Astrological Musings

[Nungali]

[Just some aside wild speculations here ... if there was a pre Indian Iranian ( sorry ... a pre Vedic / Avestan ) shared culture / civilisation (see the link I gave on 'zoroastrian astrology' ... the ' Magi' ) it seems to relate to the BMAC area - precursor to the 'Oxus Civilization' ... then its location and trade links included 'China' (as known today - also the trade routes into China - the postulated empire extended north beyond Samarkand, one of the main northern routes, up into the valleys and head waters of the Oxus River {now shown on maps as the Amu Darya River} accessing middle trade routes and down to and over the Hindu Kush accessing the trade routes down into the Indus ... the 'silk road' may have been in existence for a very long time before hand) and any postulate precursor astrology originating there (and later influencing the Sumerians, etc.) would have contained or incorporated or even originated from a Chinese system .

 

( I had a picture of an ancient Oxus River civilisation ring which they believe to have something like very early Chinese type characters or symbols on it ... cant seel to find that today ... ) ]

Edited August 19, 2014 by Nungali

[zanshin]

Per poll results- 8 Cardinal signs, 8 Fixed, 11 Mutable.

[Michael Sternbach]

The Golden Dawn used it. Its in the relevant G.D. Papers. ; Book T - The Tarot (showing attributions to its zodiac - including constellations off the zodiacal ecliptic), 'The Tree of Life as Projected in a Solid Sphere.' ; " ... the teaching assigns the commencing Point of the Zodiac to the bright star 'Regulus' which is in Leo. And it measures Right Ascension and Longitude from that point ... " [ para 2 ]

 

( Leo seems a good choice mystically as well , it is a Solar order with a Solar focus ... and Heliocentric ) .

 

Thanks Nungali, I will look into the Golden Dawn's ideas. The "royal star" Regulus is actually one of the ancients' "four pillars" - the other three being Aldebaran, Antares and Fomalhaut. Once Aldebaran (at the time when he marked the vernal equinox) was considered foremost. But ancient Greek star catalogues start with Leo.

 

Leo as the first sign makes sense also insofar it is "ruled" by the Sun which in turn corresponds with the number 1, numerologically. Rather than losing many more words on this, let me present the traditional "domicile scheme."

 

 

Source: http://houseofdaedalus.blogspot.ch/2012/06/astrological-body-part-one-planets-and_25.html

 

That being said, it's important to bear in mind (as always when we are dealing with things metaphysical) there are various equally valid perspectives, depending on the context. Actually, I believe that the three fire signs Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius can each be seen as origins of the zodiac (which is circular anyway). I could say more about this and may indeed do so in a subsequent post.

 

One could use Spica as well.

 

I agree, Spica could be considered as a marker in a Sidereal zodiac, too.

 

I find it interesting to look at all these possibilities, but personally I use only the Tropical zodiac, due to the considerations given in my previous post, as well as based on my practical experience; again, I may further elaborate on this still.

 

That being said, my thought is that, much like the planets are "rulers" of zodiacal signs, the signs could at once be "ruled" by those fixed stars which belong to their corresponding constellations. Much like the planets, the stars move in and out of the signs, albeit, of course, at a much slower rate.

 

Using the stars off the ecliptic or within the zodiac is a long used practice.

 

Yes - as we saw, individual stars can actually be used regardless of the particular kind of zodiac being employed.

 

That some Aboriginal groups have myths about asterisms told in stories - in this case the stars we know as Scorpio - and the elements in those stories describe the things, traits and processes that many ascribe to Scorpio.

 

- I am running off memory here ... but, in essence ( and it may lack the appropriate 'cultural impact' * )

 

There was a young boy that had an older and very cheeky girl friend, she was a bit of a trouble maker. The old men told her to go away and leave him alone, it was time for the boys initiation into manhood. So they took him and the boys aside but the bad girl followed them to the Men's initiation ritual and hid and watched the ceremony and the circumcision ...

 

(* cultural impact ... this is more than outrageous and would warrant instant death)

 

When the men left and the boys had to stay in the circle, she waited until they fell asleep and sneaked into the circle and woke him up and wanted to know what they did to him and made him show her .

 

Becoming fascinated with the injury (it turned her on) she wanted to have sex with him with the freshly circumcised member

 

:blink: (okay its constant shocked faces in the firelight all round from now on )

 

She forced him into her and the boy screamed out with pain - awakening the guardians- they ran to the circle and saw them, the girl and boy saw them and wanted to run, but now his member had swollen inside her from the injury and they were stuck together. So she picked up the boy and he hung on around her neck and she put his legs around her waist and ran off carrying him with the men in pursuit.

 

She ran far across the desert stuck together with the boy ... to the horizon and up into the sky to get away, the men followed and threw a boomerang and throwing stick at her and .....

 

(as often happens in these stories) < freeze frame>

 

 

There they are still up there ( here they indicate the stars of Scorpio in the night sky ) the boy and girl are the two lead stars, back further are the boomerang and throwing stick and behind the men chasing them.

 

So we have , in order ; suspect sex, a bit of a trouble maker, men's business, initiation, secrecy, spying, breaking of taboos, illicit , even sado-masochistic sex, crime and punishment and a journey that ends in flight (like the Scorpio totem of the eagle ... actually keeping the Law is eagle / Mars 'business' too) . I sorta relate that to a Scorpionic story

 

Nice story... I wonder, did they let the kids hear it while the tribe was sitting around the fireplace? Be that as it may - yes, it's replete with Scorpio themes! Truly amazing. It's once again demonstrating that there is so much more to astrology than arbitrary projection of psychological contents on the sky, as some rationalistic psychologists would have us believe.

[Michael Sternbach]

I have told you that I prefer the Tropical zodiac over the Sidereal zodiac. However, I'm not a representative of esoteric dogmatism, and I am aware that usually more than one perspective has validity to it. There is always a give and take occurring between the beheld and the beholder, and much hinges on what the latter's level of perception is attuned to.

 

That being said, I will proceed to give you an empirical example why the Tropical zodiac makes more sense to me than the Sidereal zodiac. Come along with me to take a look at the chart of a mystic many of you are no doubt familiar with - in both Tropical and Sidereal format:

 

The Sleeping Prophet Edgar Cayce.

 

We start with Edgar's chart in Tropical format.

 

We see that Taurus is quite prominent; it is at the MC and has the Moon in it, besides Neptune and Pluto. Due to this emphasis, this sign's ruler or dispositor will be expected to be of great influence in the native's life.

The planet which rules Taurus is Venus; she is in quite a significant position herself. She is in an angular house and in her exaltation in Pisces. Furthermore, she is in a stellium together with Mercury, Saturn and the Ascending Node. The Sun is in Pisces, too.

This emphasis on Pisces seems strongly in line with Cayce being not only a psychic but also so strongly a proponent of a Christian kind of spirituality. This is evident from his biography as well as from so many readings he gave, regarding their content as well as their “Biblical” language.

 

Esoterically, Christianity is seen as belonging to Pisces, Jesus Christ is widely regarded as the avatar of the Pisces age.

Talking now specifically about Venus in Pisces, where this planet is "exalted", therefore expected to manifest herself in particularly notable and sophisticated ways. Indeed, Cayce was continuously emphasizing Love - as understood in a Christian framework. His psychic activity was evolving around this. He was endeavouring to guide and heal people by his channelled advice, in accordance with Universal Love.

Venus and Neptune in mutual reception (for non-astrologers reading this: they are in each other's sign) highlights the aforesaid very nicely.

A few quotes may illustrate how Cayce was inspired by his Venus in Pisces in his philosophy of life:

Tips for a long life: Keep sweet, keep friendly, keep loving, if ye would keep young.

 

The purpose of the heart is to know yourself to be yourself and yet one with God.

Okay, now to Sidereal Cayce.



For zodiacal adjustment to precession, I choose Lahiri which is the most widely used ayanamsa by contemporary Vedic astrologers since it was declared as the official one by the Indian government for purposes of calendar calculation. There are a number of others preferred by various astrologers, but the differences are not that big and presumably don't make any difference for our purposes here.

Now, the MC and the Moon (along with Neptune) are all in Aries. This would suit an athlete, a soldier, an entrepreneur - a kind of personality with an outwardly or physically bound activity. Their ruler is Mars. His placement in Sagittarius would reinforce the planet's fiery nature.

 

Sorry, it's hard for me to say much more.

Having read a quite a few books about Cayce, this very dynamic Mars placement doesn't seem to be in line with the “Sleeping Prophet's” biographical data.

Of all the former Pisces placements, only the Sun still falls into this sign; he is in a succedent house, and not particularly well connected by aspects, either.

 

Feel free to share your thoughts and observations on this.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

yes its interesting, as I said, I do use both (and my wilder sidereal charts show the four ruling stars, other stars, maps of the constellations, usually in silver on a matt black background and use sign and planet colour schemes or collaged actual pics of the planets, I used US Naval Observatory site for planetary position - the NASA info- and have worked with various zodiacs ... but that is a trip and takes time and artistic input, and cant be sourced by one computer programme).

 

IMO its how we look at a chart ... even with the tropical one I can see it differently to you and pull in a whole range of other associations and show how IMO the sidereal one is more valid ( dont worry, I wont ... we could do that forever ... in this case its a case of interpretation )

 

IMO planetary relationships are the main indicator and that doesnt change with a conversion to Sidereal. (The lower tables of both charts, ) its something else that changes

 

I havent gone further with this because I wanted an answer on this first;

 

Simpler than the above ... ( yep I am still wondering) ... do people see me as a Gemini or Cancer Sun sign

[Nungali]

Thanks Nungali, I will look into the Golden Dawn's ideas. The "royal star" Regulus is actually one of the ancients' "four pillars" - the other three being Aldebaran, Antares and Fomalhaut. Once Aldebaran (at the time when he marked the vernal equinox) was considered foremost. But ancient Greek star catalogues start with Leo.

 

Got some spare time have you ?

 

Just be ready for the GD Solar aspect ... which makes the ecliptic not angled at 23 deg to the CE and the CP relating to the Suns axial extension, which makes the new ecliptic include non zodiacal constellations. And when you get to the formulas of Draco ... looping or jumping ....

 

Actually, it might be easier to just start at Regulus and calculate 12 equal segments of 30 degrees around the ecliptic and watch what happens - first

[Michael Sternbach]

yes its interesting, as I said, I do use both (and my wilder sidereal charts show the four ruling stars, other stars, maps of the constellations, usually in silver on a matt black background and use sign and planet colour schemes or collaged actual pics of the planets, I used US Naval Observatory site for planetary position - the NASA info- and have worked with various zodiacs ... but that is a trip and takes time and artistic input, and cant be sourced by one computer programme).

 

I like the artistic approach you are taking toward horoscope charts. And I'm quite familiar myself with the problem of not getting everything out of a chart that I am interested in by using only one computer programme.

 

IMO its how we look at a chart ... even with the tropical one I can see it differently to you and pull in a whole range of other associations and show how IMO the sidereal one is more valid ( dont worry, I wont ... we could do that forever ... in this case its a case of interpretation )

 

I'm not worried about that - but I agree, we could do this forever and a day (to be exact). And yes, astrological interpretation surely always involves some subjectivity. Otherwise we could let computers do ALL the work for us. But you can't take the human factor out the equation, albeit that's what some astrologers are trying to do, it seems, You can't take it out of quantum physics either, btw.

 

IMO planetary relationships are the main indicator and that doesnt change with a conversion to Sidereal. (The lower tables of both charts, ) its something else that changes

 

That's right. One thing that changes is the planetary dispositors in a given chart. That's why in one of the sample charts above, Venus is prevalent, in the other Mars. (I know two astrologers who try to circumvent this type of problem by using elements from both Tropical and Sidereal in one and the same delineation, but that's mixing apples with pears, imo.)

 

I havent gone further with this because I wanted an answer on this first;

 

Simpler than the above ... ( yep I am still wondering) ... do people see me as a Gemini or Cancer Sun sign

 

Well, I have thought about it and personally, I'd see you rather as a Cancer Sun sign.

 

Got some spare time have you ?

 

For this kind of things, ALWAYS.

 

Just be ready for the GD Solar aspect ... which makes the ecliptic not angled at 23 deg to the CE and the CP relating to the Suns axial extension, which makes the new ecliptic include non zodiacal constellations. And when you get to the formulas of Draco ... looping or jumping ....

 

Not quite sure what you're talking about, but I'll read your further posts with interest.

 

Actually, it might be easier to just start at Regulus and calculate 12 equal segments of 30 degrees around the ecliptic and watch what happens - first

 

Are you talking about setting Regulus at 0° Leo? Is this what the Golden Dawn was doing?

[Protector]

Double fish

[Nungali]

I like the artistic approach you are taking toward horoscope charts. And I'm quite familiar myself with the problem of not getting everything out of a chart that I am interested in by using only one computer programme.

 

 

I'm not worried about that - but I agree, we could do this forever and a day (to be exact). And yes, astrological interpretation surely always involves some subjectivity. Otherwise we could let computers do ALL the work for us. But you can't take the human factor out the equation, albeit that's what some astrologers are trying to do, it seems, You can't take it out of quantum physics either, btw.

 

 

That's right. One thing that changes is the planetary dispositors in a given chart. That's why in one of the sample charts above, Venus is prevalent, in the other Mars. (I know two astrologers who try to circumvent this type of problem by using elements from both Tropical and Sidereal in one and the same delineation, but that's mixing apples with pears, imo.)

 

I never heard of that ! ... dont like the sound of it much.

 

Well, I have thought about it and personally, I'd see you rather as a Cancer Sun sign.

Ha ha ...you dont count , because you are 'compromised' by your knowledge of celestial mechanics ... but you are the only one that answered , so;

 

Tropical it is Cancer Sun / Leo Moon ... Sidereal it is Gemini Sun / Cancer Moon. I feel that the first combo is my normal outward combination what most see , experience or expect from me ... this comes from a setting of seeing my planetary arrangement in a framework of signs set on and extended from the E. P. The second I see as my internal and shared intimately side. Either way, regardless , I cant 'escape' the Cancerian energy ... both ranges of people detect it as they either relate to me via Sun or Moon.

 

For this kind of things, ALWAYS.

 

 

Not quite sure what you're talking about, but I'll read your further posts with interest.

 

Heliocentric zodiac ? : " (Note by SRMD ) It represents the Heavens polarised on the plane of the Ecliptic, not on the plane of the Equator of our Earth, so that its North Pole is the veritable North Pole of our heavens and not merely that part of them to which the North Pole of our earth now points."

 

then there is a diagram

 

 

Are you talking about setting Regulus at 0° Leo? Is this what the Golden Dawn was doing?

 

Yes, thats what I did. I dont actually know what the hell they were doing at times ... they seem to have started to set up a system and then .... I have no idea what they actually did with it ... perhaps as modern astrology became pop their members seem to have thrown it out the window and adopted the new astrology ? ... apparently their system has value according to Regardie, especially in relation to 'Secret Doctrine' - Blavatsky Vol II - but I haven't cross checked that.

 

The Draco stuff is all intertwined with Tarot aces, tattwa tides, parts of Draco, etc ....

 

Then I hit a stage of practicality .

 

Now I work differently , I developed an astrological model based on the Tree of Life ... which I realised it didnt really work when applied to the individual psyche, so I changed it (outlined above). When I realised the association of Mercury Venus Mars with the 3 basic drives of psychology, that set the pattern.

 

Now , aside from mild curiosity, I only use things that have a practical and meaningful application.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

I never heard of that ! ... dont like the sound of it much.

 

Neither do I.

 

I know one astrologer who is using one of the Sidereal zodiacs and says that it's in fact identical with the Tropical zodiac; she thinks that the Tropicalists got it all wrong, what they see as characteristic of Aries would really belong to (Sidereal) Pisces etc. Neptune, the Piscean planet, was as a deity causing violent storms in mythology, that's why he is a good match for Tropical Aries (normally the domicile of ferocious Mars), and so on. I told her (on another forum) that, imo, she is twisting what's real like a pretzel - she did feel quite insulted. It lead to a hot debate, and my Cayce example above is actually a revised version of one of my replies to her.

 

I have met another astrologer in virtual space who opts for the reverse: Using Sidereal signs but assigning them the Tropical dignities, so Sidereal Pisces is ruled by Mars which normally belongs to Aries etc.

 

"Can't you see, this is a land of confusion..." Not really worth going into this kind of balancing act further.

 

Ha ha ...you dont count , because you are 'compromised' by your knowledge of celestial mechanics ... but you are the only one that answered , so;

 

Ah, caught in the act! But it's actually what I honestly feel from you. Not meant to deny that "internally" you may be a quicksilver Gemini Sun sign, though.

 

Heliocentric zodiac ? : " (Note by SRMD ) It represents the Heavens polarised on the plane of the Ecliptic, not on the plane of the Equator of our Earth, so that its North Pole is the veritable North Pole of our heavens and not merely that part of them to which the North Pole of our earth now points."

 

then there is a diagram

 

 

Aha, that's what you mean... Yes, Draco constellation is at the pole of the ecliptic which of course is the orbit of the Earth around the Sun if looked at heliocentrically. It's also what the Earth axis revolves around due to precession (besides the stars' proper motion), so that the pole stars rotate over long time periods. Right now Alpha Ursae Minoris is the closest bright star to the North Pole and will be there precisely around the year 2100 which I see as an important marker for the commencement of the New Age. However, Gamma Cephei will take its place by the year 3000, Iota Cephei around 5200, and Deneb in 10'000 AD.

 

But the North pole of the ecliptic (a.k.a. zodiac) permanently coincides with the Cat's Eye Nebula in Draco which carries the number NGC 6543 - note the four consecutive numbers! Astronomically, it has other remarkable traits as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Eye_Nebula

 

Interesting, isn't it?

 

Yes, thats what I did. I dont actually know what the hell they were doing at times ... they seem to have started to set up a system and then .... I have no idea what they actually did with it ... perhaps as modern astrology became pop their members seem to have thrown it out the window and adopted the new astrology ? ... apparently their system has value according to Regardie, especially in relation to 'Secret Doctrine' - Blavatsky Vol II - but I haven't cross checked that.

 

Blavatsky said that once Leo was considered the first sign rather than Aries which is actually in accordance with the Greek star catalogues I mentioned above.

 

Now I work differently , I developed an astrological model based on the Tree of Life ... which I realised it didnt really work when applied to the individual psyche, so I changed it (outlined above). When I realised the association of Mercury Venus Mars with the 3 basic drives of psychology, that set the pattern.

 

This makes sense to me insofar these three planets are considered the most personal ones in astrology (besides the Luminaries which are not really planets, of course).

 

Now , aside from mild curiosity, I only use things that have a practical and meaningful application.

 

Good boy. (Edit: Assuming that you're a male.)

 

Great spiritual masters advice us to only assimilate what holds true according to our own intuition and experience.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

Nungali,

 

Even though the Golden Dawn was seeing Leo as the beginning of the zodiac, I don't think they set Regulus at 0° of it. According to a remark I read somewhere, they thought he is at 5° Leo. I have met a Sidereal astrologer in virtual space who sets him at about 6° Leo. I guess that 0° Leo would lead to an ayanamsa that doesn't look quite right, overall.

[ViscountValmont]

Wow, my chart is scary close to Cayce's (Tropical). My inner planets, Sun, Moon, Mercury and Mars all the same. Only Ascendant and Venus are different- Libra and Aquarius, respectively.

 

 

 

Edit: Also, my outer planets may also be coincidentally the same as well, but I don't recall their placement.

Edited August 27, 2014 by ViscountValmont

[Michael Sternbach]

ViscountValmont,

 

As we have privately agreed, I'm pleased to present your natal chart here.

 

 

Yes, there are obvious similarities with Cayce's chart - even though among the more personal planets, not only Venus but also Mars is in a different sign. On the other hand, there are parallels revealed only by a somewhat closer look such as a prevalence of trines, squares and conjunctions.

 

All the planets except the Moon are under the horizon which means that the internal life is strongly emphasized. Mercury in Pisces in close conjunction with the Sun supports the subjective outlook. They're in the fifth house which stands (among other things) for creativity; this combination speaks for vivid imagination and dreams expressed in art. Cinematography would be a good match, but of course there are many possibilities for this configuration to be manifested. The squares to Uranus in Sagittarius will provide inspiration but could contribute to a lack of focus, occasionally. However, Saturn's trines balance this, providing structure and stability. Saturn is retrograde in Scorpio, so he is ever on guard to keep subconscious forces from overwhelming the conscious personality. Jupiter and Neptune, the two rulers of Pisces, being in Capricorn underlines the Saturnian stronghold. (We see parallels in Cayce's chart where Saturn is linked to the Sun by conjunction, and Jupiter is in Capricorn, too. Moreover, Jupiter is connected with Neptune in another Earth sign by trine.) Their placement in the 3rd house stands for the pursuit of vast esoteric/spiritual knowledge. The Ascending Node in Gemini and the 8th house (things occult) reflect this on yet another level.

 

Pluto and Mars in their domicile Scorpio in the 1st house speak for an assertive personality. Saturn in conjunction with Mars gives endurance and self-discipline and helps to keep Mars from overacting. Some kind of martial arts training, likely of the internal variety, would seem to be a good idea. Most of the personal planets in the Western hemisphere along with Libra rising make for an orientation towards others - perhaps not to the extent we see in Cayce, but notably enough. Especially the Taurus Moon in the 7th house supports this, seeking stability and reliability in close relationships. This may be at odds with the Moon's dispositor Venus in Aquarius - albeit the quintile (not shown) between the two should offset this to some degree. Nonetheless, there could well be some noted conflict between the desire for harmonious togetherness as opposed to the urge for freedom and individualism. The squares between Venus and Mars/Saturn are suggesting this, too. Pluto in close opposition to the Moon can lead to emotional upheavals in this context, likely biographically founded in the relationship to the mother. A certain need for balance here.

 

In a nutshell, I see you as a strongly individualistic and but structured personality with pronounced esoteric and aesthetic inclinations.

 

As I know virtually nothing about you, I'm looking forward to your feedback.

 

Michael

[Nungali]

Nungali,

 

Even though the Golden Dawn was seeing Leo as the beginning of the zodiac, I don't think they set Regulus at 0° of it. According to a remark I read somewhere, they thought he is at 5° Leo. I have met a Sidereal astrologer in virtual space who sets him at about 6° Leo. I guess that 0° Leo would lead to an ayanamsa that doesn't look quite right, overall.

 

I'm never sure what those guys did ... but they did write " ... the teaching assigns the commencing Point of the Zodiac to the bright star 'Regulus' which is in Leo. And it measures Right Ascension and Longitude from that point ... "

 

One assumes the zodiac 'comencing point' is at 0 deg. ? However, it has been my contention that the correct phrase should be 'set at ' Regulus ... then it really doesnt matter what degree you assign to Regulus ... when I played with it I (some time back, so running on memory here) I started with Regulus at x deg Leo , used a 30 degree template and went around until the asterisms got the best fit in the segments and then read the degree off that where Regulus sat and then set it there ... I thought it was around 10 degrees ??? One could even set it at 15 ... being 'The heart of the Lion'.

 

if I remember rightly... Taurus was a bit of a problem .... fitting that asterism into the template, its quiet long in shape

[Michael Sternbach]

I'm never sure what those guys did ... but they did write " ... the teaching assigns the commencing Point of the Zodiac to the bright star 'Regulus' which is in Leo. And it measures Right Ascension and Longitude from that point ... "

 

One assumes the zodiac 'comencing point' is at 0 deg. ? However, it has been my contention that the correct phrase should be 'set at ' Regulus ... then it really doesnt matter what degree you assign to Regulus ... when I played with it I (some time back, so running on memory here) I started with Regulus at x deg Leo , used a 30 degree template and went around until the asterisms got the best fit in the segments and then read the degree off that where Regulus sat and then set it there ... I thought it was around 10 degrees ??? One could even set it at 15 ... being 'The heart of the Lion'.

 

if I remember rightly... Taurus was a bit of a problem .... fitting that asterism into the template, its quiet long in shape

 

Interesting... On Skyscript, I wrote some time ago:

 

Personally, I would think of setting Regulus at 15° Leo (around 0 AD, from where it has since either moved or not, depending on whether you look at the tropical or the sidereal zodiac). The royal star Regulus in the centre of Leo is also reminiscent of the Sun ruling this sign!

 

I'm not sure if somebody suggested exactly this before?

 

This was in reference to the Sun being positioned at 15° Leo in the domicile scheme shown above, of course.

 

The replies I got from two other astrologers were:

 

You do know that if Aldebaran is at 15 degrees of Taurus, that places Regulus at 5 degrees of Leo? (Regulus was never in the center of sidereal Leo.)

 

And:

 

I don't think we should expect a star to be precisely on a significant degree, and certainly not Regulus at 15 Leo, which is way out from all the main ayanamsas. The stars are rough visual markers, not definers, the zodiac must be a coherent harmonic structure or we might as well pack up and go home. I'd place Regulus around 6° Leo.

 

To be precise, I'd say 6°29' today ("fixed" stars each have their own very slight proper movement over the millenia).

 

To which I answered:

 

Well, what I suggested is a scheme that directly reflects the domicile schematic and would be oriented on Regulus rather than on Aldebaran-Antares. But I don't blame you for finding this idea too radical. It was just a thought, really. (Or it may be the the general practice in a hundred years from now. )

 

However, it looks like even the GD was using the Tropical zodiac at least additionally. For example, in the Crowley-Thoth Tarot deck, the Court Cards (other than the Princesses) are linked to the area from 10° of one sign to 10° of the next. I first thought this might have something to do with a Sidereal zodiac and ayanamsa, in some way, but it seems like it simply refers to the Tropical system, really.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Do you have much to do with the Thoth tarot ?

[Michael Sternbach]

I fell in love with the Thoth Tarot in 1988 and this was pretty much my initiation into the Occidental esoteric traditions which it refers to in so many ways. I didn't really look at it much for a long time any more, however, as there were so many other things coming my way. Until very recently - not least inspired by our conversation here regarding the GD.

 

Do you study these cards, too?

Edited August 28, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Yes, for the last 30 years or so ... including about 7 years as a public reader (in a busy market each month - phew! Glad I dont do that no more) and more in private consultation - I never claimed that I or my cards were psychic or could 'read the future' though.

 

There is so much suggested in the supplementary material (Book of Thoth) that carried over from the G.D.'s Book T; some text, but mostly tables and the astro correspondences that doesn't actually appeared to have made it into any concepts people have about the deck ... and in some cases I include the decks creator in that! He didnt care or didnt seem to use it ... or maybe just didnt write about it.

 

" initiation into the Occidental esoteric traditions which it refers to in so many ways. " ... refers to; yes ... IMO it is virtually a handbook ... an 'Occidental esoteric tradition' s 'Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy'

 

[ ED; the reason I asked was I was going to go further into that astro court card attribution; what do you think is the reason for it ? ]

Edited August 28, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

( double post ... somehow )

Edited August 28, 2014 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Yes, for the last 30 years or so ... including about 7 years as a public reader (in a busy market each month - phew! Glad I dont do that no more)

 

That's funny - did you have to wear a turban?

 

 

and more in private consultation - I never claimed that I or my cards were psychic or could 'read the future' though.

 

When I was working with patients in a psychiatric practice during six years back in the 90s, besides using Bach Flower Remedies and astrology, I was occasionally doing card readings as well. (No, I was not wearing a turban.)

 

I was using the cards rather for psychological analysis than for prognostic purposes. Even though they would often hint at future potentials or probabilities in the course of this. But some of the things they seemed to prognosticate did not come to pass.

 

"Always moving the future is." Yoda

 

 

There is so much suggested in the supplementary material (Book of Thoth) that carried over from the G.D.'s Book T; some text, but mostly tables and the astro correspondences that doesn't actually appeared to have made it into any concepts people have about the deck ... and in some cases I include the decks creator in that! He didnt care or didnt seem to use it ... or maybe just didnt write about it.

 

I find Book T constantly mentioned in connection with the Thoth Tarot. Worth taking a really close look at...

 

 

 

" initiation into the Occidental esoteric traditions which it refers to in so many ways. " ... refers to; yes ... IMO it is virtually a handbook ... an 'Occidental esoteric tradition' s 'Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy'

 

Nicely said. A handbook which includes numerology, astrology, the kabbalah, alchemy, magic, various mythologies... Did I leave something out? Probably.

 

 

[ ED; the reason I asked was I was going to go further into that astro court card attribution; what do you think is the reason for it ? ]

 

Do you mean, why the areas ruled by the Court Cards are shifted relative to the signs?

 

 

Graph from Raven's excellent website http://www.corax.com/tarot/

 

 

My thoughts on this:

 

As you certainly know, among the Suit Cards, the Aces are not assigned to the decans - however, the cards numbered 2 to 10 are. Although the Suit changes with the sign, the count simply continues. However, the 10s take the place of the Aces here because esoterically we consider 10 = 1 + 0 = 1. So to have a series of consecutive numbers you must reckon: 10 (aka 1) - 2 - 3, straddling two signs, but all three together ruled by the same Court Card; 4 - 5 - 6 by the next CC; 7 - 8 - 9 by the third CC; then the order repeats itself starting with the next 10 which coincides with the last decan of a sign again. So the reason is numerical.

 

Hope this is intelligible.

 

Interesting that in the decan system, the Chaldean order starts with Leo.

 

Do you agree that the zodiac underlying the Suit and Court Cards is Tropical? Raven presupposes this, anyway.

[Nungali]

That's funny - did you have to wear a turban?

 

Why is it funny ? I didnt have to do anything - master of my own domain. I would never wear a turban or anything different to do a Tarot reading. Do you wear a long pointy hat with stars and moons on it when you do astrology ?

 

When I was working with patients in a psychiatric practice during six years back in the 90s, besides using Bach Flower Remedies and astrology, I was occasionally doing card readings as well. (No, I was not wearing a turban.)

 

I was using the cards rather for psychological analysis than for prognostic purposes. Even though they would often hint at future potentials or probabilities in the course of this. But some of the things they seemed to prognosticate did not come to pass.

 

"Always moving the future is." Yoda

 

 

I find Book T constantly mentioned in connection with the Thoth Tarot. Worth taking a really close look at...

 

 

Nicely said. A handbook which includes numerology, astrology, the kabbalah, alchemy, magic, various mythologies... Did I leave something out? Probably.

 

 

Do you mean, why the areas ruled by the Court Cards are shifted relative to the signs?

 

Yes.

 

As you certainly know, among the Suit Cards, the Aces are not assigned to the decans - however, the cards numbered 2 to 10 are.

Yep.

Although the Suit changes with the sign, the count simply continues.

Yep.

However, the 10s take the place of the Aces here because esoterically we consider 10 = 1 + 0 = 1.

Nope .... - dont get that one ... I mean I 'get it' as far as some type of '9 chambered Kabbalah' / a la modern numerology go ... I dont see why that would apply to a suit card sequence.

 

So to have a series of consecutive numbers you must reckon: 10 (aka 1) - 2 - 3, straddling two signs, but all three together ruled by the same Court Card; 4 - 5 - 6 by the next CC; 7 - 8 - 9 by the third CC; then the order repeats itself starting with the next 10 which coincides with the last decan of a sign again. So the reason is numerical.

 

Hope this is intelligible.

In a way ... but in another way, no ... why cannot the 3 card sequences be 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ? Even so, if one 'must reckon' from 1 ( 10) how does the postulated need for numerical sequence relate to a court card that throws it 10 degrees (virtually) out of sync with its usual position. (Its okay I dont ask for an actual answer, I am just outlining why it doesnt make that much sense to me . But thanks for your ideas.

 

Interesting that in the decan system, the Chaldean order starts with Leo.

 

Do you agree that the zodiac underlying the Suit and Court Cards is Tropical? Raven presupposes this, anyway.

 

I dont think it was meant to be ... it probably is now, but so few people seem to care or use Thoth tarot in the way it could be used ... actually, I gave up

 

<Puts on turban and goes and sits in corner pouting>

 

It might just be easier, make me more popular and be able to take $$$$$$ off people to use these ;

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Why is it funny ?

 

I thought it to be "funny" because it's hard to associate somebody with your obvious earnestness and knowledge with a fortune teller on a funfair (well, some kind of market, anyway) - if for no other reason than probably getting asked all kinds of questions that make you go "oh, my nothing!" (but you need to keep it inside). Perhaps one of the reasons why you are glad that you don't do this no more?

 

I didnt have to do anything - master of my own domain. I would never wear a turban or anything different to do a Tarot reading. Do you wear a long pointy hat with stars and moons on it when you do astrology ?

 

No, but thanks for the idea!

 

Nope .... - dont get that one ... I mean I 'get it' as far as some type of '9 chambered Kabbalah' / a la modern numerology go ... I dont see why that would apply to a suit card sequence. In a way ... but in another way, no ... why cannot the 3 card sequences be 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ?

 

A series from 1 to 9 is more intuitive to me, a new cycle starting with 10 (= 1). Or in other words, Malkuth connecting with Kether.

 

Even so, if one 'must reckon' from 1 ( 10) how does the postulated need for numerical sequence relate to a court card that throws it 10 degrees (virtually) out of sync with its usual position.

 

It's "usual position" in what system?

 

(Its okay I dont ask for an actual answer, I am just outlining why it doesnt make that much sense to me . But thanks for your ideas.

 

You're welcome. I wrote this off the top of my head. If you have any that make more sense, make sure you let me know.

 

I dont think it was meant to be ... it probably is now, but so few people seem to care or use Thoth tarot in the way it could be used ... actually, I gave up

 

<Puts on turban and goes and sits in corner pouting>

 

No, no, don't do it!!! - Surely I and other readers of this thread would like to hear your insights.

 

It might just be easier, make me more popular and be able to take $$$$$$ off people to use these ;

 

 

:D

[Nungali]

I thought it to be "funny" because it's hard to associate somebody with your obvious earnestness and knowledge with a fortune teller on a funfair (well, some kind of market, anyway) - if for no other reason than probably getting asked all kinds of questions that make you go "oh, my nothing!" (but you need to keep it inside). Perhaps one of the reasons why you are glad that you don't do this no more?

 

Oooo like this you mean like this:

 

 

(Looks more like my old initiators 'regalia'

 

perhaps this ?

 

 

You are partially right about the 'dont do this no more reason' . I cant 'keep up with' the channellers ( I did some dolphin channelling but people got upset with the way it came out of me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, but thanks for the idea!

 

You're welcome

 

A series from 1 to 9 is more intuitive to me, a new cycle starting with 10 (= 1). Or in other words, Malkuth connecting with Kether.

 

 

It's "usual position" in what system?

 

Just attributing the court to the sign with no overlap to another sign.

 

You're welcome. I wrote this off the top of my head. If you have any that make more sense, make sure you let me know.

 

This is Cowley's ( the decks 'creator') description from The Book of Thoth " The reason for this is that in the realm of the Elements all things are mixed and confused; or, as the apologist might say, counter checked and counter-balanced. The convenience of these arrangements is that these cards are suitable as being descriptive, in a rough and empirical fashion, of divers types of men and women. One may say briefly that any of these cards is a picture of the person whose Sun, or whose rising Sign at his nativity, falls within the Zodiacal attribution of the card. Thus, a person born on 12th October might possess many of the qualities of the Queen of Swords; while, if he were born shortly before midnight, he would add many of the characteristics of the Prince of Wands." - which, in a way, seems to make little sense ? Unless he is talking about the three modes ( another type of 'decan') in a sign and the next cardinal over rules the preceding mutable ?

 

No, no, don't do it!!! - Surely I and other readers of this thread would like to hear your insights.

 

 

:D

 

Other readers ?

Edited August 31, 2014 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

 

 

Oooo like this you mean like this:

 

 

(Looks more like my old initiators 'regalia'

 

perhaps this ?

 

 

How about this one...

 

http://yamaorce.deviantart.com/art/JP-Fortune-Teller-378983618

 

You are partially right about the 'dont do this no more reason' . I cant 'keep up with' the channellers ( I did some dolphin channelling but people got upset with the way it came out of me

 

 

I get a feeling that, once again, they just didn't understand what you were saying.

 

Just attributing the court to the sign with no overlap to another sign.

 

Got ya - but do you know somebody actually suggesting this kind of scheme?

 

 

This is Cowley's ( the decks 'creator') description from The Book of Thoth " The reason for this is that in the realm of the Elements all things are mixed and confused; or, as the apologist might say, counter checked and counter-balanced. The convenience of these arrangements is that these cards are suitable as being descriptive, in a rough and empirical fashion, of divers types of men and women.

 

They are indeed, in my observation.

 

As far as the explanation is concerned - frankly, I like my own better.

 

 

One may say briefly that any of these cards is a picture of the person whose Sun, or whose rising Sign at his nativity, falls within the Zodiacal attribution of the card. Thus, a person born on 12th October might possess many of the qualities of the Queen of Swords; while, if he were born shortly before midnight, he would add many of the characteristics of the Prince of Wands." - which, in a way, seems to make little sense ? Unless he is talking about the three modes ( another type of 'decan') in a sign and the next cardinal over rules the preceding mutable ?

 

Well, the same question could be raised for the signs, of course. Is somebody born right before the Sun entering a new sign already manifesting that new sign's traits? Or are they straddling both signs, to a certain extent? It's getting debated even more in regard of the houses... Does a planet standing a few degrees before a cusp already belong to that house? Many astrologers assume this to be true.

 

But is five minutes before midnight quite the same as five minutes after? Just asking questions, not saying anything for certain here...

 

 

 

Other readers ?

 

Oh yes, we do have an audience! Unless it's you who keeps calling up this thread and makes the views count skyrocket...

[Nungali]

How about this one...

 

http://yamaorce.deviantart.com/art/JP-Fortune-Teller-378983618

 

NO thanks . I used to be a drummer for a belly dancing troupe and the women were always wanting sex off me ... in those costumes and wanting to practice their movements while we were 'doing it' ..... Oh .... I am so over having sex with belly dancers

 

I get a feeling that, once again, they just didn't understand what you were saying.

 

 

Got ya - but do you know somebody actually suggesting this kind of scheme?

 

Both here : http://www.tarotmoon.com/articles/AstroCourt/AstroCourt.html

 

There is the standard perverse Waite method ( not Waites method but a method many RW Tarot users adopt) elemental , sex, age; http://www.taroticallyspeaking.com/knowledge/which-court-card-are-you

 

(But Waite made a big mess of his courts attribution anyway ... especially the King Prince switch

 

http://hubpages.com/hub/which_tarot_card

 

This one even uses Thoth deck in this way http://tarotjourney.net/astrology-court-cards/

 

I can keep listing them but got bored.

 

They are indeed, in my observation.

 

As far as the explanation is concerned - frankly, I like my own better.

 

 

Well, the same question could be raised for the signs, of course. Is somebody born right before the Sun entering a new sign already manifesting that new sign's traits? Or are they straddling both signs, to a certain extent? It's getting debated even more in regard of the houses... Does a planet standing a few degrees before a cusp already belong to that house? Many astrologers assume this to be true.

 

No sorry ... one microsecond of arc over the line and you are a totally diff person . I thought it was given ... a bit of blurring near the boundaries , but I cant see that as a valid reason to shift the attribution. It still tries to classify people via 12 divisions regardless of where the boundary is ... if a cardinal influence is so strong one has to move the border ......

 

But is five minutes before midnight quite the same as five minutes after? Just asking questions, not saying anything for certain here...

 

 

Oh yes, we do have an audience! Unless it's you who keeps calling up this thread and makes the views count skyrocket...

 

Nah ( I have noticed though that some people 'like' their own posts .... )

Edited August 31, 2014 by Nungali