.

 

So anyway it's very easy to argue from negatives

 

True Neidan - is "not" this and "not" that.

 

It's very easy to be a critic.

 

But notice how what to actually do is not forthcoming.

 

Looks like Bluemind you'll have to move to Vancouver and devote your life to a secret group that is not allowed to show any of its results. haha.

 

Meanwhile Chunyi Lin already has a proven legacy of healing results that many would consider miraculous.

 

Did he do "neidan" training? Of course he did. In fact Chunyi even said that Lao Tzu personally and physically appeared to him and touched his head when Chunyi was doing deep meditation in the mountains in China.

[Yae]

So Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage.

 

But living itself uses yuanshen.

 

If "opendao" does not practice celibacy - all I can do is laugh at this.

 

But if there's a method that replenishes it faster than it can be spent then it's not necessary.

 

Certainly Taoist Yoga uses Buddhist terms and concepts and practice - is that wrong? Apparently according to "opendao." haha.

 

Maybe that's just to say it's not Neidan.

 

The other main forms to "leak" energy are - through the eyes and through the mouth.

 

And life. And they're saying that wrong methods like too much sitting meditation in the beginning are potentially very detrimental, even in some cases regressing someone to the ghost immortal state.

 

It seems like the common spiritual belief today is that the soul is this impervious immortal thing, but the Neidan teachings and even what's suggested by Chunyi Lin healing ghosts seems to suggest that souls really can get lost and damaged. I mean Chunyi heals these ghosts right? This Neidan seems to say he may be creating ghostly immortals by teaching things like long sitting meditation, that make the body and/or soul too yin.

 

TY also aims to create a 100% yang spirit. Would you then argue that the meditations apparently taught at the beginning would not be able to make the body too yin? I think opendao has said that a small amount of meditation (15 minutes a day or maybe 30 max) may be used in some cases as part of preperatory practice for quieting the heart. But I don't think TY has any sort of time restrictions.

 

This is why it is best to keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth at all times.

 

I remember seeing Chunyi doing this while he was talking to me even - in between talking.

 

As far as losing energy through the eyes - the best way to prevent it is the "turning the light around" practice.

 

The yuanshen cultivation method would make this unnecessary too from what they're saying.

 

I call that focusing the pineal gland - it happens at the Empowerment stage as Golden Flower describes it - to be able to focus the pineal gland at all times.

 

They even say that focus and visualization drains the yuanshen.

 

Taoist Yoga says the same thing - it is crucial to maintain that stillness at all times.

 

I think in this Neidan (YXP, WLP,) they don't really work with the mind directly because the practices guide the mind to serenity. And using the mind is postheaven.

 

Again I only learned this specifically recently as the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality which Taoist Yoga details as not the same as the Cavity of Spirit.

 

So anyway it's very easy to argue from negatives

 

True Neidan - is "not" this and "not" that.

 

It's very easy to be a critic.

 

But notice how what to actually do is not forthcoming.

 

Yeah they're not allowed to be forthcoming about what to actually do.

 

Looks like Bluemind you'll have to move to Vancouver and devote your life to a secret group that is not allowed to show any of its results. haha.

 

I'll just join the pack of naysayers. But maybe correct naysayers. But the truth will show in my saintly complexion and black hair lasting well into old age. Hey that sounds pretty good...

 

But luckily it's only a secret not-in-person, if it makes sense to you let's go to Vancouver! I really want to get access to information about who and how many people have gotten to what stages in the practice. So curious. But I'll probably just take a sort of training that lasts a few days, and fly in as necessary (that's what opendao is planning to do for those of us from out of the area). I'm gonna go balance my chi and stress on an eden-style fruit farm in Hawaii while I cultivate. And be an uber driver... Lol. Woohoo!

 

Meanwhile Chunyi Lin already has a proven legacy of healing results that many would consider miraculous.

 

Nobody here is denying that Chunyi can heal people.

 

Yuanming Zhang is 51 and I just noticed his hair is still jet black. Not that I'm doing anything about it, just saying. Oh and he heals people pretty often I think.

 

Did he do "neidan" training? Of course he did. In fact Chunyi even said that Lao Tzu personally and physically appeared to him and touched his head when Chunyi was doing deep meditation in the mountains in China.

 

Well that would indeed probably have to be a yang spirit version of Lao Tzu. Just sayin.

[voidisyinyang]

Yuanming Zhang does 2 month nonstop cave meditation. When Chunyi was in China he went to visit him but Zhang was unavailable - in cave meditation.

 

As for your comments about too much stting and not using the mind, etc. - as I've said - at first Chunyi says three times more standing active exercise - to build up the lower tan tien - compared to 1 ratio of sitting meditation.

 

Visualization is considered tantra - Emptiness is achieved through pointed concentration, not necessarily visualization, but through logical inference. The difference is right brain dominant for visualization while left brain dominant for concentration.

 

Those two practices are not mutually exclusive.

 

The whole point of Taoist Yoga is that if you don't practice celibacy then you don't achieve the yang qi energy which surrounds the shen and gives the shen its force. That is what prevents creating or becoming a ghost.

 

Obviously becoming a ghost is a big concern - and I would say the main concern - because this is what happened to me.

 

So the thing about standing active exercise is with the knees bent you activate the kidney energy but as Taoist Yoga emphasizes the key is the deep fast breathing to drive up the jing energy so it combines with the yang spirit energy.

 

So although Taoist Yoga doesn't state standing active exercise they emphasize the real secret of it - the deep strong fast breathing - the "quick fire."

 

The big problem, as Taoist Yoga points out, is that celibacy can not be maintained as the energy develops to fill the lower tan tien - precisely because people are relying too much just on mind meditation and so the only answer to that is the deep fast strong reverse breathing.

 

So I have since been using the horse stance with thighs parallel to the ground - this is a very fast way to activate deep strong fast reverse breathing.

 

So the 2 month nonstop cave meditation is called "converting jing to chi" and of course strict celibacy has to be maintained in all ways - that is what the Emptiness focus does along with sitting in full lotus.

 

So that is also what Chunyi focuses on along with the small universe.

 

I have given the quotes that say celibacy must be maintained - to fully open the third eye there has to be celibacy and this is the most difficult. As your energy builds up then people around you will be wanting it more.

 

So anyway obviously there is a cost to doing healing but at the same time if someone is saying celibacy is too dangerous at advanced level and therefore not necessary - that is completely the opposite of what Taoist YOga says.

 

Celibacy is indeed dangerous but that is what gives the power of the practice and the essence of what prevents the ghost state from happening.

 

The question is what doesn't "drain the yuanshen" - to say it is only the Emptiness that doesn't drain it - is very easy to say but obviously you are going on someone trying to sell their school on the internet with no claims other than what their practice is not.

 

As I quoted not maintaining celibacy is the most common error in the practice and this school has just said they follow that error. Taoist Yoga is very strict about this as part of the "dual cultivation" method.

 

So have the other "serious" self-proclaimed alchemy trainers posting on this forum saying that the real reason they disagree with Taoist Yoga is because it insists on celibacy.

 

Again I find that hilarious because it's the typical Westernization projection on to the practice.

 

People love to hear what is easy for them but that is precisely why there are so few qigong masters.

 

As for real alchemy trainers working on their golden immortal body - they are in purified areas in hiding - they are not aggressively phishing for students on websites. haha. Chunyi said for advanced practice there can be no thoughts about sex.

 

I post online to learn from other people but when the sole modus operandi of a group is to just diss everyone else - to me that is the opposite of the real teachings.

 

These abilities are transcultural so they can be obtained by Buddhists and so it doesn't make sense to diss Taoist Yoga since it uses Buddhist sources - the syncretism of Taoism and Buddhism in China goes back a long ways.

 

But also of course these abilities were achieved all over the world in all cultures.

 

It's just that Taoism presents the clearest information on the training and again Taoist Yoga is the clearest information that I have found.

 

You're saying that I need to fly to Vancouver to get clearer information that is secret.

 

No thanks - this is a forum precisely because it is for people who want to share information.

 

They have already shared information that I disagree with.

 

I know someone who traveled the world and discovered qigong masters that are famous - people who have the same abilities as John Chang for example. This person returned and looked me up - I even let him stay at my house for a couple nights or so - and he said that even though he saw someone light things on fire with their hands that master did not have the same type of loving spiritual energy as Chunyi who does so much healing.

 

So I know that people like Wang Liping and Zhang Yuanming do healing on their students but it's not their full time career as with Chunyi who has people calling him up all day long to get healings.

 

Of course that doesn't allow him to store up his energy as much.

 

He said that once he had to let his advanced students teach level 3 since he had overused his energy.

 

Another time he said he was healing people even though he had just picked up a cold but he just didn't have time to heal himself since he had appointments. So then when he was done healing other people then he got rid of his cold. haha.

 

So I consider it to be heroic to make such sacrifices - but like I said - I know Chunyi said the best time of his life was when he was doing the deep 2 month nonstop full lotus cave meditation.

 

Chunyi said if you want to see if someone is a real master just see how long they can sit in full lotus nonstop in ease.

 

Wang Liping for his first training had to sit in full lotus 4 hours nonstop with no movement at all - and he had to be tied down to do this.

 

So I can't agree that full lotus is just a passive yin practice.

 

It has to be combined with Emptiness focus obviously because as I have said - I sent out energy for almost a decade doing free healing while I sat in full lotus in public for hours nonstop every day.

 

So there are different types of full lotus - to sit in full lotus while storing up your energy and not sending it out - this is quite difficult. To sit like that in ease with no moving requires that the yang qi be activated.

 

The alchemy books are clear on this - the book I just quoted - and others say - only when the lower tan tien is filled up with yin qi so that the yang qi is activated - only then will the energy blockages of the body be cleared out and at that point you can sit in full lotus for as long as you want in ease.

 

The problem is if people do sitting meditation but not in full lotus - then it's easy for it to be too yin to be sure.

 

Chunyi does tai chi every morning as his first practice for half hour.

 

But all the qigong masters that I know about - Zhang, Yuanming and Wang, Liping and Effie P. Chow and Yan Xin and Chunyi and Jim Nance - they all sit for at least 2 hours full lotus meditation nonstop twice a day or a 4 hour nonstop full lotus meditation every night.

 

Emptiness can only be achieved once the lower tan tien is filled up with energy but most people never even reach that stage - and if you do - which is chapter six of Taoist Yoga - it's very difficult to stabilize the yang qi to keep filling it up - to fully open the third eye - because when you have yang qi then you have strong healing abilities and other people will desperately want that energy.

 

So if you go to Vancouver then you can post back to us whether the teachers there can sit in full lotus nonstop as long as they want in ease.

 

Will they transmit energy to you like Chunyi does to help open your third eye? That is the shen energy transmission.

 

People who studied with Mantak Chia said he can not do that. It is very rare - called the Shakti healing in India.

 

I know SFQ doesn't use the terms shen energy transmission - they just call it unconditional love healing. haha.

 

For me - even if I am unable to build up my lower tan tien again - at least I activated my third eye enough where I am able to send out yin chi energy to heal people.

 

I know this type of healing is based on the small universe running the wrong way - and that's why it is damaging to my own energy as it causes loss of PreNatal Vitality.

 

But if you can go into the Emptiness because the third eye is fully open then you can recharge your PreNatal Vitality.

 

So the thing about yuanshen being used up - yes - but it can be recharged also.

 

You're saying that if the energy is strong enough then it can over-ride the loss from non-celibacy. Again this is only if the third eye is fully open but to get to that level of a fully open third eye requires a strict celibacy that few can obtain.

 

As Master Nan, Huai-chin says most people get "heroic over-exuberance" and so "fall back into worldliness" before they have fully opened the third eye.

 

But even still if you do fully open the third eye - if you are doing the alchemy training for immortality then celibacy has to be continued.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[opendao]

Is it possible to explain what does it means "leakage of yuan jing"? I have read that study as any form of mental concentration is a form of leakage, is there any way of studying (for instance) that does not implies leakage at the same time?

 

any activity needs an energy, so without alchemy it's possible only to reduce the wasting. But studying is a process which depends heavily on yuan qi (and jing), so it's hard even to reduce... That's why it's better to study while being young :-)

 

If "stopping the leakage" is said of every human activity so the diagram of leakage in the Huimingjing is not be applied literally to certain body spots, is that what is meant?

 

That diagram is not about physical process at all, so it cannot be applied literally.

[blue eyed snake]

-

Edited January 29, 2015 by blue eyed snake

[Yae]

Hey, on the daode.ru site I found some discussion about abstinence. The site is in Russian so this has been automatically translated:

 

 

Dmitry, as I understand it, in the northern schools "dual cultivation" is not practiced. Do guidelines for abstinence?

Yes, there is. From 100 days.

Sincerely, DA

 

 

Posted by lmn

Dmitry, but as consistent abstinence in school Wang Chongyang Ma Danyang, with its focus on the smooth evolution, on what would maintain social ties. Family, for example?

It is not permanent, is made in the practice of certain periods.
In this regard, the southern school more interesting - there is no abstinence at all, but there is more rigid discipline and strict adherence to tradition teacher-student.

 

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://forum.daode.ru/f196/otkrytaya-politika-i-otkrytaya-shkola-alhimii-van-chunyana-ma-danyana-1712/index4.html&usg=ALkJrhgjHdUzrRhbkEaMZmtVTBfxrIAPWQ

[damdao]

That diagram is not about physical process at all, so it cannot be applied literally.

This is a Copernican turn around in the hermeneutics of this text.

It makes sense.

And it is a good instance of the necessity of unlearn misconceptions in order to learn properly.

Good food for thought.

[opendao]

Hey, on the daode.ru site I found some discussion about abstinence. The site is in Russian so this has been automatically translated:

 

 

 

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://forum.daode.ru/f196/otkrytaya-politika-i-otkrytaya-shkola-alhimii-van-chunyana-ma-danyana-1712/index4.html&usg=ALkJrhgjHdUzrRhbkEaMZmtVTBfxrIAPWQ

 

yes, but it happens not in the beginning, and it comes naturally.

 

What Innersoundqigong claims is based only on his own wrong interpretation of a wrong book. Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

[Daeluin]

My intuition, based on what I've learned, tells me that jing retention is most useful in the beginning as one sublimates and reclaims ming. It also may be helpful as a guide to get deeper/purer by avoiding leakage in the night. But after certain stages I gather an emission here and there will not threaten to topple one's foundation or upset one's progress in the same way, but may even be helpful in navigating one's own unique path. It's all about balance at the appropriate stages, not hard fast rules. Different principles apply at different stages of evolution. Finding tao requires both firmness and flexibility.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Daeluin

[opendao]

This is a Copernican turn around in the hermeneutics of this text.

It makes sense.

And it is a good instance of the necessity of unlearn misconceptions in order to learn properly.

Good food for thought.

 

right. People are trapped by the idea of physical, so they try to interpreter Neidan the same way. Pineal glands, vagus nerve, hormones... All of them are very external to what Neidan deals with.

[SecretGrotto]

Hey Innersoundqigong, excellent post to which I fully agree.

 

When I see people saying that meditation and celibacy are not critical components of cultivation I am dumbfounded, like they are saying "water is not wet."

 

Almost all of the accounts I've read in all traditions of masters enlightening and becoming essentially superhuman stress meditation and celibacy. All masters who's lives are written up have stressed meditation and celibacy. All the real gurus and yogis whose lives I have studied have emphasized meditation and celibacy.

 

Do I follow their example and achieve real cultivation, or do I doubt their methods because of some purported secret would have me believe the methods are ineffectual?

 

Yogananda has said that the acid test of a real master is the display of the breathless state. Swami Rama displayed his ability to voluntarily stop his heart, measured beyond doubt by doctors and scientists in a USA hospital.

 

My point is, if you cannot even reach such a 'middle' result as breathlessness then what does it matter if you're not using secret methods when the masters who have displayed such feats already gave effective methods.

 

First reach the state of breathlessness then start to worry about secret Neidan teachings that nobody has ever written about or confirmed.

 

Celibacy is much avoided and downplayed even on these forums, and it's not hard to understand why. Like Innersoundqigong says, if it was easy to be celibate there would be many more masters.

 

I firmly believe in the effectivity of meditation and celibacy over some odd secret methods, until I can see you demonstrate the breathless state and a true sincerity that demands that known methods are ineffective.

 

You do not need to perform odd practices, otherwise how could self-cultivation be easy?

 

Just still the heart in quiescence and let Divine guidance lead you on the Great Way.

[opendao]

First reach the state of breathlessness then start to worry about secret Neidan teachings that nobody has ever written about or confirmed.

 

what if your "breathlessness" has no importance in Neidan? What if people you like have no any achievements in Neidan? What if you're trying to make conclusions with no understanding what initial results are in Neidan?

 

Celibacy is much avoided and downplayed even on these forums, and it's not hard to understand why. Like Innersoundqigong says, if it was easy to be celibate there would be many more masters.

 

There are a lot of people who celibate and do meditations of a different kind. But masters?

 

Can you name at least ONE contemporary Neidan master you've ever seen?

 

In this thread we discuss Zhao Bichen: is he a Neidan master? Hint: has he achieved immortality and become Xian? No.

Wang Liping? No.

And the list of "big names" can be very long. But no, they are not Xian...

 

So maybe alchemy teachers are not public persons and you know nothing about them?

 

I firmly believe in the effectivity of meditation and celibacy over some odd secret methods, until I can see you demonstrate the breathless state and a true sincerity that demands that known methods are ineffective.

 

You do not need to perform odd practices, otherwise how could self-cultivation be easy?

 

Just still the heart in quiescence and let Divine guidance lead you on the Great Way.

 

Amen, nobody will participate in your "pissing contest" and prove you anything. But your logic is poor and the lack of facts is evident...

[Ish]

There are a lot of people who celibate and do meditations of a different kind. But masters?

 

Can you name at least ONE contemporary Neidan master you've ever seen?

 

In this thread we discuss Zhao Bichen: is he a Neidan master? Hint: has he achieved immortality and become Xian? No.

Wang Liping? No.

And the list of "big names" can be very long. But no, they are not Xian...

 

Not saying that you're wrong - but how have you decided on those two's level of attainment?

[SecretGrotto]

The majority of users are here to learn something new and to share knowledge, and not to boast about how everyone is wrong without giving useful advice.

 

It is a strange world where all of the sudden agreed upon concepts and terms get redefined at will to support notions of superiority, and where the clear advice of texts gets ignored in favor of strange exclusive interpretations.

 

Indeed, it is strange when everything we know about Virtue gets kicked out of the door and godlike masters suddenly withhold their bountiful blessings and advice from humanity so as not to violate centuries old human texts.

 

What has this world come to that all of the sudden all the exemplary masters, who have actively displayed the Divine nature of man for the upliftment of humanity, are the propagators of half-truths?

[Yae]

The majority of users are here to learn something new and to share knowledge, and not to boast about how everyone is wrong without giving useful advice.

 

It is a strange world where all of the sudden agreed upon concepts and terms get redefined at will to support notions of superiority, and where the clear advice of texts gets ignored in favor of strange exclusive interpretations.

 

Indeed, it is strange when everything we know about Virtue gets kicked out of the door and godlike masters suddenly withhold their bountiful blessings and advice from humanity so as not to violate centuries old human texts.

 

What has this world come to that all of the sudden all the exemplary masters, who have actively displayed the Divine nature of man for the upliftment of humanity, are the propagators of half-truths?

 

Dude the term "ancient Chinese secret" didn't come from nowhere. Weell ok I have read that some masters were greedy with their knowlegde which would be a negative connotation for that saying so maybe it's not helpful here. I disgress: A lot of reasoning has been given for why the Neidan methods are secretive. From the Neidan vs Qigong thread:

 

opendao

Andrei, on 24 Dec 2014 - 19:46, said:

The secrecy is not because they are mean, it's just because someone should assume a lot of responibility, and no one does that.

 

right. And such responsibility deals also with the fact that the ming practices give a big excess of energy. Teacher is responsible if the student goes wild and becomes a monster. That's why it takes a while to test a student. It takes a lot of time to clear the heart by various exercises. It's a long and tedious process for both parts. The methods cannot be shared widely because of that. It's like to give a shotgun to a child.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Bluemind

[opendao]

The majority of users are here to learn something new and to share knowledge, and not to boast about how everyone is wrong without giving useful advice.

 

I've already gave a bunch of advices: what to search, why, how and where. Who can read, they can do it. Others will complain about an absence of "spiritual mobility" (awesome term man by the way) and repeat the "all ways go same directions" mantra to convince themselves.

 

It is a strange world where all of the sudden agreed upon concepts and terms get redefined at will to support notions of superiority, and where the clear advice of texts gets ignored in favor of strange exclusive interpretations.

 

Find in TY book something about "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage" first, then we can discuss who really has "strange exclusive interpretations" and who just repeat basic things known in the tradition.

 

Indeed, it is strange when everything we know about Virtue gets kicked out of the door and godlike masters suddenly withhold their bountiful blessings and advice from humanity so as not to violate centuries old human texts.

 

so pls follow your logic and don't "violate centuries old human texts"!

[opendao]

Not saying that you're wrong - but how have you decided on those two's level of attainment?

 

when you're inside the tradition, you know the exact signs of progress. External, objective signs. No signs, no achievements.

If a person looks old then how we can even think that this person has achieved a certain high level in Neidan? It has no sense.

There are some exceptions and a lot of details, but in general this rule can be applied to many self-proclaimed "masters of Dan Dao".

[damdao]

Almost all of the accounts I've read in all traditions of masters enlightening and becoming essentially superhuman stress meditation and celibacy. All masters who's lives are written up have stressed meditation and celibacy. All the real gurus and yogis whose lives I have studied have emphasized meditation and celibacy.

 

 

 

Yogananda has said that the acid test of a real master is the display of the breathless state. Swami Rama displayed his ability to voluntarily stop his heart, measured beyond doubt by doctors and scientists in a USA hospital.

 

If celibacy is so important, why do you put in your avatar a married master?

It seems that you have been very selective in your reading about life of masters. The rose of Baghdad, Abd 'ul Qadir al Jaylani who is one of the most respected shaykh in sufism had four wives and fifty-some children, following the prophetic sunna or example, and the seal of the saints, 'Ibn al 'Arabi had a couple of wives and some children. In sufism married saints (men and women) are the rule, the exception are the celibates.

The patriarch of Zhao's Bichen lineage is his grand grand son, and of course he had a son.

In yoga many reputed teachers (aka masters, etc.) say that celibacy is not mandatory (see Satyananda and his kriyayoga), and there is no agreement about the actual meaning of brahmacarya, so no need to translate as celibacy.

Besides, there is no need to ignore the sociological dimension of celibacy, i.e. as a mean of control over people and a means to avoid social impositions, but not always a spiritual virtue.

At last but not least, Yogananda and Rama had very serious accusations of sexual misconduct with their female students, does not this ring a bell?

[voidisyinyang]

Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

 

In the below quotes from Taoist Yoga it is my emphasis on the term "drain away" or "draining away."

 

"If the tip of the tongue is not pressed against the heavenly pool vitality will not flow into the lower tan t'ien cavity (under the navel) and the prenatal breath will drain away." p. 7

 

"The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality. Spirit is (essential) nature and vitality is (eternal) life which is essential generative force....The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring." p. 7

 

"If the teacher denies this and says his method is to turn back the flow of generative force to fortify his body so that it will be restored to its original condition before puberty and cause the penis to cease standing during sleep and to retract, his is the authentic method." p. 8

 

 

O.K. so Bluemind - you just posted that your secret Neidan school that you have now discovered - in Russian - teaches that 100 days of celibacy is needed for their secret super Neidan training.

 

Again I find this hilarious.

 

Bluemind - you want your hair to stay black into old age right?

 

According to Taoist Yoga it is very specific.

 

You need 400 days - not 100 - but 400 days of celibacy to turn your hair black.

 

100 days of celibacy is the traditional time it takes to access the Tai Chi as real Emptiness - to have an enlightenment experience.

 

O.K. but again keep in mind that we are not just taking about leaking fluid but also leaking energy out of the eyes and mouth and even out of the body in general from the aura.

 

So it is not enough to be not leaking fluids but that is the main way to lose the energy.

 

So if you go another 500 days of celibacy - then you fully open the third eye which then "lays the foundation."

 

Now I consider that achieving Xing but apparently that is not what your super secret Neidan school thinks. haha.

 

Yes I would say Wang Liping has achieved Xing as has Yan Xin and Zhang Yuanming and Chunyi Lin and JIm Nance, etc.

 

In other words - they all have their third eyes fully open.

 

You can have an enlightenment experience - as I did - but to stabilize that energy you have to continue in your celibacy and that is what Chapter six is focused on in Taoist Yoga. In other words you have to use the spirit fire to further deepen the yang qi energy - to turn it into more prenatal or yuan qi energy via Emptiness meditation so it is stored into a deeper part of the lower tan tien. This prevents the loss of the alchemical agent through leakage.

 

This is what is meant by the End of Leakage.

 

Now as I said - most people never even fill up the lower tan tien in the first place to even have an enlightenment experience - but to get from a Number 4 person (permanent third eye activation) to a Number 5 person (fully opened third eye) is very very difficult as Gurdjieff emphasized.

 

In other words - that final stage of laying the foundation from Chapter 6 to Chapter 8 of Taoist Yoga is very difficult.

 

Why? Because when you do develop "Yang qi" - you already have spiritual powers and people will want this energy - desperately - since it is love energy.

 

At that stage then the focus really does have to be on the Emptiness.

 

And this is where people - like Master Nan, Huai-chin - greatly criticize the tantra visualization practice of Taoist Yoga because - instead of relying on the small universe visualizations - instead the practice, they argue, should be just to focus on the Emptiness as your guide.

 

For example when you activate the yang qi then the top of the head pulsates with electromagnetic energy - the bones soften and widen out like a babies - and you have real astral travel.

 

But the question arises - where do I travel and why? I mean is that the real meaning of the universe? To just travel and explore, etc.?

 

No the real question is "who" is doing this traveling? And Master Nan, Huai-chin says no - real astral is not like the image in Taoist Yoga with a spirit going out of the top of the head. well that is true and not true - again I saw Chunyi repeatedly creating personalized yin shen spirits out of the top of his head.

 

But what Taoist Yoga says is that actually when you start to have astral travel - if you experience dizziness - the reason is there is not enough "yang qi" that is surrounding and enveloping your spirit shen energy. And so you must keep focusing on the lower tan tien to store up more yang qi energy.

 

"In case of nocturnal emission you should practice the method taught in Chapter 10 to stop it entirely." p. 23

 

And so when doing this you are actually turning the yang qi into yuan qi or prenatal vitality as a function of the Emptiness itself.

 

 

"By laying the foundation of positive spirit is meant stopping the positive generative force from draining away, and thus producing the golden elixir." p. 29

 

and'

 

 

"...spirit returns to nothingness because of immutable thought." p. 31

to be continued.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[SecretGrotto]

If celibacy is so important, why do you put in your avatar a married master?

At last but not least, Yogananda and Rama had very serious accusations of sexual misconduct with their female students, does not this ring a bell?

 

Lahiri Mahasaya most probably "laid with his wife" only for the purpose of recreation, as seems to be the custom with spiritually inclined Indians. Yogananda stated this explicitly of his father and mother, that they only did it for procreation.

 

It is, after all, the overwhelming impression that after procreating these masters were wholly celibate and to simply point to the fact that they had children leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Of course, there is Chaste, and there is Celibate, where Chaste allows for procreation. In any case, when we refer to Celibate we ultimately refer to the active avoidance of any Jing loss through sexual activity, but India has a familial culture so procreation cannot be avoided easily.

 

The only reports I've ever seen of Yogananda is that two female reporters intended to seduce him in an interview but he sent them on their way.

[dawei]

According to Taoist Yoga it is very specific.

 

You need 400 days - not 100 - but 400 days of celibacy to turn your hair black.

 

100 days of celibacy is the traditional time it takes to access the Tai Chi as real Emptiness - to have an enlightenment experience.

 

O.K. but again keep in mind that we are not just taking about leaking fluid but also leaking energy out of the eyes and mouth and even out of the body in general from the aura.

 

So it is not enough to be not leaking fluids but that is the main way to lose the energy.

 

So if you go another 500 days of celibacy - then you fully open the third eye which then "lays the foundation."

 

Where is my prize I went celibate for 5,475 days... till age 15...