How does all of this Neidan/Neigong/Qigong/Energy stuff relate to Non-Dual Truth and Enlightenment?

[LaoZiDao]

"What advice do you have for raising a child on earth?

 

The first thing a baby does when born is cry.It does so because the Soul is conscious of what it has been born into and is in a state of disbelief (you are more conscious of what you are and where you are during/right after birth than you arenow).The Soul makes the body cry because it is the first time it came to this physical realm (although this is a very limited number) or because it realises it has returned through reincarnation, after failing in the former life (which is a vast majority).The Soul itself is not the one crying (it is unfamiliar with these functions in it´s original state) yet the impulses it gives makes the body cry.It cries "without a reason" for days, weeks, months, untill the consciousness has lost it´s power,be it through natural processes or the influence of parents and these days even medication...That is when the human is truly born, after they forget who they are, where they are, some forget faster than others.

 

This crying is different to the crying that follows after the first few months, one can even hear it. Comfort them during this crucial period of consciousness and make it known that the One hasgifted them with a chance to return back to the place they belong. This will have an impact which will influence them for the rest of their lives, subconsciously. The time of birth was determined (as is the time of passing on), together with the enviroment, parents, circumstances of birth, health, etc...nothing is a coincidence. But during puberty they get cut loose from certain strings and they will be fully responsible for their actions, having the free will to lead the life they want, they determine the quality of it....they can even determine the way they pass on ("death") by the choices they make but cannot change the time of passing on. Just a few areas of their lives will be influenced by the tools that the parents have given them. Most of the child´s life will be based on free will, which will have very little to nothing to do with parents, you are only important in the first 5-6 years of the child´s life so that is where you can do most good. Use your intuition (not instinct, 2 different matters).When becoming a parent you are rewarded with qualities (which concern raising children) which where not available before, listen to them. Every child is different, respond differently but make them aware there is more than they experience, that there is a Good Source where everything/everybody flows out of for a reason and 1 day they will return after realising their task here on Earth. Do not tell this all at once but over years and do not tell more than this. If done the right way they will start looking for it on their own for the rest of life, which is their duty. If you present it to them in an obvious way (like religious people do), you will achieve the opposite. Musical instruments were passed on in a different era for a reason and it was not just to listen too their people playing them. Education: 1 method of manipulation. They will be manipulated, but after puberty they have an important opportunity to undo it. They will also get opportunities during the rest of their lives. You cannot stop the manipulation, neither instigate an awakening, that is up to the child and how it responds to the tools provided to it.....the Mind of the Universe following Divine Law is always penetrating your child so it is being provided with the chance to awake every moment. It is up to him/her." - Insider Interview 2005

 

 

Wonderful quote here, not Daoist but I highly rate it.

[Walker]

Indispensable.

 

The words used in the teachings are all merely pointers, but in spite of their mereness, it is important to look deeply into them, lest we mistakenly assume that they are used to point in one direction, instead of another.

 

Seekers should never forget that in Daoism, common words are often used in very uncommon ways. We all know that the confusing talk of things like water and fire and various metals and fantastic animals needs to be carefully studied, but it is all too easy to forget that even the most simple-seeming word may refer to something altogether different from what we would normally assume. Thus, despite the fact that the true teaching is a wordless teaching, we must be very meticulous in our reading.

 

So, it is true that the "nei" of neidan and neigong is in fact best translated as "inner" or "internal," as you will see most writers do. But one must ask, the character points us to the inside of what?

 

It is very easy to prematurely conclude that we are talking of something inside of the body, or "beneath the surface"--some kind of hidden but somehow solid and tangible mystery, perhaps including such as things as qi meridians which most of us are unable to experience directly, but which adepts perhaps learn to see and feel.

 

Working with "subtle energies" doubtless has its place, but in fact, when the character "nei" is used by Daoists in the context of neidan and Daoist neigong, it can be understood as pointing the practitioner to beyond duality--in fact, well beyond the very dichotomy of "inner" and "outer" that a superficial understanding of the vocabulary would suggest. This understanding can be found both in the textual tradition and in the oral tradition, but, unfortunately, it is lost on many enthusiasts, practitioners, writers, and teachers. From certain standpoints, one might go so far as to consider this misinterpretation a truly dangerous obstacle; miss the truth by a fraction of an inch and you will miss your destination by a thousand li.

 

With this in mind, it can be no surprise that the Heart Sutra and the Diamond Sutra (which Thich Nhat Hahn calls The Diamond that Cuts Through Illusion, reminding us that the sutra's title does not refer to diamonds' glittering prettiness, and rather to the idea of an unsurpassably sharp weapon capable of piercing directly through our ignorance of the reality that all compounded objects are both transitory and totally empty of separate self-existence) are considered to be indispensable reading by a great many Daoists. How indispensable? Lu Dongbin quotes the Diamond Sutra in his Stele of One Hundred Characters and Wang Chongyang installed the Heart Sutra as one of only three keystone texts in Complete Reality Daoism. It is most wise indeed for the aspiring practitioner of Daoist "inner skill" to contemplate the contents of those sutras.

 

Adepts of Daoism just like many Buddhist teachers are quick to remind us that whatever "it" "is" that we are working "towards" in our cultivation, "it" "is" beyond time and space. Beyond even beyond. Awake--so be it!

Edited August 19, 2014 by Walker

[Satya]

I was just not doing studying I should have been doing, reading through interviews on here and came across this question and answer with Kosta Danaos. It's pretty much exactly the same question, so it's relevant to this thread. It's not an answer either way, but I thought it would be a decent contribution.

More_Pie_Guy, on 27 October 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

1. The twin goals of "enlightenment" & "immortality" are often listed as the ultimate neidan endgames.. However, "enlightenment" is often described as the transcendence of all duality (including Self)...whereas "immortality" would be the eternal preservation of "Self," no? It seems almost contradictory, but I suppose this "immortal self" that does goes on would be a transcendence of life/death (belonging not quite wholly to either state) as Sambhogakāya? Or no?

Answer: Damn, these are good questions! Give that man a cigar. It is no coincidence that George Lucas chose just these archetypes as the foundation of the Jedi and the Sith respectively: the Jedi dissolve into the Universe and become one with it; the Sith endure and promote their own "immortal self". Having studied Buddhism before the MoPai, these are questions that bothered me as well. Then there is the stanza in the Tao Te Ching that states (my translation) "those who retain their center endure, those who die but continue to exist are immortal".

I'm afraid I cannot really answer your question - I can offer an opinion , but not an answer. My opinion is that the Mass Unconscious, the Overmind if you will, resides beyond space and time in what the Chinese call yin, and what we today are calling gravity wells and dark matter. The more of our conscious mind that we pour into this Overmind, the more that is retained, until in the end you become a fully-fledged and voting member of the Board of Directors. I think that is what the fuss is about regarding the union of yin and yang. The Buddhist approach, as you know, involves essentially "melting" all the yang chakras so that the knots are freed and one's personality merges with Mind.

Which approach is correct? Who knows? I'm afraid I'm not really qualified to offer more of an answer, but thank you for the question - it was a good one.

[Jetsun]

Satya I think that is one of the most important questions any of us can ask in this area.

 

As I understand it the soul still has an element of ego within it therefore it is ultimately in the end an unsatisfactory existence to have your identity limited to that container, so you may be able to do Taoist immortal practices to exist there after death for a time yet the impulse is always going to be to move beyond that limitation eventually, so why not go for the ultimate liberation right now. Also if it has an element of ego within it then ultimately it isn't true, it requires a degree of denial and resistance towards to universe to maintain it and will therefore still be subjected to extra suffering.

 

The awakening path leads to a place of no limitation and to merge with all existence, which is a place of complete perfect freedom which is already immortal, it is the place of harmony with existence and living in truth, yet it is a non personal shared place of ultimate freedom which involves giving up all concepts of personal achievement and identity which is why people put it off and go for personal individual glory, the ego will do what it can to survive even beyond death even though its death will bring about everything we yearn for.

[thetaoiseasy]

The soul is a piece of a energy. It can contain ego. But it doesn't have to.

 

People often speak of reincarnation. But what is the substance that is reincarnated? To a Taoist, the reincarnated substance is just soul energy still vibrating in the realm of yin and yang -- the sphere of the changing truth.

 

The ultimate goal of Taoist practices is to reach the level of the unchanging truth -- that is, to merge one's soul energy with the Mother Universe.

 

But people do not fly into the sky overnight -- there are no shortcuts. Truly, most cultivators are just at the very beginning stages of cultivation. And they may mistake an intellectual "all is empty" musing for real achievement, or gravitate towards a psychological approach.

 

But that cannot begin to touch the spiritual heights our Taoist forefathers left us with. In their writings, they spoke of complete internal engineering of body, mind, and spirit. Truly, when the body is not transformed, one cannot even begin to speak of non-duality. It is a mere pipe-dream.

 

So the body must be first transformed, until desire is refined to jing. The mind must also be transformed, until ego and mental confusion is refined to chi. The spirit must be transformed, until all sense of self is dissolved to light.

 

This is energetic transformation wherein the light of our soul, becoming brighter and brighter with cultivation, pierces the darkness we have created for ourselves.

 

The jing-chi-shen-Te-Tao model elucidates this point, but it confuses some people because of esoteric terminology. More plainly put, it describes a step-by-step jettisoning of all the trashes the soul has accumulated in this world. We cannot take any our conceptions, ideas, and beliefs with us.

 

With refinement, the crude material of our body can be sublimated to pure light and higher spiritual energy. Our soul becomes lighter and lighter. After the cleansing process, our soul contains the essence of our life, our spiritual nature.

 

Our spiritual nature is an energetic copy of the universal nature. Seeing this, what duality can still exist?

Edited November 9, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[3bob]

I'd say the Buddha talked about maintaining (his soul as an immortal) throughout a "world cycle" * but that didn't happen per this excerpt from the:

 

Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha
translated from the Pali by Sister Vajira & Francis Story © 1998:

 

From part Three: "Relinquishing the Will to Live, The Blessed One's Prompting

 

3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent.

6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you."
"Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

*description of a world cycle:

 

Great Aeon or World Cycle (Maha-kappa)

A maha kappa or aeon is generally taken to mean a world cycle.
How long is a world cycle? In Samyutta ii, Chapter XV, the Buddha
used the parables of the hill and mustard-seed for comparison:
• Suppose there was a solid mass, of rock or hill, one yojana
(eight miles) wide, one yojana across and one yojana high and
every hundred years, a man was to stroke it once with a piece of
silk. That mass of rock would be worn away and ended sooner
than would an aeon.
• Suppose there was a city of iron walls, one yojana in length, one
yojana in width, one yojana high and filled with mustard-seeds
to the brim. There-from a man was to take out every hundred
years a mustard-seed. That great pile of mustard-seed would be
emptied and ended sooner than would an aeon.

Edited August 30, 2014 by 3bob

[Infinity]

All this discussion on immortality is it not fuelled by the fear of death? Maybe this fear is based on the identification with our 'i' 'ego' 'description' and not our 'SELF'. Maybe to much thinking about possible futures / concepts and not enough being? I am not sure discussion can solve this as it's neither this or that. Maybe we should ask ourselves who lives and who dies?

 

Found this interesting:

 

 

Or this:

 

http://bhagavan-ramana.org/selfenquirytheory.html

 

∞

Edited September 2, 2014 by Infinity

[gendao]

This question has been asked before..

1. The twin goals of "enlightenment" & "immortality" are often listed as the ultimate neidan endgames.. However, "enlightenment" is often described as the transcendence of all duality (including Self)...whereas "immortality" would be the eternal preservation of "Self," no? It seems almost contradictory, but I suppose this "immortal self" that does goes on would be a transcendence of life/death (belonging not quite wholly to either state) as Sambhogakāya? Or no?

Answer: Damn, these are good questions! Give that man a cigar. It is no coincidence that George Lucas chose just these archetypes as the foundation of the Jedi and the Sith respectively: the Jedi dissolve into the Universe and become one with it; the Sith endure and promote their own "immortal self". Having studied Buddhism before the MoPai, these are questions that bothered me as well. Then there is the stanza in the Tao Te Ching that states (my translation) "those who retain their center endure, those who die but continue to exist are immortal".

I'm afraid I cannot really answer your question - I can offer an opinion , but not an answer. My opinion is that the Mass Unconscious, the Overmind if you will, resides beyond space and time in what the Chinese call yin, and what we today are calling gravity wells and dark matter. The more of our conscious mind that we pour into this Overmind, the more that is retained, until in the end you become a fully-fledged and voting member of the Board of Directors. I think that is what the fuss is about regarding the union of yin and yang. The Buddhist approach, as you know, involves essentially "melting" all the yang chakras so that the knots are freed and one's personality merges with Mind.

Which approach is correct? Who knows? I'm afraid I'm not really qualified to offer more of an answer, but thank you for the question - it was a good one.

Here's what I think are the best questions and my own answers to them:

Amazing question. And yes I would have to agree. Keeping your question in mind, I would recommend you read "The Diamond Sutra Explained" by Master Nan Huai-Chin... you would have many insights.

The Tripikaya originally is considered ONE thing.
The sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya are both rupakaya. The dharmakaya is the formless aspect of that Tripikaya.

I think that "ball of immortality" that you get when you combine your yin and yang energies, a sort of constructed immortal soul.. it could be considered a rupakaya or dharmakaya thing depending on where in the timeline you are with it.

nondualism > yin-yang converge > physical counterpart of yin chi and yang chi converge nondual Reality realization > dharmakaya level up! > can materialize as sambhogakaya >>> yang shen projects/nirmanakaya/etc.

Reportedly during this process you will be able to sense where your yin and yang chi and unite it although many Christian, Taoist and Zen masters just achieved this "centering" in complete and total ignorance of the body's energetics! Read the religious articles on meditationexpert.com to learn more about this phenomenon.

Any transcendent evolution of consciousness originates from dharmakaya improvement acts:
drop into nondualism
learn to rest in your own center
reach true samadhi
read prajna texts to help you detach, etc.

In short, yeah you're right. I just have to add that one's quest for dharmakaya, forgetting the self and all dualistic concepts through achievement of samadhi (using whatever centering technique is best), are key to accessing the sambhogakaya bioenergetics and not letting the power corrupt you in the end.

How exactly does the fusion of Yin Qi and Yang Qi in Houtian neidan (like MoPai) lead to enlightenment and/or immortality?

It basically gives birth to something else inside of you.. the immortal fetus.
Macrocosmic discussion:
Whenever yin and yang come together (if they are able to) something (1) beneficial and (2) revolutionary happens.
With the body: yin and yang (sperm and egg) combine and give a whole new life.
On a more psychotherapeutic spectrum: yin and yang (calmness and energy) create a more wholesome individual. Try this with other spectrums.

Try it with the paramitas.

And.. the rest of the answers were specific to Kosta I hope my answers to these questions provide some value to others as well.

[Satya]

This question has been asked before..

Post 31 http://thetaobums.com/topic/35922-how-does-all-of-this-neidanneigongqigongenergy-stuff-relate-to-non-dual-truth-and-enlightenment/page-2