How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truth and Enlightenment?

[Satya]

Hello,

 

How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truths/Enlightenment?

Enlightenment as explained, and axiomatically acknowledged/intuited by myself (and many others), in (some/most) Zen/Advaita/Self-Inquiry/Jnana Yoga approaches is seeing realising what is True, is seeing through the illusion of Self, realising no-self, etc (I could go on and/or make it more specific, but, if you know self-inquiry, you know the jist of what I'm talking about).

I have heard/read that these insights/seeing through the illusions/bullshit/labels/separations, etc, leads to a purifying of energy in itself as a sort of side effect. Through bouts of extreme insight I have felt something akin to this.

How does this approach of inquiry and realisation relate (if at all) to Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff, according to you?

As I have mentioned before, I am relatively new to Taoist/Chinese terminology but I have heard the phrase of Ghost level of realisation tossed about, or something, when referring to this approach, as if it's inferior, but, to me, realisation of Truth, of no self, of pure awareness, of pure being and non-being, everything/nothing seems to be self evidently final.

From my preliminary reading it seems that the aim of energy work is to maintain the memories of this incarnation and then go about your business, just like someone who's enlightened on earth, but, as an immortal forever. So, someone who DOESN'T do this stuff that realises no self, what's supposed to happen to them? They just cease to be and rejoin Tao/One/Brahman/Totality completely? Superior and inferior aren't really the words I like to use, but they're all I have here. This ceasing to be/becoming one with Tao seems simultaneously superior and inferior. Superior in its sense of ultimate letting go and finality, ultimate Truth. Inferior in terms of utility and not being able to go on helping others, BUT, the cosmos/karma/one/Tao/Brahman, etc, does this, provides exactly what we need to wake up all the time anyway, so, we don't really need teachers in some regards.

Also, there're reports about ascended masters, etc, who seem to have practiced this self inquiry approach themselves but are then still travelling around the different planes of existence/that are still contactable, implying that they don't just fade away or cease to be, but they are still going about their business, not identified with their form, but, also still able to operate.

Anyway. Your thoughts on this would be interesting.

 

[thelerner]

Here's my theory.

 

I think there's a physical enlightenment one can get. It's energy based, thus more neidan/qigong oriented. Energy/chi circulates through the meridians, channels and whatnot strongly enough and kundalini or its equivalent is awakened. There are physical and psychological effects which can create benefits and/or problems. Practices like Kundalini yoga and Taoist Microcosmic orbit are amongst the practices that can bring it out. Glenn Morris had some good descriptions of this in his book 'Pathnotes..'. His definition of enlightenment was physical, you had the strong energy accumulation and circulation or you didn't.

 

I also think there is a psychological enlightenment. A person breaks out of dualistic thinking. No more me and it. A deep sense of oneness pervades the being. Again it brings benefits and problems. You see good descriptions of this in Zen, sometimes its triggered when a person hits bottom. A person like Eckhardt Tolle is a good example of this. His happiness is independent of his situation.

 

The two enlightenments can come separately or together. Having one doesn't guarantee the other. Are they permanent? Hmnn, I don't know.. I think at first they can be temporary, but if held onto long enough, maybe they are.

Edited August 11, 2014 by thelerner

[GrandmasterP]

Cracking post Satya and one that captures the current TTB zeitgeist .

Kudos.

FWIW and this is only a personal opinion.

All these schools and praxes boil down to two sorts of cultivators.

Those who do it and those who talk and argue about it.

By and large the terminology and texts are describing the same processes.

They just use different terms and concepts to describe the effects of praxis.

Presuming that the reader is actually practising because no 'how to' text gives the full picture.

All texts presume a teacher supplementing and filling in the gaps in the text.

Simple example...

A text is ambiguous and might have two or three interpretations - consequently the 'reader only' follower will choose their own interpretation and argue for it from what they have read.

Now the reader who has a teacher can't fall into that trap because the teacher will say..

" Look this is how you do that" and then coach the student to success.

Book learning only ever gets anyone so far and can lead to all sorts of confusion and dissent.

Effective cultivation comes from actually cultivating with a teacher and all the 'written theory' stuff can come afterwards as 'added value' but not 'essential value'.

Bill Porter in his book on Chinese Hermits met many illiterate hermits , but they were all top notch cultivators because they had been well taught.

Edited August 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[EarthDragon]

If mind and body are one, an even flow of energy through the body from doing these exercises might make it's way to the brain and alter its composition. (The way we perceive)

 

If the Mind is independently worked as well perhaps it can perceive it's own energies back into the body.

 

I don't really know

[balance.]

Mind-training and direct-inquiry can be accelerated by internal alchemical work----- which is generally what seems to be missing on TTB... that is, bolstering an alchemical practice with mind-training.

 

Alchemical work provides potential and momentum, whereas mind-training provides proper direction.

 

 

 

all the best.

 

 

 

 

balance.

Edited August 11, 2014 by balance.

[3bob]

The term "Self" is used extensively in the (translations of) Upanishads... thus it is being misused and or misunderstood above if it was meant to be equated with illusion.

 

And yes, God only knows how many masters/saints/sages are working on the other side in trying to help this side through their wonderful light bodies.

 

I'll leave the Taoism questions/correlations to the Taoists...

 

Om

[JohnC]

I think it is all the same path, although said differently, viewed through different labels and interpreted through different cultures. AND you can reach a certain level, and hang out there for a very long time or veer off going up the mountain to circle around it. All based on what practices you are up to and what you are working for.

 

Check out SFQ's level 5 retreat:

http://www.springforestqigong.com/index.php/classes/level-5-retreat

 

He speaks on the move towards enlightenment and development.

 

I think there are some schools that skip the energy development (zen, etc) where they aim at non-dual and realizations. To some degree I think those are faster because it seems like they aim straight for the top at the very beginning. No 'develop this or that' no 'opening this eye or that'.

 

Just straight, 'you are enlightened right now, you just don't know it' and 'STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH SILLY IDEAS AND DISTRACTIONS' as they hit you with a stick.

 

I'm not entirely sure though. I'm part of the stillness movement lineage, and I've interacted with old masters... but the clearest aspect of all this is that I just feel drawn to these things, I enjoy practicing for practicing's sake, and .... keep on chugging.

 

As an aside, I think practicing for anything other than practicing's sake can lead to further delusion and pain. It confirms in some way that you aren't cool as you are. Something I've been thinking about lately.

 

John

[dwai]

Hello,

 

How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truths/Enlightenment?

 

Enlightenment as explained, and axiomatically acknowledged/intuited by myself (and many others), in (some/most) Zen/Advaita/Self-Inquiry/Jnana Yoga approaches is seeing realising what is True, is seeing through the illusion of Self, realising no-self, etc (I could go on and/or make it more specific, but, if you know self-inquiry, you know the jist of what I'm talking about).

 

I have heard/read that these insights/seeing through the illusions/bullshit/labels/separations, etc, leads to a purifying of energy in itself as a sort of side effect. Through bouts of extreme insight I have felt something akin to this.

 

How does this approach of inquiry and realisation relate (if at all) to Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff, according to you?

 

As I have mentioned before, I am relatively new to Taoist/Chinese terminology but I have heard the phrase of Ghost level of realisation tossed about, or something, when referring to this approach, as if it's inferior, but, to me, realisation of Truth, of no self, of pure awareness, of pure being and non-being, everything/nothing seems to be self evidently final.

 

From my preliminary reading it seems that the aim of energy work is to maintain the memories of this incarnation and then go about your business, just like someone who's enlightened on earth, but, as an immortal forever. So, someone who DOESN'T do this stuff that realises no self, what's supposed to happen to them? They just cease to be and rejoin Tao/One/Brahman/Totality completely? Superior and inferior aren't really the words I like to use, but they're all I have here. This ceasing to be/becoming one with Tao seems simultaneously superior and inferior. Superior in its sense of ultimate letting go and finality, ultimate Truth. Inferior in terms of utility and not being able to go on helping others, BUT, the cosmos/karma/one/Tao/Brahman, etc, does this, provides exactly what we need to wake up all the time anyway, so, we don't really need teachers in some regards.

 

Also, there're reports about ascended masters, etc, who seem to have practiced this self inquiry approach themselves but are then still travelling around the different planes of existence/that are still contactable, implying that they don't just fade away or cease to be, but they are still going about their business, not identified with their form, but, also still able to operate.

 

Anyway. Your thoughts on this would be interesting.

Dao is the Non-Dual Truth

A person has to first empty himself/herself out completely to be able to realize Dao/be truly in The Way.

According to the lineage I'm a student of, there is a part of the Dao in all of us, it is called the Te (De). This is obscured by the nature of our existence - in a dualistic universe, and with time and as our worldly knowledge grows, keeps getting obscured further (layer upon layer of dust on the proverbial mirror). Once the dust is cleared, i.e. via our practices, we can empty our our mundane existence (self/jiva), we connect with the De (Self/Atman). That is non-different from Dao (Brahman). Dao is empty (nothing), yet full of potentiality (for everything)

 

To further elucidate my perspective - there is a difference between the mundane self and our original Self Nature. The mundane self is what we normally consider being our "self". The original Self is that which remains after all the things that define/constitute the "self" is understood and let go off. So the original Self, is also the No-Self (Anatman of Buddhist perspective).

Edited August 13, 2014 by dwai

[Jetsun]

Non dual awakening means the beginning of the pure flow of life to flow through your body without it being filtered or distorted by the thinking and beliefs of the mind, for the physical body and energy channels this means the voltage and intensity of what is flowing through is upped massively as it is pure spirit which is now moving through the body, so there always is an energetic component to awakening.

 

There are those who had non dual awakenings without any energy work at all and experienced many years of painful and difficult physical adjustment, Adyashanti is one who did it that way and when he was adjusting there were periods of intense difficulties, he talks about times when he was curled up on the floor in the Emergency room in fetal position the pain was so bad and the strongest pain killers didn't help very much. Even Ramana Maharshi had difficult times while his body adjusted. It is possible that the right sort of Qigong or energy work to prepare the body for that change would have helped the adjustment period.

 

Although my opinion is that energy work will achieve nothing in itself except prepare the body for something else to come in and flow through you . Jean Klein says something similar, he says that energy work won't lead to awakening yet he teaches a form of energetic Kashmiri Yoga which helps to open up and prepare the body. The energy work is just preparation and helps the process, it wont lead to the awakening or enlightenment by itself.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Jetsun

[thetaoiseasy]

Everyone has a soul. The development of one's soul is defined by its energetic frequency.

 

The universe has many energetic fields with different frequencies. Tao is the energetic field with the highest frequency.

 

The purpose of Nei-dan is to raises one's soul energy to align with the vibration of the Tao.

 

In the step-by-step refinement process, one surpasses the energetic limitations -- karmic nets, if you will -- of the body, mind, and the spirit.

 

When one's soul vibrates at the same frequency of the Tao, then non-dual reality naturally becomes apparent to the cultivator. The reason is that Tao is the energetic frequency at which the non-dual reality can be experienced.

 

When the body completely empties out, the energy dissolves into a white formlessness -- imageless, colorless, descriptionless, with no end or beginning. This personal experience is valuable.

 

At that point, the non-dual truth is no longer intellectual or psychological to you. It is your realization.

[opendao]

How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truths/Enlightenment?

 

In Neidan the result of overcoming the innate duality is not just in changing Self. By duality Neidan means not a duality of "subject and object" or "self and Brahman", but the innate duality inside. It has different names: Yin and Yang, Qi and Shen, Xing and Ming. You can find more about it on this forum. The result of the cultivation and unity of these polarities leads to a transformation of the entire human being. It includes the spirit-Shen, it includes the energy-Qi. They become one. This is Dao. This is called "One", non-duality. The state of "no self" and enlightenment-satori are considered to be just one of the results on this path, when a student refines the spirit-Shen using the energy-Qi, developed on previous stages of the practice.

 

So when people say that all teachings have same concepts, it's true. But the understanding of such concepts varies dramatically between humans. So in Neidan only a teacher, who is Xian (Immortal, Saint) can be a source of knowledge. Then there are no mistakes and no confusions.

 

Another thing worth to mention is that in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost. In Neidan it's call "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Many people know very good the work with Xing (spirit-Shen), it's about different exercises to stop thoughts and achieve "no mind". If we continue, that's where we can experience out-of-the body "astral travelling". That's what is Ghost Immortal. To prevent that, all ancient systems had practices to work with the innate energy of the body, Ming or Yuan Qi. If this energy is restored and refined, then it can be used to add light to the spirit and for the final transformation of the body.

 

The main difference between such "positive" spirit (Yang shen) and Ghost spirit ("Yin Shen") is that only Yang shen can ascend to Heaven, while Yin Shen can only go down to lower worlds and live there for very long time without any possibility to return to a human body again...

 

Please tell us if you know any similar concepts in what you've learnt.

[LaoZiDao]

 

In Neidan the result of overcoming the innate duality is not just in changing Self. By duality Neidan means not a duality of "subject and object" or "self and Brahman", but the innate duality inside. It has different names: Yin and Yang, Qi and Shen, Xing and Ming. You can find more about it on this forum. The result of the cultivation and unity of these polarities leads to a transformation of the entire human being. It includes the spirit-Shen, it includes the energy-Qi. They become one. This is Dao. This is called "One", non-duality. The state of "no self" and enlightenment-satori are considered to be just one of the results on this path, when a student refines the spirit-Shen using the energy-Qi, developed on previous stages of the practice.

 

So when people say that all teachings have same concepts, it's true. But the understanding of such concepts varies dramatically between humans. So in Neidan only a teacher, who is Xian (Immortal, Saint) can be a source of knowledge. Then there are no mistakes and no confusions.

 

Another thing worth to mention is that in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost. In Neidan it's call "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Many people know very good the work with Xing (spirit-Shen), it's about different exercises to stop thoughts and achieve "no mind". If we continue, that's where we can experience out-of-the body "astral travelling". That's what is Ghost Immortal. To prevent that, all ancient systems had practices to work with the innate energy of the body, Ming or Yuan Qi. If this energy is restored and refined, then it can be used to add light to the spirit and for the final transformation of the body.

 

The main difference between such "positive" spirit (Yang shen) and Ghost spirit ("Yin Shen") is that only Yang shen can ascend to Heaven, while Yin Shen can only go down to lower worlds and live there for very long time without any possibility to return to a human body again...

 

Please tell us if you know any similar concepts in what you've learnt.

 

Great, ill add this as an addition about Yin Shen, while it may be containing some errors, I think it still serves its purpose.

 

Cannot remember the source, I can track it down if someone really insist on it:

 

"When the spirit appears prematurely before the yin has been completely shed, it is known as the yin spirit. If, at the time it emerges, one sees a white light like the Milky Way, then the spirit emerges from the eyes; if one hears the music of metal bells, stone chimes, lutes and windpipes, it emerges from the ears. This is because the yang qi is still not sufficiently mature and robust to burst through the Celestial Pass. Instead it picks these convenient sideways and off-paths to come outOnce it has emerged, it may happily wander about free and easy. It may take a leisurely walk through the streets in a town, may linger on a river bank, or scale a mountain. It may even take physical form. But it certainly cannot divide its form. While it may be able to range far and wide in the human world, it can not ascend in flight and transform. When the sun of a high summer blazes in the sky, then the yin spirit would scurry into hiding for fear of it. Therefore, even though it may have acquired an air of transcendence, it has never departed from the realm of the ghosts.

 

If the ground of the heart has not been rendered void and bright, the gestated fetus will surely not be a holy fetus; the spirit which has emerged will carry with it its impurities. At the site of anything horrible it will be stricken with fright; one glance and it can be stricken with desire. Captivated, it lingers on and forgets to return, only to fall prey to the way of demons. As its body dies, those who do not know will believe [they] have attained immortality through sitting transformation [i.e., dying while meditating]. Who knows that those for whom the yin spirit does not return after its [initial] emergence are not worthy of inquiry."

 

Sitting meditating and dying being passed as Immortality is very a common phenomenon!

[Ya Mu]

Everyone has a soul. The development of one's soul is defined by its energetic frequency.

 

The universe has many energetic fields with different frequencies. Tao is the energetic field with the highest frequency.

 

The purpose of Nei-dan is to raises one's soul energy to align with the vibration of the Tao.

 

In the step-by-step refinement process, one surpasses the energetic limitations -- karmic nets, if you will -- of the body, mind, and the spirit.

 

When one's soul vibrates at the same frequency of the Tao, then non-dual reality naturally becomes apparent to the cultivator. The reason is that Tao is the energetic frequency at which the non-dual reality can be experienced.

 

When the body completely empties out, the energy dissolves into a white formlessness -- imageless, colorless, descriptionless, with no end or beginning. This personal experience is valuable.

 

At that point, the non-dual truth is no longer intellectual or psychological to you. It is your realization.

You sure don't think like the majority here. How could you possibly have come to these conclusions? Could it be from actual practice? Huh, amazing.

Ha HA, I LIKE - what a great post!

[Antares]

Another thing worth to mention is that in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost. In Neidan it's call "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Many people know very good the work with Xing (spirit-Shen), it's about different exercises to stop thoughts and achieve "no mind". If we continue, that's where we can experience out-of-the body "astral travelling". That's what is Ghost Immortal. To prevent that, all ancient systems had practices to work with the innate energy of the body, Ming or Yuan Qi. If this energy is restored and refined, then it can be used to add light to the spirit and for the final transformation of the body.

 

The main difference between such "positive" spirit (Yang shen) and Ghost spirit ("Yin Shen") is that only Yang shen can ascend to Heaven, while Yin Shen can only go down to lower worlds and live there for very long time without any possibility to return to a human body again...

 

Please tell us if you know any similar concepts in what you've learnt.

 

Hi, opendao. How can you be sure that ALL tradtions have lost the method of restoring Yuan Qi? I think that probaly the difference between some of them and Neidan is that they do not use such terminology as Xing and Ming.

 

Foe example in Tantra they use such words as: mind (Xing) and Kundalini (Ming).

How can you be sure they are not envolved in "dual cultivation" by practicing mind - heart cultivation and Kundalini methods?

 

In general in Tantra they begin with xin-Xing method on the stage of Kyerim and then there is final stage wich is called Dzogrim where there are many methods of work with innate power (energy, prana, qi).

 

Far not every Taoist school starts with Ming method as well as many tantric traditions. This is only the matter of terminology.

[Antares]

Everyone has a soul. The development of one's soul is defined by its energetic frequency.

 

The universe has many energetic fields with different frequencies. Tao is the energetic field with the highest frequency.

 

The purpose of Nei-dan is to raises one's soul energy to align with the vibration of the Tao.

 

In the step-by-step refinement process, one surpasses the energetic limitations -- karmic nets, if you will -- of the body, mind, and the spirit.

 

When one's soul vibrates at the same frequency of the Tao, then non-dual reality naturally becomes apparent to the cultivator. The reason is that Tao is the energetic frequency at which the non-dual reality can be experienced.

 

When the body completely empties out, the energy dissolves into a white formlessness -- imageless, colorless, descriptionless, with no end or beginning. This personal experience is valuable.

 

At that point, the non-dual truth is no longer intellectual or psychological to you. It is your realization.

 

Nice theory.

Only the question HOW are you going to raise your frequency. Everyone already has soul and spirit which vibrate with higher energy frequency but people can not feel it because of many karmic blockages in the mind and body.

 

How are you going to increase the frequency of your mind to realize the Tao? You need:

 

1) Teacher who already has this frequency

2) Method how overpass your karmic issues

 

Theacher transmits the energy coming from the Tao and this is only the way how to overpass your own blockages. We can say many other theories but all of them will remain theories until we have high level Teacher and authentic method.

 

Method of "energy cultivation" works with our innate energy body. Far not every single method works the same way and far not every method can bring you to the Tao even if you put much efforts. The method must have the right sequence and cause the right changes in you energy body. The human being has certain energy structure and only enlightened person knows how to work with energy body. Far not every teacher knows the right method for energy cultivation. The difference is that which energy channels they work with

[opendao]

Hi, opendao. How can you be sure that ALL tradtions have lost the method of restoring Yuan Qi?

 

Welcome back, Antares. I couldn't say that, I said " in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost." Some traditions still have it, some traditions never had it, so how we can even speak about ALL?

 

Far not every Taoist school starts with Ming method as well as many tantric traditions. This is only the matter of terminology.

 

I never apply terminology from one system to another. Even simple things as Qi or Shen have its own meanings in different Daoist schools. But every term has a definition and description inside the school you want to learn. That's the only way to compare based on textual descriptions. But sure thing, such way has its flaws, and the final decision can be made only by learning the tradition in full from a teacher.

 

About "Ming first". Yes, there are some Taoist schools with Xing only. There are modern schools that cannot even enter to the level of Xing work. So what? There are thousands of schools that lost Neidan method completely... The path of Neidan is really well defined, if you want it in full and understand why it's important, then you can find and learn it. If you are ok with partial methods or side-ways, then it's a good choice too. I'm just against modern mix of everything with everything and loosing the idea of "dual cultivation". Whatever choice you do, it has to be done responsible and with attention.

[Antares]

Welcome back, Antares. I couldn't say that, I said " in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost." Some traditions still have it, some traditions never had it, so how we can even speak about ALL?

 

Ok, but what traditions are you talking about? Some branches of LongmenPai, chan, zen, fitness yoga, christianity...?

 

If we have a look at authenticTibetan/Indian traditions I suppose there are many Ming practices but without stress on it according to Taoist terminology. So we have to admit that many traditions have preserved Ming methods... but I can not do this statement. The issue is only in final realization as I believe. And also how orient tradition are compatible with western mindset. It' better to talk about Taoist school and methods as we are on the Taoist forum.

 

May be Taoist Ming practices are something really different from other orient tantric/yogic methods but we can not even talk about it without having experience in all of them so it would be better not trying even to compare them. The Ming method could be a matter of certain kind of transmission within a traditional teaching. It' all about a person' personal karma and level of a teacher. Even if there is ming method but there is no good teacher a student will not be able to complete the method to the result which is described in authentic texts. I believe it's very crucial who we are getting a method from. May be it' even more important than the method for itself. Have you seen anyone who stopped the process of aging and reversed his / her age back? This is what Taoist texts describe as some proof of achievement. I have seen few people from WuLuPai but I saw them few times and I had no chance to see them before. So I cannot say anything definite how it works for them. If younger look is not evidence what an evidence could be there else? I actually know that there are few powerful methods within WuLu and YuXian and that people getting some good results. What is special in these Ming methods in Taoist schools?

I know a little about WuLu but as for YuXian for example there is no Ming in the beginning and if we have a lool at history of Quanzhen school there were a lot of xin- Xing methods in the beginning quieting the mind. Ming method in work only when person restores yuan qi indeed. Do you think it' possible without direct transmission from high level Chinese teacher?

[opendao]

I know a little about WuLu but as for YuXian for example there is no Ming in the beginning

 

I don't know what you learnt, but even the first preliminary exercises of Yuxianpai are based on Ming, not Xing. They don't restore, but they prepare yuan qi using yuan qi. What is it if not a beginning of Ming gong?

 

and if we have a lool at history of Quanzhen school there were a lot of xin- Xing methods in the beginning quieting the mind.

 

Quanzhen schools are very different. Early teaching was different from later. You can read even in English books about it. Xin is important, Xing is important, but if there are Ming methods then it's much more efficient to use them to transform Xin and Xing.

 

Ming method in work only when person restores yuan qi indeed. Do you think it' possible without direct transmission from high level Chinese teacher?

 

There are some details, but yes, it's possible after you get the method from any knowledgeable teacher. Level or nationality doesn't play a big role here.

[Antares]

 

I don't know what you learnt, but even the first preliminary exercises of Yuxianpai are based on Ming, not Xing. They don't restore, but they prepare yuan qi using yuan qi. What is it if not a beginning of Ming gong?

 

What means "based on Ming" and "prepare yuan qi"? I seem to be confused a little here. As far as I know these preliminary exercises refine post heaven qi in organs and prepare pre heaven channels. But there is no restoration of yuan qi yet. So it might be the preparation for the Ming gong. I did not ask instructors much about this as I was concentrated on practice rather than on theory. From this point of view it is beginning of the ming gong indeed. But this is quite different from initial WuLu method. In YuXian it looks more as qigong exercises with usage of personal consciuosness (post heaven shen) but in WuLu' method this is only a short preparation for the Ming method (Juiyangshengong) where work of personal consciuosness should be stopped and is not welcome at all. So there are different approaches at all. As far as I know in ming method the movement and restoration of yuan qi is possible when post heaven shen is kind of switched off and a person has spontaneous movement when yuan qi manifests itself opening pre heaven channels and post heaven shen is only watching at the process.

This is the work of yuan qi as far as I got it right. Hmm, it sounds similar to the spontaneous contemplation in Dzogchen teaching. But nowadays they teach how to use personal mind to control this process in "meditation". It is just may be that WuLu initial method is more straight than in YuXian but both of them are ming gong practices with different approaches. I just was confused how movements based on personal consciousness in shengong could be Ming method.

 

 

 

Xin is important, Xing is important, but if there are Ming methods then it's much more efficient to use them to transform Xin and Xing.

 

As far as I got it right this is the advantage of taoist alchemist - the refinement of Xin-Xing is achieved by the Ming restoration. We do not have to sit quietly, we do not need to refrain from "mundane" way of life, we do not need to "clean" our soul (heart)... Sounds pretty good but I believe it depends on how we are already "pure" and how much emptiness in heart we already have. So this returns us back to the xin methods again. Actually I am trying to say that even Samatha in Buddhism is not meditation yet and is only preliminary practice for quieting the heart, and it is only xin method. But many of schools who teach it nowadays lost Ming method as the foundation for serious spiritual results

[Antares]

Curious. What physical or physiological capacities or proofs would convince you?

 

You can read it from description of Jiuyanshengong practice:

 

 

In the method of JIUYANGSHENGONG as soon as the development of movement has occurred, the primordial qi is transformed into jing and fills the brain and kidneys. As a consequence, the phenomenon of "returning from old age to young age" appears. But after the movements develop, by activating the mechanism of pre-heaven qi, at once it becomes possible to produce an external pre-heaven qi (transl. note: pre-heaven qi can go outside), and thus you can cure diseases of other people. However, our school does not focus on the curing the other people and in the case of manifestation of this ability the best is to leave them for yourself, do not show them, otherwise it will be lost and you will harm yourself.

http://all-dao.com/features-jiuyangshengong.html

 

I know it is not welcomed to show these results to anyone else but I was curious to see someone who began getting younger. This is what taoist scriptures describe as one of the level of achievements. But it is nevermind. Also there is a statement that correct Ming practice grants physical immortality and this is evidence of the right method I never have heard it from other traditional teachings and I wonder how it is really possible to achieve. I suppose someone must have very good karma to achieve it and this is not only a matter of practice for itself. I have to keep practicing more intensively and check it out myself

[opendao]

You can read it from description of Jiuyanshengong practice:

 

http://all-dao.com/features-jiuyangshengong.html

 

I know it is not welcomed to show these results to anyone else but I was curious to see someone who began getting younger. This is what taoist scriptures describe as one of the level of achievements.

 

You need to be more attentive: Jiuyanshengong practice doesn't restore _yuan_ jing and doesn't return youth as described in scriptures when they speak about the first stage ("building the foundation").

[Antares]

But this is only quote:

 

 

In the method of JIUYANGSHENGONG as soon as the development of movement has occurred, the primordial qi is transformed into jing and fills the brain and kidneys. As a consequence, the phenomenon of "returning from old age to young age" appears.

 

anyway i am not talking about this initial practice only. I believe there are few students who is practising next level of the methods

[Spotless]

Proper practice transforms our energy, helps us move beyond our binding habits, brings energy to areas where fear and timidity has kept us from.

 

Practice is a constant rebirth and ever increasing quality of vibration.

 

From it comes a consistently strong quieter pervading awareness, entry into entirely different equations in life.

 

It is like chiseling ones brick and turning it into water.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Spotless

[Phenomniverse]

How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truths/Enlightenment?

 

Great topic, and great thread, lots of interesting food for thought here.

 

Personally, I think that in general the 'energy stuff' serves to clarify the mind and its positive qualities which are supportive of and conducive to the recognition of the non-dual. By working with gross and subtler aspects of the body, their continuity with the mind is experienced. Lots of insight can come from working in this way, along with physical, emotional and mental health and lots of other benefits. It all seems pretty enticing to me!

[Satya]

Jetsuns post on another thread reminded me of an angle to all of this:

 

Perhaps what you are fighting to keep alive doesn't even exist in any substantial way, that is basically what many of the spiritual traditions say, that what you think you are is based on a tangle of false thoughts and unexamined assumptions. Examine that which you are fighting for with enough honesty and willingness and you might not be so keen to keep it alive.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35900-hello-atheist-skeptic-open-minded-here/page-2

I guess I need to become better acquainted with Taoist terminology, but, specifically regarding Immortal Practices, to me, the underlying consciousness/soul is inherently immortal and doesn't need development (we might not remember previous lives, but, our essence is the same), and will continue reincarnating until we see through the illusion of separation.

I don't yet know enough of the terms to perform an indepth analysis, but, anything believed in, to me, is inherently illusory.

Some Kriya Yogis (among others) stated that there are different bodies, physical, astral and causal, but, that enlightenment results in breaking out/through all of them.

Enlightenment in Non-Dual, Zen, Dzogchen, Kashmir Shaivist, Buddhist, Advaita traditions, in which all belief is seen through, including belief in the self, seems ultimately more final than developing any additional body/personality/identity with which you live forever with, as, there is ultimately no real you, in terms of personality. All there is is pure awareness, ultimately.

Unless there's some subtle nuance in terminology or concept that I'm not yet familiar with, perhaps (as I said in the original post) the form that is enlightened but has no identification with form continues on, not identified to illusion (though, going in circles here, generally, when illusion is seen through, this usually means, from some previous reading and self evident inquiry, that if the illusion of any self is seen through, then, only pure awareness remains, and that pure awareness merges back with pure awareness in a non personified state).

Edited August 16, 2014 by Satya