Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[opendao]

Winston Smith, the main character of Nineteen Eighty-Four, works at the Ministry of Truth.^[1]

 

see no difference between " to see it" and "to get proofs"?

 

Edited January 28, 2015 by opendao

[SecretGrotto]

Second, Yan Xin speaks about good deeds, generosity, charity, goodness, etc. etc. So, a married person is not able to do good deeds? Are you buying it? Or worse, are you selling it?

 

I agree with you. I did not mean to imply any connection between celibacy and virtue.

 

It does not make sense to say that you cannot be virtuous if you're not celibate, you are right. That is not logical, as you say, in fact it sounds inane.

 

 

I was referring to something else, namely the notion that true realised Neidan masters would hide forever their attainments and teachings just because of some strange interpretation some people have of old human texts.

 

A real master that has achieved Wu Wei would naturally be virtuous as we understand it, on the level of humanity. Also, the greatest masters like Jesus actively displayed their divine nature, to remind humanity that they are too divine. They didn't do it to "compete in a pissing contest", but because humans would only believe if they see the signs.

 

And for how long do you think secret methods would remain unrecorded on some medium, just because some old text says it is never to be recorded? We're rapidly progressing in technology almost to the state shown in Minority Report, faster than you would imagine. Three things cannot long be hidden: The Sun, the Moon, and the Truth.

[Brian]

 

Well, if everything just "burns up," it's not all that icky, no?

 

What initially captivated me by your comment was the word "unnecessary." Of course that isn't exactly what you wrote.

 

My answer to Daeluin: "Sounds unnecessary for a tianxian."

 

If one traverses the Taoist immortal path and achieves celestial immortality, would s/he care what happens to his/her physical body after death? For example, what if s/he has family members that s/he leaves behind? Not all of them may know of his/her immortal path. For psychological comfort of those an immortal left behind, s/he may definitely want to leave his/her body around. So the community can mourn and bury him/her.

 

Not all immortals were/are hermits away from society.

 

What Buddhists do at death is completely different. And I can't speak to that.

Yeah, my comment was a bit tongue-in-check. Really, I think it seems rather dramatic. Not my style, anyhow. When the time comes, I suspect I'll choose to just quietly not return.

[Daeluin]

As to how xiantian actually works, your guess is as good as mine.

 

And perhaps I was confusing xian with tian - it seems the judgment was of regular old immortality after all, not celestial. Which confuses me even more, as I wouldn't think this is such a hurdle, should one's momentum be so aligned. In any case I'm sure all anyone can ask for is to do their best. This isn't a competition.

 

As to this aging thing, I've been wondering. It seems the Jade Elixir is what turns back the aging clock and leads to physical immortality, but it is the Golden Elixir that leads to spiritual freedom. I've been wondering about this for a while, as it seems many will focus on cultivating the Golden Elixir and not worry about their physical immortality, taking that as a side-path, perhaps.

 

And yet, as Taoist Texts' last comment points out, the tao is very paradoxical, and any truths we speak naturally contain untruths. So is the Jade Elixir just as important to cultivate as the Golden Elixir, even though it might seem to be leading one (perhaps temporarily) away from the golden light?

Edited January 28, 2015 by Daeluin

[damdao]

I agree with you. I did not mean to imply any connection between celibacy and virtue.

 

It does not make sense to say that you cannot be virtuous if you're not celibate, you are right. That is not logical, as you say, in fact it sounds inane.

 

 

I was referring to something else, namely the notion that true realised Neidan masters would hide forever their attainments and teachings just because of some strange interpretation some people have of old human texts.

 

A real master that has achieved Wu Wei would naturally be virtuous as we understand it, on the level of humanity. Also, the greatest masters like Jesus actively displayed their divine nature, to remind humanity that they are too divine. They didn't do it to "compete in a pissing contest", but because humans would only believe if they see the signs.

 

And for how long do you think secret methods would remain unrecorded on some medium, just because some old text says it is never to be recorded? We're rapidly progressing in technology almost to the state shown in Minority Report, faster than you would imagine. Three things cannot long be hidden: The Sun, the Moon, and the Truth.

 

I am glad that at least we can limit the field and extension of the terms under discussion.

The next is a very complex issue and sometimes the obvious or apparent of a situation don't let -to the inattentive reader- see the propfound (as we can see in the taoisttexts' reply). I will give you some examples in what seems to be your tradition. Some things can be "hidden in the crowd" as the expression goes, as in the case of Swami Nityananda Giri who, because of the leakeage of kriyayoga methods, published a book with all the techniques and procedures of kriya yoga, BUT, without giving out the order, amount, limit, etc. things that has to be displayed by a teacher.

Hidden masters: perhaps are hidden if one is not able to search properly. To read the diaries of Lahiri Masahaya it was needed to know Bengali (not now of course), in this case it is good to begin learning Chinese and then search for in the Chinese megaweb, and then you will find things. But, is this a proof? Do it serve to your purpose? Because of that you have to invest "some" time and dedication, in order to know and interact with people and above all, know what is under the surface. This is not a simple task that can be done reading a book of watching a video. Besides, it is important to see oneself and ask, why I am afraid to get involved with actual people? I'm not saying that this is your case, but in some posts there seems to be an attempt to force the ancient methods in order to show that you must to be allowed to learn neidan on the home's couch watching or reading.

There are more variants to bear in mind, but most of it is personal work, if one is interested.

[joeblast]

Maybe what a celestial immortal does with his/her body at death is within his/her immortal prerogative to choose. Like a buffet. So many options!

One just wants to be at the table, not on it

Edited January 28, 2015 by joeblast

[voidisyinyang]

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-secret-of-true-vitality-as.html

 

I was told by the super-secret Neidan school that I was "totally wrong" because celibacy is not the key to the Taoist Yoga book.

 

Instead the energy is lost - not based on a physical leakage.

 

 

Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

 

 

Otherwise celibate people would be immortal! This is a nice twisting of cause and effect that can easily confuse people.

 

It is only through the alchemical purification energy process that the "yuan jing" is created and stored up.

 

But the Taoist Yoga book, as I already documented, insists that physical loss or drainage is the main way the energy is lost.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-not-letting-alchemical-agent-drain.html I reposted the Taoist Yoga quotes on physical drainage on my blog.

 

I also posted my new response about yuan jing aka True Vitality on my blog - wherein I give more Taoist Yoga quotes on the connection between "yuan jing" as True Vitality aka essential generative force.

 

The super-secret Neidan school first claimed that Taoist Yoga was not focused on celibacy when it's the exact opposite as I showed already with the above quotes about drainage.

 

Now the following false claim has been made by the super-secret Neidan school:

 

 

Yuan Jing ("essential generative force" in the text) is some other kind of energy, that can be generated only at puberty age.

 

My blog post completely demolishes this claim again simply by actually just quoting the Taoist Yoga book.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-secret-of-true-vitality-as.html

 

So the super-secret Neidan school claims yuan jing aka essential generative force can only be "generated at puberty" while the Taoist Yoga book is completely based on restoring it!

 

Question: You have said the method of

producing true generative force

differs according to the three categories of practisers:.... p. 19

So here we have "true generative force" aka True vitality aka "essential generative force."

 

 

 

 

The element of water in the lower belly is thus scorched by spirit's fire and thereby

transmuted into true vitality.

The practiser should gather immediately the true generative force.

p. 20

 

and

 

 

....vital force will develop of itself and will begat true vitality which will be linked with (essential) life in the lower tan t'ien centre (under the navel) to produce the golden elixir (chin tan).' p.7

 

and again

 

 

"The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality. Spirit is (essential) nature and vitality is (eternal) life which is essential generative force....The patriarch feared that the student might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring. p. 7

 

and

 

 

 

Prenatal vitality is produced

and stored up by this (breathing) process while (fire in) the heart and (water in the) lower abdomen mingle. p. 36

Fir

e

derived from (prenatal) vitality purifies breathing and contributes to the manifestation of spirit. p. 46

 

and finally:

 

 

True vitality is vital force which has been purified by the alchemical process. p. 6

Edited January 29, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[opendao]

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-secret-of-true-vitality-as.html

 

I was told by the super-secret Neidan school that I was "totally wrong" because celibacy is not the key to the Taoist Yoga book.

 

Instead the energy is lost - not based on a physical leakage.

 

Otherwise celibate people would be immortal! This is a nice twisting of cause and effect that can easily confuse people.

 

Yes, you're more confused now then before. Let's see how many other people cannot read.

 

It is only through the alchemical purification energy process that the "yuan jing" is created and stored up.

 

Wrong. Open Huangdineijing and read. Actually, the same thing is described in TY, but you DON'T SEE.

 

But the Taoist Yoga book, as I already documented, insists that physical loss or drainage is the main way the energy is lost.

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-not-letting-alchemical-agent-drain.html I reposted the Taoist Yoga quotes on physical drainage on my blog.

 

Maybe you have difficulties with the word "physical"?

 

TY doesn't speak about physical drain, it repeats usual phrases from other books about Yuan Jing / Qi leakage, which is not physical by definition.

 

 

The super-secret Neidan school first claimed that Taoist Yoga was not focused on celibacy when it's the exact opposite as I showed already with the above quotes about drainage.

 

no. You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain". You have no proofs that by stopping "physical drain" you can "store up" yuan jing. Go back and read CAREFULLY.

 

My blog post completely demolishes this claim again simply by actually just quoting the Taoist Yoga book.

 

You're so hilarious. You demolish only your own false views.

 

So the super-secret Neidan school claims yuan jing aka essential generative force can only be "generated at puberty" while the Taoist Yoga book is completely based on restoring it!

 

Can you understand that usual people also have yuan jing? Yuan jing is generated on its own till puberty, then people start to use it and waste it. It's a basis of TCM. If people don't have yuan jing, then they cannot have children.

 

That's why Neidan and even TY book speak evidently about RESTORING yuan jing. And for sure it's the only way for those who have already spent their jing, I don't understand who you argue with here.

 

p.s. Btw, our school's founder was a teacher of Zhao Bichen, the author of TY book. Then Zhao has left Wu-Liu Pai, without getting much. So maybe we know better what he wrote, especially when he just copied-pasted Wu-Liu Pai's books in his Taoist Yoga?

 

p.p.s. "super-secret" school has explained you more then "qigong masters touched by Lao Zi in their dreams" all together. So who really opens secrets? To open a secret, you need to know a secret first...

 

I know Innersoundqigong cannot accept that, but I write not for him.

[voidisyinyang]

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain". You have no proofs that by stopping "physical drain" you can "store up" yuan jing.

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fterebess.hu%2Fzen%2Fmesterek%2FTaoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf&ei=vdbKVPvbMo-UyASysILgCQ&usg=AFQjCNGy4SrrA7UspVUt4BXCO5nDid_6UA&sig2=DnxdvAo5sBjWB0mGZa_Nmg&bvm=bv.84607526,d.aWw

 

pdf book link

 

I have already quoted

 

"...might let it drain away by the genital duct (yang kuan) to create offspring." p. 7

 

So you say once again:

 

 

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain".

 

that's blatantly false.

 

 

More evidence is easy to provide.

 

 

"'When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate (sheng szu ch'ia at the root of the penis) is not blocked (by a finger pressed on it) it will leave by that gate, turn liquid, become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way but will change into vitality if it is turned back (and sublimated in the microcosmic orbit).'" p. 8

 

and you said what?

 

 

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain".

 

Wrong again.

 

 

"...with his gate of mortality wide open and real nature impaired, his vital forces flow out like running water." p. 18

 

O.K. so the energy is lost by the fluid flowing out.

 

Pretty straightforward in the book - it's all about how to retract the penis to change the fluid back into vitality through purification process.

 

 

The whole body will be rejuvenated through this cavity of mortality which is the centre that produces vitality and which ordinary men ignore in spite of its daily functioning. p. 24

 

and

 

 

Question: I have read about blocking the genital duct to purify the outflowing alchemical agent....Answer: ...If the generative force is not purified prenatal vitality will not develop; if so when can you gather the microcosmic outer (alchemical) agent to make good the loss of genital fluid?" p. 33

 

and you said what? Read the book carefully? Hilarious!

 

 

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain".

 

 

Seriously - what a joke!

 

"...you should press your finger on the mortal cavity (at the base of the penis) to ascertain the quantity of generative force that flows out....The generative force is the most precious thing for the human body...." p. 33

 

 

and

 

 

"Hence the method of correct breathing to circulate quick fire up and down (in the microcosmic orbit) and so immoblise the generative force causing the genital organ to retract (thus stopping the drain of vitality)." p. 34

 

but wait...

 

 

 

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain".

 

Hilarious!

 

 

"The method should begin when the penis erects at night and consists of blocking the genital gate with pointed concentration in order to drive the spirit into the cavity of vitality (under the navel)." p. 40

 

So the genital gate is the end of the penis - meaning you are blocking again the drainage of fluid.

 

What what did you say again?

 

You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain".

 

You're right I don't have any arguments.

 

Just quotes from the book.

 

 

This liquid contains spermatozoa; if it follows its earthly course it will flow out to produce offspring; but if it reverses this course it will contribute to the production of the golden elixir. This is only a matter of following or reversing the way of the world which the ordinary man cannot understand.

 

p. 48

 

 

"These two kinds of breathing are motivated by the sole thought of 'leading the inner fire' to turn the wheel of law (for the double purpose of stopping all wandering thoughts and of blocking the drainage of generative fluid)." p. 49

 

So that makes you wrong for the what time?

 

tenth time.

 

Wrong for the tenth time.

 

First quote I had already posted twice - so you chose to ignore it.

 

Also ignored were all my previous quotes about draining away and drainage - which you wrongly claim are about energy and not physical leakage.

 

Again it's not an either/or scenario but physical leakage is the main way the energy is lost.

 

ten quotes already and not even half way through the book.

 

Oh wait - you ignored this quote also

 

p. 58:

 

You have spoken of vitality which drains away continuously; how does one stop its drain? The only method is to shut the genital gate...

 

and

 

 

"When the generative and vital forces move away from the lower tan t'ien they become liquid but when they return to the cavity they become prenatal vitality."

p. 59

 

There's more obviously but that should be enough for other people to read.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[LaoZiDao]

"physical loss or drainage is the main way the energy is lost"

 

Okay, and even you stop having sex. You will still have nocturnal emmisions, and still spending Yuanjing in daily life. Its not RESTORED from celibacy, it is ONE way wastage can be minimized (as said before in a previous posts, with extra details).

Edited January 30, 2015 by LaoZiDao

[voidisyinyang]

You will still have nocturnal emmisions

 

Not if you follow the Taoist Yoga book.

 

The whole point of the book is to stop all drainage as physical loss as the key to the alchemical training.

 

So no - if you are doing the training correctly you are not to have nocturnal emissions.

 

Do you not believe me?

 

O.K. I'll go through the book again.

 

People are really fighting this.

 

I already posted a quote about this.

 

 

 

"If the teacher denies this and says his method is to turn back the flow of generative force to fortify his body so that it will be restored to its original condition before puberty and cause the penis to cease standing during sleep and to retract, his is the authentic method." p. 8

"In case of

nocturnal emission you should practice the method taught in Chapter 10 to stop it entirely."

p. 23

 

http://innersoundqigong.blogspot.com/2015/01/on-not-letting-alchemical-agent-drain.html

Edited January 30, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[LaoZiDao]

"'When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate (sheng szu ch'ia at the root of the penis) is not blocked (by a finger pressed on it) it will leave by that gate, turn liquid, become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way but will change into vitality if it is turned back (and sublimated in the microcosmic orbit).'" p. 8".

"The book" said it, maybe you should get another book. Zhongliquan mentions about this "method" of retracting the tortoise as being one of the many minor and inconsistent methods (aka a false method).

As explained in a previous post I saw, this is not Yuanjing leaking from your penis, and doing this will harm you, its forcefully stopping the leak of postnatal Jing. Blocking from coming out it does not turn it back to Yuanjing. Good way to cause prostate problems though.

If your going to leak, that's it, bad luck..natural process is happening, like an ordinary human.

Edited January 30, 2015 by LaoZiDao

[opendao]

ISQ has intensily quoted about "drain". Obviously, "leakage" on the energy level is followed by the semen emission (for men).

So TY speaks a lot about the method how to prevent that. The main question is WHEN we have to revert the process of draining.

ISQ insists, that it's in the moment of "physical drain", so if man has no sex, then there is no drain.

Let's see TY: "When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate is not blocked it will leave by that gate, turn liquid and become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way". Obviously yuan jing ("generative force") and semen ("generative fluid") are not the same even for Zhao Bichen. That's why I told that it's wrong to think that the drain is physical. That's why it's too late to stop the semen flow (as LaoziDao correctly mentioned). So TY doesn't speak about physical drain.

But let's return to WHEN. "When the generative force is about to flow out". The previous sentence in the book gives an answer: "when the penis stands during sleep". So the real drain happens when "vitality manifests" (according to TY, in other schools the opinions are different). Really it doesn't matter, do you have sex or not, do you have sexual desires or not. If you don't know the specific method to apply at a specific time, then all this celibacy is in vain: yuan jing is transformed to postheaven jing and will flow away sooner or later.

So again the same: book is wrong, book is incomplete, but even this wrong book is not about "celibacy as the main form to stop leakage". Method is different. Alas, it's more complex then just to press by a finger on the root of penis...

[thelerner]

Ironically spending time looking at a computer screen and caring about others opinions and what they think is also a source of leakage.

 

In the scheme of things are hours in front of the computer better or worse then an nocturnal emission?

 

<at least the nocturnal emission gives us a really great dream>

Edited January 30, 2015 by thelerner

[Yae]

I have a question. Am I correct that physical immortality is not a goal of Neidan, but is theoretically possible?

 

But if a person has merged ming and xing, reaching the Earth Immortal stage, how is it even possible to die of old age?

 

If a person has enough yuan qi, how could they ever die "of natural causes"?

 

How long would an Earthly Immortal live, if they didn't continue on in the practice to eventually transcend the physical like Bodhidharma?

[joeblast]

 

ISQ has intensily quoted about "drain". Obviously, "leakage" on the energy level is followed by the semen emission (for men).

So TY speaks a lot about the method how to prevent that. The main question is WHEN we have to revert the process of draining.

ISQ insists, that it's in the moment of "physical drain", so if man has no sex, then there is no drain.

Let's see TY: "When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate is not blocked it will leave by that gate, turn liquid and become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way". Obviously yuan jing ("generative force") and semen ("generative fluid") are not the same even for Zhao Bichen. That's why I told that it's wrong to think that the drain is physical. That's why it's too late to stop the semen flow (as LaoziDao correctly mentioned). So TY doesn't speak about physical drain.

But let's return to WHEN. "When the generative force is about to flow out". The previous sentence in the book gives an answer: "when the penis stands during sleep". So the real drain happens when "vitality manifests" (according to TY, in other schools the opinions are different). Really it doesn't matter, do you have sex or not, do you have sexual desires or not. If you don't know the specific method to apply at a specific time, then all this celibacy is in vain: yuan jing is transformed to postheaven jing and will flow away sooner or later.

So again the same: book is wrong, book is incomplete, but even this wrong book is not about "celibacy as the main form to stop leakage". Method is different. Alas, it's more complex then just to press by a finger on the root of penis...

this semantic juxtapositioning is getting very old between all of you.

 

all of you, so intent on asserting not only where you are right but where the other is wrong, and in doing so put words in the others mouth. both of yas.

 

drew has asserted the mindroot many a time before and this present bit of argument is contextual semantics. as are some of his criticisms of your positions.

 

I've already described a few times over the neurological why of the efferent nerves , it all jives, so long as one yas isnt trying to say the other's wrong, because to the extent that anyone's wrong its words interpreted beyond their meaning, or too far within their meaning. so dont be silly and assert false things, remove your passions from the conversation and you doofuses will see you are in agreement.

 

philosophical banter, hail taobums.

[Yae]

Alchemist posted this.

 

 

Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

04 August 2014 - 05:09 AM

(Translated from Russian, original Chinese-to-Russian translation by D.A. Artemiev.)

Lü Dongbin asked his teacher Zhongli Quan: "Why is Great Dao difficult to understand and realize?"

Zhongli Quan answered: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity; they are passed from one to another and until death the true awareness does not come; they subsequently become customary and discredit the Great Dao.

These are such methods as:
1. Fasting.
2. Starvation.
3. Gathering of qi.
4. Saliva swallowing.
5. Sexual abstinence.
6. Forgoing tastes.
7. Chan meditation.
8. Silence.
9. Awareness.
10. The Art of the inner chambers.
11. Inhaling much, exhaling little.
12. Maintaining purity.
13. Quieting (thoughts stopping).
14. Avoiding fatigue.
15. Opening of the heads crown.
16. Puckering genitals into ones body.
17. Symptoms disappearance.
18. Canons reading and recitation.
19. Outer alchemy.
20. Breathe restraining.
21. Dao Yin practices.
22. Tu Na gymnastics.
23. Gathering and replenishing.
24. Charity and donations.
25. Sacrifices.
26. Giving help.
27. Retreating into mountains.
28. Innate wisdom (analytical mind).
29. Immobility.
30. Formal maintaining of the teaching lineage.

Its not possible to fully recite all the minor schools and inconsistent methods. To the extent that (they):

Gather essence of sun and moon and accumulate Qi of Heaven and Earth.
Think endlessly, hoping to produce cinnabar.
Bend the body, exhausting it, trying to break free.
Inhale a lot, but exhale a little, in attempt to cure diseases, considering it a true embryonic breathing.
Halt thinking and forget the words, that correspond to nurturing the nature of xing, but this just points to cultivation of the true of qi contained in the Great Fundamental.
Practice the art of inner chambers, but this is just a lower cultivation method of the fate - ming.
Immobilize the body like a withered tree, and make the mind calm like cold ash - and this is a small art of spirit concentration.
What to do if in antiquity and today the men cultivating the Dao were trying hard and constantly care (only about it), but since the saliva was believed to be the cure, how was it possible to carry out the creation?
Thickening qi as the elixir is it possible to achieve its conservation? Considering liver to be a dragon, lungs to be a tiger how is it possible to unite them? Assuming Kan to be lead, and Li to be mercury is it possible to prolong the life? Based on the year seasons sought to cultivate yellow sprout.
Not letting intention to dissipate, coveted to find a Great cure.
Comparing years and matching months wasted days and got confused over time.
Without understanding Wu Xing basics how could they perceive the creation of three principles?
Acquired only a superficial and fooled the descendants. This led for the Great Dao to become disregarded over the time; (they) rose and become a custom of heresy and false teaching. In this way the original meaning of the ancient Masters was lost.

Exactly because of Dao were listening empty jabber and superficial teachings; pointed followers, who understood nothing, to them as secret methods of practice; passed each other forms of instruction and interpretations, but in due time decent into the netherworld, causing the hearts of men to numb with fear!

Under no circumstances wanted to cultivate and fulfill the Great Dao, outshone their contemporaries, only cared about the happiness and avoidance of failures, did not believe in innermost secrets and only multiplied the wealth and neglected their fate, thus heading to turn into devils (ghost)!

 

To name a few that are present in TY:

 

5. Sexual abstinence.

10. The Art of the inner chambers.

12. Maintaining purity.

13. Quieting (thoughts stopping).

23. Gathering and replenishing.

29. Immobility.

[Yae]

"so dont be silly and assert false things, remove your passions from the conversation and you doofuses will see you are in agreement.

 

One says TY is right, one say it's wrong, that is disagreement.

 

It's also being argued whether it's real Neidan capable of cultivating yuanshen.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Bluemind

[Daeluin]

I appreciate the essence which opendao is trying to caution about. And yet I do not believe there is one right way. I've seen a person say it is possible to separate the essence from the fluid (though I don't know of methods), and I've heard the same person evolve to stress that one harvests without harvesting.

 

Many many methods. It is up to us to follow the best method for our current stage, which might be a temporary correct method at that time and might become a non-optimal method as we evolve to new stages. Nothing is fixed.

 

drew seems content on his fixation with this particular path - that is his choice. It is up to him to find a way to bring that to fruition or not. Beating home the potential for it to be incorrect or harmful if used incorrectly is more likely to result in him attaching to this path even more tightly, so I think this type of forceful discussion is running to a counter-purpose.

 

Others have had many opportunities to read the different perspectives and hopefully come to the conclusion they need to find the answers that are right for their own path. If the polarization continue this thread may just end up in the pit.

 

It is natural for the truth to be hidden within layers of noise, and I doubt this can be changed at this period of society's evolution into widespread sharing of information. The clarity is there for those who can draw it out.

[opendao]

I have a question. Am I correct that physical immortality is not a goal of Neidan, but is theoretically possible?

yes

But if a person has merged ming and xing, reaching the Earth Immortal stage, how is it even possible to die of old age?

there is no such possibility

 

If a person has enough yuan qi, how could they ever die "of natural causes"?

 

dixian still has a body, so the body can be potentially destroyed from the outside (war, earth quack etc)

 

How long would an Earthly Immortal live, if they didn't continue on in the practice to eventually transcend the physical like Bodhidharma?

 

as long as "Heaven and Earth live". That's why it's not really an immortality, and many teachers of the past insisted that people have "to learn celestial immortality only", meaning that dixian is just a sign on the way, not a destination.

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[joeblast]

One says TY is right, one say it's wrong, that is disagreement.

 

It's also being argued whether it's real Neidan capable of cultivating yuanshen.

you're not certain of what's being argued about either

[Yae]

yes

there is no such possibility

 

 

dixian still has a body, so the body can be potentially destroyed from the outside (war, earth quack etc)

 

 

as long as "Heaven and Earth live". That's why it's not really an immortality, and many teachers of the past insisted that people have "to learn celestial immortality only", meaning that dixian is just a sign on the way, not a destination.

 

Oh ok thanks. When I first read "theoretically possible" with true Neidan, I took it to mean that people don't actually pursue it even though they could. But it's more like one of the "flowers along the road" that are signs of progress but not actually the aim.

 

Amazing.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Bluemind

[Brian]

I'm curious -- which calendar-year marks the transition-point between old-age BS and new-age BS? Does the dating process apply only to an original document or conceptual expression, or do later translations, interpretations & commentaries warrant the same demarcation?

 

Just wondering...

[Yae]

I'm curious -- which calendar-year marks the transition-point between old-age BS and new-age BS? Does the dating process apply only to an original document or conceptual expression, or do later translations, interpretations & commentaries warrant the same demarcation?

 

Just wondering...

 

Happy 4000th post Brian

 

And who could possibly know enough to do accurate labeling? Hmmm... You?