Question on Secret of the Golden Flower

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by FraterUFA

[LaoZiDao]

Hello,

 

I suggest you to read this article:

www.thetaobums.com/topic/35815-minor-schools-and-inconsistent-methods-from-zhong-l-chuan-dao-ji/

 

Regards

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[LaoZiDao]

I read three pages before I could take no more. I am not sure what value a thread of school/method bashing has to do with my question! Perhaps I have missed something?

 

Hi friend,

 

I refer you to read the article, the original post and not worry much about the bashing going on there, there is not much point to read this.

 

Why I ask you to read this is because it discusses the incorrect methods of alchemy. It is a text from the ancient times, a discussion between Ludongbin and Zhongliquan, both well known and respected Daoist Immortals.

 

I also suggest you read Liu Yiming's writings.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[LaoZiDao]

Unfortunately, the original article is wrong.

 

Please let us know which part is wrong? But I am not the one here making a thread asking for help on methods, nor will I strain my eye balls into the back of my head and assume that is Alchemy. Read the texts of Lui Yiming, and other books and show me where it said sitting practice is a method of restoring Yuanjing and Yuanqi, maybe I really missed something?

 

Also Liu Yiming warns the same things, methods are not in books and warns against all kinds of sitting practices.

 

"In Chapter 20, Liu Yiming lists several practices that can be mistaken...."

"These practices include traditional forms of meditation, for instance, inhaling the essences of the Sun and Moon, ingesting the breaths (qi) of “the clouds and the mist,” and concentrating “on the tip of the nose" among others..

 

So tell me how these Masters are wrong, with your support from texts, lineage and all.

 

Regards

Edited August 12, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[FraterUFA]

 

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[LaoZiDao]

That is the problem, right there.

 

That you can't support it with texts? And that you don't have a teacher?

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[LaoZiDao]

I have a teacher, indeed.

 

I respect and thank you for your service, brother. However, you waste your energies here.

 

Cool, so why are you on here asking for help, isn't a teacher for that?

 

We can discuss texts, history of Daoism and more interesting things. Are you not interested, and hold no respect for scriptures?

[forestofclarity]

Are you using an English translation? If so, which one?

[Michael Sternbach]

First off, The Secret of the Golden Flower is a well reputed classical text of Neigong studied by C. G. Jung and other great researchers of consciousness. It is a method for performing the Great Circulation and resembles in some ways Japanese zazen (sitting meditation) which could indeed be seen as a simplified version of the latter.

However, the process of trying to look backwards into the seat of consciousness was incredibly difficult for me! For twenty years, I have noticed how my consciousness seems to emanate from the pineal gland... but never once have I tried to study it (genius!) When I did so, I found myself struggling to find it... my inner vision was looking ahead of the point, then behind it, and then it seemed like I was watching myself watching myself (as if I was overlaid on top of me, if that makes any sense). I don't think I got anywhere with the ears.

Well, that surely doesn't sound like a bad going to me, especially for the first try!

 

Then with all my might I tried to turn my inner vision backwards and struggled with muscular tension in the head. But then for a few seconds, it seemed like my awareness was kind of like a sphere and I was looking in.

Don't force anything. The sphere vision sounds really interesting, though. If you just let your awareness gently hover in the vicinity of the center, you will get there over time, I think, and without potentially damaging yourself. Impatience is among the greatest obstacles in internal and external alchemy. It spoils the work.

 

May joy be yours, too!

Michael

Edited August 12, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

 

Please let us know which part is wrong? But I am not the one here making a thread asking for help on methods, nor will I strain my eye balls into the back of my head and assume that is Alchemy. Read the texts of Lui Yiming, and other books and show me where it said sitting practice is a method of restoring Yuanjing and Yuanqi, maybe I really missed something?

 

Also Liu Yiming warns the same things, methods are not in books and warns against all kinds of sitting practices.

 

"In Chapter 20, Liu Yiming lists several practices that can be mistaken...."

"These practices include traditional forms of meditation, for instance, inhaling the essences of the Sun and Moon, ingesting the breaths (qi) of “the clouds and the mist,” and concentrating “on the tip of the nose" among others..

 

So tell me how these Masters are wrong, with your support from texts, lineage and all.

 

Regards

 

Perhaps you would like to show us some of your understanding of the texts by re-translating the following paragraph:

 

 

昏沉欲睡，即起散步，神清再坐。清晨有暇，坐一蛀香为妙。过午人事多扰，易落昏沉，然亦不必限定一蛀香，只要诸缘放下，静坐片时，久久便有入头，不落昏沉睡者

 

"16. When you sink into oblivion and become sleepy, you should stand up and walk about. When the spirit has become clear one should sit down again. It is best to sit in the early morning when you have free time, for as long as it takes to burn an incense stick. After noontime when there are many things to do, it's easy to fall into oblivion. Also, there's no need to fix the length of time of meditation; it is only essential to set aside all entanglements and sit quietly for a while. In the course of time you will attain absorption and not become oblivious or sleepy."

 

- from Secret of the Golden Flower, chapter 4

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I suggest to take another look at chapter three:

 

(from http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch3.html)

 

 

Looking at the tip of the nose serves only as the beginning of the inner concentration, so that the eyes are brought into the right direction for looking, and then are held to the guideline: after that, one can let it be. That is the way a mason hangs up a plumb-line. As soon as he has hung it up, he guides his work by it without continually bothering himself to look at the plumb-line.

 

"Hey man, what are you staring at?"

"Nuthin'...."

 

 

.... you should investigate this thought: where is it? Where does it come from? Where does it go? Repeat this inquiry until you realize it cannot be grasped, then you will see where thoughts arise. After that you don`t need to seek out the point of arising any more. Having looked for my mind, I realize it cannot be grasped; I have pacified your mind for you.

20. This is right observation. What opposes this is incorrect. Once one realizes it cannot be grasped, one still continuously practices stopping, followed by observing, practices observing followed by stopping. This is the double cultivation of stopping and observing. This is turning the light around.

21. The turning around is stopping, the light is observing. Stopping without observing is called turning around without light; observing without stopping is called having the light without turning it around. Remember this.

[emphasis mine]

 

 

Stopping and observing are explained in the rest of the chapter.

[opendao]

Stopping and observing are explained in the rest of the chapter.

 

Such attempts all people can do infinite, and I've done it as well. Many times. I've invented my own system and it did even work . I got some "experiences and miracles". I've been arguing with my teacher proving that people can learn Dao from books... Then I received a first alchemy exercise from my teacher, and after that I gave up: the amount of important details just for one exercise was so huge, so I realized that even knowing the exercise, I cannot find all these necessary details in books. Moreover, to teach the same exercise you need another set of instructions. And this I couldn't find in books too. Yes, there are some hints here and there, but not everything and usually it's just a hint for indoor students and teachers. Many such things I could realize only when I was pointed out to them directly by the teacher... So I suggest to do not read books so literally, every word has a sense, and this sense is far from ordinary... Many things are hidden in the language and context. I listen to people with a proven experience in the tradition now, not to myself any more, so I can say for sure that texts are necessary but they have no instructions :-) I wish you to realize the same and exit out the infinite circle.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

opendao,

 

what was your qigong experience like previous to meeting your teacher? Did you practice any styles in particular?

[opendao]

opendao,

 

what was your qigong experience like previous to meeting your teacher? Did you practice any styles in particular?

 

No, at that time "I ate everything I saw", so basically it was a mix of my misunderstanding from qigong (zhong yuan for example), yoga (patanjali, kryia etc), hesychasm, castaneda and maybe something else. Breathing, "taming the mind", "no mind", use of imagination and will to work with qi, meditations, out-of-the body, "no action", a lot of pseudo-internal martial arts etc. Usual things. I've tried almost everything on the market. I even had a teacher (with no lineage of course) :-\ So when somebody asks me "why you are so critical", I answer that it's because I know enough what is on the market, how it works and how it is different from Neidan experience. And I really think it's good to save somebody's 10-20 years of life by not repeating my mistakes.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So just intro level to them all it sounds like..

[Taoist Texts]

Greetings to all my friends in the Tao,

 

I am hoping for some guidance from those of you with more experience. I have begun to study the Secret of the Golden Flower and yesterday attempted the meditation for the first time. I have previous experience in concentration exercises, mindfulness, as well as what I call the practice of pratyahara (noticing the waves of thought as they pass and gently quieting the mind).

 

I found this exercise to be a very interesting blend of both observation and concentration. I also found it easier for some reason to notice the thought-lets as they pass. They seemed much clearer than usual, perhaps because I was trying to focus the inner vision and hearing in a concentrated area.

 

However, the process of trying to look backwards into the seat of consciousness was incredibly difficult for me! For twenty years, I have noticed how my consciousness seems to emanate from the pineal gland... but never once have I tried to study it (genius!) When I did so, I found myself struggling to find it... my inner vision was looking ahead of the point, then behind it, and then it seemed like I was watching myself watching myself (as if I was overlaid on top of me, if that makes any sense). I don't think I got anywhere with the ears.

 

Then with all my might I tried to turn my inner vision backwards and struggled with muscular tension in the head. But then for a few seconds, it seemed like my awareness was kind of like a sphere and I was looking in.

 

I realize that any new practice will not be skillful at first. But am I on the right track? Can anyone provide some guidance to a beginner?

 

May joy be yours!

Frater UFA

Greetings and salutations Frater.

 

To answer your question: yes and no. You are on the right track because you have found a true manual for practice, it contains all the quidance you need. That said, you are in danger of deviating from the right track barely starting on it unless you put aside your assumptions as to what the book says. There is nothing in there about the pineal gland or seat of consciousnes etc. Read the book, do not read your previous knowledge into it. Follow the book to a t, do what it says you to do. Do not do what it does not. It is as easy (or as hard) as that.

[LaoZiDao]

So just intro level to them all it sounds like..

 

I think you jumped to an assumption here..

 

 

 

 

[opendao]

So just intro level to them all it sounds like..

 

then it's your fate, take GF or other texts and repeat. See you in 2030.

 

"People are people so why should it be

You and I should get along so awfully"

 

At least at TTB I got understanding why Neidan masters from China are SO sceptical about teaching foreigners...

[opendao]

To answer your question: yes and no. You are on the right track because you have found a true manual for practice, it contains all the quidance you need. That said, you are in danger of deviating from the right track barely starting on it unless you put aside your assumptions as to what the book says. There is nothing in there about the pineal gland or seat of consciousnes etc. Read the book, do not read your previous knowledge into it. Follow the book to a t, do what it says you to do. Do not do what it does not. It is as easy (or as hard) as that.

 

And if something goes wrong from such "practices", just call TTB, such responsible people here will advice something to heal you...

 

"What makes a man

Hate another man

Help me understand" (just same song)

Edited August 12, 2014 by opendao