Refinement occurs regardless

[Songtsan]

This is the heart of non-doing. Which means that there is someone else out there doing the doing for you, which is why you can relax.

 

Who is this someone else?

 

Everyone else?

 

The wishes of mankind made manifest by the Unseen doer?

 

Anyways, here are some interesting topics:

 

-What is the most efficient way to assist the process of wu wei? What should one do?

 

My take: Resolve to be selfless, aware, and ready to encourage growth through executing the bodyminds functions as the Unseen Doer sees fit. Contribute as much as you can, however you can, whenever possible, and try not to interfere also. Time spent in ego aggrandizement is time spent in a solo search...this is where you leave the suggested track and make your mistakes, and again come back to toe the line towards eternal unfoldment of virtue, grace, and beauty.

 

The ugliness of the ego is the salt and pepper, the spice of life. We do this part.

 

 

-Fear of letting go:

 

My take: Fear to lose those treasures which we have hoarded, fear to miss out on those sites which we have longed to see, fear to be embarrassed, fear to lose friends, lose family - attachment based.

 

Many of us go through periods of semi-letting go (via meditation, sesshin, etc.). Some just give in and give up all ego desires. These are the God/dess Units, walking men and women who are rare indeed. To let go of all attachments, become a servant of God/dess, an extension really, is such an amazing act. I have great curiosity about this path. The seer will not cease to exist, and will go on many strange rides, as God/dess does what God/dess will. The complete and utter absence of earthly ego would present a full manifestation of The One.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Well, I agree with you regarding fear but you went to places with that I do not go.

 

Yes, ego can be a self-inflicted problem as well.

[MooNiNite]

are you talking about people who abandon shelter and friends and just travel where the universe takes them and do what the universe wants?

 

Many of us go through periods of semi-letting go (via meditation, sesshin, etc.). Some just give in and give up all ego desires. These are the God/dess Units, walking men and women who are rare indeed. To let go of all attachments, become a servant of God/dess, an extension really, is such an amazing act. I have great curiosity about this path. The seer will not cease to exist, and will go on many strange rides, as God/dess does what God/dess will. The complete and utter absence of earthly ego would present a full manifestation o

[Jetsun]

Refinement, healing, enlightenment is always trying to work its way through us, the issue is that we resist it.

[Songtsan]

are you talking about people who abandon shelter and friends and just travel where the universe takes them and do what the universe wants?

 

I am talking about the God-intoxicated, those who have no ego left out of sheer relinquishment of it. One couldn't even say that they abandon anything but the ego...I mainly hear about this in India.

[Songtsan]

In response to the title of this thread only,

 

Refinement does not necessarily happen regardless.

 

It depends. On a multitude of factors.

 

For many, it's unrefinement that happens regardless. Losing coherence. Leaking of the spiritual energy. Turning increasingly away from the sunny sun.

 

Open the curtains to let the sun shine back in...!

 

I think it does, and because of this: We are not wholly separate, just the illusion of such. So we all get dragged along in the currents of the many, which is eventual refinement. Now there may seem to be backstepping, or unrefinement...but this is temporary in the long run, where the tendency is forward progress.

 

I am saying this from my studies of Vedanta to a great degree. They mention the end of the Kali yuga, levels of ignorance and spiritual distance being stripped away.

 

I also have studied evolutionary psychology to some degree and see similar trends.

 

However, there is entropy to deal with, spiritual and otherwise...

 

Doesn't it seem like the world is becoming more enlightened when you take a broad historical view?

 

Honestly, I really would like to study history more. It does seem that we are becoming less ignorant as a whole.

 

As ignorance is the root cause of suffering and distance from unity, I hesitantly conjecture that enlightenment for the whole species is relatively close...including even other species of beings...

[GrandmasterP]

I am talking about the God-intoxicated, those who have no ego left out of sheer relinquishment of it. One couldn't even say that they abandon anything but the ego...I mainly hear about this in India.

 

It's not unknown for some seniors to opt for becoming a wandering saddhu as a retirement option over in India.

They are respected and supported wherever they wander.

It might be difficult to do the same here in the west though.

[Songtsan]

It's not unknown for some seniors to opt for becoming a wandering saddhu as a retirement option over in India. They are respected and supported wherever they wander. It might be difficult to do the same here in the west though.

 

For now, but I sense that this is short-term. Besides, a 'God owned and operated' individual can take care of themselves anywhere, I think, because God is flexible. I doubt that they would appear the same way here as they do in India...God has unlimited faces and styles...

 

I have often wondered this:

 

What if I just stopped producing any actions - just allowed myself to drop ALL actions. I know that there would be someone or something that would keep moving and doing - as this already happens. I generally spend at least an hour in total every day watching this other do things with the architecture that I call my body mind.

 

I could increase this by simply not doing anything myself for as often as I could 'remember not to do.'

[GrandmasterP]

Well good luck with that if you decide to do it.

 

[Songtsan]

Well good luck with that if you decide to do it.

 

If I decide to do it and succeed, then there is no more 'I' that has succeeded! lol

 

success would equal dissolution.

 

I might try, but that would be years down the road. I am way too attached to my ego, and yet, I know deep down that entering this would be way more intoxicating than any ego-driven path I could accomplish.

[GrandmasterP]

India might be a good call.

Saddhu's get a decent living in India plus you don't need warm clothes and can camp out, if necessary; all year round.

I met some very jolly saddhus when I worked in India.

Those guys have pretty much got it together IMO.

Edited August 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Songtsan]

India might be a good call.

Saddhu's get a decent living in India plus you don't need warm clothes and can camp out, if necessary; all year round.

I met some very jolly saddhus when I worked in India.

Those guys have pretty much got it together IMO.

 

I want to try - I might save up like $5000 and go, and slowly let myself become less and less of a man, and more of a God...I would just bank a return trip flight and after a while, when I was comfortable - just trust in the universe and let go of all possessions and just be without thought or intention. It would be like a form of suicide.

 

I could try it here too I guess - I just don't want to end up in jail again for any weird reason...but then again - its an act of surrendering, so I would have to let go of that aversion.

 

I think they would treat me better in India if I decided to 'take off my clothes' so to speak.

 

I think of the naked sadhus wandering over there - such freedom, they just let their bodies do yoga spontaneously all day/night long.

 

Yoga meaning union, they unionize with their bodies natural functions, and just be!

 

So interesting - and stress free I bet.

[aboo]

At times I've considered moving to that part of the world: India or South East Asia. I guess, the practical issue is, as a westerner, can we get a VISA? I know for countries like Thailand it is very difficult for a young man with no money or job prospects to stay longer than 60-90 days. I haven't looked into India, but I am guessing it's difficult to get a residency VISA, I suspect GrandmasterP will know more about that.

 

I often wonder if terms like cultivation, realisation, refinement, can mislead somewhat. As, to me, it indicates a process of gaining something, level by level, and reinforces striving after. I suspect there is only the present experience and while the mind is a useful tool for the survival of the body, it will take you on a merry dance of chasing this and that.

[Spotless]

"Refinement occurs regardless"?

 

In the relative a plant may live and die and rot away and once again become elements but even in that a patina of its life is left in those elements - but a plant does not have free will.

 

In spirit a spirit may become stuck and remain stuck for an eternity with its only "hope" being a wizzardly god boiling it down to that point at which it became stuck or if not that then complete deconstruction even of the patina - zero point. This is rare enough that saying "refinement occurs regardless" feels right but it is not true - though we can do, as we are predisposed to do here in the west, and argue that in the end even that is a refinement of the whole - but I believe the original post was directed to us humans and not "the vast refinement of the all..............and everything".

Edited August 15, 2014 by Spotless

[Songtsan]

 

At times I've considered moving to that part of the world: India or South East Asia. I guess, the practical issue is, as a westerner, can we get a VISA? I know for countries like Thailand it is very difficult for a young man with no money or job prospects to stay longer than 60-90 days. I haven't looked into India, but I am guessing it's difficult to get a residency VISA, I suspect GrandmasterP will know more about that.

 

I have heard that one can get a 6 month visa for India...and also a 6 month for Nepal...They say that one can then travel back and forth between the two for as long as one wants. I have not verified this.

 

I often wonder if terms like cultivation, realisation, refinement, can mislead somewhat. As, to me, it indicates a process of gaining something, level by level, and reinforces striving after. I suspect there is only the present experience and while the mind is a useful tool for the survival of the body, it will take you on a merry dance of chasing this and that.

 

I agree!

Edited August 15, 2014 by Songtsan

[Spotless]

We are born in light - and we gravitate through our customs to a frightened stone like rigidity - in the vast overall picture laid out in an eternity we can postulate that according to all of our favorite sage master quotables that this rigidity will eventually harden in to diamond but down where the rubber meets the road - our fears more often than not bind fear upon them and we die nearly a black diamond with a stunned look upon our soul of "WTF?!"

 

The face of Awakening is not easily seen - not here in the West - not even in the East.

Here in the west we look high into the sky for those that have not even a "shred of ego" yet as the bricks we are we do not have the capacity to see what form this may take. We sit next to an enlightened individual and quote to them unknowingly what a "perfected person" will look like and they hear us as a cricket making noise in the bush who has not even the slightest inkling what they are talking about but they are delighted none the less that this cricket is at least trying to assemble its projections along the lines of something the cricket takes to be noble.

 

In India with its richness and filth and colors and grit and brilliant mind one can attain Awakening and it is possible for it to arrive in a questionable package. Here in the west we do not have a tradition of stories that show us the face of awakening, we will only accept perfection and prefer the package to be attractive. And we do not want our sons and daughters to "chase it".

 

I have mentioned watching batgap.com - the first 200 interviews are primarily of stories of people who have awakened here in the west. Most of those being interviewed in the first 200 interviews did not even have a website and a number of them are not teaching or interested in teaching. Many had no idea what had happened to them - some sought help from western medical.

 

It is important to familiarize ourselves with less extreme ideas about the process and really make an effort to hear our mentors.

Every teacher that has ever been enlightened has told us that "heaven is at hand" that enlightenment is "only a moment away" yet our stratospheric projections have us hearing these very words as "when you have become godlike and relinquished every shed of desire and you are without and of nothing - only then can you become".

 

It is really not like this at all - it is very different though and far more simple than we think - setting thinking aside is a very good step in the right direction. At a certain point all the buzz in the world becomes loud and intolerable and it swiftly moves into the background.

Even ones own buzz becomes background noise - which means to those on the outside that buzz appears to exist in this person therefore they cannot possibly be a "water walking perfect person with no shred of ego", but this is not the case.

 

At the very least in listening to batgap.com one can see just how much judgement one has in this regard but in reality enlightenment comes in many forms - not just distilled versions of perfect perfection.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Spotless

[Songtsan]

. Even ones own buzz becomes background noise - which means to those on the outside that buzz appears to exist in this person therefore they cannot possibly be a "water walking perfect person with no shred of ego", but this is not the case. At the very least in listening to batgap.com one can see just how much judgement one has in this regard but in reality enlightenment comes in many forms - not just distilled versions of perfect perfection.

 

I am not seeking what you describe - what I seek is more of a fun game, of dropping all whims, fancies, etc. and allowing the Shakti to take over all action...I dabble in this to a small extent daily, but what I want is to try to do it fully and for a while and see what happens. I don't consider it to be a perfected state - simply another option in a world filled with limitless options. I do not elevate such individuals above the rest of humanity, I simply think that they are rare and unique and thus worthwhile to pursue that type of being.

 

I believe that we will all experience, at some point, everything we have ever wished to experience. This is God's Gift. All wishes become actualized over many lifetimes.

 

This is simply yet another one of my wishes, and seems more intoxicating to me because it involves such ultimate acts of surrender.

 

Avadhuta-hood

[GrandmasterP]

At times I've considered moving to that part of the world: India or South East Asia. I guess, the practical issue is, as a westerner, can we get a VISA? I know for countries like Thailand it is very difficult for a young man with no money or job prospects to stay longer than 60-90 days. I haven't looked into India, but I am guessing it's difficult to get a residency VISA, I suspect GrandmasterP will know more about that.

 

I often wonder if terms like cultivation, realisation, refinement, can mislead somewhat. As, to me, it indicates a process of gaining something, level by level, and reinforces striving after. I suspect there is only the present experience and while the mind is a useful tool for the survival of the body, it will take you on a merry dance of chasing this and that.

 

India is easy enough for visas.

Lots of westerners theree who have been there years.

Worst call is you pop over to Bangladesh for a week then come back in, generally a coupla hundred rupees sweetener to the local Panch (Mayor) sorts out any issues.

I was there on winter contracts for five years, we went out in October/ November and came home end of May each year.

May through August in South India sod all happens cos it's too hot and then the Monsoon arrives.

Any major work happens between October and May.

 

[MooNiNite]

in my experience most of the people wandering in India are not enlightened.. :/

 

there are a lot of sayings like, I wandered the world but didnt find god until i looked inside

[Songtsan]

in my experience most of the people wandering in India are not enlightened.. :/

 

there are a lot of sayings like, I wandered the world but didnt find god until i looked inside

 

I don't think that there is necesarily anything special about India, but I simply wanted to go there out of sheer curiosity...never been anywhere but Canada and Hawaii, and that's basically the same as USA...

 

But yes, the things I seek are all within...

 

Without is the same as within in some ways....but going direct to source is faster....

[MooNiNite]

I don't think that there is necesarily anything special about India, but I simply wanted to go there out of sheer curiosity...never been anywhere but Canada and Hawaii, and that's basically the same as USA...

 

But yes, the things I seek are all within...

 

Without is the same as within in some ways....but going direct to source is faster....

 

i couldnt say which way is faster

 

 

Buddha merly says, "don't rely on anyone or anything"

 

this could be a way to free one's mind from others in an external sense

Edited August 16, 2014 by MooNiNite

[Songtsan]

i couldnt say which way is faster

 

 

Buddha merly says, "don't rely on anyone or anything"

 

this could be a way to free one's mind from others in an external sense

 

I am not necesarily relying on anything. I have lately curtailed my rush to enlightenment to enjoy the sights of the illusionary sea of Maya. Enlightenment is inevitable.

[MooNiNite]

I am not necesarily relying on anything. I have lately curtailed my rush to enlightenment to enjoy the sights of the illusionary sea of Maya. Enlightenment is inevitable.

 

people who think this way usually don't achieve in this lifetime. I think it's important to think both ways, but you prolly understand that

[Songtsan]

people who think this way usually don't achieve in this lifetime. I think it's important to think both ways, but you prolly understand that

 

I don't mind - everyone is worried that if they don't make it, some great chance will have been lost. I too worry in this way from time to time. At this specific moment I am not. I will worry again in the future I am sure!

 

What is so great about enlightenment?

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, etc....know what I mean

 

Is it the penultimate experience?

 

Is it the tastiest dish?

 

Is my Slush Puppie not the equal of that Baked Alaska?

 

Oh my! I will go cry that I am not yet an elite member of the team.

 

Not really being facetious to the level you might think guys, I am simply comfortable (for a while).

 

EDIT:

 

Not really, deep down in me somewhere lies the seed of wanting to attain That, so I can call myself a Big Boy. No joke!

 

I want to be a MahaSiddha! yep yep....

Edited August 16, 2014 by Songtsan

[MooNiNite]

I don't mind - everyone is worried that if they don't make it, some great chance will have been lost. I too worry in this way from time to time. At this specific moment I am not. I will worry again in the future I am sure!

 

What is so great about enlightenment?

 

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, etc....know what I mean

 

Is it the penultimate experience?

 

Is it the tastiest dish?

 

Is my Slush Puppie not the equal of that Baked Alaska?

 

Oh my! I will go cry that I am not yet an elite member of the team.

 

Not really being facetious to the level you might think guys, I am simply comfortable (for a while).

 

EDIT:

 

Not really, deep down in me somewhere lies the seed of wanting to attain That, so I can call myself a Big Boy. No joke!

 

I want to be a MahaSiddha! yep yep....

 

well it is the experience of actually becoming alive.

 

^{many would say you're asleep and your life is constantly caught in suffering.}