Question on Secret of the Golden Flower

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Vitalii]

Wilhem and Walter Picca. I have also studied another translation which I believe is similar to Clary's and which is probably closer to my understanding of the text.

 

Just for information.

Translation made by Thomas Cleary contains many gaps and a part of the Chinese text seems to not have been translated. In translation made by Richard Wilhelm (and Walter Picca), we can find some very peculiar translations like "animus and anima", which distort the original meaning of characters that are used in the Chinese text.

Both translators sometimes translated the character Qi (气) as "breathing". This is not correct in respect to alchemical texts, because for "breath" the character Xi (息) has to be used.

Xing (性) is often translated as Essence. The phrase 性命不可见，寄之天光 - was translated by Cleary as "Essence and Life are invisible, so they are associated with sky and light". However, it'd be more correct to translate it like Xing (性) - Original Nature. Then the phrase 性命不可见，寄之天光 - should sound as "Original Nature [Xing] and life [Ming] cannot be seen. They are contained in the light of heaven".

All these mistakes distort the understanding of the text, and even a minor mistake can lead to big errors in practice as you know.

[Bearded Dragon]

3. The attention should be focused inwardly into the seat of consciousness (pineal gland)

 

Forget about the pineal gland. Focusing inwardly actually has nothing to do with going inside your body or brain. You can be looking into the distance and still focus inwardly. What you want to focus on is maintaining non-psychological awareness as much as is possible. Awareness is our core, therefore it's defined as inward even though it has no location. This is turning the light around to shine on the source.

 

Wear this on your forehead. If you keep going back to awareness it starts to become more natural. I think for me it feels like it will take over as the default state the more I go back to it and get used to it.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Harmonious Emptiness,

 

Thank you for your reply. I have read and re-read these particular sections. Stopping and observing is quite clear to me. The other section causes me confusion. When I look at the tip of the nose, I go cross-eyed and my eyes now sit at a particular angle. The plumb line points directly between the eyes. How to correctly interpret this?

 

1. The eyes should be crossed - leads to very bad muscular tension...

 

2. The attention (not the physical eyes) should be focused straight ahead between the eyes (on the front of the face) - I have been doing this for many months now as part of a separate practice and find it pleasant and constructive.

 

3. The attention should be focused inwardly into the seat of consciousness (pineal gland)

 

With method #2, I find that I can observe and concentrate alternatively for a long time. With #3, there is tension and inner confusion (perhaps just beginner's lack of practice) but the tiny thoughts are very, very clear and concentration seems less distracted.

 

The plumb line is about the height of the gaze. The passage is saying that when look down at the nose - that is the direction of the gaze / how much to lower the eyes, and once you've found the direction/height you can forget about focusing on anything in particular. He states that it's just a device to know how much to close the eyelids.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Vitalii]

Thank you, Vitalii. I find your commentary to be very interesting.

 

If one compares this with the Corpus Hermetica (which has a shared history and as far as I know, shares a virtually identical cosmology with Taoism), we find a similar teaching. That is, that the original man was created in the Fire and the Air, and it is the second man who incarnated in nature that is found in the water and the earth. This first man exists but cannot be seen.

 

I do not want to branch off on a tangent however. I am more interested to hear your thoughts on how these translation errors lead to misunderstanding of the practice (and more importantly, what is the right practice)?

 

Yours in brotherhood,

Frater UFA

 

cultivate breath and cultivate Qi are not the same

 

study of classical texts is very important in the study of Daoism. It was also emphasized in the treatise of Wang Chongyang "Shiwulun", where "the study of texts" is one of the statements mentioned.

Here is a fragment of my commentary to this statement:

"Before reading the sacred text, one should cleanse his heart from the worldly cares and to be like an empty vessel capable to perceive what it is being poured. The texts should not be read in a hurry and in haste; otherwise many of the truths and innermost moments will be missed. You need to study the text carefully and consciously as if you personally get these instructions from the teacher. After reading the text - meditate on read, because it contains a bottomless wisdom, which you will may have to comprehend during the whole life.

Read, ponder, analyze - but do not forget that apart from this, it is necessary to get a detailed explanation of the read from your Master. Despite the fact that the classical texts are sacred, as long as they are read by those students whose hearts are still not free from ignorance to the end, but the spirit of Shen does not have the pure clarity, even a correct instruction may be misunderstood. And given the fact that many treatises use symbolic language and intentionally miss many of the practical nuances that require the transmission from heart to heart, the mistake of understanding is not so difficult or rare.

Thus, errors can accumulate even when reading sacred texts, but the risk of this is upon the person oneself. If this continues for a long time, misconceptions rooted and true words of are no longer able to penetrate into your heart-mind, the spirit of Shen gets clouded, and the circulation of Qi is broken. Not realizing it, people may just keep moving away from Dao, more and more bogged down in the ocean of reincarnation.

Therefore, it must be remembered that the study of texts can only be truly effective when there is an alive Master, who on the one hand is able to point out any misunderstandings and wrongly interpreted parts of the treatise, and on the other hand, - to explain parts difficult for understanding".

[lifeforce]

The Secret of the Golden Flower is a manual of self inquiry. Turning inward to see reality as it is.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[joeblast]

Harmonious Emptiness,

 

Thank you for your reply. I have read and re-read these particular sections. Stopping and observing is quite clear to me. The other section causes me confusion. When I look at the tip of the nose, I go cross-eyed and my eyes now sit at a particular angle. The plumb line points directly between the eyes. How to correctly interpret this?

 

1. The eyes should be crossed - leads to very bad muscular tension...

 

2. The attention (not the physical eyes) should be focused straight ahead between the eyes (on the front of the face) - I have been doing this for many months now as part of a separate practice and find it pleasant and constructive.

 

3. The attention should be focused inwardly into the seat of consciousness (pineal gland)

 

With method #2, I find that I can observe and concentrate alternatively for a long time. With #3, there is tension and inner confusion (perhaps just beginner's lack of practice) but the tiny thoughts are very, very clear and concentration seems less distracted.

investigate the push-pull configuration of the eye ligaments, there is a certain focus that is relatively "most relaxed"

 

 

cultivate breath and cultivate Qi are not the same

 

study of classical texts is very important in the study of Daoism. It was also emphasized in the treatise of Wang Chongyang "Shiwulun", where "the study of texts" is one of the statements mentioned.

Here is a fragment of my commentary to this statement:

"Before reading the sacred text, one should cleanse his heart from the worldly cares and to be like an empty vessel capable to perceive what it is being poured. The texts should not be read in a hurry and in haste; otherwise many of the truths and innermost moments will be missed. You need to study the text carefully and consciously as if you personally get these instructions from the teacher. After reading the text - meditate on read, because it contains a bottomless wisdom, which you will may have to comprehend during the whole life.

Read, ponder, analyze - but do not forget that apart from this, it is necessary to get a detailed explanation of the read from your Master. Despite the fact that the classical texts are sacred, as long as they are read by those students whose hearts are still not free from ignorance to the end, but the spirit of Shen does not have the pure clarity, even a correct instruction may be misunderstood. And given the fact that many treatises use symbolic language and intentionally miss many of the practical nuances that require the transmission from heart to heart, the mistake of understanding is not so difficult or rare.

Thus, errors can accumulate even when reading sacred texts, but the risk of this is upon the person oneself. If this continues for a long time, misconceptions rooted and true words of are no longer able to penetrate into your heart-mind, the spirit of Shen gets clouded, and the circulation of Qi is broken. Not realizing it, people may just keep moving away from Dao, more and more bogged down in the ocean of reincarnation.

Therefore, it must be remembered that the study of texts can only be truly effective when there is an alive Master, who on the one hand is able to point out any misunderstandings and wrongly interpreted parts of the treatise, and on the other hand, - to explain parts difficult for understanding".

observe root nature and dont cling to appearances good stuff

[opendao]

I believe that there is a cultural difference between East and West which finds its way into the teachings. The alchemical practices have their roots in Egypt and it appears likely that the Taoist alchemical practices were influenced by Persian teachings. I am no historian and do not know if that is true.

 

No, it's not. But still there are some connections between Egypt and Ancient China...

 

What I do know is that a deep study of western alchemy texts reveals a very similar alchemical process as the Taoist one. There are differences, of course but they appear (to me) to point to the same fundamental process.

 

Yes, that's very correct.

 

Now as for the cultural differences. For whatever reason, in the West we find more of a spirit of individualism, independence, and ego. And it is a deep truth in these teachings that a human master is not necessary (although if one is fortunate to find one and see past their fallibilities, it is fortunate indeed). The One Mind will guide the Artist to the truth insofar as he is able to receive it.

 

Yes, this is true, but in 99.99% of the cases, One Mind guides a person to find a teacher. In any tradition. The exceptions are very rare, especially nowadays...

 

In Dao the fact is very simple: we know nobody who became Xian just by practising from books. You can check it by yourself and figure out what conclusion you can do based on that.

 

I recently have shared the light-hearted thought with my mentor that everyday, I am becoming more foolish. All of those smart things I thought I knew before were wrong. My head was filled with facts, sacred scriptures, and great wisdom. I knew nothing.

 

This is called "humility" in Dao. Good starting point every time we are lost.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Michael Sternbach]

I am tempted to ask you your thoughts on the connection between Egypt and China but time is short and I'd like to stay on point. Another day, i hope!

I recall that Joseph Needham mentions remarkable parallels between alchemy in Hellenistic Egypt and China somewhere in his "Science and Civilisation in Ancient China" series. Alas, I can't look it up at present.

 

I should not say that I am without a physical teacher. I do have a mentor right now (who is very skilled and which the One Mind led me to) and have had others in the past who have graciously helped me get as far as I was capable of going at the time.

 

It is only recently that the path (beyond personal integration) has become clear for me. You may be right about the One Mind leading the student to the teacher and I am open to that experience, however it is not exactly straightforward. How does one know when they have found a qualified teacher who really knows how to manifest the soul body? And to make this even more difficult, where do we begin to look for such a teacher grounded in the western tradition?

Rare indeed. But surely, the most perfect teacher abides inside you.

A parting thought - in western alchemy, it is said that there are many who were said to have attained the first attainment of the Philosopher's Stone through books, prayer, and study. But to be fair, I have also read that there are none who have gone beyond that stage without a teacher.

Rare that you see steps beyond finding the Philosopher's Stone mentioned at all. With very few exceptions, it's considered to be the highest attainment already.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[MooNiNite]

nevermind

Edited August 12, 2014 by MooNiNite

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Bearded Dragon]

Thank you, Bearded Dragon. It seems I am getting a variety of answers (or perhaps I am too simple-minded to truly understand them). I tend to hold those who claim sole possession of the truth with a certain degree of skepticism though. Your response however seems delightfully straightforward and dare I say, truthful.

 

Over many years of study in the western tradition, I have distilled two core practices which I hold dear. The first practice of concentration (yang) and the second of inward observation (yin). The latter has driven me deeper and deeper into the awareness over the past few months. In this time, I have made more progress than I had in the past twenty years. By progress, I largely mean psychological integration which has been punctuated with deep spiritual experiences (including two not on the physical plane).

 

I have never been able to reconcile these two practices. I dutifully performed them every day, using them as a base for my explorations but always coming back to them. My experiences are varied but the common thread is that they all tend to strip off what is false, if that makes any sense.

 

The inner contact has led me to this book but it never explains, never says why. It leaves that for me to determine. I cannot help but notice that this text describes a manner in which to combine these two practices. I suspect that when all pretense, all thought, all emotion, all motion and all resistance has been dropped, there will just lie a mysterious spirit, the prima materia. But this is conjecture, book learning. I cannot be sure.

 

I am just here humbly seeking and I share my gratitude with all of you who are willing to share your words with me.

 

Sounds like you're on the right track.

 

I have found a few different levels of concentration and inward observation along the way. Well, not so much levels in terms of achievement but rather the process seems to change a bit along the way. Sometimes I have to concentrate to maintain a grasp on awareness, but then once I relax into it I don't really have to and it's like awareness is just sitting there and everything is coming to it, rather than it is going out. It's passive. This is why I say that you should wear it on your forehead. If you're constantly going back to awareness when you lose it then you're constantly getting used to the state and bit by bit it becomes easier to stay in it. Then bit by bit you need less and less concentration. It becomes greater yin.

 

This is my experience in conjunction with countless hours of cross-referencing and picking out the core of it all, amidst many distractions.

[Michael Sternbach]

There are three degrees of the Stone... the first isn't altogether rare.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, as there are a number of Stones. Do you mean the Vegetable Stone? The White Stone? Or are you thinking of The Three Medicines according to Geber?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Daeluin]

To answer your question: yes and no. You are on the right track because you have found a true manual for practice, it contains all the quidance you need. That said, you are in danger of deviating from the right track barely starting on it unless you put aside your assumptions as to what the book says. There is nothing in there about the pineal gland or seat of consciousnes etc. Read the book, do not read your previous knowledge into it. Follow the book to a t, do what it says you to do. Do not do what it does not. It is as easy (or as hard) as that.

 

Practicing the main principles is what lead me to results. The framework of a class and teacher mainly helped me to be consistent with my practice, and most of my development kicked in with regular practice at home.

 

• Turning the light of the mind around helps one develop awareness of one's edges and leaks. It trains one to listen instead of seeking.
• Breathing in from the upper dan tien through the middle to the lower dan tien trains full body energy awareness and development.
• Along with turning the light around and cultivating a fine, soft breath, one cultivates a deep and refined qi.

 

In my experience sticking to these basic principles allowed things to develop naturally over time. The manual is similar to a map. It talks about landmarks one can't miss, and how to know if you're missing the mark. But to move across the map requires more doing than thinking.

[LBDaoist]

Thank you all for raising and contributing to this discussion. I have been dabbling in this practice myself and have an insight to share, and some questions.

 

"Focus on the nose" has been discussed in this topic. In my own practice, and based upon some more detailed readings, I interpret this mean that one should focus on the breathing. Specifically, turn the mind to the sensations in the nose while inhaling and exhaling. It has been mentioned in various sources that focusing on the nose is the first step in tuning the breathing, and I think that is what is being alluded to here. It is not a suggestion to go cross eyed and look at the nose.

 

My question has to do with keeping the eyes half closed / half opened. Which do you all find is more effective? I do not feel like I have this figured out yet. What I have experienced is that closing the eyes all the way and then trying to open them just enough to allow some light in generates a lot of tension. Where as relaxing the eyelids to a "half closed" position or "not fully open" position is a lot easier and less distracting.

 

For me, the practice of keeping the eyes somewhat open brings about a more focused, if slightly more "shallow" sense of focus and center. When I meditate with my eyes fully closed, I can "go deeper" into internal awareness, but doing so lacks stability. The sense of "falling into the void" is very real for me.

[joeblast]

given that there is a ratio of "cross hatching" that takes place where the optic nerves cross (an end result has to do with field of binocular vision) and also that there are 4 cranial nerves concerned with the eyes, this "slight eye cross" is basically akin to a default resting state of the push-pull dynamics of the eye musculature.

 

which is more effective honestly depends on the application, at least for me...