Recognizing Reality

[Bearded Dragon]

Yes, I think I know what you mean: You cannot become enlightened because the real you is the awareness that per definition already is. And therefore, enlightenment refers to a false self that cracks and fades away as soon as the real self takes over. Or rather, the real self does not take over because it does not do anything. It simply is, and the false self is no more. And therefore enlightenment does not exist because there is nothing that can be enlightened. There is only the awareness that is, and the delusions that no longer repeat their own patterns of self-reference.

 

Yep .

[Phenomniverse]

Yes, I think I know what you mean: You cannot become enlightened because the real you is the awareness that per definition already is. And therefore, enlightenment refers to a false self that cracks and fades away as soon as the real self takes over. Or rather, the real self does not take over because it does not do anything. It simply is, and the false self is no more. And therefore enlightenment does not exist because there is nothing that can be enlightened. There is only the awareness that is, and the delusions that no longer repeat their own patterns of self-reference.

 

If I've understood it right then that is actually a very good point.

 

But there's something I don't understand about Deci's posts. If you want people to get the idea then there's no need for doing it in ways that create unnecessary irritation and sadness in them (irritation is sadness). She could be just as effective - perhaps even more - if she simply stated things in a relaxed and friendly way. There's something about her posts: The overly intellectual language, the constant re-editing of her posts, the deliberate flaunting of her sexuality, the belittling of other posters. All of this has the mark of an ego that *wants* to be perceived in a certain way; that wants to be desired and admired; an ego that craves attention and high social value; an ego that sits in front of the computer and thoroughly enjoys and wants this dance that is put on.

 

I think Deci has understood a fundamental point about enlightenment. But I'm not sure she lives it. Because if she did, she would realize that some of her posts cause unnecessary sadness. And the only thing that is going to accomplish is to drive away those who react to their own ego's perception of insults. Such people could be moved to enlightenment quicker by showing an appreciation and understanding for their ideas, followed by one's own and more complex idea of enlightenment. Thereby they would not automatically reject your ideas due to their ego, but would gently be convinced of the inherent truth in your own and more complex belief. Quicker enlightenment, with less sadness.

 

And my guess is that those are the ones she is pretending to "enlight" isn't it? If not, there would be no need for her posting this thread in this forum.

 

Whether Deci is enlightened or not is anyones guess, that's for her to figure out. But her posts certainly have a power to point one in the direction of the recognition of reality that she speaks of, and not just in a conceptual sense. I think her mild ascerbity is part of her charm. She's more Kali than Kuan Yin, which is great if you're ready to have your head cut off. Maybe not if you just need some mild water poured on your head. In which case, go find a Kuan Yin. Deci wields a flaming wisdom sword. Make the most of it. If she wants to walk around in 5 inch stilletos (or are they flip-flops?) and a $500 bra stalking the back alleys of online forums cutting off heads and recruiting sleeper agents for a revolution of consciousness, I personally am cool with that. She's like a character from a Grant Morrison comic. Maybe you're right, she might be pretentious and caught up in her own identity like the rest of us, but even if she is she has something to offer.

[3bob]

Whether Deci is enlightened or not is anyones guess, that's for her to figure out. But her posts certainly have a power to point one in the direction of the recognition of reality that she speaks of, and not just in a conceptual sense. I think her mild ascerbity is part of her charm. She's more Kali than Kuan Yin, which is great if you're ready to have your head cut off. Maybe not if you just need some mild water poured on your head. In which case, go find a Kuan Yin. Deci wields a flaming wisdom sword. Make the most of it. If she wants to walk around in 5 inch stilletos (or are they flip-flops?) and a $500 bra stalking the back alleys of online forums cutting off heads and recruiting sleeper agents for a revolution of consciousness, I personally am cool with that. She's like a character from a Grant Morrison comic. Maybe you're right, she might be pretentious and caught up in her own identity like the rest of us, but even if she is she has something to offer.

 

such learning also applies to wrestling with demons, for in doing so one can learn lots of their moves. (if they survive)

[3bob]

Yes, I think I know what you mean: You cannot become enlightened because the real you is the awareness that per definition already is. And therefore, enlightenment refers to a false self that cracks and fades away as soon as the real self takes over. Or rather, the real self does not take over because it does not do anything. It simply is, and the false self is no more. And therefore enlightenment does not exist because there is nothing that can be enlightened. There is only the awareness that is, and the delusions that no longer repeat their own patterns of self-reference.

 

If I've understood it right then that is actually a very good point.

 

But there's something I don't understand about Deci's posts. If you want people to get the idea then there's no need for doing it in ways that create unnecessary irritation and sadness in them (irritation is sadness). She could be just as effective - perhaps even more - if she simply stated things in a relaxed and friendly way. There's something about her posts: The overly intellectual language, the constant re-editing of her posts, the deliberate flaunting of her sexuality, the belittling of other posters. All of this has the mark of an ego that *wants* to be perceived in a certain way; that wants to be desired and admired; an ego that craves attention and high social value; an ego that sits in front of the computer and thoroughly enjoys and wants this dance that is put on.

 

I think Deci has understood a fundamental point about enlightenment. But I'm not sure she lives it. Because if she did, she would realize that some of her posts cause unnecessary sadness. And the only thing that is going to accomplish is to drive away those who react to their own ego's perception of insults. Such people could be moved to enlightenment quicker by showing an appreciation and understanding for their ideas, followed by one's own and more complex idea of enlightenment. Thereby they would not automatically reject your ideas due to their ego, but would gently be convinced of the inherent truth in your own and more complex belief. Quicker enlightenment, with less sadness.

 

And my guess is that those are the ones she is pretending to "enlight" isn't it? If not, there would be no need for her posting this thread in this forum.

 

hopefully you won't mind but I'd add that yes, the real Self already is (with use of that term causing some to maybe jerk) but the matrix of soul or soul matrix for the real Self to manifest is evolving to a state of enlightenment to fully synchronize with what already is. (thus the Self not remaining just or only potential in transcendent state)

Edited August 28, 2014 by 3bob

[Perceiver]

Whether Deci is enlightened or not is anyones guess, that's for her to figure out. But her posts certainly have a power to point one in the direction of the recognition of reality that she speaks of, and not just in a conceptual sense. I think her mild ascerbity is part of her charm. She's more Kali than Kuan Yin, which is great if you're ready to have your head cut off. Maybe not if you just need some mild water poured on your head. In which case, go find a Kuan Yin. Deci wields a flaming wisdom sword. Make the most of it. If she wants to walk around in 5 inch stilletos (or are they flip-flops?) and a $500 bra stalking the back alleys of online forums cutting off heads and recruiting sleeper agents for a revolution of consciousness, I personally am cool with that. She's like a character from a Grant Morrison comic. Maybe you're right, she might be pretentious and caught up in her own identity like the rest of us, but even if she is she has something to offer.

 

I agree.

 

But this thread is not about enlightenment. This thread is about her.

 

It's comical. She's trying so bad to seem enlightened - to seem non-ego attached. Yet her own behavior gives away her true intentions.

 

An enlightened person would have said the exact same thing much simpler and quicker. It would have easened the burden for everyone, including herself. Plus it would have avoided the sadness created in the posters who questioned her ideas and got belittled as a result. And she would have no need for all the props she uses to boost her own perceived social value. Bras and stilettos.. Give me a break.. It's comical. It's no surprise that exactly those two were chosen. It's the direct way to get the attention of men; to get their craving and thereby sit back and let your ego enjoy the supposed higher social status that it just created for itself. Another cycle of self-reference all in the name of ending it, of course. That's why it's so unwillingly funny.

 

It's like the hipster who wants so badly to be perceived as being non-reactive to the outside world. The hipster who trots down the street with chronically raised eyebrows and a deliberately ironic look on his face. As if he does not care about fashion, trends or ultimately the opinions of other people. Yet in his visible clinging to this self-created hierarchy he reveals his own deep dependence about other people's belief. If he was so non-reactive to begin with, he would have no need to flaunt it. It would simply be.

 

Same thing about Deci. She creates a thread about what reality is and how the ego has nothing to do with it. But all of her writing and props are in the end created to serve her own ego. Her own self-created and self-referential hierarchy. Even her profile name implies it. If she was so enlightened, there would be no need for all of these things. Instead, there would be simply a smile, and a great understanding and empty interest that is endlessly infatuated with everything that is in this world. Her writing style would show that. Instead, it shows an obviously intelligent woman sitting in front of her computer creating digital bras and stilettos all in the effort to "achieve something". And that is not enlightened.

 

But that being said, she does have something to offer. I enjoy reading her posts, unwillingly comical as they may be. And I would encourage her to continue making them. Partly because they're educational. Partly because they are some of the funniest ego-dances I've ever witnessed.

[manitou]

3bob - I'm hoping that one day you experience the Oneness of all paths. You will.

[Daeluin]

Sometimes words of truth are simple, flowing like water to the lowest paths, to mingle among the masses, even as the subtlety of simplicity flows unperceived by the masses.

 

Perhaps deci belle's words stand out more like a towering spire of rock, a pillar of brightness that must be climbed up, words whose subtlety may not be easily slipped past unknowing, but must be held to by choice and effort expended to understand. The top is an eyrie, a bastion not easily reached, and many will fall in their attempts to climb up. Thus it seems to be in db's threads frequently heard are the shouts of those who fall.

 

Myself I've merely been looking with my spyglass, not daring to take the climb just yet, aware of the dangers and sensing the rewards. Not a necessary climb - after all the same truths may be found in the lowlands hiding in plain sight - but I like adventure too!

[nestentrie]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger."

― Gildor Inglorion

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

(S)talking the back alleys of online forums cutting off heads and recruiting sleeper agents for a revolution of consciousness, I personally am cool with that. She's like a character from a Grant Morrison comic.

 

...

[deci belle]

http://lezboyenne.tumblr.com/image/96039381013

Who is the friend who has no ears to hear?

ed note: add a new picture of deci's Rockabilly rig!!

Edited August 29, 2014 by deci belle

[deci belle]

The classics have been saying the same thing for thousands and thousands of years, Perceiver. What's so hard about it?

 

And who is trying so hard to sound discerning of what is not enlightenment with the perspective of ignorance, hmmm?

 

Should you wish to address the OP, you will find that it is people like you who cannot leave me out of the discussion.

 

 

ed note: add Perceiver's name

Edited August 28, 2014 by deci belle

[Phenomniverse]

I agree.

 

But this thread is not about enlightenment. This thread is about her.

 

It's comical. She's trying so bad to seem enlightened - to seem non-ego attached. Yet her own behavior gives away her true intentions.

 

An enlightened person would have said the exact same thing much simpler and quicker. It would have easened the burden for everyone, including herself. Plus it would have avoided the sadness created in the posters who questioned her ideas and got belittled as a result. And she would have no need for all the props she uses to boost her own perceived social value. Bras and stilettos.. Give me a break.. It's comical. It's no surprise that exactly those two were chosen. It's the direct way to get the attention of men; to get their craving and thereby sit back and let your ego enjoy the supposed higher social status that it just created for itself. Another cycle of self-reference all in the name of ending it, of course. That's why it's so unwillingly funny.

 

It's like the hipster who wants so badly to be perceived as being non-reactive to the outside world. The hipster who trots down the street with chronically raised eyebrows and a deliberately ironic look on his face. As if he does not care about fashion, trends or ultimately the opinions of other people. Yet in his visible clinging to this self-created hierarchy he reveals his own deep dependence about other people's belief. If he was so non-reactive to begin with, he would have no need to flaunt it. It would simply be.

 

Same thing about Deci. She creates a thread about what reality is and how the ego has nothing to do with it. But all of her writing and props are in the end created to serve her own ego. Her own self-created and self-referential hierarchy. Even her profile name implies it. If she was so enlightened, there would be no need for all of these things. Instead, there would be simply a smile, and a great understanding and empty interest that is endlessly infatuated with everything that is in this world. Her writing style would show that. Instead, it shows an obviously intelligent woman sitting in front of her computer creating digital bras and stilettos all in the effort to "achieve something". And that is not enlightened.

 

But that being said, she does have something to offer. I enjoy reading her posts, unwillingly comical as they may be. And I would encourage her to continue making them. Partly because they're educational. Partly because they are some of the funniest ego-dances I've ever witnessed.

 

From the perspective of the recognition of reality (which is the actual topic of this thread), the adoption of a persona has a kind of theatrical value as a tool for interacting with a world of method actors who have become so enmeshed in our characters that we've forgoten our real nature. Theatricality is inherent in all the major traditions of awakening: look at all the pointy hats and robes etc. The question is, is there one single archetype of persona that is appropriate for the transmission of recognition as you seem to believe Perceiver, or are there many? I made reference to Kali and Kuan Yin previously as two historically valid archetypes of awakening, insinuating that your version of what an enlightened person should be like tends more towards the Kuan Yin model. And that's great, I hope you do manifest that in your own awakening journey. But the cultivation of a particular persona as a tool for interacting meaningfully with the world is something different than awakening to reality, so I hope you don't get caught up in equating the two and thereby miss the point entirely. That being said, cultivation of virtuous and compassionate attitudes has all sorts of benefits on a relative level as well. The question of how much Deci is caught up in her online persona versus how much she is knowingly using it as a tool is really something that only she has to worry about. But I suspect she has more clarity on this point than you do Perceiver.

[deci belle]

The question of how much Deci is caught up in her online persona versus how much she is knowingly using it as a tool is really something that only she has to worry about.

 

The master carpenter uses no tools. Enlightening being does not admit of one's own power.

 

It's just that when I see a fat fellow, I slice.

 

When I can't move heaven, I move hell. It's all the same to me.

 

The fact of the matter is that deci has no idea how it has come to be what it is. But deci has a fucking wicked-ass time of it, I assure everyone.❤︎

 

 

 

 

ed note: spice it up a bit

Edited August 28, 2014 by deci belle

[JustARandomPanda]

...

Edited September 1, 2014 by JustARandomPanda

[deci belle]

Well, Panda-dear~ I am sso pleased with your comment.❤︎

 

How could deci have a position effectively expressing Complete Reality having no position? Though I am not it; it is me.

 

If it is a thing to people who only have eyes for things, then it is not that essence is immaterial, it is simply people bound by their conditioned personalities habituated to selfish perspectives who are unaware of delusion as delusion and cannot see reality as emptiness containing nothing void. The void has no distance, no inside or outside. Where would a position occur?

 

Enlightening being is the Virtue of the Way and the Way is Virtue's power. This is the meaning of the statement, one does not admit of one's own power. This is not philosophy, it is mind itself. Those who see reality have no position because the homeland of nothing whatsoever is their home. Having this home is so whether one is aware of it or not. But until one has direct knowledge of the basic mind, one has no home to recognize as oneself, so one instead takes delusion as one's home.

 

The simple fact is that delusion has no position either, because reality and delusion are one. This is the meaning of the term Sameness. The buddhist term sameness within difference is another way of saying taoism's nonbeing within being. Those who can act on the knowledge of Suchness as is are those who partake of the Supreme Vehicle of buddhas, saints, adepts and wizards.

 

As I said above: those who see delusion as delusion see reality; those who see delusion as reality are lost in delusion.

 

I suppose we are still talking about me, after all… all who know the world is the same as the sage know the self is unborn. How can those who do not comprehend emptiness as real be capable of comprehending the emptiness of deci belle?

 

Bodhidharma's famous response, "Don't know", is just his knowledge of emptiness in two words.

 

Who could ever wear this out?

 

 

 

 

ed note: add last two lines

Edited August 29, 2014 by deci belle

[3bob]

3bob - I'm hoping that one day you experience the Oneness of all paths. You will.

 

 

Well thanks Manitou,

 

paths are many, oneness draws them all, souls are many, oneness draws them all, and no thing draws oneness.

[deci belle]

There is no soul, bob. Soul would be dependent on a separate self, bob. Ya got no separate self, bob. Taoism doesn't do separate self, bob. Are you on the right website, bob?

 

You are definitely on the wrong thread, bob.

 

Try the recreational philosophy department… bob?

 

Comprenez-vous?

 

 

 

 

ed note: add last line

Edited August 29, 2014 by deci belle

[3bob]

Who did the Buddha honor upon his enlightenment, Earth soul. What does Taoism honor, Earth soul. What do you honor Deci, your own sickness.

Edited August 29, 2014 by 3bob

[JustARandomPanda]

[Bearded Dragon]

There is no soul, bob. Soul would be dependent on a separate self, bob. Ya got no separate self, bob. Taoism doesn't do separate self, bob. Are you on the right website, bob?

 

You are definitely on the wrong thread, bob.

 

Try the recreational philosophy department… bob?

 

Comprenez-vous?

 

 

 

 

ed note: add last line

 

Actually it's a good point. I don't have any grasp of the concept of reincarnation (mostly out of lack of interest). Maybe it would be a good topic for another thread. For the purpose of further defining the point of "no separate self".

[Perceiver]

There is no soul, bob. Soul would be dependent on a separate self, bob. Ya got no separate self, bob. Taoism doesn't do separate self, bob. Are you on the right website, bob?

 

You are definitely on the wrong thread, bob.

 

Try the recreational philosophy department… bob?

 

Comprenez-vous?

 

 

 

 

ed note: add last line

 

Deci, your way of speaking to people makes them sad.

 

It's not very nice to go around and make people sad, or do you think so?

 

This thread is the funniest thing in the whole world. You're making a rather simple, yet valuable point. A point that would be so much easier to get if you laid off the overly elaborate language, the self-references in third person, the subtle sexual cues and the belittling of other people which you seem to be gloating over as you sit behind the screen and creates an alter ego that is meant to be desirable. Not to mention your one-liner classis "I have a post called "about me" - I suggest you read it just so you know who you're dealing with". Ego, anyone?

 

You speak about non-ego, yet you don't live it. You're the most ego-gratiyfing person I've ever come across. I've met other people like you out in the real world who have a constant need to be "above" others. They're all of them trying to fill a hole inside, and their desire to be desirable is existentially doomed as their insecurity is revealed as soon as they open their mouth. This thread is not just about reality. It is just as much about you. You need this. You want this. You get a kick out of establishing yourself as the focus of people's attention, trying to desperately get some of that perceived social value.

 

I see you still haven't reverted on me pointing this out earlier. How come? You don't seem to be the kind of person who is lost for words.

 

Waking up to reality is waking up to its true nature. Reality is that you're unique and invaluable, yet no "better" than anyone else. Reality is empty and full in all of its splendor. Reality is perfect as perfection is the natural state of the eternal is. Reality is also love: A subtle smile that unavoidably is there. A smile that smiles at the obvious perfection of all that is. The joy of being, which in that state simply is and always has been. An unavoidable love and understanding for all that is in this world. Not to be confused with relativism, but as the inherent understanding that all forms are of the same source, and are evolving and self-transcending towards greater heights of self-realization as the only natural law of reality that is.

 

You don't live that. If you did it would radiate from your being. Don't tell me that enlightened beings come across as big and arrogant assholes, because that is not the true nature of the eternal reality. You've understood the cognitive part of reality, but you're missing out on the empathic one. It is witnessed by the constant ego-dances you display.

 

Maybe I should just ignore these threads because after all you're allowed to write about whatever you want, in the way that you want. Watching your self-defeating ego dance is funny. The only problem is that you belittle and bully other people and make them sad. This is not a nice thing to do, and it's only counterproductive to learning. People have a tendency to gravitate towards inherent truths if presented with them. They will do so more effortlessly when their own ego is not visibly at risk and when they're not being spat in the face like you do.

 

Perhaps the best reply to you is simply what GrandmasterP wrote in the beginning:

 

Ed note: Ignore deci belle.

 

Job jobbed.

[Daeluin]

Zhuangzi and Laozi do make some pretty good points about avoiding placing value where others might attempt to control it for their own use, or cut it down to size.

 

Zhuangzi and Laozi also advise hiding the inner and expressing naturally - but naturally doesn't mean hacking and slashing indiscriminately, it means so as to adapt to the situation harmoniously, only stirring things up that will affect beneficial change.

 

db isn't the first I've seen to slice and slash about without discrimination or worry, coming from an "enlightened" perspective. Trouble is, even though such methods are great at breaking apart stagnation and challenging the fixed status quo of the ego, it tends cause all manner of reaction, and the focus of the conversation keeps revolving around the reaction and not the subtlety. Further, even when a master is selective about what they stir up in this manner, they can easily fall into the trap of presuming they know the lesson the other needs to hear. I've had strings which needed tugging, tugged, but in the wrong direction for my path. It resulted in confusion and took some struggling to get through it. Hey, maybe it's the way I needed to go through that particular awakening, but it also caused other types of attachments and fears to be created. Remaining unselective and creating friction without minding, is merely choosing to not walk two roads:

 

 

What is this Three in the Morning? A monkey trainer was distributing chestnuts. He said, "I'll give you three in the morning and four in the evening." The monkeys were furious. "Well then," he said, "I'll give you four in the morning and three in the evening." The monkeys were delighted. This change of description and arrangement caused no loss, but in one case it brought anger and in another delight. He just went by the rightness of their present "this." Thus the Sage uses various rights and wrongs to harmonize with others and yet remains at rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter's Wheel. This is called "Walking Two Roads."

 

 

Parallels from martial arts seem to resonate. Hard external fighting is inherently brutal, forceful, but when applied softly and with skill, the master is able to slip past all attacks and end up inside whichever blind spot - it would be easy for them to issue a killing blow, but rather they give a light tap, and the dance continues thusly until the attacker is exhausted. Such training is internally developmental, and also cultivates trust and intuition.

 

From what I can tell, the low, hidden road is more effective - when used with skill, one hits the mark and causes specific change. Even when it misses the mark, it is oft ignored without causing ripples. Both Zhuanzi and Laozi advise changing others with sly subtlety, so that their will is imposed without notice, so that others change on their own. This is a transmission of change without any external expression, without force, without loss of efficiency from friction of confusion causing internal or external ripples.

 

The mere evidence that others consistently react to threads like this is invitation for change, so that more efficient transmission may be affected. But more likely those who create threads like this are satisfied with the resulting friction. Those who are unsatisfied with the friction may as well learn to not fall into the trap others remain content to create.

[JustARandomPanda]

*************

Edited February 11, 2020 by JustARandomPanda
n/a

[deci belle]

Just checking to see if youre still breathing, bob.

 

The earth has no soul, kids.

 

The buddha is purported to have done a lot of things~ think of how many delusional people exist compared to how many enlightening beings are running around beyond convention.

 

Now how many stories of the buddha are geared to the mentalities of the lowest of the low compared to those who see reality?

 

Now do the math, people. .05% of the stuff you may come across by RESEARCH will be pretty much the straight scoop.

 

The rest is provisional.

 

My guess is the ladies who have just come in their little group (for moral courage, no doubt) are part of the provisionalist crowd.

 

Yawn.

 

I make no apologies. Y'all can suck on whatever comes to mouth most readily.

 

If you have an affinity, we rock. If you don't~ you know who you are.

 

Eat your hearts out, because I do not care. Yer not my problem.❤︎

[Daeluin]

Is adjusting the strike to avoid the shield provisionalist?