Hello! Atheist, Skeptic & Open Minded Here:)

[Satya]

I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism.

 

I am Taoist. If you're not, that's fine. But, Taoism IS A PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD FOR ACCEPTING THE INEVITABLE. Taoism only became a bunch of other crap centuries later at the behest of Zhang Daoling.

 

Taoism states that things happen, and that there is nothing we can do about it. The sage does all things while doing nothing. The world changes around us without our doing anything. It is not "predetermination," as in theistic theories. But rather, it is the culmination of a boundless set of events that cannot end any other way than as it is right now. If reality could be different, it WOULD be different. But it is not. Reality begs to differ with our qualms with it by showing us only what can be shown. Taoism is to learn to ACCEPT this reality. Hence, "going with the flow" that Tao is all about. Non-judgment is the essence of Tao.

 

Death is not to be fretted over. No, I don't bother worrying about what comes after life, because it isn't important. We were all unaware of ourselves pre-birth, and that's turned out fine. We are all figuring it out as we go along. We were all tossed into this world without any instruction, given only our parents and their experience in life attempting to navigate and figure it out before us. Whatever happens in death, I will be given the tools to deal with it, just as I have been here. But all evidence seems to point to a vast nothingness. And that is comforting.

 

Life is not a test.

Re: your post, you might find this topic interesting: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35922-how-does-all-of-this-neidanneigongqigongenergy-stuff-relate-to-non-dual-truth-and-enlightenment/ It discusses the differences, similarities, connections and disconnections on/between philosophical Taoism and Energetic Work Taoism.

Re:

I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism.

From my brief readings into Taoist scripture years ago, I would have said the same thing, but, Qigong, Neigong, Neidan, Acupuncture, Massage, Herbal Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, many Martial Arts ALL originate from the Taoist world. Yes there's philosophical Taoism, but, there's also Taoist tradition/practice/Taoism that examines the workings of the Universe (you could say consensus reality), in its subtle energetic forms, and describes practices to work with these energies for health and enlightenment. Just like there's Ashtanga Yoga, Kriya Yoga, Hatha Yoga (which all work with energies) and there's Jnana Yoga, Kashmir Shaivism, Advaita Vedanta, which discusses the Non-Dual nature of reality, and is philosophical, and in which the practices involve contemplation and self inquiry, rather than working with energies.

[Jetsun]

What you said sounds to me like an abstract, phyilisophical way to try your best to accept the enevitable.

 

Most people seem to just rely on faith when it comes to death. They don't look info the fact that there way be something else that happens that just non-existence or "heaven". Faith won't change reality though. You can believe that you'll become completely non-existent or go to heaven after death all you want, but it doesn't make it true. I personally am not willing to simply "accept and have faith". Maybe everyone else is though. *shrugs*

What I said isn't an abstract philosophical concept, it is a simple invitation to enquire into what is really true.

 

What is really true about the nature of your identity, and the only way to pursue that enquiry is to look without assuming you already know and to not turn away when you see something which condtradics your existing conditioned beliefs.

[Satya]

What you said sounds to me like an abstract, phyilisophical way to try your best to accept the enevitable.

 

What I said isn't an abstract philosophical concept, it is a simple invitation to enquire into what is really true.

I agree, self inquiry, Advaita, Non-Dualism, Zen, Truth Talk, etc, is NOT abstract at all, in FACT by its very definition it is the least abstract approach there is, full stop. Everything else requires abstractions, belief, whereas self inquiry consists of challenging ALL belief, ALL thought, ALL abstractions, and seeing through their immateriality, their falseness, and consequently getting rid of them (though, they get rid of themselves).

 

A good book on all of this stuff is "I Am That." by Nisargadatta Maharaj. If you search for "I am that pdf" online then I'm sure there'll be many online versions available, and the physical book isn't very expensive. You can read it from cover to cover or just section/chapter/entry at a time (it's a well used book that's often by my bed rather than on the shelf). ALSO, though these insights, being axiomatic, do not require a lineage (Eckhart Tolle, Jeff Foster, Ramana Mahirishi, just some examples of people waking up by themselves), you Taoist guys seem to love the lineage thing ( ), so, Nisargadatta's work is a good source to go by, because there's a lineage there: http://nisargadatta.org/pages/navnath_sampradaya.html

[GrandmasterP]

I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism.

 

I am Taoist. If you're not, that's fine. But, Taoism IS A PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD FOR ACCEPTING THE INEVITABLE. Taoism only became a bunch of other crap centuries later at the behest of Zhang Daoling.

 

Taoism states that things happen, and that there is nothing we can do about it. The sage does all things while doing nothing. The world changes around us without our doing anything. It is not "predetermination," as in theistic theories. But rather, it is the culmination of a boundless set of events that cannot end any other way than as it is right now. If reality could be different, it WOULD be different. But it is not. Reality begs to differ with our qualms with it by showing us only what can be shown. Taoism is to learn to ACCEPT this reality. Hence, "going with the flow" that Tao is all about. Non-judgment is the essence of Tao.

 

Death is not to be fretted over. No, I don't bother worrying about what comes after life, because it isn't important. We were all unaware of ourselves pre-birth, and that's turned out fine. We are all figuring it out as we go along. We were all tossed into this world without any instruction, given only our parents and their experience in life attempting to navigate and figure it out before us. Whatever happens in death, I will be given the tools to deal with it, just as I have been here. But all evidence seems to point to a vast nothingness. And that is comforting.

 

Life is not a test.

 

Got it in one there Viscount.

Outstanding post.

Kudos.

 

[ViscountValmont]

I'm well aware of the energetic work within Taoism. It's mostly falsely attributed garbage by the Celestial Masters cult, which had a Jesus-Type-Crazy man prophet seeing visions at their helm. No thanks. (Immortality was attributed to Taoism by this insane cult. Real Taoism doesn't care about longevity and living forever)

I sense that I am one of the highest Taiji players here at the forum. Not because I am so good, but because I see a fundamental lack of understanding in most of people's posts about how to achieve martial ability with the internal arts... So yes, I'm fully versed in what each of the energetic approaches of Taoism are for:

 

Qigong is for bodily awareness, nothing more. Stop confusing it with spiritual practices. Neidan is the real, closed door system for energy work in Tao. Neigong is for giving the practitioner weird abilities like bioelectric shocks, or Yin Yang Universal Energy Palm (cold and hot strikes).

 

Satya, your post on atheists and god is something you're entitled to... but it's short sighted. I no more engage in "more delusion" as a result of my atheism than you do in using words to describe your own thoughts and opinions on this website. You are still just as big a slave to words as everyone else. This is the problem with Buddhist teachings. They feel they should RID themselves of these types of things. Tao says you can't. That is the Yin and Yang of things. We will always be dependent on words, we will never "evolve" past it, or "devolve" back into a state where we don't use them. We always fluctuate back and forth between the use of them, and not: Yin and Yang. That's all. Words are not Tao, it's true. But neither is god.

 

 

 

And thank you Grandmaster P :-)

Edited August 16, 2014 by ViscountValmont

[ChiDragon]

Open to any knowledge that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis. The writings of the Tao, Confucius, the healing methodology of Qigong and all without mysticism I found informative - worth learning more. This is why I am here.

 

How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

 

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger: Unrealized guitarist

 

SGM B.C.

 

Welcome, SGM B.C.

I am glad that you are here and here is why I'm here.....

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/user/31611

[Satya]

I'm well aware of the energetic work within Taoism. It's mostly falsely attributed garbage by the Celestial Masters cult, which had a Jesus-Type-Crazy man prophet seeing visions at their helm. No thanks. (Immortality was attributed to Taoism by this insane cult. Real Taoism doesn't care about longevity and living forever)

 

I sense that I am one of the highest Taiji players here at the forum. Not because I am so good, but because I see a fundamental lack of understanding in most of people's posts about how to achieve martial ability with the internal arts... So yes, I'm fully versed in what each of the energetic approaches of Taoism are for:

 

Qigong is for bodily awareness, nothing more. Stop confusing it with spiritual practices. Neidan is the real, closed door system for energy work in Tao. Neigong is for giving the practitioner weird abilities like bioelectric shocks, or Yin Yang Universal Energy Palm (cold and hot strikes).

 

Satya, your post on atheists and god is something you're entitled to... but it's short sighted. I no more engage in "more delusion" as a result of my atheism than you do in using words to describe your own thoughts and opinions on this website. You are still just as big a slave to words as everyone else. This is the problem with Buddhist teachings. They feel they should RID themselves of these types of things. Tao says you can't. That is the Yin and Yang of things. We will always be dependent on words, we will never "evolve" past it, or "devolve" back into a state where we don't use them. We always fluctuate back and forth between the use of them, and not: Yin and Yang. That's all. Words are not Tao, it's true. But neither is god.

I get the impression from the reply that you felt patronised and even offended by my post.

 

My apologies if this is the case. You have a fairly low post count and are incredibly new to the forums. The only post of yours that I saw and was responding to was beginning with: "I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism." and my explanations were just addressing this, with no condescension or malice intended, as this statement gave the impression that you didn't know about the energetic side. So, do you agree with the practices of Neidan then?

Satya, your post on atheists and god is something you're entitled to... but it's short sighted. I no more engage in "more delusion" as a result of my atheism than you do in using words to describe your own thoughts and opinions on this website. You are still just as big a slave to words as everyone else. This is the problem with Buddhist teachings. They feel they should RID themselves of these types of things. Tao says you can't. That is the Yin and Yang of things. We will always be dependent on words, we will never "evolve" past it, or "devolve" back into a state where we don't use them. We always fluctuate back and forth between the use of them, and not: Yin and Yang. That's all. Words are not Tao, it's true. But neither is god.

My post on atheism was not directed at you at all, as is quite clear from the post. To me the post doesn't seem short sighted at all, but, quite comprehensive. I wasn't talking about a "me" and a "you", I was simply positing factual information (re: abrahamic text), alongside logically reasoned analysis and axiomatic conclusions. If someone believes in words as reality, rather than acknowledging that they're just words made up by the mind to describe reality, then that person is more engaged in illusion/delusion than someone who doesn't. In this case, if you were to attempt to quantify it, then you could say that fundamentalist christians are incredibly deluded by abstract thought, atheists who do not question the veracity/veridicality of belief/thought/language/do not question what is True are engaged in a fair amount of delusion/illusion, and that Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Buddhist, Christian Gnostic, Sufi and philosophical Taoist (and so on) masters who have reached a kind of critical mass, and who never/incredibly rarely get pulled into believing in abstract thought as being reality itself, are the least identified with illusion. There's no judgement or criticism here, just, to me, axiomatic statements. I'm constantly getting pulled into this, constantly forgetting, but I do have moments where I remember and the illusion is seen through, and they're always very peaceful. Also, I'm not a Buddhist, Taoist, or anything. If anything my reading background is primarily from a Hindu/Vedic/Yogic background, but even that's variable. I just do what works and read what makes sense.

 

You are still just as big a slave to words as everyone else. This is the problem with Buddhist teachings. They feel they should RID themselves of these types of things. Tao says you can't. That is the Yin and Yang of things. We will always be dependent on words, we will never "evolve" past it, or "devolve" back into a state where we don't use them. We always fluctuate back and forth between the use of them, and not: Yin and Yang.

Again, I'm not saying anything in a superior/inferior way, and what I'm talking about doesn't require any devolving whatsoever at all; you could say it involves a sort of evolving (also, in however many thousands of years, as a civilisation, we could evolve to state where we use headgear that translates brainwaves into code received by headgear which provides subtle meaning and use that for communication, so, I always say, never say never [admittedly this would still be some kind of language, but, I'm not talking about not using language anyway]).

 

You can utilise words without getting pulled into mistaking them for the reality of the thing you're describing. It's like using a map. Most of us (me included) are so conditioned regarding thought/belief/language that it's like we mistake the map on the piece of paper for the places themselves, when, actually, it's just a map to be used for navigation.

 

"The day you teach the child the name of the bird, the child will never see that bird again." ~ Krishnamurti

 

Also, re: Abrahamic traditions and the concept of self inquiry, Truth and God, these are some nice quotes from a Christian Mystic:

 

 

“Only the hand that erases can write the true thing.” ― Meister Eckhart

 

“Nothing in all creation is so like God as stillness.” ― Meister Eckhart

 

Reading your previous posts now, it seems we have some similar interests re: what is empirically verified and what comes from these traditions, however, I get the impression that whereas I (engaging in consensus reality) think that there is yet more phenomena that exists that correlates with these traditions that science cannot yet verify due to limited or non existent resources (or we never will be able to, due it's subjective and un-empirical or non-dual/(to the mind)-paradoxical nature), for example subtler energies (we're finding new particles/energy/phenomena all the time), different dimensions, astral/causal bodies, etc; whereas I (regarding consensus reality) think these things, I get the impression that you do not, and that you only believe what science can currently, completely and definitively verify. Is that right?

Edited August 17, 2014 by Satya

[joeblast]

Open to any knowledge that is rational and has the scientific method in its analysis. The writings of the Tao, Confucius, the healing methodology of Qigong and all without mysticism I found informative - worth learning more. This is why I am here.

 

How to help others live with reason, contribution and productivity.

 

Retired Sergeant Major, Special Forces - Airborne Ranger: Unrealized guitarist

 

SGM B.C.

It all starts with conditioning the breath - from there you work to attenuate all neuromuscular noise, drop flow of air beneath threshold of turbulence, attain utter and complete stillness. This is the fundamental safety mechanism to integrate more powerful practices, enhance the clarity of the mind, etc, etc...

 

The amplitude of ability you are able to harness is highly correlated to the depth of meditation you are able to attain.

 

I found it amusing the viscount doesnt "believe in qi" but believes in the effects of neigong. One may only split words and hairs so much.

[KenBrace]

What I said isn't an abstract philosophical concept, it is a simple invitation to enquire into what is really true.

 

What is really true about the nature of your identity, and the only way to pursue that enquiry is to look without assuming you already know and to not turn away when you see something which condtradics your existing conditioned beliefs.

So...... You'd rather just accept the fact that you'll be left with nothing but an empty yin spirit after death and likely get reincarnated, instead of trying to do something about it?

[nightswallow]

Science, as wonderful as it is will never give us a complete answer to the Mystery of Life! One must go beyond the mind to find that answer! Awakening, Recognition, Enlightenment, whatever you want to call it........ will never be answered by science either, as science is ever limited. If one would become full....... one must first become empty. This grand illusion we call Life is but a dream, no different than the dreaming state when one sleeps. Lose the ego and one will find God, Ultimate Reality, Realization... whatever you wish to call it. The word is not the thing.

[dawei]

I'm no longer sure exactly what tradition you people study. But it isn't Taoism.

 

I am Taoist. If you're not, that's fine. But, Taoism IS A PHILOSOPHICAL METHOD FOR ACCEPTING THE INEVITABLE. Taoism only became a bunch of other crap centuries later at the behest of Zhang Daoling.

 

I'm well aware of the energetic work within Taoism. It's mostly falsely attributed garbage by the Celestial Masters cult, which had a Jesus-Type-Crazy man prophet seeing visions at their helm. No thanks. (Immortality was attributed to Taoism by this insane cult. Real Taoism doesn't care about longevity and living forever)

 

Welcome to TTB

 

I think you present a truncated history. There was shamanism, and a spiritual and energetic prior to the more philosophical methods; you simply mention the Religious methods which come later.

 

There have been plenty of discussions on this but my point is always going to be that whatever box someone wants to put around what is Tao[ism] is a box of their own making. Remove any boundary (including historical ones) and then one will be more likely to discover what is Taoism.

[Brian]

 

 

 

Welcome to TTB

 

I think you present a truncated history. There was shamanism, and a spiritual and energetic prior to the more philosophical methods; you simply mention the Religious methods which come later.

 

There have been plenty of discussions on this but my point is always going to be that whatever box someone wants to put around what is Tao[ism] is a box of their own making. Remove any boundary (including historical ones) and then one will be more likely to discover what is Taoism.

^^^

 

The implications are vast and should quell much argument.

 

 

 

 

 

Won't have that effect, mind you, but I appreciated it, anyhow.

[nightswallow]

Fragments

Shimmering shards of humanity

Suspended, between birth and death

Slowly turning, from darkness then to light

Broken……. though still reflecting

Each shard, turning slowly…….. orienting

Towards the blissful center

Awaiting final placement

Back into the eternal Whole

[ViscountValmont]

Welcome to TTB

 

I think you present a truncated history. There was shamanism, and a spiritual and energetic prior to the more philosophical methods; you simply mention the Religious methods which come later.

 

There have been plenty of discussions on this but my point is always going to be that whatever box someone wants to put around what is Tao[ism] is a box of their own making. Remove any boundary (including historical ones) and then one will be more likely to discover what is Taoism.

 

 

Welcome to TTB

 

I think you present a truncated history. There was shamanism, and a spiritual and energetic prior to the more philosophical methods; you simply mention the Religious methods which come later.

 

There have been plenty of discussions on this but my point is always going to be that whatever box someone wants to put around what is Tao[ism] is a box of their own making. Remove any boundary (including historical ones) and then one will be more likely to discover what is Taoism.

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of its shamanistic history. But you must see the period in which Tao itself came into its own. You cannot present Taoism in any sort of singular form, but rather accept it for its form at the time in which one refers. The shamanistic period is not Tao, it is a predecessor of Tao. It has many of the same or similar energetic systems and even shares similar beliefs. But as it came unto its own definition after people left "the wild," to put it generically, and it became a philosophical method, combined with energetic practices which set it apart from its shamanistic past, and distinguishes it from its religious offshoots and evolutions later.

 

Though I do agree. Putting Tao in a box is like puttin' Baby in a corner. You just don't do it ;-) But that's actually my point. I see that many people on here bog themselves down with factors of Tao that are unnecessary or just flat don't actually belong. Tao fully accepts any practice... but if in this "dream" of Tao, I decide I want bigger pectoral muscles, I cannot practice watchmaking to get them. While in the dream, we must follow its rules to get results we want. Those results do not matter, and our wanting them is unimportant. But we, the one source, play this game for the sake of the thrill of individuality. And so one cannot achieve "awakening" with an incorrect worldview. Hence, those being awake, and those not. We acknowledge there is at least an illusory difference. And while the habit of putting Tao in a box is something Tao is all about ridding oneself of, we realize that there is what works and what doesn't on a practical level.

 

I simply make a point for others to understand that I practice the Tao of Laotzu and Zhuangtzu. The kind they practiced, which was a philosophical Tao, meant to alleviate suffering and to explain the universe. Something that it does beautifully if understood correctly and implemented correctly. However, what I also attempt to do is cut through the bullshit that these early writers muddied their works with.

 

It was a secret, and it still is. And I don't like it. But, the ancients didn't like giving away their insights without making the subject work for it. I think that is something that came from a time period that no longer exists. Or rather, many of our current societies provide a secure enough atmosphere that the walls of secrecy can come down. And I like to try to make the Daojia (not Daojiao) more accessible to the average person. To realize that the Tao that Laotzu and Chuangtzu speak of is not meant to have used Yogic practices until we leave our bodies and so on. We can do those things, and I think they're an important part of spiritual development. But Tao is not meant to be spiritually escaped. We are meant to see the beauty of everyday normal consciousness, the "miracle" (I don't like words that smack of divinity) of our existence, and the strangeness of reality... and just how lucky we are to be here.

 

The enlightenment I have received has been a glorious re-interpretation of the world around me. And all of my insights have been of a "physical" nature, one could say. The allay of my suffering was found in literal, physical relaxation inside my body. Everything I have achieved follows strictly by Tao principles of Yin and Yang, and my Taiji being "internal," it also follows this guideline as well. It's very strange, the irony I have experienced. I have continued my practice over the years, always expecting one thing, only to get the result I want but for a different reason! I never expected these insights, but they have been revealed to me nonetheless. And so, I give them freely to others who would like to benefit from them. I offer an eminently practical and accessible Tao with all the fruits the "internal arts" have always promised- martial ability, health, and the keys to a happy life.

[dawei]

Yes, I'm aware of its shamanistic history. But you must see the period in which Tao itself came into its own. You cannot present Taoism in any sort of singular form, but rather accept it for its form at the time in which one refers. The shamanistic period is not Tao, it is a predecessor of Tao. It has many of the same or similar energetic systems and even shares similar beliefs. But as it came unto its own definition after people left "the wild," to put it generically, and it became a philosophical method, combined with energetic practices which set it apart from its shamanistic past, and distinguishes it from its religious offshoots and evolutions later.

 

Tao is a generative unfolding without boundary. IMO, as soon as we say what Tao is not, then we are back to boxing Tao and looking outside the box.

 

I feel you want to wait on the historical explanation and formulation of Tao as a philosophy to think that is when people knew it. Everyone knows it from birth but loses it quickly due to cultural assimilation. Tao has been known form the inception. The universe was aware of it before we were.

 

 

But we, the one source, play this game for the sake of the thrill of individuality. And so one cannot achieve "awakening" with an incorrect worldview. Hence, those being awake, and those not. We acknowledge there is at least an illusory difference. And while the habit of putting Tao in a box is something Tao is all about ridding oneself of, we realize that there is what works and what doesn't on a practical level.

 

Now your taking this to an area of 'awakened'. Maybe this is where the box comes in.

 

I simply make a point for others to understand that I practice the Tao of Laotzu and Zhuangtzu. The kind they practiced, which was a philosophical Tao, meant to alleviate suffering and to explain the universe.

Suffering... Now it is sounding Buddhist. If one flows with life... it just is. No need for labels like suffering.

 

And I like to try to make the Daojia (not Daojiao) more accessible to the average person. To realize that the Tao that Laotzu and Chuangtzu speak of is not meant to have used Yogic practices until we leave our bodies and so on. We can do those things, and I think they're an important part of spiritual development. But Tao is not meant to be spiritually escaped. We are meant to see the beauty of everyday normal consciousness, the "miracle" (I don't like words that smack of divinity) of our existence, and the strangeness of reality... and just how lucky we are to be here.

I don't make this distinction... If one leads to two, then two leads to four... it never ends.

 

It is not luck we are here... it is simply the Way. On a spiritual level, it is a discovery of destiny.

 

The enlightenment I have received has been a glorious re-interpretation of the world around me. And all of my insights have been of a "physical" nature, one could say. The allay of my suffering was found in literal, physical relaxation inside my body. Everything I have achieved follows strictly by Tao principles of Yin and Yang, and my Taiji being "internal," it also follows this guideline as well. It's very strange, the irony I have experienced. I have continued my practice over the years, always expecting one thing, only to get the result I want but for a different reason! I never expected these insights, but they have been revealed to me nonetheless. And so, I give them freely to others who would like to benefit from them. I offer an eminently practical and accessible Tao with all the fruits the "internal arts" have always promised- martial ability, health, and the keys to a happy life.

 

Nice to hear of your insights

[ViscountValmont]

You've certainly made a lot of criticisms without actually saying anything meaningful. I already explained the reason for understanding distinctions. To pretend you don't see them at all is ridiculous. And suffering IS something intentionally addressed in Taoism, whether that sounds Buddhist to you or not isn't my concern.

 

And the box comes from people who try to intentionally skip around using a word for what they mean for fear that it will make them look unenlightened. It's a stupid game, and people see through it. Talk about enlightenment openly, stop trying to pretend that the mark of an enlightened person is to not use a label for it. We all get it, labels are not the way to understand reality. But they are a part of it. And if you're so hell bent on dispensing with labels and words, I have NO idea why you're on this site. It's hypocritical. Either discuss things, or don't. But don't come on here to tell people discussing things by using words and labels is the wrong thing to do, as you engage in discussion. Discussion requires words. We're not telepathic. So, until you come up with a better way to represent the overarching idea of what enlightenment is, both incorrect interpretations of it as well as its subjective actualization, words are going to have to do for now.

[dawei]

To pretend you don't see them at all is ridiculous.

 

I don't pretend anything as such. I can see labels everywhere... and i see people tend to get tangled in them. One can talk of them but not need them like a life-support.

 

I have NO idea why you're on this site. It's hypocritical. Either discuss things, or don't. But don't come on here to tell people discussing things by using words and labels is the wrong thing to do, as you engage in discussion.

 

Interesting attitude. Thanks for sharing it.

 

Discussion requires words. We're not telepathic. So, until you come up with a better way to represent the overarching idea of what enlightenment is, both incorrect interpretations of it as well as its subjective actualization, words are going to have to do for now.

 

Maybe we should be telepathic. And I think some cultivation (or direct intervention) can open up this. Until one can truly understand and see another, words are needed.

[ViscountValmont]

Right.

[deci belle]

Telepathy is not a big deal.

 

Enlightenment is not an idea.

[dawei]

Telepathy is not a big deal.

 

Enlightenment is not an idea.

 

Very true... but also consider what happens in the extreme exchange... treading water in an ocean of words, labels, and concepts all attempting to make sense of it all.

 

Maybe this is fodder for another thread

[nightswallow]

 

But don't come on here to tell people discussing things by using words and labels is the wrong thing to do, as you engage in discussion. Discussion requires words. We're not telepathic. So, until you come up with a better way to represent the overarching idea of what enlightenment is, both incorrect interpretations of it as well as its subjective actualization, words are going to have to do for now.

Words can be, and are important..... but even more important is a sensitivity to the "unspoken" that goes back and forth between people. It has to do with caring, compassion, journeying together.... whatever you want to call it. It goes beyond the limit of words because we are all human and share a commonality. Sitting in silence with another, there can be a great deal of communication taking place, if both persons are truly aware and " in the moment!"

[ViscountValmont]

Describing enlightenment to someone who is not... is an idea to them. Which is why they must dispense with words to experience it. But, no one lives outside of words, and especially an experience so profound WILL be described to others. I already explained that an awakening is a reinterpretation of your subjective world (and before you bog all of us down with a bunch of New Age terminology designed to avoid defining what something actually is... yes, this is what enlightenment actually is- reinterpretation of your worldview. It isn't mystical, as much as you all want it to be). You guys need to read and connect more deeply. Telepathy is a big deal, because you're on a Forum, using text based words to communicate. If you could communicate telepathically, you would. Case closed.