Deep-Centers

[Trunk]

(later edit, note: This thread is in context of the previous A Proposed Generic Outline of the Internal Path.)

 

I've been having a pm conversation with Uroboros about (what I call) the "deep-centers", aka "zero points", "still points", "bindus". They are the still places at the deep-center of each major chakra, where they intersect sushumna. The especially potent points along sushumna that are where the key alchemy skillfully occurs to integrate personal alchemy with Luminous Emptiness, "The Big Light".

Quoted the pm conversation below.

- Trunk

Hello Trunk,

I have been thinking allot about what you have been talking about regarding deep centers. In one thread you said that a friend of yours was going through allot and seemed to be "centered", when you asked him how he did it he said he invisioned a fire in his heart.

Why did you think that was the best thing he could do?

In the various centers. 7/3, what do you consider an application of deep, over superficial?

Whenever you get a moment,
Thanks

*Super* important topic. If you get to understanding this (and it's not complicated), 90% of mysticism will suddenly make sense. The key texts are "Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa" and Cleary's "Secret of the Golden Flower" ... but it can be described in more simple plain language.

In the various centers. 7/3, what do you consider an application of deep, over superficial?

It's not *which* center; it is applicable to *all* of the major centers.

What is deep-center? It's the "still" place. For instance, in your heart center, start 'feeling' from nearer the front and move inward. In the outer areas you'll feel something ... then as you get into the deep-center, you won't feel anything; it's a still place, has a special relationship to emptiness and to luminous emptiness (I call it The Big Light). THAT is where the critical alchemy occurs, where you stabilize concentration and refine your personal energy into integration with universal. Tibetan, "enter, abide, dissolve". You might not get that on first try, or not for a long time, but that's the direction that cultivation should be headed. Also there's general peripheral work, "open the tissues and channels", etc, but cultivation culminates in profound development of the deep-centers integration with The Big Light.

>>

>>
he said he invisioned a fire in his heart.

Why did you think that was the best thing he could do?

He envisioned a candle flame. You could do it with anything where you visualize light. The Tibetans visualize mantric syllables as luminous.

1. The visualization gives you something to concentrate on. It's hard to concentrate just on a still empty space; the mind doesn't have anything to hold on to and tends to skitter around ... though it can be done and should be done... but there are various ways to do it. A candle flame is one of the simplest ways to do it.

2. Visualizing it as luminous triggers access to Light and that helps trigger the bindu ~ Big Light integration. You could also just dissolve the personal energy completely and that would lead to a spacious Emptiness experience, but The Big Light is a powerful refining agent.

Super, super important topic. Probably the most important topic to clarify in all of esoterica. Various practices that "cultivate the center" ... important to look for as a student. Sifu Matsuo said in one of his videos, (paraphrased as best I remember) "all of the methods I teach cultivate the center". I was pretty clear about this theoretically before I met Sifu Matsuo, I had some experiences, some method ... enough to recognize the importance of where he was going with some of his teachings.

Those potent points along sushumna, where the centers intersect it, those are the "still" points, the "deep-centers", the "zero points" ... really important. Those potent places are where the refinement occurs that connects you skillfully to The One Medicine.

ok, tired of typing, enough for now.

 

 

What I can say is that the place that feels the best is the LDT. I have recently begun to feel something deeper stir and mold within. Its like... a space.

Yup. I guess a key realization for me was that the deep-centers refine until they are empty, 'till they unify with a deeper bigger space. However that works for you.

In contrast to ideas I had before, about the body or other channels, that I wanted to fill them or make them flow, wanted to accumulate density in the bones, more energy etc. The deep-centers get more energy, tap into a deeper source of energy, by refining into Nothing.

(yet more)

The refinement into the deep-centers is a kind of union of opposites:
concentration and openness.

When cultivating emptiness, spaciousness, it's an easy mistake ... or, perhaps better put, can be over-done to just get the spacious aspect. It's too spacious and can disperse, be unhealthy over the long term... but the skillful healthy integration of that with the human form occurs by focusing into the small space in the deep-center until it integrates with Big Space. That transformation produces a key dynamic.

I have been experimenting with awareness of the three tantiens. So far, the lower is like a space that is solid and empty, with expansion and solidity.

The heart is...full. I have some negative manifestations surrounding my heart, physical, muscular skeletal and energetic. There is something there deep inside that is glowing like a sun, yet is not so solid.

The upper is interesting. It glows/ shines as well. Even though it and the heart both shine/glow...they do not feel the same. the light is different. Subtle color difference, both quite bright and white.

There is a point where the sensation of the center and the awareness of it merge. Where visualization and feeling blend...

Does this sound like I am going in a good direction in your opinion?

 

Does this sound like I am going in a good direction in your opinion?

Yup.

I've often wondered about the different centers relation to color of Light (as you are finding), and am not clear on that. Personally I tend to discard rote relations of colors that I've seen in various lists, and am just interested in what seems natural/resonant for my body. And I tend to prefer the simpler the better. I've often gone for white/gold for all of them and it does not seem to quite work as well for some as others.

(There is a uniform relation to spaciousness, though.)

notes for later

Sometimes when things are going particularly well, a number of centers going at the same time, the whole central channel ignites in relation to that golden white Light ... and it lights up as a whole, as the filament of a light bulb and the sphere of the whole body is ignited. Like the centers are individual spheres themselves then there is a larger sphere that is somewhat larger than the physical form altogether. It's a later step and I wouldn't worry about it happening right away ... but to let you know the direction that this goes in the longer run.

And while you start with the centers inside the physical (different traditions advise different orders, I prefer a balanced approached but find in my own work that the lower centers take more work which is probably fairly common), there's a center between the thighs, between the lower legs, a big one below the feet, several above the head.

Tibetan art depicts this stuff well.

That's the whole of the broad sketch as I know it.

There's some details about how the energies reverse, how the subtle body becomes more cohesive and expansive at the same time, how psychological baggage refines in relation to the Big Light ... you'll find all that as you go along the direction you're headed.

p.s.
And as you become familiar with this process you'll start noticing how various methods of various schools head in, foster, this direction. (Also, where problems occur when some methods or personal approaches contradict the mechanics of this process.)

 

...My focus is not on visualization so much as seeing what is there, as it is shown to me.

That way, there is less chance of forcing something with imagination.

That's been my strong historical preference. And still is my predominant orientation.
I've found that, in this case, a little bit of light visualization triggers integration with Light.
... though, of course, proceed as you see fit.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Trunk

[Uroboros]

This is a great topic to discuss!

 

It seems to be foundational and vital to the transformational process.

 

The people on this forum are capable of bringing their various systems/ methods together to gain a broader understanding of who/what we are.

[dawei]

Liezi: Tr. Linnell

凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence of creatures –

此 則 為 生 This then makes them live.

下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains;

上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars.

流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth

謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.

藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people,

謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages.

When the cord is cut, fire arises... water descends.

[Uroboros]

 

Liezi: Tr. Linnell

凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence of creatures –

此 則 為 生 This then makes them live.

下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains;

上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars.

流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth

謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.

藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people,

謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages.

When the cord is cut, fire arises... water descends.

 

Hey, Dawei!

 

I thought you would enjoy this topic.

 

Is that saying that the center in the heart is where you should focus?

 

In between Heaven, UTT and Earth LTT, is the MTT / Heart. The place where the Earth and Heaven merge/ meet.

[Uroboros]

To go along with what Dawei posted-

 

The lotus that reaches the inner part of the heart
Is the principal one, which has eight nerve-leaves.
The nerve that reaches the inside of it is like a lamp.
In shape, it resembles the plantain flower,
Leaves opened and facing downward.
The god who dwells within it
Is as small as the mustard seed.
The indestructible seed—the Hūṃ,
Trembles like the snow about to melt…

[liminal_luke]

Thanks Trunk. Ironically, sometimes the taobums can be a distraction from cultivation. Lets just say we've got our share of pointless bickering. But then every once in awhile you read something that actually swoops you up and takes you to that deep place. You don't just write about it, you ignite it. Much appreciated.

 

Liminal

[Trunk]

Is that saying that the center in the heart is where you should focus?

 

You aren't made of just one center.

It's like saying that of all the organs, all you need is the lungs. Would you do away with your other organs? Or if somehow you could cultivate the lungs, make them huge and neglect all the other organs, leave them regular sized or some injured/undeveloped, that everything would solve. It doesn't work that way. Balance. Different traditions, different schools, sometimes emphasize a certain center ... but we are integral. Create imbalance and you'll ... well, you'll be imbalanced.

 

Heaven ~ earth energies flow through *all* of the centers. *Each* center connects through the deep-center to the universal. The alchemy of *each* center must be accomplished, gradually deeper and deeper.

 

Some traditions say that you get to the universal only through the crown. It's just not true; it's just easiest to do it in the higher centers and it often happens there first. ... but it often leads to a disorder in that the universal energies are integrated through an upper center only and the lower center/s are undeveloped and you end up with an unbalanced physical wreck in the long term, a kind of spiritual paraplegic. Especially since the lower centers are typically more difficult to open (though it varies per individual). The Taoist path typically works on development of the lower centers first as a remedy to that situation ... then when the universal energies come through a person's health is not destroyed.

 

Is as small as the mustard seed.

That's a bindu, often referred to as that size. It takes a lot of refinement and time to ignite its' relationship with The Big Light.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Trunk

[Uroboros]

You aren't made of just one center.

It's like saying that of all the organs, all you need is the lungs. Would you do away with your other organs? Or if somehow you could cultivate the lungs, make them huge and neglect all the other organs, leave them regular sized or some injured/undeveloped, that everything would solve. It doesn't work that way. Balance. Different traditions, different schools, sometimes emphasize a certain center ... but we are integral. Create imbalance and you'll ... well, you'll be imbalanced.

 

Heaven ~ earth energies flow through *all* of the centers. *Each* center connects through the deep-center to the universal. The alchemy of *each* center must be accomplished, gradually deeper and deeper.

 

Some traditions say that you get to the universal only through the crown. It's just not true; it's just easiest to do it in the higher centers and it often happens there first. ... but it often leads to a disorder in that the universal energies are integrated through an upper center only and the lower center/s are undeveloped and you end up with an unbalanced physical wreck in the long term, a kind of spiritual paraplegic. Especially since the lower centers are typically more difficult to open (though it varies per individual). The Taoist path typically works on development of the lower centers first as a remedy to that situation ... then when the universal energies come through a person's health is not destroyed.

 

excellent perspectives.

 

Then, is it not that the heart is the place of focus, but that all the centers below and above must be cultivated to merge them in the heart properly?

 

In the yogas of naropa and other tibetan texts they utilize specific colors of light for each center. The navel/ lower tantien is red.

 

Why do you/ do not utilize these colors? (question for anybody)

[Trunk]

Then, is it not that the heart is the place of focus, but that all the centers below and above must be cultivated to merge them in the heart properly?

 

It's not a cut up separate sequence of steps like that. Not "first perfect this, only then work on that". You can't perfect any one part apart from the whole.

 

Think of it like lifting weights at the gym. What if you *only* worked on your legs for years, working to perfect them *first*, and never all that time worked on your arms? Or the opposite? Or did that lopsided development long term with any muscle group?

 

I would say that the lower centers have denser energy so they typically and legitimately do take more time, more work to develop. And that going too high too fast without that lower integration leads to health disaster. The Taoists are onto something. ... but that doesn't mean that you should neglect upper centers altogether.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Trunk

[Trunk]

Why do you/ do not utilize these colors? (question for anybody)

I've been busy w/ other parts to the puzzle.

You've prompted me to start taking a look at this gap in my knowledge/experience.

Thanks.

[dawei]

Hey, Dawei!

 

I thought you would enjoy this topic.

 

Is that saying that the center in the heart is where you should focus?

 

In between Heaven, UTT and Earth LTT, is the MTT / Heart. The place where the Earth and Heaven merge/ meet.

 

For research, cross reference to DDJ 60 and 5.

 

The center is probably the most overlooked part of energetics.

- After birth, the cord is cut and essence/energy rises to form the middle energy center

- In neigong, the LDT fire raises to the center

- The center is where the heart is; the heart energy heals all things

- The center is also the location of unprocessed emotions; maybe we should say ignored as we just don't deal with them

- It is the bellows for the LDT and UDT

- The heart is home to the spirit (shen)

 

I once learned a breathing technique to connect the heart, solar plex, and stomach energy... you have to pass the energy between the three and this 'communication' centers all of them. Ergo, the center then includes all three

 

When I did this under the guidance of a teacher, I was told that I was able to do this rather easily compared to most. Someone without any energy training cannot do it at all. They are not used to connecting to these areas. I think it is probably due to my Medical Qigong interests where intention and visualization are developed for such things.

 

BTW: You have to be careful of focusing or concentrating too much on the heart. It is a powerful yet vulnerable area.

 

Heart Link

[Spotless]

Gold will work better in higher vibrations than most whites.

Pearl essent white is ok.

Many whites are fairly solid and do not flow well.

Many whites are used to stop things temporarily - much of the use of whites is based on tradition or assumption.

 

Most speaking of whites have little actual sight.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spotless

[Uroboros]

Gold will work better in higher vibrations than most whites.

Pearl essent white is ok.

Many whites are fairly solid and do not flow well.

Many whites are used to stop things temporarily - much of the use of whites is based on tradition or assumption.

 

Most speaking of whites have little actual sight.

 

For the lower centers, such as LTT, which color do you consider to be the best at transforming/ cultivating that center?

 

In the tantric texts I have read, they utilize red for the navel center AND the throat. Any ideas as to why?

 

Thanks

[Spotless]

Maintain attention in the LDT as the energy begins to work its way in the MDT and you will not be overcome with emotions.

[Spotless]

For the lower centers, such as LTT, which color do you consider to be the best at transforming/ cultivating that center?

 

In the tantric texts I have read, they utilize red for the navel center AND the throat. Any ideas as to why?

 

Thanks

 

In the LDT RED is most frequently used under the teachers direction.

I hesitate to say why because it is not a "good" vibration to use in so many areas and on many occasions.

However in the LDT it is relatively safe to use and sets up a clearing cleaning energy throughout the body.

(using this color vibration and forcefully bringing it up your spine on the other hand may create very negative effects and many long term health problems.

 

This same vibration works well in the throat chakra for clearing a number of patterns that are relatively easily cleared and less easily altered unless the student actually is really working on changing the patterns / habits.

It is also a color that if applied properly in this area at the correct times can clear out beings - and other "items" from the channels connecting to and around the ears.

 

 

 

[Spotless]

The throat chakra is quite different from many of the other chakras in that it is quite resilient and relatively well exercised by many.

It resembles the second chakra in some ways on this.

 

The second chakra has a vast array of abilities - very few are known.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spotless

[Spotless]

I do not specifically recommend any particular vibration for any particular chakra.

 

If you have stored sufficient energy / qi and your teacher is having you do certain exercises - it may be deemed time to flame up your LDT to a fairly full furnace.

Your body will begin sweating but if you are doing long exercises requiring your arms to be up or even above your head for 20-30 minutes or more - this is relatively easy with the fire going - nearly impossible without.

 

Edit: I am not talking about static exercise like horse stance but exercises involving continuous movement of the arms all above chest height.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spotless

[Spotless]

If you do not actually have a teacher telling you what vibrational colors to go to and you cannot see what you are doing then use postulate vibrations - always the way to go for safe quality practice.

 

Postulate vibration:

Eg- bring my heart chakra to the best vibration for me at this time in working through the emotions that are most effecting my fear of pain in my present circumstances (that is quite specific)

 

Eg-2 bring my spine and adrenals and all other areas within my space that are not calm to a calming vibration, one that will allow me to sleep (or function) peacefully and without anxiousness.

 

Eg-3 may my crown chakra vibration rise to the highest vibration that I can handle while still being comfortably in my body and in my space.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Spotless

[joeblast]

I do not specifically recommend any particular vibration for any particular chakra.

 

If you have stored sufficient energy / qi and your teacher is having you do certain exercises - it may be deemed time to flame up your LDT to a fairly full furnace.

Your body will begin sweating but if you are doing long exercises requiring your arms to be up or even above your head for 20-30 minutes or more - this is relatively easy with the fire going - nearly impossible without.

 

Edit: I am not talking about static exercise like horse stance but exercises involving continuous movement of the arms all above chest height.

yes, observe qualitative aspects of the attendant energetics...look for the signal amidst the noise...

 

hey man, is that freedom rock?

yeaahh!

well turnnn it up, man!

[joeblast]

I tried not to have any expectation or ascribe any sort of feeling before letting the signal to noise ratio game play itself out before assigning any concepts to the phenomena. Follow the fundamentals along a rigorous line of inquiry and put in the practice, let the extras pop out of the woodwork as they may...and they only really do with diligent and proper practice

[C T]

In the yogas of naropa and other tibetan texts they utilize specific colors of light for each center. The navel/ lower tantien is red.

 

Why do you/ do not utilize these colors? (question for anybody)

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Buddhism/colors.html

[dawei]

I once learned a breathing technique to connect the heart, solar plex, and stomach energy... you have to pass the energy between the three and this 'communication' centers all of them. Ergo, the center then includes all three

 

I was asked to share this technique.

 

I can share the two steps which I liked and continued to practice for some time. As a caveat, it is intended to start with someone who knows how to see and feel your energy flowing during the technique so you have a baseline of knowing if your sensing and feeling are correct too. Also, the key is to focus the energy to the center you are working with and at first it may be hard to know if your breath is scattering to the other centers or not.

 

1. Connecting to each Center: Focus on each center

Goal: Bring focus, energy and movement to the center in question

 

a. Lay down and clear and calm yourself however you wish.

b. Cross your hands over your chest. (I use left hand closest to the chest). Relax your arms as completely as possible.

c. Bring your breath and focus to the chest; Let your palms connect downward to the same place. Breath several times.

d. As you slowly breath, let your chest raise and fall. There should not be any breath going to the solar plexus nor LDT.

e. Do about 10 times once you recognize the chest rise and fall.

 

f. Repeat at LDT. Keep breath and focus to the LDT. Do not let any breath stay in the chest nor solar plexus.

 

g. Repeat for the solar plexus. Employ same focus and concentration of mind, breath, and energy.

 

Note: The Solar Plexus is usually the most challenging to see (or feel) if any movement is actually occurring. If you do this with another person, then the other person can at least comment on whether there is movement in that center, and also, if two centers (or three) are moving. They key is to only focus on one center and movement occurs only in that center.

 

 

2. Connecting the Centers: Flow between each center

Goal: Bring focus, energy and movement continuous from one center to another

 

a. After step #1 above, relax with hands at your side and breath through the LDT for 30-60 seconds.

b. Place one palm over the center of the chest and another over the center of the LDT.

c. Focus and breath a few times in ONLY the chest as outlined in #1.

d. When ready to connect, on the next exhale pass the energy to the LDT.

e. Do one focused breath on the LDT as outlined in #1.

f. On the exhale, pass the energy to the chest.

g. Do one focused breath on the chest.

h. On each exhale, keep passing the energy to the other center. Do for a few minutes.

i. Change to doing the Chest and Solar Plexus. Do same as above.

j. Change to doing the Solar Plexus and LDT. Do same as above.

k. After step #2 above, relax with hands at your side and breath through all the LDT for 30-60 seconds.

Notes: The order that you do which pair does not matter. Starting with the Chest and LDT is only because these two are easier for most to pass/connect at first.

The challenge is getting the breath to completely focus to only one center at a time and not let it scatter to other centers. Also, to be able to smoothly pass the energy and keep to the tempo of a 'single breath and pass' in a slow calm manner.

[Uroboros]

 

I was asked to share this technique.

 

I can share the two steps which I liked and continued to practice for some time. As a caveat, it is intended to start with someone who knows how to see and feel your energy flowing during the technique so you have a baseline of knowing if your sensing and feeling are correct too. Also, the key is to focus the energy to the center you are working with and at first it may be hard to know if your breath is scattering to the other centers or not.

 

1. Connecting to each Center: Focus on each center

Goal: Bring focus, energy and movement to the center in question

 

a. Lay down and clear and calm yourself however you wish.

b. Cross your hands over your chest. (I use left hand closest to the chest). Relax your arms as completely as possible.

c. Bring your breath and focus to the chest; Let your palms connect downward to the same place. Breath several times.

d. As you slowly breath, let your chest raise and fall. There should not be any breath going to the solar plexus nor LDT.

e. Do about 10 times once you recognize the chest rise and fall.

 

f. Repeat at LDT. Keep breath and focus to the LDT. Do not let any breath stay in the chest nor solar plexus.

 

g. Repeat for the solar plexus. Employ same focus and concentration of mind, breath, and energy.

 

Note: The Solar Plexus is usually the most challenging to see (or feel) if any movement is actually occurring. If you do this with another person, then the other person can at least comment on whether there is movement in that center, and also, if two centers (or three) are moving. They key is to only focus on one center and movement occurs only in that center.

 

 

2. Connecting the Centers: Flow between each center

Goal: Bring focus, energy and movement continuous from one center to another

 

a. After step #1 above, relax with hands at your side and breath through the LDT for 30-60 seconds.

b. Place one palm over the center of the chest and another over the center of the LDT.

c. Focus and breath a few times in ONLY the chest as outlined in #1.

d. When ready to connect, on the next exhale pass the energy to the LDT.

e. Do one focused breath on the LDT as outlined in #1.

f. On the exhale, pass the energy to the chest.

g. Do one focused breath on the chest.

h. On each exhale, keep passing the energy to the other center. Do for a few minutes.

i. Change to doing the Chest and Solar Plexus. Do same as above.

j. Change to doing the Solar Plexus and LDT. Do same as above.

k. After step #2 above, relax with hands at your side and breath through all the LDT for 30-60 seconds.

Notes: The order that you do which pair does not matter. Starting with the Chest and LDT is only because these two are easier for most to pass/connect at first.

The challenge is getting the breath to completely focus to only one center at a time and not let it scatter to other centers. Also, to be able to smoothly pass the energy and keep to the tempo of a 'single breath and pass' in a slow calm manner.

 

Thank you for sharing this method, Dawei!

 

Working with the breath is definitely a beneficial thing to practice.

[Spotless]

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Buddhism/colors.html

 

Some questionable sourcing in this article but very interesting to see how different wording can faintly say something that is basically the same but almost unrecognizable.

 

On a side note: whites are often clearish vibrant crystalline and bright (not what most would think of as white).

 

 

[Uroboros]

In the book Healing with Form, Energy and Light by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, in the section on Tantra he talks about the Tigle.

 

The various aspects of Tantra Center work are the Horse, Rider, Path and Armor.

 

The Horse is the Lung/ Prana. The Rider is the Tigle, a sphere of light that is seen/ visualized. The Path is made of the various Channels. The Armor is the Sacred Syllable used.

 

The Tigle also represents the mind or consciousness. He says- the Horse is blind, the Rider lame.

 

In this book and Tibetan Healing Sounds ( which I recommend) there are various color associations with the chakras/ centers.

 

Either it is going to be luminosity or its going to be a specific color.

 

White/ Third Eye, Red/ Throat, Blue/ Heart, Red/ Navel are the specific colors that the books advise.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Uroboros