Hello! Atheist, Skeptic & Open Minded Here:)

[SFRanger]

Open to any knowledge that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis. The writings of the Tao, Confucius, the healing methodology of Qigong and all without mysticism I found informative - worth learning more. This is why I am here.

 

How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

 

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger: Unrealized guitarist

 

SGM B.C.

 

 

[Chang]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

 

You will find athiests, skeptics a plenty here as well as a good few of the open minded. They all have their say and now you find yourself ranked amongst them.

 

You are now free to post on the forum but for the first seven days you will be restricted to ten posts per day. Before getting started please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this welcome section and also take a look at the forum terms and rules http://thetaobums.co...um-terms-rules/ This covers all that you need be aware of when getting started.

 

Good luck, best wishes and enjoy be sure to enjoy yourself,

 

Chang and Tao Bums Team

[Marblehead]

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger:

Thanks for serving!

[EarthDragon]

Fellow guitar player and music lover Welcome!

[Tennoryou]

Hey SFranger, welcome fellow newbie. I'm an atheist skeptic myself. Even though I've had plenty of experiences that others might deem mystical (out of body, clairvoyance telepathy, astral travel etc) I just don't see the need to define it terms that relate to deities. Obviously, a lot of folks, some of my friends included, believe they are in communication with otherworldly entities. And, I'm not going to diss their perspectives for a moment. It's all about what works best for you, eh.

 

My own belief, so far, is that consciousness is a singular, global phenomenon across the universe. We're all just facets of it. So, while on our plane of existence, this 4 dimensional thing we call reality, it may seem there's a separation between individuals, and thus that there are higher forms of consciousness in the ether, I think it's really just manifestations of ourselves.

 

That said, thinking of things in terms of familiars or spirits or entities can be quite enchanting and fun, and there's nothing wrong with it. So long as one realizes that that the power they have comes from within us, not from outside us.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Tennoryou

[ViscountValmont]

Fellow Atheist and Taoist here, SFRanger. I fully embrace the "purist" Taoist tradition. Nothing I do, spiritually or martially, touches the realm of the supernatural. Lao Tzu had no illusions about dying. His purpose was to eliminate fear of death (and create Sage Kings... but that's beside the point), and embrace everything completely without judgment. Internal martial arts can be explained with regular ol' Newtonian Physics. And spiritual practices are self-explanatory: they're good for the brain and body. As well, Biocentrism, a current (and very serious) Quantum Field theory states that consciousness is the key to understanding all reality. That the current experiments surrounding observation of sub-atomic is literally due to human observation, linking us with the very fabric of space. It also states that time is actually made up, part of the way human consciousness processes incoming stimuli. But it is not real, and thusly does not affect the universe the way we think it does. It is merely a useful tool that the mind uses to get by from day to day, but ultimately an illusory concept.

 

All of these things have been stated by the Taoist (pre Celestial Masters sect) tradition for thousands of years.

 

If you are interested in discussing this type of worldview, I love a good talk.

 

-V

[KenBrace]

Scientific Evidence For Qi Energy & Real Abilities

Edited August 14, 2014 by KenBrace

[ViscountValmont]

It's all bioelectrical energy being harnessed. Perfectly normal. Our bodies are basically thermo-electrical combustion bio-engines that run on sugars and proteins, requiring oxygen and water for the thermal actions that take place at the mitochondrial level. Affecting the circulatory and nervous system is easily done by visualizing correctly and breathing specifically to stoke the fires. However, these sorts of abilities are rarely used at the martial level. They are parlor tricks of the human body. I have never heard of anyone harnessing this ability for the sake of self defense, or using it for such. But other elements of the internal arts are imminently practical for their use in fighting. Sending vibrations past the opponent's abdomen wall and rib cage to the organs is a useful tactic to have at your disposal, for instance.

[GrandmasterP]

It's all bioelectrical energy being harnessed. Perfectly normal. Our bodies are basically thermo-electrical combustion bio-engines that run on sugars and proteins, requiring oxygen and water for the thermal actions that take place at the mitochondrial level. Affecting the circulatory and nervous system is easily done by visualizing correctly and breathing specifically to stoke the fires. However, these sorts of abilities are rarely used at the martial level. They are parlor tricks of the human body. I have never heard of anyone harnessing this ability for the sake of self defense, or using it for such. But other elements of the internal arts are imminently practical for their use in fighting. Sending vibrations past the opponent's abdomen wall and rib cage to the organs is a useful tactic to have at your disposal, for instance.

 

One word...

"KIAI"

 

 

Welcome to TTB BTW.

[ChiDragon]

It's all bioelectrical energy being harnessed. Perfectly normal. Our bodies are basically thermo-electrical combustion bio-engines that run on sugars and proteins, requiring oxygen and water for the thermal actions that take place at the mitochondrial level. Affecting the circulatory and nervous system is easily done by visualizing correctly and breathing specifically to stoke the fires. However, these sorts of abilities are rarely used at the martial level. They are parlor tricks of the human body. I have never heard of anyone harnessing this ability for the sake of self defense, or using it for such. But other elements of the internal arts are imminently practical for their use in fighting. Sending vibrations past the opponent's abdomen wall and rib cage to the organs is a useful tactic to have at your disposal, for instance.

 

It was in use without you knowing it. Otherwise, you may not be standing up and fight at all.

[ViscountValmont]

Okay. Well I'm going to make it clear again that I don't believe in such horseshit. As I've said, I've achieved a high level of proficiency in Taijiquan and Baguazhang without the use of "Chi," including energy strikes. Soooo... I'll clarify, Chi is a mix of confused energies of a mental and physical nature. I have no doubts that bioelectrical energy can and is harnessed for differing abilities. But there is no separate energy called "Chi." Chi is potential, kinetic, thermal, and electrical energies, often confused for a single energy. It is not. And a lone study showing some dubious claims about something they don't understand to begin with because science doesn't allow for the kind of control over the human body we actually possess within its current paradigm... isn't going to change my 15 years worth of experience and working out these high level skills for myself. You all let an obsolescent belief system goad you into untruths and half instruction, clouded and muddied by centuries of people that pretended they knew to "save face." I live in China, I assure you, these people would rather be dead wrong and save face, than lose face and be completely right. Many people would rather label it "Chi" because they want to have magical powers and revel in the adulation and looks of wonder they get performing parlor tricks for idiots.

 

Well sorry. I would rather have the practical skills Taiji promises, than sit around hoping one day I'll be able to blow out a candle from a few feet away.

I'm curious how many claim this approach as their own belief system, but cannot produce any of the results? Advice: drop the Chi nonsense and go by feel. Your body gives you everything you need. And if one day, after developing ALL THE OTHER SKILLS of the internal arts, you suddenly find you can also move a cotton ball without touching it... well, kudos. But it's still a worthless skill.

[thelerner]

I tend to agree with Viscount, in Ki-Aikido we'd do things like sit in seiza and let 5 or 6 people push against us. It wasn't exotic energy that permitted it as much as neutralizing the first persons force. Yet, to learn the skill taking the metaphor of chi, literally, helped quite a bit!? The metaphors for chi, put the 'energy' down, extend the energy, created the relaxed focus that allowed the 'tricks' to work.

 

I think without the metaphor of using chi/ki, getting the tricks, lets call them skills because they can be used in many situations, would have taken much longer. There was an amazing strength and automatic reflex that came faster if you used the energy metaphor.

 

At the highest level, all bets are off. Maybe because those few have developed a more efficient way to deliver there bioenergy. In which case real and metaphor blur.

 

my 2 cents.

Edited August 15, 2014 by thelerner

[KenBrace]

Okay. Well I'm going to make it clear again that I don't believe in such horseshit.

 

Use whatever word you want. I don't really think that "chi" is a good word either due to the "magical" conitation it has. I'm too lazy to think of a better term though so I just stick with Qi/chi.

 

Well sorry. I would rather have the practical skills Taiji promises, than sit around hoping one day I'll be able to blow out a candle from a few feet away.

 

I would rather practice something that produces results than sit around all day doing taiji and achieving nothing worthwhile.

 

I'm curious how many claim this approach as their own belief system, but cannot produce any of the results?

 

Yep. That's problem with most "Qi" stuff. It produces nothing but delusion and/or uselessness. Mo Pai is a rare exception. It produces real, demonstratablr results.

 

Advice: drop the Chi nonsense and go by feel. Your body gives you everything you need. And if one day, after developing ALL THE OTHER SKILLS of the internal arts, you suddenly find you can also move a cotton ball without touching it... well, kudos. But it's still a worthless skill.

Yes your body does have everything you need. This includes a biological spirit that can be developed and advanced. If you aren't advancing your spirit then you aren't getting anywhere spiritually (hate using that word too).

[ViscountValmont]

I wholeheartedly believe that the spiritual side (again, for lack of a better term, because I consider it to be an extremely advanced and complicated mental aspect of human experience) to be of dearest import. I know that astral projection (or whatever you want to call it) is a very real phenomena, and as a separate function that differs from lucid dreaming. I have put tons of time into my own spiritual development. I just don't delude myself into thinking that THAT is what gives me the superpowers to kick someone's ass. It actually contributes though. Because Taiji is MEANT to be used, as a fighting art... by the "awakened" person (now there's a term that conjures bullshit... like "enlightenment"). The state of mind of pure relaxation and of "no mind" is the pinnacle of states to be in during a fight. Especially one where you've trained for years for bodily relaxation. So, the spiritual side has a VERY practical side. This is something I spear-head in my attempt to teach people authentic Taiji that works. That the spiritual enlightenment of the boxer is to martial benefit, and was INTENDED by the style's creators.

 

Although I don't believe that spiritual development is solely for martial purposes either. It's also because these people had the wisdom to give us the keys to a happy life. Who wants to suffer their whole lives? And between the various approaches, one truly can be happy. I'm living proof of it, as I honestly couldn't be happier and it's a sustained kind of joy. It's a way of knowing that your emotions aren't really your own, and your thoughts are just an automated response, no different than the heart. That doesn't mean you have to identify with everything that goes on in your head or in your body. That you truly are the exact same as everything else around you, and the lines drawn between things are false. And knowing that you always will exist in the form of energy, endlessly recycled into other things for all eternity, and therefore death is not real. And that our judgments, about our lives and families and deeds... are all illusory. They need not bring us pain, and can be cast aside because the past is simply a mental construct based on a warped perception of events that didn't actually happen.

 

All this, I learned from Taiji. And... how to destroy someone physically. But I don't confuse two over-lapping fields for the same entity.

 

And I don't pretend I'm The Emperor from Star Wars like I'm going to shock people to death while holding them up by the throat with my telekinesis.

 

Well actually, I do. But only when I'm alone and can put on my costume as well.

Edited August 15, 2014 by ViscountValmont

[KenBrace]

And knowing that you always will exist in the form of energy, endlessly recycled into other things for all eternity, and therefore death is not real.

 

So you're perfectly satisfied with being endlessly recycled throughout the rest of eternity? You feel no need to fight for your survival?

[KenBrace]

And I don't pretend I'm The Emperor from Star Wars like I'm going to shock people to death while holding them up by the throat with my telekinesis.

 

Good. The majority of people interested in energetic development are trying to be someone from starwars, or most commonly, some idiot from Dragon Ball Z. Half the people I talk to are trying to become Goku and have amazing DBZ powerz.

[Jetsun]

So you're perfectly satisfied with being endlessly recycled throughout the rest of eternity? You feel no need to fight for your survival?

 

Perhaps what you are fighting to keep alive doesn't even exist in any substantial way, that is basically what many of the spiritual traditions say, that what you think you are is based on a tangle of false thoughts and unexamined assumptions. Examine that which you are fighting for with enough honesty and willingness and you might not be so keen to keep it alive.

 

There are parasitic worms which are know to take over the bodies of bugs like caterpillars which then somehow trick the caterpillars into defending the eggs and life of the worms even at the cost of their own lives, they will do anything to fight for the parasites survival to the detriment of their own true autonomy.

[ViscountValmont]

Of course I feel the same "save the cell" instinct that every being feels. Overcoming that urge in the most natural way possible is the goal. One will always feel fear, the question is if one will feel dread. One will always feel pain, the question is if one will always suffer. Our approach to this defines how we deal with existence as a whole. I, now, don't hold on to things anymore. I don't hold on to the idea of my own death, I can control that I don't focus on it, and if I happen across the thought, I am easily relaxed into any tension it creates inside me. I make no judgments on myself for thinking about death, or about death itself, or about what I "must" achieve, or who I should be... I just enjoy whatever I happen to be doing at the time. I have things I want to do, not things I have to do. I realized one day that the same judgments I had on a stone or a wave of water... would hardly be the judgments it would have about itself. And that its understanding would scarcely resemble my own, of anything. And it was this that lead me to see that all my judgments about my own life were irrelevant. All of it. And that the line, "The Tao that can be spoken of, is not the Tao," actually is referring to the labeling of things. Words themselves. That we must stop using words to pretend that they are what we conceive them to be. That they are, 1) without name, and 2) are more complex and important than our words and concepts can convey about them. Human judgment is a fly speck of a drop in the bucket of the events of the cosmos. To put stock it in is a laugh of the highest order.

[Satya]

Edited with quote below

Edited August 15, 2014 by Satya

[Satya]

Open to any knowledge that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis. The writings of the Tao, Confucius, the healing methodology of Qigong and all without mysticism I found informative - worth learning more. This is why I am here.

 

How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

 

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger: Unrealized guitarist

 

SGM B.C.

 

 

• Re specifically:
   

  How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity

  Then, most Zen, Buddhist, Advaita Vedanta, Jnana and Neo-Advaita stuff serves this purpose.

   

  All works by Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Adyashanti, Gangaji, Ramana Mahirishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, A course in miracles, (and more) are self evidently true. The words are axiomatic

   

  that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis.

  so, they're inherently rational, and, they require no belief in anything. They are self evident statements. Scientific wouldn't be the right word here exactly, because, science is generally involved in external phenomena, whilst this stuff is to be examined and verified by yourself. However, it does correlate perfectly with a lot of psychological and psychotherapeutic principles.

   

  I'm a 'mental health clinician/professional', as well as a psychologist, and though he's not trained in these things, I find Eckhart Tolle's writings to be some of the best maps of the human ego there are. The only thing I don't totally sit with are the 'pain bodies', but, I still think there's a good basis for them too. A new earth by him covers some very interesting topics. Also, a course in miracles is interesting (once you get used to the phraseology), it's a brilliant look at the ego. Additionally, Antony De Mello was an enlightened Jesuit Priest AND a trained Psychologist (and he's funny too). His writings and videos are brilliant. All of this stuff will show YOU

   

  How to help

  others

  YOURSELF live with reason, contribution and productivity.

  and give insights into the human condition, etc.

   

  In so doing it will help show you

   

  How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

  Some pure science based books, both by medical doctors, and both easy reading:

   

  Healing without freud or prozac.

   

  The brain that changes itself.

   

  Also, mindfulness based cognitive therapy materials would be good too (it's used by the UKs national health service), and/or any book on cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT; CBT is pretty much like the basic teachings that all wisdom traditions will teach).

   

  If you want factual based information regarding the existence of subtle energies and/or the veracity of the energy practices of wisdom traditions then "Through The Wormhole" is a good documentary series to watch. Latest scientific discoveries discussed, a lot of them empirically prove some of the phenomena that wisdom traditions have been talking about for years.

   

  It is often proved that ancient wisdom is correct, and thousands of years ahead of empirical study.

• Things so far: Meditation/mindfulness: now being incorporated into 3rd wave CBTherapies, as the go to treatments for most mental health problems + pain internationally.
• Fasting: for years said to be bad by medical community, said to be good by the sages for centuries, now it is actively, openly advised for good health and has been shown to contribute to stem cell development.
• Jala Neti: A practice done for years in Yogic tradition. Now being recommended for allergies, nasal problems and anosmia (my mums partner was able to smell for the first time in years after doing it).
• Kalapas: Buddhism noted Kalapas, the smallest bits of matter that blink into and out of existence; saying this thousands of years ago, before any official 'physicists', and or microscopes of any kind. Now it correlates perfectly to quantum physics.
• Observer phenomenon in general.
• Life after death in general: consciousness has been shown to be able to exist outside of the body, and, the brain is thought, to, in scientific terms, be a quantum computer. Various experiments on remote viewing. Various verified reports of patients leaving bodies and quoting discussion of medical team verbatim during operation under heavy anesthesia.
• To see a World in a Grain of Sand And a Heaven in a Wild Flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour. ~ Blake /Basically the whole holographic universe thing has been known for millennia throughout the wisdom traditions, and is now being verified externally/empirically.
• Telepathy is now gaining an empirical basis in research by neuroscientists, MDs and psychologists.
• The quantum world is bananas.
• Physicists tend not to discount any phenomena unless it's been definitively proven wrong. Some things we cannot prove definitively wrong.

Also, here are some peer-reviewed studies on people from wisdom traditions, channeling chi/prana/energy:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408084858.htm

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0058244

 

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v295/n5846/pdf/295234a0.pdf

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2194593

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240

 

http://www.innerfire.nl/files/can-meditation-influence-ans-hopman.pdf

Edited August 15, 2014 by Satya

[Millou]

Hello Satya,

 

I like and very much agree with the comments in your post.

 

Thanks for sharing your references on books and sites.

 

Regards,

Millou.

[KenBrace]

 

Perhaps what you are fighting to keep alive doesn't even exist in any substantial way, that is basically what many of the spiritual traditions say, that what you think you are is based on a tangle of false thoughts and unexamined assumptions. Examine that which you are fighting for with enough honesty and willingness and you might not be so keen to keep it alive.

 

There are parasitic worms which are know to take over the bodies of bugs like caterpillars which then somehow trick the caterpillars into defending the eggs and life of the worms even at the cost of their own lives, they will do anything to fight for the parasites survival to the detriment of their own true autonomy.

What you said sounds to me like an abstract, phyilisophical way to try your best to accept the enevitable.

 

Most people seem to just rely on faith when it comes to death. They don't look info the fact that there way be something else that happens that just non-existence or "heaven". Faith won't change reality though. You can believe that you'll become completely non-existent or go to heaven after death all you want, but it doesn't make it true. I personally am not willing to simply "accept and have faith". Maybe everyone else is though. *shrugs*

[Marblehead]

... not willing to simply "accept and have faith". Maybe everyone else is though. *shrugs*

Well, that makes at least two of us so 'everyone else' isn't.

[ViscountValmont]

I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism.

 

I am Taoist. If you're not, that's fine. But, Taoism IS A PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD FOR ACCEPTING THE INEVITABLE. Taoism only became a bunch of other crap centuries later at the behest of Zhang Daoling.

 

Taoism states that things happen, and that there is nothing we can do about it. The sage does all things while doing nothing. The world changes around us without our doing anything. It is not "predetermination," as in theistic theories. But rather, it is the culmination of a boundless set of events that cannot end any other way than as it is right now. If reality could be different, it WOULD be different. But it is not. Reality begs to differ with our qualms with it by showing us only what can be shown. Taoism is to learn to ACCEPT this reality. Hence, "going with the flow" that Tao is all about. Non-judgment is the essence of Tao.

 

Death is not to be fretted over. No, I don't bother worrying about what comes after life, because it isn't important. We were all unaware of ourselves pre-birth, and that's turned out fine. We are all figuring it out as we go along. We were all tossed into this world without any instruction, given only our parents and their experience in life attempting to navigate and figure it out before us. Whatever happens in death, I will be given the tools to deal with it, just as I have been here. But all evidence seems to point to a vast nothingness. And that is comforting.

 

Life is not a test.

Edited August 16, 2014 by ViscountValmont

[Satya]

Open to any knowledge that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis. The writings of the Tao, Confucius, the healing methodology of Qigong and all without mysticism I found informative - worth learning more. This is why I am here.

 

How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

 

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger: Unrealized guitarist

 

SGM B.C.

I just thought to add last night, Re specifically:

 

Hello! Atheist, Skeptic & Open Minded Here:)

The term atheist is an odd one to me. As with most all things it comes down to language, but, to me, someone saying they don't believe in God is ridiculous, because of the meaning that I (and many others) attribute to the word God. It's understandable that people call themselves atheists as Christianity and a lot of the mainstream Abrahamic religions (rather than their wisdom tradition counterparts, like Kabbalah, Sufism and Gnosis) are often: A: very judgemental, toxic and even violent, and B: (to me) ridiculous in a lot of what they say. For example, that the world is only 1000s of years old, or that God is this deity in human form, or that their omnibenevolent/all-loving God would send tribespeople to hell because they haven't confessed/been-baptised/whatever, even if they hadn't heard of Jesus/Christianity, because they lived isolated from the world, so they weren't ignoring it, but, they literally couldn't know to do these things; that's just bananas to me.

 

Anyway, back to my (and many others') interpretation of what God actually means.

 

Moses describing God's name, he writes that it is: "I Am That, I Am." Which basically translates to consciousness. Pure being. This goes hand in hand with all wisdom traditions (as they all teach the same thing) as being what Truth is, Everything/Nothing, Consciousness. The consciousness/nothingness that witnesses and accommodates and thus concurrently is everything/matter. Just as silence is the ground of all noise. This goes hand in hand with Shiva (consciousness) and Shakti (energy).

 

There are growing theories in mainstream physics that purport that consciousness could be (empirically) the prima materia, the first/prime matter of the universe, or, at least connected. A common example is the observer phenomenon in which the act of our/humans observing matter, alters how that matter behaves (empirically verified); this is one example of the interlink between matter/energy and consciousness. In most wisdom traditions it is said that consciousness/nothingness is immaterial and full of infinite potential. Out of this potential, matter is born/formed (like the big bag, coming form 'nothing').

 

This, to me, also explains the term that: "God made man in his image." This doesn't mean that God is some anthropomorphised guy in the clouds in those paintings, with a beard and a six pack, who made us to look like we do in our PHYSICAL form, it means that God is Consciousness/Totality, and, we too are Consciousness. Primarily, consciousness is what we are, it is the Self; Consciousness = Being/Existence (we wouldn't know ourselves, and, the cosmos wouldn't know itself if Consciousness in self aware form didn't exist), and we're a part of Totality (and really, when the ego disappears, we become complete Totality/indistinguishable from anything).

 

Being an Atheist actually, to me, requires more belief in illusions and delusions than being Spiritual, in a Non-Dual sense. Zen/Advaita/Philosophical-Taoism/Buddhism/Christian-Gnosis/Kabbalah/Sufism, in their Non-Dual teachings on the Self/Truth, all highlight how the ego is non-existent, and, that there really is no self, that there's just pure awareness. And, it doesn't take any faith or belief to verify this; in 5 minutes of inquiring into this issue you can axiomatically deduce that, in fact, indeed, there is no self/person, really, as we understand it. What most people call "me", or would call themselves, is a bunch of Transient or slightly more enduring (but still transient) thoughts/beliefs, and, no belief can be True/Real, because beliefs/thoughts are made up by the mind. Obviously. Belief/thought, specifically belief IN thought is what separates us from reality. Language/thought/belief, BELIEVED IN, is literally like a buffer from reality that inherently/necessarily separates us. There is What Is, what is happening, and then there's our thoughts/judgements/beliefs about it. All of these things are made up. So, what remains when you see through the illusion of thought/belief? Here/now/being/awareness/consciousness. Pure being. Thoughts and language are useful tools to help navigate (conceptually/mentally and physically/geographically), but as soon as you believe in the labels/names of the things to which you're referring to as being the reality of the things/reality itself, that, to me, is illusion/un-enlightenment.

 

So, an atheist who believes in their thoughts/beliefs/personality/anything is actually more identified and involved with illusions and believes blindly in more stuff than a Non-Dual spiritual person.