Houtian gong/post-heaven skill

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So with the recent talks of xiantian/pre-heaven/Neidan, perhaps it would be interesting to explore houtian/post-heaven development.

 

Some areas to consider being chi gong, and material destiny (if I may).

 

In the conversation, I'd also like to hear/be interested to hear thoughts on the realization of non-self and not-self. What realm is this? Xiantian? Houtian? Maybe the difference lies in the logical understanding of it being houtian, and the shen experience being xiantian?

 

Further:

 

Wealth. A legitimate houtian Daoist cultivation?

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

问曰：修行人首戒悭吝财物，既曰要世间财，又曰悭吝神仙不肯来，到底用财不用财乎？

Question: the foremost prohibition for a practitioner is to be stingy with money and goods, it is also said that there is a requirement for the worldly wealth, also it is said that the spiritual immortals would not agree to come to the stingy ones, so, at the end of the day, should one use money or should not use money?

答曰：用而不用。夫财者，人之所爱，以财为用，易取人之欢心，易买天之真宝，而天人无不在其术中矣。倘无财而欲得真宝，是强取强求，不但天不我从，而人亦不我顺，便是少行悭吝，神仙怎得而来？此世财之所必用也。然财易足败人德行，伤人性命，一惜其财，则我为财所愚，无不听其财之使用。故必德先财后，以德为本，以财为末，此世财之所不用也。 但此世财，有世间之善财，有世间之凡财，不可不辩。

Answer: use but do not use. The money is what people love, so the money is used both to attract human hearts easily, and to easily buy the true Heavenly gem, so amongst Heaven and the people there is nothing that would not be (obtained) through this skill (of using money). If there is no money used but you still want to obtain the true gem, it will mean forcefully taking and forcefully seeking, and in this case not only Heaven will not condescend to you, but the people also will not be agreeable to you; that will be exactly a case of petty conduct and of stinginess, and how would you obtain for the spiritual immortals to come to you?

So the worldly wealth must be certainly used. But with wealth it is easy to harm people’s virtuous conduct, to damage peoples’ xing-ming, so if you are miserly with wealth - then it means that you make a stupid use of wealth, and you never have heard about how the wealth should be used. Thus one must be virtuous first and use money later, make De the root, and make money the branches, and that would be “not using” the worldly wealth. However, in this worldly wealth there is a good wealth and there is a vulgar wealth, so you must differentiate those.

 

(Liu Yi-ming)

[effilang]

So with the recent talks of xiantian/pre-heaven/Neidan, perhaps it would be interesting to explore houtian/post-heaven development.

 

Some areas to consider being chi gong, and material destiny (if I may).

 

In the conversation, I'd also like to hear/be interested to hear thoughts on the realization of non-self and not-self. What realm is this? Xiantian? Houtian? Maybe the difference lies in the logical understanding of it being houtian, and the shen experience being xiantian?

 

Further:

 

Wealth. A legitimate houtian Daoist cultivation?

 

There are pre-heaven San Bao: Original Jing, Original Qi and Original Shen.

There are post-heaven San Bao: Jing, Qi and Shen.

 

There are two ways.

The forward way and the reverse way; the human way and the heavenly way.

The former creates the corporeal birth of the physical body, which is temporary, while the latter the birth of the non-physical body, which is immortal.

 

The pre-heaven San Bao are formless. In stillness they reverse on the path of creation and unite.

The 3 unite into the 2, the 2 return to the one, the one becomes one with everything: Jing, Qi, Shen > Taiji > Wuji > Tao

 

In movement (of the acquired heart/mind) the pre-heaven San Bao create the post-heaven San Bao.

Original Jing gives birth to Jing; the physical body, hormones, chemicals, sexual essences, bones, tendons, muscles etc.

Original QI gives birth to the Qi within the meridians that animate and maintain the human complex.

Original Shen gives birth to Shen, the acquired-mind (Zhishen)

 

Post-heavenly Jing, Qi and Shen are interconnected. They support each other and one creates the other, all three nourishing and maintaining one another. The same goes for post-heaven Jing, Qi and Shen.

 

Within the core of the post-heavenly manifestation of the pre-heavenly San Bao, lies a spark of the pre-heavenly.

It is in this way that we can start from where we are, the physical, the formless, the post-heavenly; and revert back to the pre-heavenly.

 

If the post-heavenly San Bao are not regulated, purified, and strengthened; the pre-heavenly will constantly be in motion, constantly in use, untill their dissipation, which will lead to the physical death.

 

By regulating the post-heavenly Jing, Qi, Shen ie: Jing, through exercise, Qi through Qigong, Shen through stilness meditation, we can still the post-heavenly, which in turn will still the pre-heavenly.

 

It is only in this stillness, that the path can be reversed.

 

Tao > Wuji > Taiji.

 

Because the post-heavenly Jing, Qi and Shen are of the body, energy and acquired-mind, they are of FORM, they are thus resident in the domain of Taiji; duality.

 

First you must strengthen the post-natal in order to create a solid foundation.

This allows for the body to become a sturdy container for the future alchemical transformations of spirit. It must be clean, like a laboratory beaker must be cleaned.

 

Post-natal JING, Post-natal Qi, Post-natal SHEN = TAIJI DOMAIN

Post-natal Shen is the most refined energy in Taiji (Duality), but the coarsest energy of Wuji (Non-Duality)

 

Thus, in order for a practitioner to begin cultivating Wuji (emptiness, non-duality), they must first reach SHEN.

Everything before this, is a post-heavenly Taiji practice, which is of the form and of the body and of the corporeal and temporal condition. To perfect Taiji will not grant you immortality.

 

After one reaches Shen, then they can start cultivating Wuji.

Different practices start in different places.

 

A traditional Hou-Tian practitioner will first work with Jing, Qi and Shen.

His body, will become strong, his Qi will become strong, his mind will become strong.

These are all strengths of the physical realm.

 

When he reaches Shen, he will start the real spiritual cultivation.

 

Some other schools, will first activate their Shen, then their Qi, then their Jing.

Other schools will do all 3 simultaneously and some concentrate only on 1.

 

No matter how much you practice, if you restrict yourself to developing only the post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen, you will always be stuck in Taiji. You may achieve Yin Shen; corpse freed immortality and wonderful skills, but you will not be complete Yang and you will not have complete wiped out the mundane and conditioned Yin aspects of your entire existence.

 

Genuine alchemical practices cultivate the formless and reverse the path of creation, however the spark of the formless is within the form of the body. Why else would we be birthed into a physical body in the first place if not to utilize it as a vessel for transformation. Thus, we use the post-natal to illuminate the pre-natal, then use the pre-natal to completely erradicate all traces of the post-natal Yin condition.

 

To think that you can go to the gym and build muscles to be come an immortal is stupid; this is cultivating post-natal Jing.

To think that you can practice Qigong and Pranayama and become an immortal is stupid; this is cultivating post-natal Qi.

To think that you can practice puzzles and games to train the mind and become an immortal is stupid, this is cultivating post-natal Shen.

 

These are the forms of the formless pre-natal, pre-heavenly Jing, Qi and Shen.

 

The most important thing to understand is that the body should not be treated as something which must be gotten rid of.

The body is our one very precious tool, which we must use in order to reinvigorate the pre-natal and plant the true seed, so that the internal, reverse birth of the Xian Tian path can be created and the immortal can be born.

 

At what time you start practicing in your life, will determine whether you can directly begin refining Shen to leap over Taiji and enter Wuji, or if you will first have to start with the physical, body, physical energy and physical mind, before you can start refining pre-natal Shen to Wuji.

 

Realization and non-self cannot be found in Taiji, they are a product of the refined acquired consciousness and pre-natal Shen, entering Wuji in union. This is where the voidless emptiness can be witnessed, the unborn potential of all creation.

[opendao]

All these words about houtian and xiantian are just to show what people don't understand... Repeating words from popular books and forums - does it make any sense? After reading, could you get the difference between Hetu 河圖 and Luoshu 洛書?

 

If you want to speak about Qigong (Yangshengong), then there are good old systems worth to study, learn and practice for the entire life. They can give you a good health, sharp mind, calm heart, longevity and overall well being. You don't need even to read Neidan theories to achieve such goals, especially if you find a teacher. Sure if you live in harmony and change your bad habits, you will have enough money. Prosperity is just another side of your correct development as a human being. No-Self is a state of consciousness. You can get it by "quite sitting" or other simple exercises.

 

But all that has no relation to what is "houtian" in Neidan. We cannot use popular definitions from doubtful sources, because the correct meaning of such terms as houtian, houtian jing, Taiji, Wuji, Yinshen can be easily found in specific Neidan texts. Then an attentive reader can see that it's very far from popular beliefs and "common sense" explanations.

 

Yangshenggong can help initially, just to make your heart a bit more open for Dao teaching. But Dao practice doesn't need anything like Qigong or meditation to be successful even for old and sick people. Houtian is used absolutely different way, so don't be confused by other confused people.

 

[effilang]

But Dao practice doesn't need anything like Qigong or meditation...

 

[Taoist Texts]

 

But Dao practice doesn't need anything like Qigong or meditation...

 

But Dao practice doesn't need anything ...

But Dao practice ...

But Dao ...

But ...

...

[opendao]

But Dao practice doesn't need anything ...

 

for some ignorant people who cannot even read, qigong and meditation are the only practices they know.

 

They think they practice Dao, but Dao teachers think that they are in illusions. Sure thing, it's easier to troll on forums, then looking for a good teacher.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks everyone for sharing your information on this. It's a lot for me to get to all at once.

 

What I think of as "houtian" is - how one lives in this world, internally and externally. This could mean "post natal" but it also has to do with one's houtian development.

 

Thank you effliang for pointing out how the seed of xiantian is in houtian. It does seem obvious that we need to open the air-hole a bit, so that our houtian world, internally and externally, is infused, and aligned, with xiantian (though I may not have the words to "correctly" describe this).

 

Some may not be all that concerned with xiantian development, which in many cases may take over 9 years in a cave for an attainment about as difficult to attain to as sprinting up the side of Huashan. Factoring in the Buddhist view of reality, it just might not even seem all that important to some.

 

Regardless, it's not to say that post-natal houtian development doesn't have at least a small hole in the ceiling letting in the light of xiantian, even if one never gets outside (becomes the light) so to speak.

 

 

I think there is some agreement about not-self and non-self playing a part in this. First, to let the light illuminate the truth, one has to get out of its way. On the level of fortune, this plays a massive part and is evident in the teachings of humility. With self-confidence and humility, one can get far further in life than with pride and having a "high-maintenance" ego.