Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[opendao]

So then you resorted to a half sentence of a quote while changing the meaning of what you left out.

 

That's called lying. And it didn't work since I just demonstrated the 2nd half of the sentence plus several more examples.

 

the meaning is still the same, so keep your "lying accusations" same way and same place as you store your "generative fluid".

 

I have no wish to continue our unpleasant discussion. I made my conclusions. If somebody else can buy your arguments and see any flaws in my explanations, then I can answer. But basically everything was already told. If somebody thinks that the phrase has a different meaning in its full version - go ahead, publish the Chinese version and your translation. Then we can discuss.

[LaoZiDao]

As said before, the translator of TY had died and achieved nothing, you can get to here as well if you follow his book...or any book for that matter. Even if it were a true book of Neidan containing many "secrets" you'd still end up with nothing without a True Teacher (aka a Zhen Ren) to teach you.

 

It is so easy to feel all these post natal effects and take them as true alchemy. You could just as easily make up your own creative "methods" and get similar feelings and call it as "alchemy".

 

No need to even talk about Zhaobichen's achievements (though its not much better then Luk's) as your not even reading the Chinese version.

Edited February 1, 2015 by LaoZiDao

[voidisyinyang]

the meaning is still the same, so keep your "lying accusations" same way and same place as you store your "generative fluid".

 

I have no wish to continue our unpleasant discussion. I made my conclusions. If somebody else can buy your arguments and see any flaws in my explanations, then I can answer. But basically everything was already told. If somebody thinks that the phrase has a different meaning in its full version - go ahead, publish the Chinese version and your translation. Then we can discuss.

 

Wow - another lie to end your "discussion" of Taoist Yoga! Last year I went six months with no ejaculation - and so was I just storing up fluid the whole time? Obviously not. haha. The book is correct - qi energy is changed back into fluid when it moves away from the lower tan tien and vice versa.

 

For example the term "semen retention" is wrong and anyone who uses it is starting off practicing in the wrong direction because of the wrong intention.

 

I've said that on this forum long before you began your fear-mongering with no evidence.

 

As soon as you said Taoist Yoga was a wrong translation I asked you for evidence and got none.

 

So what did I do? I looked for evidence myself.

 

Then when I posted the Taoist Yoga text what did you do?

 

You twice resorted to posting half sentences so you could make up lies about the rest of the sentences.

 

In the first time it was about "generative force" versus "generative fluid" to claim Taoist Yoga was not about physical leakage.

 

In the 2nd time it was about the penis standing up versus gathering or losing vitality.

 

Nice try to confuse people but if you can't even quote a sentence properly from Taoist Yoga then I think there's something seriously wrong going on.

 

You said Taoist Yoga is not about physical leakage when it blatantly is about that issue.

 

So anyway yes Bluemind posted what your school is against:

 

sexual abstinence.

 

I already posted how Chunyi said that for advanced levels of qigong no thoughts about sex is allowed.

 

That's a strict requirement I heard him say only once since obviously most Western students could not follow that.

 

Maybe you didn't notice that Bluemind also practices SFQ. haha.

 

So the thing with Chunyi is the evidence of his success in his training can easily be found online.

 

I posted some proof of it already - he was even tested by top medical researchers using "gold standard" science, randomized controlled research.

 

Oh but your school has high credentials since why?

 

1) thousands of other schools are wrong

 

2) you have a website

 

3) you can't even quote Taoist Yoga properly and have to lie about it.

 

That last point includes your lie about farting.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

As said before, the translator of TY had died and achieved nothing, you can get to here as well if you follow his book...or any book for that matter. Even if it were a true book of Neidan containing many "secrets" you'd still end up with nothing without a True Teacher (aka a Zhen Ren) to teach you.

 

It is so easy to feel all these post natal effects and take them as true alchemy. You could just as easily make up your own creative "methods" and get similar feelings and call it as "alchemy".

 

No need to even talk about Zhaobichen's achievements (though its not much better then Luk's) as your not even reading the Chinese version.

 

Dude when you posted this:

 

 

Yuanjing leaking from your penis, and doing this will harm you, its forcefully stopping the leak of postnatal Jing. Blocking from coming out it does not turn it back to Yuanjing. Good way to cause prostate problems though.

 

If your going to leak, that's it, bad luck..natural process is happening, like an ordinary human.

 

I knew your level of practice was not very strong.

 

Again Taoist Yoga book is very clear that sublimation and purification has to happen to change the fluid back into qi.

 

Just as qi moving away from the lower tan tien changes into fluid so too does fluid undergoing sublimation and purification change back into qi.

 

This is because the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality is in the pineal gland and so when the jing moves up to the pineal gland it is ionized into chi energy.

 

Like I said before I went 6 months last year with no ejaculation. No problem.

 

The only thing is people around me became desperate to get my energy. haha.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[opendao]

This is because the Cavity of Prenatal Vitality is in the pineal gland and so when the jing moves up to the pineal gland it is ionized into chi energy.

 

Like I said before I went 6 months last year with no ejaculation. No problem.

 

The only thing is people around me became desperate to get my energy. haha.

 

obviously, there are much more problems

 

As said before, the translator of TY had died and achieved nothing, you can get to here as well if you follow his book...or any book for that matter. Even if it were a true book of Neidan containing many "secrets" you'd still end up with nothing without a True Teacher (aka a Zhen Ren) to teach you.

 

It is so easy to feel all these post natal effects and take them as true alchemy. You could just as easily make up your own creative "methods" and get similar feelings and call it as "alchemy".

 

No need to even talk about Zhaobichen's achievements (though its not much better then Luk's) as your not even reading the Chinese version.

 

nice sum up.

[voidisyinyang]

obviously, there are much more problems

 

 

nice sum up.

 

the book is based on teachings from the 16th C.

 

Whether the writer achieved any results is not indicative of the truth of the text or not.

 

That is again confusing cause and effect.

 

If I study from a personal teacher than obviously you want the teacher to have achieved results.

 

If I study from a book then it's the origin of the teachings that matter not the writer of the book.

 

You have recommended Wang Mu's book.

 

On the process of creating the internal medicine it states:

 

 

"Since it comes from outside and enters within it is called External Medicine. According to the rule, External Medicine must be submitted to three hundred full cycles in order to be in accord with the "mysterious and wondrous mechanism." p. 67

 

This is also what Taoist Yoga teaches - the cycles refers to the small universe/microcosmic orbit meditation.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=BWKEI2oxrR8C&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=Wang+Mu%27s+Foundations+of+Inner+Alchemy,+Pregadio,+An+Anonymous+Master&source=bl&ots=JJxDOLqoo8&sig=-muP6ZGGQBHu4LcjzPgCwEufdYc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7InNVIGLBsudgwS4oAE&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Wang%20Mu%27s%20Foundations%20of%20Inner%20Alchemy%2C%20Pregadio%2C%20An%20Anonymous%20Master&f=false

Edited February 1, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

A good example of what I'm talking about is qigong master Yan Xin gave mass healings often there were not understood in the local dialect of the thousands of people he was healing. His energy still healed people yet the words were not understood by the people being healed.

[LaoZiDao]

You use so many different terms mixed and mashed together. Maybe I am not well learned like you in understanding English attempts at translating Neidan terms. What you really mean when you say "the fluids" and "Qi"? These could mean completely different things. Then ull use Yuan Jing, vitality etc...what's what? I know the Chinese names and meanings very well, but do not know these terms your using very well, care to clarify? "The fluids", from you I'd take as Houtin Jing(post natal), which which changes back to Qi?, houtian or xiantian? :\ anyway some huge gaps in what your saying here in any case..

 

BTW applying what a Qigong Master said does not make it automatically correct or applicable to Neidan. 2 completely different things.

[LaoZiDao]

A good example of what I'm talking about is qigong master Yan Xin gave mass healings often there were not understood in the local dialect of the thousands of people he was healing. His energy still healed people yet the words were not understood by the people being healed.

Has no relation to Neidan, what's your point? Postnatal arts.

[blue eyed snake]

Open Dao,

 

I would like to ask you two questions based on the quote here and the text on the heavenly circle.

What we feel is postheaven. So you feel that postheaven jing moves up your spine to the brain. This is very well known "pseudo-MCO" effect. Shortly speaking, by such exercise you spend the preheaven and damage your brain, instead of replenishing your yuan jing.

 

Just think, do you feel how you're ageing? Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis. So feelings, awareness etc are not good friends here.

 

Sure, yuan jing has to be replenished first, but the question is how. It's impossible to replenish it by having no sex or forcing sexual jing to move to the brain. Moreover, it's dangerous. See http://all-dao.com/heavenly-circle.html for more.

 

To begin, I'm very green at these things so please answer in plain english

 

What would you make of the following: I've started medical qigong ( suffering from an condition that's deemed unreparable by regular medicine) and on the advise of my teacher doing standing posture almost everyday for about half an hour After about 6 lessons he stopped correcting my bodyposture so we can assume that's alright. Besides I started meditating, say 20 minutes a day.

 

This is a class for people who suffer from several conditions, they're not much interested in theory, they want to feel healthy again.

 

our teacher doesn't ask us to visualize anything, hadn't told us about the smaller heavenly cycle. But looking back I remember that he did advise me after a few weeks that I touch the tongue on the upper palate.

 

after I think about 3 months I experienced what I now know is dubbed the smaller heavenly cycle. It felt as though a dry river just suddenly filled up. To be truthful I was shocked by it, what the h**ll is happening to my body. It was accompanied by a very sweet taste in the mouth, a lot of sweet saliva. Doing standing posture the sweet saliva effect is sometimes repeated, the initial feeling of a powerful stream is not. Though I do tend to feel something inexplicable 'moving' .

Other things that just started all by themselves, without anybody telling me about them are inverse abdominal breathing and the spontaneous contractions of the perineum.

 

Reading on the website.

--

A pupil asked: There are some practitioners who feel by themselves like qi moves in a circle through the Ren and Du Meridians, and therefore declare that the themselves have opened these channels. This method of opening Ren and Du channels using thoughts and other such methods "guiding qi through the channels of the heavenly circle”, do they differ from the' way of the elixir?

The Teacher of Single Yang answered: Earlier it has already been said about the principle that "if a body does not have a true seed, it will only be like using fire to boil an empty pot", and about its dangers for practitioners. These practitioners, feeling as "qi moves through the channels Ren and Du", accelerate the process of loss of their own Jing. This is a way of speeding up the approach of death, it does a lot of harm and has no benefits. It's just a wrong, a “side-road” method of practice.

Our School of Wu Chung-Xu – Liu Hua-yang teaches a dual perfection of Xing and Ming, and what is called "heavenly circle" - it is really the "heavenly circle of the elixir’s way. " Once a student of the School produces a "true seed", then it will be not qi but rather the “true water” that will circulate through the Ren and Du Meridians, also the locations of its awareness will be different too. In the elixir way these channels are passed using the qi of the Previous sky, in that process of circulation from top to bottom a "sweet dew" will flow, directly sinking into the lower Dantian, and it happens in reality, not in imagination.

As stated above in "heavenly circle" of qigong, its the external qi that rotates exhausting the body's jing. On the other hand, in the way of the elixir, the heavenly circle leads to longevity, it increases Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi in the body, but the "heavenly circle" of qigong leads to depletion of the Yuan-jing, leads to death.

Once a student completes the "elixir seed", a heavenly circle of alchemy starts by itself and will last continuously, collecting the " small medicine", replenishing their own Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi, which has huge benefits and no harm.

--

 

I'm interested in your opinion

 

the other question: you say " Just think, do you feel how you're ageing? Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis. So feelings, awareness etc are not good friends here."

 

That makes me wonder and i definitely don't agree with it. People become tired and tend to ignore that. I think in those terms, wasting their yuan qi. I know from myself and other people that we tend to ignore the signals our body gives us. Our bodyawareness is far to low. This is partly due to a culture that tells us to ignore it, just to go on in the rat race. True, you can't feel it diminishing on a daily basis, but you have an awareness of it that imo should be cultivated.

 

I do not know how old you are, but middleaged people tent to feel how their energy is slowly diminishing and really old people, they feel it on a daily basis, they say: well, it's just everyday a little less...

 

so I wonder how you've come to this statement

Edited February 1, 2015 by blue eyed snake

[Yae]

A pupil asked: There are some practitioners who feel by themselves like qi moves in a circle through the Ren and Du Meridians, and therefore declare that the themselves have opened these channels. This method of opening Ren and Du channels using thoughts and other such methods "guiding qi through the channels of the heavenly circle”, do they differ from the' way of the elixir?

The Teacher of Single Yang answered: Earlier it has already been said about the principle that "if a body does not have a true seed, it will only be like using fire to boil an empty pot", and about its dangers for practitioners. These practitioners, feeling as "qi moves through the channels Ren and Du", accelerate the process of loss of their own Jing. This is a way of speeding up the approach of death, it does a lot of harm and has no benefits. It's just a wrong, a “side-road” method of practice.

Our School of Wu Chung-Xu – Liu Hua-yang teaches a dual perfection of Xing and Ming, and what is called "heavenly circle" - it is really the "heavenly circle of the elixir’s way. " Once a student of the School produces a "true seed", then it will be not qi but rather the “true water” that will circulate through the Ren and Du Meridians, also the locations of its awareness will be different too. In the elixir way these channels are passed using the qi of the Previous sky, in that process of circulation from top to bottom a "sweet dew" will flow, directly sinking into the lower Dantian, and it happens in reality, not in imagination.

As stated above in "heavenly circle" of qigong, its the external qi that rotates exhausting the body's jing. On the other hand, in the way of the elixir, the heavenly circle leads to longevity, it increases Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi in the body, but the "heavenly circle" of qigong leads to depletion of the Yuan-jing, leads to death.

Once a student completes the "elixir seed", a heavenly circle of alchemy starts by itself and will last continuously, collecting the " small medicine", replenishing their own Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi, which has huge benefits and no harm.

--

 

I'm not really a Neidan student yet, but it seems clear enough that that is probably a felt effect of the method (but the method itself doesn't rely on feeling). It's a result not the cause. And it happens without mental guidance or guiding with breathing etc.

 

the other question: you say " Just think, do you feel how you're ageing? Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis. So feelings, awareness etc are not good friends here."

 

That makes me wonder and i definitely don't agree with it.

 

That's an effect of aging, not feeling the actual energy responsible for it.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Bluemind

[opendao]

after I think about 3 months I experienced what I now know is dubbed the smaller heavenly cycle. It felt as though a dry river just suddenly filled up. To be truthful I was shocked by it, what the h**ll is happening to my body. It was accompanied by a very sweet taste in the mouth, a lot of sweet saliva. Doing standing posture the sweet saliva effect is sometimes repeated, the initial feeling of a powerful stream is not. Though I do tend to feel something inexplicable 'moving' .

Other things that just started all by themselves, without anybody telling me about them are inverse abdominal breathing and the spontaneous contractions of the perineum.

 

Reading on the website.

--

On the other hand, in the way of the elixir, the heavenly circle leads to longevity, it increases Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi in the body, but the "heavenly circle" of qigong leads to depletion of the Yuan-jing, leads to death.

Once a student completes the "elixir seed", a heavenly circle of alchemy starts by itself and will last continuously, collecting the " small medicine", replenishing their own Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi, which has huge benefits and no harm.

--

 

I'm interested in your opinion

 

If it is a real small heavenly circle, then you are supposed to experience _much_ more, continuously. If it stopped and nothing has changed considerably in your body, then it's not a real heavenly circle or you haven't managed properly the previous level ("returning ming")...

 

the other question: you say " Just think, do you feel how you're ageing? Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis. So feelings, awareness etc are not good friends here."

 

That makes me wonder and i definitely don't agree with it. People become tired and tend to ignore that. I think in those terms, wasting their yuan qi. I know from myself and other people that we tend to ignore the signals our body gives us. Our bodyawareness is far to low. This is partly due to a culture that tells us to ignore it, just to go on in the rat race. True, you can't feel it diminishing on a daily basis, but you have an awareness of it that imo should be cultivated.

 

I do not know how old you are, but middleaged people tent to feel how their energy is slowly diminishing and really old people, they feel it on a daily basis, they say: well, it's just everyday a little less...

 

so I wonder how you've come to this statement

 

I agree with you, but I spoke more about "Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis". What you describe is the result of loosing ming, but can we feel ming being wasted or restored at the moment it happens? If not then sensitivity doesn't help in the practice.

 

[blue eyed snake]

Thank you Open Dao,

 

you've explained it clearly to me.

I've experienced a lot of changes in my body, very slowly it's healing but there is a lot more to heal, that takes time.

So when I understand your response, it's not strange that this initial effect 'closed down' again. There's just a lot more work to be done. And that is no news to me.

 

about the second question, I see that i should have read your text more attentive

 

BES

[Yae]

I just spoke with Qigong Master Jim Nance, one of Master Lin's most accomplished students.

He said that even though he's had experiences with out of body travel and other phenomena, those things aren't his area of expertise. He said that asking him about Neidan is like asking a PhD in History a question about French. He's a master healer.

 

So really if someone is interested in Neidan, well, SFQ really isn't.

 

It's interested in healing. Neidan goals are never the focus.

 

But he said I would have to ask Chunyi Lin himself whether he has personal experience with Neidan. But really, even if he does, I mean, why practice with one person who's not even focused on that instead of practicing with a large school of people existing FOR that?

[voidisyinyang]

Ask chunyi. But experience of energy is better.

[opendao]

I just spoke with Qigong Master Jim Nance, one of Master Lin's most accomplished students.

He said that even though he's had experiences with out of body travel and other phenomena, those things aren't his area of expertise. He said that asking him about Neidan is like asking a PhD in History a question about French. He's a master healer.

 

So really if someone is interested in Neidan, well, SFQ really isn't.

 

It's interested in healing. Neidan goals are never the focus.

 

Thanks. At least it's a honest answer. My respect to Jim.

[voidisyinyang]

Jim healed my mom long distance while he talkwd to me on ph. She was suddenly able to walk. Before barely cud walk. Next day walked half mile. He had to send her energy several times while shwashewas asleep. He told me he was having a conversation with her. Jim is very modest.

[voidisyinyang]

He does that type of healing everyday but he doesn't share his spirit travel stories much more. He told me but said i can't share.

[LaoZiDao]

spirit travel stories

 

Yin Shen travel stories at most.

 

out of body travel and other phenomena, those things aren't his area of expertise

 

 

healing everyday

 

Still not Neidan.

[voidisyinyang]

O.K. so yeah Jim Nance does yin shen spirit travel.

 

If he does long distance healing every day that is also a type of yin shen spirit travel.

 

It's a matter of intensity. When I told him about seeing Chunyi creating multiple yin spirits to heal people Jim said that was a very profound level of healing since each spirit was individualized and sent out to people to heal them and that Jim does not do that level of healing.

 

But anyway Jim doesn't like using computers - says they mess with his mind. haha.

 

But the so-called "real" Neidan school - what do they do?

 

1) resort to half-sentence misquote lies about other Neidan teachings.

 

2) have no proof that their school has any kind of spiritual (insert proper Neidan word here) skills. (i.e. how about post photos of luxuriant hair on their masters heads?). haha.

 

3) steep themselves in pedantic tautological propaganda that are classic mind-control techniques

 

4) resort to cheap ad hominems when exposed of the above

 

5) sit on the internet all day attacking the so-called 1000s of fake schools.

 

What can I say? Hilarious!

 

If you want to learn from a real teacher like Chunyi or Jim then you need to practice more.

 

Jim told me to do 2 hours of standing active exercise a day.

 

Have I done that yet? Nope.

 

So I'm not even qualified to be Jim's real student yet. When I was doing 2 hours of non-stop full lotus meditation a day he said my energy called him to me. But that's when I wasn't working a job more or less full time, sometimes more than full time.

 

But he did say I can share my experiences on the internet.

 

I did ask Jim about experiencing or having a "yang shen" and he indicated this may have happened to him. He gave me some examples.

 

But I don't know - to develop yang shen abilities requires more focus on storing up the energy.

 

So for example Chunyi shared how he levitated up 9 feet, spiraling while he was in full lotus.

 

But that was when he was in deep meditation in the mountains in China.

 

Obviously he can't do that on command - but obviously levitation is a deep body transformation.

 

Now - do I know the proper Chinese terminology for it? Nope. haha.

 

Chunyi, I'm sure, knows all these Chinese terms, etc. but as he said - he's not focused on sharing information, he's focused on improving people's lives.

 

Jim, for example, in one 45 minute healing session, had a man's club foot completely straighten out - so he transformed the man's bones. Now was that Jim doing it? Nope - it was the Emptiness energy itself. And I met the man who got healed from that - he was at the Level 3 class in January 2014. So again I don't know the proper Chinese term to describe and pedantically classify that type of energy skill. haha.

 

I'll let you people dismiss it with your proper translations and classifications, etc.

[voidisyinyang]

Also for Jim to get to his level he meditated all day long for years and he practiced celibacy.

 

So saying you don't need to practice celibacy and only need to practice 2 hours a day for immortality Neidan, blah, blah (insert fancy mind-control Chinese terminology here) is a joke! haha.

[damdao]

 

Absolutely, and anyone able to tame the white tiger is not doing it with mantras and visualisations

 

Is there a chance you are you able to expand on the 'other reasons'? Maybe I can learn something here.

 

I found this, perhaps you already knew it:

 

Sex includes not only actual sexual activity, but all forms of sensuality.

With respect to the latter, the early adepts were especially concerned about sexual fantasies, both

conscious and unconscious, and, in the case of male practitioners, nocturnal seminal emission due

to "demons of sleep" (shuimo) and "yin-ghosts" (yingui). Komjathy, The Way of Complete Perfection, p. 101

 

This gloss is made in discussing the daily practice texts, between them the Ten admonitions of Ma Danyang.

I think that Chinese buddhists think something similar.

 

But I endorse your post, it will be interesting an expansion over the "other reasons", especially from the point of view of actual neidan practice.

[opendao]

This gloss is made in discussing the daily practice texts, between them the Ten admonitions of Ma Danyang.

I think that Chinese buddhists think something similar.

 

But I endorse your post, it will be interesting an expansion over the "other reasons", especially from the point of view of actual neidan practice.

 

yes, my hint was about "yin-ghosts". And it's not just "fantasies". Some high level Chan monks, long life celibate (and even virgin), being in dazuo-"meditation" since day one, but have failed because of that... Neidan - is a RISK, not just a pleasant journey. Even in this topic it's obvious how incorrect practices can ruin mental and physical health, but there are even more dangerous things. Now people are weak, lazy and don't practice hard, but in previous time such things have happen very often.

[Taoist Texts]

But the so-called "real" Neidan school - what do they do?

 

1) resort to half-sentence misquote lies about other Neidan teachings.

 

2) have no proof that their school has any kind of spiritual (insert proper Neidan word here) skills. (i.e. how about post photos of luxuriant hair on their masters heads?). haha.

 

3) steep themselves in pedantic tautological propaganda that are classic mind-control techniques

 

4) resort to cheap ad hominems when exposed of the above

 

5) sit on the internet all day attacking the so-called 1000s of fake schools.

 

Still Neidan.

[damdao]

yes, my hint was about "yin-ghosts". And it's not just "fantasies". Some high level Chan monks, long life celibate (and even virgin), being in dazuo-"meditation" since day one, but have failed because of that... Neidan - is a RISK, not just a pleasant journey. Even in this topic it's obvious how incorrect practices can ruin mental and physical health, but there are even more dangerous things. Now people are weak, lazy and don't practice hard, but in previous time such things have happen very often.

 

Are yingui sexually related only or they are related to all yin activities? Do you mention dazuo in relation with this aspect?

 

 

In the book Cultivating Perfection by Komjathy again, are cited several fragments about shuimo and yingui (from Wang's Chongyang Jinguan yusuo jue, for instance and a Commentary to Zhang's Boduan Jiutian shegshenzhangjing), and shows that they can provoke shen leakage, is for that reason (and that of the first question) that neidan opposes to lucid dreaming practices?