Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[voidisyinyang]

"It is the positive fire as explained in Chapter 6. Chapter 4 has already dealt with gathering the microcosmic outer alchemical agent in order to return it to the stove (in the lower abdomen); since this agent is still not yet sublimated by fire, it can drain away like tea poured into a cup which overflows and spreads outside." p. 53

 

So that is exactly what someone was saying is not a problem in fulling achieving Xing - the spilling over or overflowing of extra jing energy.

 

On the contrary, chapter six is precisely to stop that from happening - to secure the End of Leakage.

 

 

"You have spoken of vitality which drains away continuously; how does one stop its drain?" Answer: The only method is to shut the genital gate in order to ensure long life free from death." p. 58

 

 

and

 

"Therefore the generative fluid, when full, will be discharged, sooner or later, as proved by nocturnal emission....and in spite of your efforts you will not be able to stop the discharge of generative fluid. Is this not most regrettable?" p. 65

 

and

 

 

"But far more of it [vitality] drains through the genital gate than through the heavenly pool and if this is not checked it can even kill caste youths." p. 82

 

and

 

 

"Spirit can hold vitality only temporarily but lacks the driving power of breathing, and without breathing, vitality....will finally drain away by the genital gate; this is caused by lack of pressure from in and out breathing." p. 87

 

Finally Chapter 9 - after the foundation has be laid:

 

"When the practiser reaches this stage, he should guard against any drain of the positive principle at night, for if he is careless the original generative force will disperse and thereby nullify all that has been achieved." p. 94

 

 

And so Taoist Yoga says - the first eight chapters deal with "minor serenity" but the 9th deals with major serenity.

 

So yes - you can have leakage but you're not going to obtain "major serenity" with that leakage. To get major serenity you gotta build up the energy again - start over.

 

 

"This cultivation of (essential) nature and (eternal) life requires constant attention and the slightest carelessness can obscure the inner light and cause the drain of the elixir with the result that all previous efforts will be sterile." p. 97

 

 

So the focus of chapter 10 is completely on how to ensure stopping leakage or drainage.

[damdao]

Lahiri Mahasaya most probably "laid with his wife" only for the purpose of recreation, as seems to be the custom with spiritually inclined Indians. Yogananda stated this explicitly of his father and mother, that they only did it for procreation.

 

To my disgust, things like the underlined give credit to Freud's theory of lapsuses.

And Lahiri Mahasaya recommended a frequency of intercourse a little more than enough for procreation, he stated that is ok a couple of times a month.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

In the below quotes from Taoist Yoga it is my emphasis on the term "drain away" or "draining away."

 

"If the tip of the tongue is not pressed against the heavenly pool vitality will not flow into the lower tan t'ien cavity (under the navel) and the prenatal breath will drain away." p. 7

 

"The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality. Spirit is (essential) nature and vitality is (eternal) life which is essential generative force....The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring." p. 7

 

"If the teacher denies this and says his method is to turn back the flow of generative force to fortify his body so that it will be restored to its original condition before puberty and cause the penis to cease standing during sleep and to retract, his is the authentic method." p. 8

 

Dude, you're wrong. Totally wrong. It's not about celibacy at all.

 

Yuan Qi ("prenatal breath" in the text) is the energy, people live when they have it, people die when it's wasted in full.

Yuan Jing ("essential generative force" in the text) is some other kind of energy, that can be generated only at puberty age.

Yuan Jing is Pre Heaven (same as Yuan Qi). For you it should mean at least that it's not physical.

Semen fluid is Post Heaven Jing, it is created from Yuan Jing and this process has no relation to sex or sexual desires. For women it's different but also happens regularly.

 

People spend Yuan Qi all the time. The process of creating Yuan Jing from Yuan Qi happens EVEN if you celibate.

 

If it is not so, then virgin people can live forever. But they die as all others. Think about it, it's important.

Also think about women. I hope you know when they loose their yuan jing, and it happens even if they have no sex.

 

So in TY book it says clearly that people "let it drain away to create offspring" and that it's bad. I agree with that, and that's the usual subject in Neidan literature. But the book doesn't say that you can achieve anything by just having no sex!!!

 

TY suggests its own method (wrong) how to "stop the leakage", but this "drain" is not physical, it's on the energy level. That's why it speaks so much about proper time to do the practice. And speaks nothing about avoiding sexual life.

 

Nocturnal emissions has to be avoided, but again it doesn't mean that celibacy will help you in doing that. Nocturnal emissions are dangerous not only because jing is lost, but also for other reasons (not covered in TY book).

 

I think where you live it's called "EPIC FAIL"

 

And that's what many people told you: you got the wrong book in a totally wrong way.

Edited January 27, 2015 by opendao

[opendao]

To my disgust, things like the underlined give credit to Freud's theory of lapsuses.

And Lahiri Mahasaya recommended a frequency of intercourse a little more than enough for procreation, he stated that is ok a couple of times a month.

 

Good point. So behind all this nice words we can see just one thing: such masters had no method to restore yuan jing, so they tried to reduce the wasting to get at least something for their practice. But it wasn't enough to get to the next level.

[Andrei]

 

 

You need 400 days - not 100 - but 400 days of celibacy to turn your hair black.

 

.

 

According to TCM you need to drink He Shou Wu tea for one year to turn your hair back black (which I belive it is OK for Chinese that have dark hair, not for white people with blond hair which may turn darker due to the black pigment in the root.)

[Taoist Texts]

Indeed, it is strange when everything we know about Virtue gets kicked out of the door

 

yes, greed is always strange. The greedy for desires will not pay for Virtue, because Virtue is a negation of desires; but they will pay for a promise to stay young in order to satisfy the desires, so the greedy for money will sell them that promise. Its a meeting of greeds, which is educational to watch.

 

Q. What are quaifications to be a teacher of immortality?

A. (1) Have a webpage that says so (2) Be not dead yet.

[LaoZiDao]

Nocturnal emissions are dangerous not only because jing is lost, but also for other reasons (not covered in TY book).

 

Absolutely, and anyone able to tame the white tiger is not doing it with mantras and visualisations

 

Is there a chance you are you able to expand on the 'other reasons'? Maybe I can learn something here.

[damdao]

yes, greed is always strange. The greedy for desires will not pay for Virtue, because Virtue is a negation of desires; but they will pay for a promise to stay young in order to satisfy the desires, so the greedy for money will sell them that promise. Its a meeting of greeds, which is educational to watch.

 

Q. What are quaifications to be a teacher of immortality?

A. (1) Have a webpage that says so (2) Be not dead yet.

 

This is very interesting.

Who says that this behaviour is virtue and that one is not virtue? Acting under what interests and prejudices says that?

It makes me remember once that Robert Thurman said that in tantra you can experience a sexual pleasure more powerful that the one you experiences with another person and because of that a tantric practicioner doesn't experiences pain not having a partner. This is an interesting buddhist-like way of miss entirely the point about something life-related, in this case marriage and family. These two later has little to do to sexual pleasure, so developing that kind of explanation shows the solipsistic point of view so prevalent among spiritual seekers. And this leads to a negation of life, self-denial and so on.

In this case is the same, no body said that you don't have to do character reformations but these are done in another (an alternative) way.

What kind of desire could you enjoy if you are developing your yuan shen? We are thinking here that someone in the xian way will think and feel with shi shen plus youthful vigour, but this is wrong, all the structure changes, so don't worry, the idea is not to gain vigour in order to be 7/24 in the disco.

Besides, here the chariot is before the horse, neidan is not about stay young, is about spiritual deliverance, but in this path certain signs are developed, if this signs does not occur something is wrong.

Finally, as Taomeow pointed out in another thread, "virtue" "de" is related to power, and this is true either in chinese and in latin ('virtus' from which the English word is derived), so other connotations perhaps have its origin in Christian ethics but does not correspond neither with 'de' nor with 'virtue' (and of course, neidan has the very technical definition of superior virtue and inferior virtue that are different from a simple ethical definition).

[Taoist Texts]

This is very interesting.

Who says that this behaviour is virtue and that one is not virtue? Acting under what interests and prejudices says that?

People with virtue do not need to be told. People without virtue - do not care who says what.

 

Whoever discards human virtue to go with a neidan one - really really deserves what is in store for him.

[damdao]

People with virtue do not need to be told. People without virtue - do not care who says what.

 

Whoever discards human virtue to go with a neidan one - really really deserves what is in store for him.

Instead of argumentation...

...Jew-Christian tactics of fear and other-worldly punishment...

 

This is really interesting...

...to say the least.

[Taoist Texts]

Instead of argumentation...

...Jew-Christian tactics of fear and other-worldly punishment...

 

This is really interesting...

...to say the least.

what is to fear if they do nothing wrong? Its their decision and all consequences good or bad will be this-worldly and solely theirs, nobody else to blame.

[SecretGrotto]

The disciples of Lahiri Mahasaya wanted to advertise his name across India, but he forbade them because he wanted to stay hidden. A real master becomes known and famous regardless, because he is like a rose and the powerful scent wafts throughout the land drawing people to him naturally.

 

One Chinese saying goes like this: "During ten years of hard practice one is unknown; once he has achieved success, he is known by all."

 

Where are the true Neidan masters that are still alive and known by all as a consequence of their achievement? Or are they hiding in the mountains to cultivate still, perhaps even leading a Celibate lifestyle because of their isolation?

 

Yan Xin sets the Gold Standard for how virtue should be practiced on the level of humanity. He absolutely emphasises virtue as we commonly understand it, because virtue must first be practiced on this level before the lesser known virtue of heaven even becomes relevant.

 

The cultivation of virtue on the level of humanity is as important as the cultivation of xing and ming, because it 'makes heaven glad' and removes the obstacles one inevitably encounters in cultivation.

 

I get that Virtue becomes different the higher one advances in cultivation, but virtue on the level of humanity comes first and should be emphasized.

[Taoist Texts]

Who says that this behaviour is virtue and that one is not virtue? Acting under what interests and prejudices says that?

 

Umm ..you see, this is how it works:

 

How do children learn what is right and wrong?

 

 

• Children do what they see, more than what you say. It is important for you to provide a good model for your child to follow.
• Children pass through different stages of moral development beginning in early childhood and advancing through adulthood.
• Very young children do not really understand the concept of right and wrong. For them, what is "good" is what they like and what is "bad" is what they don't like. Therefore, it is important for adults to provide controls and limits for them. This is especially true for children who have no words to tell themselves, "No, don't pick the flowers."
• At about age 4 or 5, children begin to label or identify things that are "good" and "bad." They can talk about them, but the true understanding is still outside of their own feeling. Children of this age follow rules only because they are told to do so. That is why it is very important for adults to provide consistent and gentle guidance. As a child uses words to describe self-controlling behaviors, such as "No. No. Don't touch," they begin to internalize, or understand, what those words mean.
• By age 7 or 8, children's understanding of right and wrong seems to be based more on fear of being punished. For example, a child might feel that the reason people do not steal is that they will be caught by the police. Generally, children still have not developed true moral values. Again, it is important for adults to help children understand what is right and wrong, and why.
• By age 9, children are beginning to understand the Golden Rule: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. This is the beginning of a true understanding of right and wrong, of guilt and values.

http://www.kidsgrowth.com/resources/articledetail.cfm?id=1801

[Daeluin]

I don't see why someone would complete their transition into celestial immortality if their destiny requires teaching people who need to see a physical body.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

Funny how Neidan is all about balancing polarity, yet here we see the encouraging and entrenchment of polarity.

 

Surely this helps no one?

 

You're all just leaking.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"You need 400 days - not 100 - but 400 days of celibacy to turn your hair black."

-----

 

This will not turn gray hair back. And using dark pigmented herbs internally is not much different than drinking hair dye - and it will not really work to change the color of the hair very much at all.

 

But doing this is entirely possible. As is changing the eye color.

 

I discovered how to do this with hair about 15-20 yrs ago, and what I discovered works well. It worked so well that with my hair turned to black again I noticed that people do not hold a door open for me anymore. They don't say "sir" anymore. They don't take me on sight to be as serious as with gray in the hair. So I go back and attain some more gray and then everything is fine again with doors and "sir". So now I only do this black hair if I am doing something special where looking like a blackhair is better.

 

Doesn't take much time - no 100 or 400 days, and not making wife frown, nothing like that. And no "medicine" needed.

 

Things like this are not difficult, and using this as a benchmark of neidan progress is to me ridiculous.

 

And know that not my teachers really even knew how to do this, and they were very advanced - one making sparks like Chang guy in that video people saw, and much more, but they continually had to accept gray hair when even they didn't want it. Many even great teachers miss a large area of knowledge and are not able to keep real health or youth even when they want these things. Famous teachers today are no different. Still they get fat, get sick, have things happen they have no knowledge how to change, etc. But their systems and methods maybe great, and their practice very good otherwise.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[opendao]

Where are the true Neidan masters that are still alive and known by all as a consequence of their achievement? Or are they hiding in the mountains to cultivate still, perhaps even leading a Celibate lifestyle because of their isolation?

 

They are near you but to see it you need a real virtue, not some "golden standard" "as we commonly understand it".

 

For example, Taoist Texts see nothing but greed (even when the teaching is done for free) and constantly throwing shit to the tradition he doesn't know. Why is it so? Obviously because he has no "human virtue". It' a good example how humans twist their moral principles the way they like, just to hide their miserable souls behind the curtain, and achieve their very mundane goals. He speaks about "no desire", but obviously he has desires. It reminds us politicians and lawyers, whose work is to lie. It is so "human", but is it a Virtue? Golden Standard???

 

The real golden standard is inside. And in the beginning Neidan cleans the heart-xin so to achieve "humanity"-Ren. But even this is very far from modern values:

 

"Heaven and earth have no Ren-Humanity...Sage has no Ren." (DDJ, chapter 5)

 

This phrase is important, it shows clearly that humans cannot understand the Virtue basing on "common sense".

 

The only way to get Virtue is to practice. No Yuan Qi, no Virtue-De. No De, no Dao.

 

So we come back again to the Method. No method, no Virtue.

Edited January 27, 2015 by opendao

[Daeluin]

One can be an "immortal-in-body" and teach/transmit the golden pill to others. You work at your own pace towards immortality, but choose to stay in your physical body until you are ready to leave it. Some immortals leave body younger than others. And other immortals leave when the physical body is about ripe for death.

 

Sure, but the specific judgment was not of immortality, but celestial immortality. The definitions of celestial immortality I've read indicate one has completely dissolved one's physical body - not just left it behind.

 

Edit: it seems I was mistaken, the judgment was not of celestial immortality, just immortality. I ponder this more below.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Daeluin

[Brian]

Sounds unnecessarily icky.

[damdao]

Yan Xin sets the Gold Standard for how virtue should be practiced on the level of humanity. He absolutely emphasises virtue as we commonly understand it, because virtue must first be practiced on this level before the lesser known virtue of heaven even becomes relevant.

 

The cultivation of virtue on the level of humanity is as important as the cultivation of xing and ming, because it 'makes heaven glad' and removes the obstacles one inevitably encounters in cultivation.

I was thinking about let it pass because we get off topic and very far away of the OP, but something must be said, for the record. And because is good manners not to keep the last word (and good manners are virtue) I will not reply a reply to this.

But this is the problem with puritanism, first you begin with celibacy as compulsory for spiritual path (though we are speaking about neidan here) and then take a leap as to assert that celibacy is virtue and then speak about virtue forgetting that the point was not virtue per se but celibacy. In logics this is called fallacy. But what is worse are the consequences, because who is not celibate has no virtue and then is a vile person.

Second, Yan Xin speaks about good deeds, generosity, charity, goodness, etc. etc. So, a married person is not able to do good deeds? Are you buying it? Or worse, are you selling it?

About human virtue, well, I think that debate about it could be a league for which you are not ready yet. In Islam (but I know that here its perspectives are most of time neglected) there is a serious debate about what is angelic nature, human nature and animal nature (in what regards to ethics, behaviour and modes of knowledge). Again, go away from the society, is it in accordance with human nature?

The latter is only one example, there are several ones, characterizations and divisions regarding different levels of virtue and knowledge has not to be taken too lightly.

[damdao]

Umm ..you see, this is how it works:

 

How do children learn what is right and wrong?

 

 

• Children do what they see, more than what you say. It is important for you to provide a good model for your child to follow.
• Children pass through different stages of moral development beginning in early childhood and advancing through adulthood.
• Very young children do not really understand the concept of right and wrong. For them, what is "good" is what they like and what is "bad" is what they don't like. Therefore, it is important for adults to provide controls and limits for them. This is especially true for children who have no words to tell themselves, "No, don't pick the flowers."
• At about age 4 or 5, children begin to label or identify things that are "good" and "bad." They can talk about them, but the true understanding is still outside of their own feeling. Children of this age follow rules only because they are told to do so. That is why it is very important for adults to provide consistent and gentle guidance. As a child uses words to describe self-controlling behaviors, such as "No. No. Don't touch," they begin to internalize, or understand, what those words mean.
• By age 7 or 8, children's understanding of right and wrong seems to be based more on fear of being punished. For example, a child might feel that the reason people do not steal is that they will be caught by the police. Generally, children still have not developed true moral values. Again, it is important for adults to help children understand what is right and wrong, and why.
• By age 9, children are beginning to understand the Golden Rule: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. This is the beginning of a true understanding of right and wrong, of guilt and values.

http://www.kidsgrowth.com/resources/articledetail.cfm?id=1801

I think that as my mother tongue is not English I am not able to understand some subtleties and pleasantries but if you are not capable to think critically about what you inherit or what is impose on you, well... there is no much to say. Follow what it is said to you only because it is said by some elders, etc. If you think like a child perhaps you need this kind of education.

Besides, the golden rule is some kind categorical imperative (in the kantian sense) but is not at all the last word in ethics. You cannot cancel a debate invoking such a "golden rule".

[Taoist Texts]

SecretGrotto, on 27 Jan 2015 - 20:32, said:
Where are the true Neidan masters that are still alive and known by all as a consequence of their achievement? Or are they hiding in the mountains to cultivate still, perhaps even leading a Celibate lifestyle because of their isolation?

 

They are near you but to see it you need a real virtue, not some "golden standard" "as we commonly understand it".

ZOOM, on 19 Jan 2015 - 13:34, said:
I was told years ago that your teacher would look younger and younger.
How about some before / after photos of him or other progressed members
to prove your claims and to prove that you have actually the right to show up as you guys do!

 

 

All your questions can be answered positively and you think in a proper direction, but to get proofs you need to turn off the computer and travel far for a long time.

[opendao]

both statements are true. Can you imagine that or it doesn't fit your binary logic?

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Winston Smith, the main character of Nineteen Eighty-Four, works at the Ministry of Truth.^[1] It is an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete rising 300 metres into the air, containing over 3000 rooms above ground. On the outside wall are the three slogans of the Party: "WAR IS PEACE," "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY," "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."

 

 

in keeping with the concept of doublethink, the ministry is aptly named, in that it creates/manufactures "truth" in the Newspeak sense of the word. ..As well as administering truth, the ministry spreads a new language amongst the populace called Newspeak, in which, for example, "truth" is understood to mean statements like 2 + 2 = 5 when the situation warrants.In Newspeak, the ministry is known as Minitrue.