Astrological Musings

[Nungali]

But now the self-like function seems to have gone ???

 

 

Moderators ! Moderators !

 

I cant like myself anymore !

Edited August 31, 2014 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

 

NO thanks . I used to be a drummer for a belly dancing troupe and the women were always wanting sex off me ... in those costumes and wanting to practice their movements while we were 'doing it' ..... Oh .... I am so over having sex with belly dancers

 

Oh you poor man! Must have been an awful qi drain!

 

 

Both here : http://www.tarotmoon.com/articles/AstroCourt/AstroCourt.html

 

There is the standard perverse Waite method ( not Waites method but a method many RW Tarot users adopt) elemental , sex, age; http://www.taroticallyspeaking.com/knowledge/which-court-card-are-you

 

(But Waite made a big mess of his courts attribution anyway ... especially the King Prince switch

 

I guess what you are referring to is Waite (unlike Crowley) not taking over the GD scheme but retaining the old tradition which always had: King, Queen, Knight, Page. It is not unambiguous how the two schemes relate to each other. While it's clear that Pages became Princesses in the Thoth deck, and Queens remained Queens, Crowley says that the Knight is the highest in the hierarchy, and marries the Queen (he found this romantic). Thus, with the Knights taking the positions traditionally attributed to the Kings, logically the Princes should then be equivalent to the traditional Knights.

 

Consequently, the usual elemental assignment in RW (King = Fire, Queen = Water, Knight = Air, Page = Earth) becomes:

 

Knight = Fire

Queen = Water

Prince = Air

Princess = Earth

 

If you arrange them on the Aristotelian cross of the elements accordingly, you get the Knights and the Queens on one axis, and perpendicular to it the Princes and the Princesses on the other, which makes sense to me.

 

 

http://hubpages.com/hub/which_tarot_card

 

This one even uses Thoth deck in this way http://tarotjourney.net/astrology-court-cards/

 

I can keep listing them but got bored.

 

Your linked websites and other sources suggest plenty of schemes divergent from the one given above. Here again, we seem to be dealing with "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

 

I feel that whatever system is underlying a deck of cards, it's the one valid for that particular one. I don't think that the literature relating to one deck can be applied to another at face value. To this extent, various decks are Universes in their own right. And they all work, practically. Even the cat cards you have posted above, I'm sure.

 

It's easy to think of the different arrangements as rather arbitrary, if compared to the relative rigour found i.e. in astrology. But then again, even in astrology we are dealing with a lot of ambiguity, not only as far as the actual zodiac to be used but also regarding the countless different house systems etc.

 

Doesn't sound very scientific? Well, for that matter, both the Theory Of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have been proven time and again. But nobody can explain how they can be reconciled with each other when dealing with singularities.

 

 

No sorry ... one microsecond of arc over the line and you are a totally diff person . I thought it was given ... a bit of blurring near the boundaries , but I cant see that as a valid reason to shift the attribution. It still tries to classify people via 12 divisions regardless of where the boundary is ... if a cardinal influence is so strong one has to move the border ......

 

As I indicated before, the question of the shift of the Court Cards relative to the zodiacal signs reminds me of the Tropical vs Sidereal debate, somehow.

 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Sunbeam]

Funny no Taurians as yet...

I know a few, most have no interest in metaphysical stuff

 

Haha after taking the poll I was shocked I was the only Taurus!

[Michael Sternbach]

Haha after taking the poll I was shocked I was the only Taurus!

 

Actually, Taurus does have a spiritual side... Let's call it "nature spirituality."

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Actually, Taurus does have a spiritual side... Let's call it "nature spirituality."

 

Of course Taurus has a spiritual side, very few of them would express it by posting on online forums, which is what is being measured here, not the relative spirituality of the signs. Taureans would have trouble grasping why people would want to spend all of this time talking about being spiritual, rather than being spiritual. It would be like phone sex, another thing they don't understand.

[iain]

Hello folks nice to meet you,

Just wondering where to vote: I'm a student of Jyotiṣa, (Vedic astrology) and as such I believe that the 12 house (bhāvana) are formed principally of the mahatattva or 5 principle elements; by way of the stars.
Our current detachment from mother earth, and the consequent ecological conundrum; arguably on a parallel with the detachment of the houses from the stars, perhaps due to a lack of the aether element.
I love Jyotish (light) and the resulting study of astronomy and astrology; however, I must concede, that I am not really sure how to fill in the poll.

All that said, I love to discuss astrology and am very pleased to meet you all.

I'm a Virgo Sun in the Tropical system; a Leo Sun in the Vedic sidereal system ...

Kind regards.

Edited October 4, 2014 by iain

[Michael Sternbach]

Hello folks nice to meet you,

 

Just wondering where to vote: I'm a student of Jyotiṣa, (Vedic astrology) and as such I believe that the 12 house (bhāvana) are formed principally of the mahatattva or 5 principle elements; by way of the stars.

Our current detachment from mother earth, and the consequent ecological conundrum; arguably on a parallel with the detachment of the houses from the stars, perhaps due to a lack of the aether element.

I love Jyotish (light) and the resulting study of astronomy and astrology; however, I must concede, that I am not really sure how to fill in the poll.

 

All that said, I love to discuss astrology and am very pleased to meet you all.

 

I'm a Virgo Sun in the Tropical system; a Leo Sun in the Vedic sidereal system ...

 

Kind regards.

Hi Iain

 

I assume that voters generally refer to their Tropical Sun sign so you may want to do that too, even if only for reasons of "scientific" consistency.

 

The question which zodiac is the "right" one involves an ongoing debate in the astrological community and we will hardly resolve it here - even though we did try in the course of this thread!

 

Personally, I think that both perspectives might be valid - what matters is what you are "tuning into."

 

Nice to meet you, too.

 

Cheers,

Michael

Edited October 5, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[iain]

Hello Michael,

I may need to make a few more posts before being able to vote; that shouldn't be any problem as this seems to be a rather nice forum with many fascinating threads ...
Oh I agree with you totaly, when it comes to validity, the fractal nature of this and that, work from many perspectives. The different systems we use to map it are all just as valid as each other.
Numerology is fundamental to vedic astrology also, and palmistry is often used to rectify the birth time,
It is perhaps only, that which we are trying to achieve that may differ slightly.

The structure of time and that of the universe is to my mind, quite simply very beautiful; it is of no matter then, which way we choose to adopt to investigate it.

Right then, back to the polls; Virgo it is!

[Sunbeam]

The Koch article (can't find it now in the thread!) was very interesting. I have spoken to other very well known and learned astrologers about this and this is more or less how they felt as well. There is even a small group of people locally in my area practicing vedic astrology using the tropical system for what seems to be similar reasons. The tropical zodiac seems to work and is accurate. I haven't personally felt a resonance with my sidereal zodiac if it's interpreted at all similarly to the tropical system. Its the rising sign that gets me, though in theory all the house positions and aspect patterns are the same it's just the signs that differ. I am always open to understanding more, but I just feel it changes the tone of things considerably if one goes by traditional sign associations.

 

However, I, like others, have wondered about this disconnection between the cosmos as we view it on earth now and Hellenistic astrology. Maybe someday there will be a brilliant astrologer who remaps our entire consciousness surrounding the zodiac and presents a system that works with more accuracy and resolves these conundrums present in both tropical and sidereal perspectives.

 

That said, I have a friend whose recently gotten into the astrological aspects of the I-Ching and Chinese Astrology. I'm sure there's topics on that as well... but talk about a totally different paradigm, but equally as deep and compelling.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Sunbeam

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The Koch article (can't find it now in the thread!) was very interesting.

 

Do you mean this one:

 

 

Western astrology uses the Tropical Moving star system to draw up its charts. This is based on the movement of the equinoxes and the Western Tropical position is now approximately 24 degrees away from the Vedic Fixed star accurate position. The Western system is continuing to move away from the fixed (accurate) position of stars. This means that charts drawn up in the two systems vary by nearly 24 degrees at present and this gap is growing larger yearly. This means that someone with a Sun in the first half of Aries according to Western astrology has a Sun in Pisces in the Vedic system. This produces a totally different chart if this is applied to all points in the chart. The Vedic chart shows the accurate position of planets.

The above quote is rather bias to say the least. Originally I was going to quote from some of my earlier posts on the Tao Bums, but doing a little more online research I found this long, but well reasoned and informative article:

 

Vedic Astrology - critically examined

 

It is well worth the read and the author's astrological and academic credentials are above reproach:

 

Dieter Koch

 

I don't suppose you mean this one do you?

 

I have studied both Chinese and Western Astrology and both are interesting and I think basically complementary systems. I wish I could post more here, but I don't have the time right now, earlier on I did post a little about Chinese Astrology and elsewhere I have posted on Yijing astrology also, but not in the detail I might wish.

[Daeluin]

In some ways I feel that science maps the lines while spirituality maps between (and before) the lines.

 

Astrology that focuses on planetary movement describes the effects of the physical on the spiritual.

Astrology focusing on qi patterns describes something more in between both, as qi is what arises when the physical and celestial mate.

 

I find it curious how in Tropical Astrology Aries initiates upon the Equinox, while in Chinese Astrology (also seasonal based), Mao (rabbit) is centered around the Equinox. This way of perceiving the change in seasons was completely new to me, but now that I've been following it for a year, it makes a lot more sense. Fore and After-shadowing are very real dynamics seen everywhere in reality - the hour before sunrise is in polarity with the hour following the sunrise; both revolve around a common center and are one. The Autumnal Equinox ends Virgo and begins Libra, even while centered around Metal (rooster). This seasonal Metal signifies the harvest, and in turn has its own yang and yin. One happily coincides with the last half of Virgo - preparation and planning for the harvest, and the first half of Libra - gathering together of community to harmoniously reap the harvest. Next comes Dog - the Earth phase responsible for integrating and uniting the Fire and Metal of the previous seasons in preparation for Winter. Here the last half of Libra distributes the harvest and stores it, coming to balance, while the first half of Scorpio comes along and ensures all of the life and death necessities are taken care of before winter, etc.

 

Zhongyongdaoist, any interest in discussing more about I Ching Astrology? I posted about it here. I'm slowly getting deeper, but sometimes I feel like I'm struggling with things that are probably answered in untranslated texts. There was a lot of information in the old fivearts.net forums, but I only found them a few months before that site retired. Hehe... time for new beginnings it seems!

[Sunbeam]

Yes that is the article! I do feel that the systems could be complementary. I use Chinese astrology sometimes to figure out general compatibility but I admit my understanding is EXTREMELY rudimentary compared to what can be known. The animal characteristics and elements of Chinese astrology do regardless seem to play a part even if the tropical charts don't show the same problems. On a subtle level they usually do, but not always

[iain]

Hello there,

I should love to learn a little more of Chinese astrology, did it follow Buddhism, from India or perhaps there is an older root in I ching and the Tao; I am here to learn of this really.

In Jyotiṣa the study of light rather than the planets them selves; the star zodiac of 27 houses is of the mind and the 12 houses the physical manifestation, between them lays infinity. They emerge by way of the tattva or elements, of which in Kashmir śavism there are 36. Essential this is the border between Prakṛti and puruṣa, the material and the spiritual.
Jyotiṣa is in all essence, a bridge between the two. As you mention qi, this sounds like different language or perspectives for the very same thing; how wonderful!

Qi is known as prāṇa in the vedic system, an important part of understanding of the manifestation of a kundali. This is why sadhana is an important part of the Jyotiṣas practice.

I would love to know if Chinese astrology uses the dasha system at all, it is very important in the practices of Jyotish, a tool by which a natives future is known, or estimated. We can predict or see when children will be born, marriages, moving house or country; many different things.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Edited October 6, 2014 by iain

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Chinese Astrology predates the introduction of Buddhism and is constructed on a different set of cycles than Western astrology. Chinese astrology takes it basic time scale from the 20 year Saturn/Jupiter cycle, the twelve year Jupiter cycle and the eight year Sun/Venus cycle, these provide the time periods which are the basis of Chinese Astrology. While the Animal Zodiac is well known the adaptation of those names is relatively late, but grafted onto an earlier system.

I posted some useful leads here:

 

As a quick note:

There are several types of Chinese Astrology. The Books of Derek Walters are good:

Derek Walters Books on Amazon

and this site:

Delemme Chinese and Western Astrology

They have Chinese and Western astrology programs, a book for learning Chinese astrology and other things. Trial versions of the software can be downloaded and while their interfaces leave a something to be desired, they do get the job done. I will post more later if I have the time.

 

I hope that this is helpful.

[iain]

Thank you Zhongyongdaoist,

Very helpful, I am intrigued to learn more of this Saturn Jupiter cycle of 20 years ...

[Michael Sternbach]

There's a thread on Skyscript some of you might find interesting where I have been speaking about Chinese in contrast with Western astrology with a Chinese astrologer earlier this year.

 

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8289

 

I will also look into Zhongyongdaoist's and Daeluin's links, when I find the time.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Sunbeam]

Interesting, I had noticed the correlations with the Jupiter and Saturn cycles when studying the I-Ching... but I haven't had the chance to study it more deeply. I'll have to check into all these links when I have a chance.

 

Kelly Lee Phipps has a pretty interesting and amazing analysis of the Saturn-Jupiter cycle over 5000 years. I'm going to try and find a way to upload it to this forum -- he was basically an astrological genius and wealth of an insane breadth of information, which he gave out freely to anyone interested.

[Sunbeam]

Here it is. It's called "Elemental Wave Chronicles!"

 

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=56975980035118164200

Edited October 7, 2014 by Sunbeam

[iain]

Thank you for the file Sunbeam, I shall read it with great interest.
The sidreal system combined with the motion of the planets creats some important cycles for us in Vedic astrology, notably the Jupitarian cycle; when taken in referance to the stars behind, takes 60 years to complete a full return to the same star, having completed 5 full orbits of the zodiac

The wonderful thing about this cycle is that it compares beautifuly to the fundamental pentatonic musical scales. Should one play the flute, you will require 12 different pentatonic (5 note scale) flutes to play all tonalities and then to arrive back at the first ...

Or alternatively 12 different blues harps to get all the notes and jam with anyone.

I love this

[Sunbeam]

Interesting that the Jupiter cycle takes 60 years to return to the same star. Perhaps this is an association with the Chinese element/sign cycle which is also 60 years? Thus... 5 elements (which you said is incorporated into the vedic system you study).

 

And interesting to bring up the pentatonic harmonies -- as a musician, I felt astrology is so much like music to read and understand! Do you also know that the Venus-Sun orbit pattern forms a pentacle?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Sunbeam

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Finally some time to get back to this.

And interesting to bring up the pentatonic harmonies -- as a musician, I felt astrology is so much like music to read and understand! Do you also know that the Venus-Sun orbit pattern forms a pentacle?

Actually it forms two pentacles, one related to “the morning” star and one to the “evening”, they alternate and form this in an eight year cycle that combines with the Moon in an interesting way. The Sun, Moon and Venus have a conjunction once every hundred new Moons, this happens in eight years and four months and a little less than two days earlier each year, thus repeating eventually in something over 200 years. When I first learned of this back in the 1980s, I couldn't help but think of the Ten Heavenly Stems with their alternation between yin and yang aspects of each of the five elements. The combination of the Ten Heavenly Stems with the Twelve Earthly Branches defined by the Jupiter cycle give us the sixty unit cycle of the jiazi, which repeats as a cycle of sixty years, months, days and hours giving us the eight pillars of Bazi.

As iain has noted:

Thank you for the file Sunbeam, I shall read it with great interest.notably the Jupitarian cycle; when taken in referance to the stars behind, takes 60 years to complete a full return to the same star, having completed 5 full orbits of the zodiac

This sixty year cycle is three of these twenty year cycles, which is the cycle of the Saturn/Jupiter conjunctions, which I mentioned here:

. . . I am intrigued to learn more of this Saturn Jupiter cycle of 20 years ...

Which form a triangle against the starry background, as Sun/Venus forms a pentacle.

The Chinese have another important cycle and that is the cycle of the Nine Stars and they unify the sixty year cycle with the nine year cycle through a great cycle of 180 year, consisting of a lower, middle and upper cycle of the sexegenary cycle and twenty nine year cycles.

I posted some useful references here:

In the early eighties two works stimulated an interest in ancient arithmetic, one . . . is McClain's The Pythagorean Plato and and the other Oscar Marcel Hinze's Tantra Vidya.

McClain has a website where PDFs of his two fundamental works, the aforementioned Pythagorean Plato and The Myth of Invariance can be downloaded. It is here:

http://www.ernestmcclain.net/

To my surprise Tantra Vidya is still available:

http://www.amazon.com/Tantra-Vidya-Oscar-Marcel-Hinze/dp/8120805240

Hinze's Tantra Vidya consists of two fascinating essays, one a treatment of the Chakras related to these planetary periods and the other a discussion of the similarities between the Greek philosopher Parmenides and Tantric doctrines.

McClain's works deal with music and esoteric number theory in ancient times, for most modern “mystics” who are dismissive of Plato and the value of his dialogues The Pythagorean Plato is an eye opener. In The Myth of Invariance, McClain looks into the number patterns which he examines in Plato's dialogue in other cultures. It has been a long time since I have read McClain and I don't believe that he considers these astronomical cycles, and he works with the later seven tone musical scales, but combining his work with these astronomical cycles is an interesting field of thought.

Edit: After posting the above link to Ernest McClain's site, I discovered that Professor McClain had passed away and his site was no longer active. However thanks to Mr. Peobody and Sherman,



his site and material can be accessed here:

WayBack Machine Internet Archive: Ernest McClain

 

 

Second Edit: Oddly enough the above link works for some but not all of McClain's works, The Pythagorean Plato being one of them, however it can can be found here:

 

The Pythagorean Plato on Google docs

Edited October 8, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[iain]

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in mu response, thank you for all the wonderful info and links: I am quite fascinated by the notion of Bazi and the links to Ernest G. McClain are wonderful, I shall try to find some time to read a little of his work it looks very interesting indeed, just downloading a pdf now. The notions that are the intricately woven tapestry of life, all these different aspects of the manifold nature of space and time, are wonderful of them selves, simply divine; that they have been mapped by others for us to study and ponder, is simply breath taking.

I have so much to study on my Jyotiṣa course already, I must be careful not to become to distracted. Yes the Jyotiṣa doctrine or vedāṅga is very much interwoven with the vedāṅga that is yoga, there are 6 in all, all are important in their own right as well as seen together; naturally the different doctrines interrelate most eloquently; as such we do find the essence of kundalini in the kundali.

Yes it would seem that this 60 year cycle is very similar to the Chinese, though not entirely the same. Called the samvatsara, it is an important part of the Indian panchanga or calendar giving the years name, of which their are 60. Each of the years have a different character or flavor but they are also grouped into 5 years by tattva (element) and 5 tattva groups, of these groups of 5 years the first is ascribed to Aries the second to Taurus, etc ... Jupiter is symbolic of akash tattva or either, and this cycle is thus very fundamental to the system; in horā śāstra the basic sign attributes are mapped to the native, as being the way that a native perceives God, this evolves as we proceed through the zodiac.
This 5 years period is a basic unit in vedāṅga Jyotiṣa, a yuga period; being the average period in which the Sun and Moon conjoin in a particular star. It takes an average of 5 years for the Sun and Moon to conjoin in the same place. The angle between the Sun and Moon is very important for us Jyotiṣa and indeed for the Hindu calendar in its construction as it is luni solar; this is used to time the completion of this Jovian cycle.
So we have the Sun, Moon and Jupiter giving this cycle its definition, by way of their conjunction. The Sun Moon and Jupiter make what is known as the tripod of life and are considered to be the right, left and 3rd eyes of śiva.

The pentagram and pentagon are symbolic of the number 5, and of Jupiter in the Vedic astrology system, as such Jupiter represents Thursday the 5th day of the vedic week. Have you come across the calculation using the 7 pointed star yantra to give the order of the weekdays, from the planetary speeds?

 

Most eloquent.

Kind regards.

Edited October 11, 2014 by iain

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The pentagram and pentagon are symbolic of the number 5, and of Jupiter in the Vedic astrology system, as such Jupiter represents Thursday the 5th day of the vedic week. Have you come across the calculation using the 7 pointed star yantra to give the order of the weekdays, from the planetary speeds?

 

 

Most eloquent.

 

Kind regards.

 

 

Well, regarding the relationships between the Planetary days and hours I figured them out from the table of planetary days in hours in my copy of The Greater Key of Solomon, when I about thirteen. I had to wait until I read Israel Regardie's The Golden Dawn, around the time I turned twenty before I realized it was also one of the septagrams that could be drawn in a septagon. I was a very strange boy and prone to the study and practice of forbidden arts.

 

I am glad that you are enjoying McClain.

[iain]

The calendar is quite fascinating in its construction; our heavy dependance on clocks and the solar calendar in the West, tends to distract our attention from the true nature of time, at least I think so.

Ah yes, an interest at a young age; most certainly from past life learning ... When speaking of Jyotiṣa, it is often said it can take many lifetimes to swim this great Ocean.
I certainly appreciate your links and info!

Edited October 12, 2014 by iain

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil