Neidan: Refilling yuanjingqi, building the foundation

[Daeluin]

It cannot? And you know how.... wait, who's projecting omnipotence?

You speak of groping in the dark while I speak of evolving.

You speak of one absolute route, but I'm saying there are different ways to see it.

So different they wouldn't seem like Neidan at all, though they do the same thing ultimately.

 

The spiritual paradigm shift you do not see coming is not one that may be predicted by clinging to rigid frameworks.

 

I feel you are trying to tell "Columbus" the world is flat, that he is blind. Maybe you're right.

 

I like to allow possibility. But I certainly don't know anything.

[Daeluin]

Hmmm.... I wonder what methods the spiritual turtle from Opening the Dragon Gate used.

[Daeluin]

western side, eastern side... the route is one, and it can not be discovered just by blindly trials, even during 1000 reincarnations. That's what I'm talking about, but you prefer to teach others how to wait, tolerate and find calmness in their destinies, predefined by previous wrong deeds. How about "my fate is not in Heaven"?

 

Yes, I believe the shape of one destiny is predefined by past doings. Both "wrong" and "right," "good" and "bad." But perhaps the unravelling of these twists is the most direct method of Neidan, and the only one that matters. I believe that "fate" is how gravity of life may draw out one's energies into creation at the expense of one's life. Conversely "destiny" is where one becomes accountable for their past, aims at the tao and gives answer to where one is led with unwavering equanimity - the necessary intention and sincerity required for this naturally influence alchemical reactions without needing to understand them.

 

And to not derail too much, from what I've read on Neidan, this is how one builds the foundation - by allowing it to return and guarding it.

 

In the expression One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier, what is important is the word "One." Guarding the Center and Embracing Unity means guarding the One Opening. In all the ten thousand scrolls of the writings on the Elixir, nothing is more important than guarding Unity. When you are able to comprehend Unity, all pursuits are concluded. Therefore the word "One" refers to what one concentrates on and to what one guards in a state of quiescence. - Wang Mu's Foundations of Inner Alchemy, Pregadio, An Anonymous Master

 

And to be clearer, this quote is referenced at the very beginning under the section title: 1. Main Points in the Practice of "Laying the Foundations"

 

The Opening (qiao)

 

The first step of the practice is "guarding the Opening" (shouqiao). This step is also called "guarding Unity" (shouyi) and "guarding the Center" (shouzhong).

Edited January 19, 2015 by Daeluin

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Brian]

 

You obviously mean persons who are inable to understand instructions which are written down as clearly, perfectly explained and easily to understand like a recipe in a cooking book...?

Maybe these persons need a COOK to explain to them the recipes in a cook book too before they are able to apply them correctly?

<snip>

I take it you have never had the privilege of visiting a top-notch culinary school.

[joeblast]

I couldnt even find a good "get the f#k out of hell's kitchen" for that, ramsay's too much of a bastard

[opendao]

I was told years ago that your teacher would look younger and younger.

How about some before / after photos of him or other progressed members

to prove your claims and to prove that you have actually the right to show up as you guys do!

 

All your questions can be answered positively and you think in a proper direction, but to get proofs you need to turn off the computer and travel far for a long time.

 

To get back to the topic, what you described as your experience has really nothing in common with the alchemy process, you witnessed a very common phenomena, and it can be defined as "Ming raises on its own towards Xing if Xing is developed enough", but it has no relation to the Xing and Ming merging into One. Alas. So all your theory about Xinggong only cannot be supported by your own experience. Think a bit, the answer is very simple, what "ming raises" really means and why Neidan goes in an opposite direction.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[opendao]

The more I learn, the more complicated things seem to get...

 

Could you please confirm if the following model is true or false:

 

The seat of Xing (spirit) is in the heart, its cavity is in the brain, it expresses (leaks out) through the eyes.

The seat of Ming (vitality) is between the kidneys, its cavity is in the lower abdomen, it expresses (leaks out) through the genitals.

 

it's a very external, "corporal", postheaven view. For Neidan we need to understand that Xing is Spirit-Shen and "innate nature" associated with the heart-Xin. Ming is Yuan Qi (preheaven!) and associated with Kidneys (not physical, but an organ in TCM).

[Wells]

.

Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[voidisyinyang]

qigong master CL named his son Ming -

 

http://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature

 

Uploaded by
Fabrizio Pregadio

 

long article on ming

[Yae]

 

qigong master CL named his son Ming -

 

http://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature

 

Uploaded by

Fabrizio Pregadio

 

long article on ming

I was going to say that's awesome, but isn't Ming the yin/feminine? But if Neidan is about building the 100% yang body then neither would be. Maybe this reasoning is... Not helpful. Great name regardless.

[soaring crane]

 

qigong master CL named his son Ming -

 

http://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature

 

Uploaded by

Fabrizio Pregadio

 

long article on ming

 

wow, he's right up the road from me. Thanks for the link :-)

 

"Fabrizio Pregadio is Guest Professor of Daoist Anthropology at the Friedrich-Alexander-Universität Erlangen-Nürnberg, Germany"

[voidisyinyang]

I was going to say that's awesome, but isn't Ming the yin/feminine? But if Neidan is about building the 100% yang body then neither would be. Maybe this reasoning is... Not helpful. Great name regardless.

 

Alchemically Ming is yang. One of the warehouse owners where I work at is named Changming - a man - so I think names can go either way. there are female Chunyi names for example.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[voidisyinyang]

yeah you're correct on one level but did you read the link I gave? I was quoting from that paper on Ming.

 

http://www.academia.edu/211919/Chapters_on_Awakening_to_the_Real_A_Song_Dynasty_Classic_of_Inner_Alchemy_Attributed_to_Zhang_Boduan_ca._983-1081_._B.C._Asian_Review_12_Spring_2000_1-40

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/147160520/An-Annotated-Translation-and-Study-of-Chapters-on-Awakening-to-the-Real-Wuzhen-Pian-Paul-B-M-Crowe#scribd

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcircle.ubc.ca%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F2429%2F7625%2Fubc_1998-0015.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&ei=pQrAVIi1Fc2ANtaigIAG&usg=AFQjCNFee888w6Ku_tZODbduYtnfjgdm9A&sig2=0pMz2LtfnNqpE0gNLBcvIw&bvm=bv.84116906,d.eXY

 

last one a pdf link.

 

so a few more links to consider.

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[blue eyed snake]

even though some parts of this discussion are going over my head,

other parts I find very interesting.

Could someone please inform me about the meaning of the word/abbreviation SHO?

 

thanks

[Yae]

Are you joking...?!

 

You can't expect that people read whole books because iyo some argument in these might prove your point and disprove theirs.

 

Arguments presented condensed in a coherent and abridged giving of evidence in a logical line of argument is appreciated.

Quoting with linking to resources is appreciated.

 

That's the way I do it.

 

 

I did a Command+F search on that article and found in mentioned in a footnote:

 

"...Read in this light, the title of the Xingming guizhi refers to the

oneness of xing (yin) and ming (yang)."

 

yerp

 

(FP's paper on ming. this https://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_%E5%91%BD_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_%E6%80%A7_or_Human_Nature)

Edited January 21, 2015 by Bluemind

[Wells]

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Edited February 11, 2015 by ZOOM

[voidisyinyang]

Thanks!

Well, this is like assuming that heaven is yin and earth is yang...

 

If you don't read the paper you can't understand the context for why Ming is yang.

 

I gave the other links since I am currently reading those. They all reinforce each other.

 

A lot of people take what I call the "Mall Science" position on the internet which I jokingly call being a boy with your mom at the Mall and crying over and over that you are not getting what you want and so science is only when a product is presented that is already mass produced and therefore true. haha.

 

Nope - willful ignorance is not the way to go on this stuff.

 

To keep on topic though -

 

The cavity of prenatal vitality is the pineal gland while the cavity of spirit is the heart but as Taoist Yoga says eternal nature as xing descends as yin energy - yin fire - why? Because it is still "Negative spirit" before the elixir is produced. So then when the Emptiness is focused on this causes the prenatal vitality or yuan qi to join up with the negative spirit to make the energy going out of the eyes to be yang as spirit-vitality.

 

But the problem is any thought that is evil causes the prenatal vitality to run the wrong way - and this is the secret "yang" in the Ming that is normally wasted for reproductive. So you focus on the Emptiness to then store up that yang in the Ming.

 

There is a "sea of chi" under the lower tan tien - but in actuality that is yin jing energy that is then triggered by the cavity of prenatal vitality in the brain to deconvert the sea of chi into fluid.

 

So the secret is to the opposite - by focusing on the Emptiness then, as I said, the yuan qi of the pineal gland connects with the heart fire which then descends via the Emptiness to then ionize and sublimate the sea of chi - now turned into the "cavity of spirit-vitality" as the lower tan tin - no longer yin jing but now yang jing or yin chi energy.

 

So then ideally you keep that up, build up the yin chi based on that secret of yang within it - as it is sublimated via the quick fire, deep fast breathing from standing active horse stance - then it goes up to the pineal gland where more yuan qi converts more of the yin jing into more yang qi and so that is how the cycle of energy builds up.

 

So then when the lower tan tien is filled then you access the Tai Chi as the Cavity of Original Spirit. But that is still just the first half of the training - to "lay the foundation" - so that is still lunar shen energy - or yin shen energy. So then you have to do more small universe as immortal breathing with the yuan qi in one direction while the yang qi as yin shen in the other direction. That is what then creates the Ming as Yang - the golden seed or whatever in the lower tan tien. Of course I never got that close in practice so .... but I did get to the Tai Chi experience once.

[Yae]

Innersound, some Neidan practitioners are saying that TY is meant to be a companion manual to the teachings and methods that were guarded secrets but are now taught openly but only in person.

 

They're also saying that the translators (Pregadio for one, and maybe the TY translator but I don't claim to know in his case) are helpful but should be taken with a grain of salt because they haven't actually learned the and applied the aforementioned practices. Pregadio is an anthropology professor. So the point is that the translations would be more accurate if guided by actual experience with the topics.

 

And also I'm still concerned about the truth of your idea that focusing on the emptiness is enough to cultivate the yuanshen. I'm wondering what CL will say.

 

There's a free SFQ talk tonight so I could send it as a public question. It seems more like a private question considering the general audience but I really want to ask.

[voidisyinyang]

Innersound, some Neidan practitioners are saying that TY is meant to be a companion manual to the teachings and methods that were guarded secrets but are now taught openly but only in person.

 

They're also saying that the translators (Pregadio for one, and maybe the TY translator but I don't claim to know in his case) are helpful but should be taken with a grain of salt because they haven't actually learned the and applied the aforementioned practices. Pregadio is an anthropology professor. So the point is that the translations would be more accurate if guided by actual experience with the topics.

 

And also I'm still concerned about the truth of your idea that focusing on the emptiness is enough to cultivate the yuanshen. I'm wondering what CL will say.

 

There's a free SFQ talk tonight so I could send it as a public question. It seems more like a private question considering the general audience but I really want to ask.

 

I never said "focusing on the emptiness is enough to cultivate the yuanshen."

 

On the contrary, Taoist Yoga book emphasizes you need the quick fire focus to drive up the jing energy since fire-spirit is not strong enough on its own.

 

I'm aware of people hissy-fitting over the Taoist Yoga book but there has yet to be any particular evidence used against it. I have searched for any evidence and presented what I could find despite the people raising the accusation not giving their own evidence. I know that the "school" that claims Taoist Yoga is just an incomplete text of a later branch of it - well someone else pointed out on this site that actually a different school - the Longmen - was more of an influence on the Taoist Yoga book.

 

As for needing a personal teacher - well Chunyi is a personal teacher.

 

For example on that "Single Yang" website they make a complaint against qigong masters doing lots of successful healing because those masters burn up their energy and so despite doing all that healing their skin becomes withered.

 

Well you know as well as I do that Chunyi's skin is not withered and prematurely wrinkled.

 

And besides - as I've said - he plans on continuing his work on the golden immortal yang shen after he has built up enough good deeds and virtue, etc. That's even described in the Taoist Yoga book - you make a yang shen and then you go out into the world and do good deeds as a healer.

 

I secretly wondered - what if Chunyi's body is his yang shen while he actual physical body is still in a cave in China. haha.

 

But anyway it's an interesting question since - Taoist Yoga teaches for a person's yang shen to go out into the world to do healings and for their to be multiple yang shens - and if so all the same form? Who knows. At that level there could be some kind of weird merger of who people really are.

 

For example my qigong friend here was at the Global SFQ retreat and someone claimed they saw Boddhisattva spirits in the room and so my friend asked qigong master Jim Nance if this was true and he confirmed it was. And so then when I attended a Level 3 class the next year then Chunyi said the same thing - that his ancient spirit masters had been called in and were actually hovering outside the building.

 

I mean it could obviously be easy to fake something like that but as I personally saw Chunyi creating multiple yin spirits to heal people and also I saw dead people as ghosts hovering around Chunyi and he confirmed that's what they were and that he was healing them - and so for Chunyi to have a direct contact with master healing spirits that help him out - it seems to beg the question as to the nature of his own physical body.

 

But yeah just to corroborate what I wrote above - I'm not just relying on Taoist Yoga:

 

I quote http://www.scribd.com/doc/147160520/An-Annotated-Translation-and-Study-of-Chapters-on-Awakening-to-the-Real-Wuzhen-Pian-Paul-B-M-Crowe#scribd

 

"True Lead" represents yang within yin...as metal within water. And so that is how Ming is Yang - it is the "True Lead" within the jing energy.

 

Also I just listened to Chunyi today from his healing connection podcast and he answered someone's question about not achieving the "breakthrough" - piercing the Mysterious Valley so to speak - the Tai Chi, etc. and Chunyi said for a long time he felt the same way but then he "read more" and practiced more. So even Chunyi relied on studying texts and reading - and he said that in his previous podcast also - how a person could read and study this subject a lot. But instead of himself spreading information he is focused on doing healing.

 

Chunyi said at the beginning of the training to do 3 times as much active exercise standing then 1 ratio of sitting meditation.

 

So that is like the Wang Mu "Single Yang" school - emphasizing training the Ming at first.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[voidisyinyang]

Basically what you do is if there is any quivering then you do horse stance with thighs parallel to the ground - after a minute - keep arms raised out in thunder palms or sword fingers - and then the deep quick breathing kicks in and this sublimates and purifies the energy. So with the thighs parallel - that is a very quick way to transmute the energy again. Sublimate in the morning, purifying in the evening and then do the Emptiness meditation at midnight.

 

As you build up yin chi then it is lost more easily from other people, etc. so then keep at it doing the day also - a good steep horse stance can just take a minute to sublimate as quick fire.