Deep-Centers

[Trunk]

I'd like to nudge this thread back to the topic of it's original post, title, and tags.

[Trunk]

I don't want to put a kabosh on conversations that I might consider adjacent or tangential (maybe even directly relevant but just not my focus right now). I appreciate what's been contributed and I don't want to stop anything; I just want to add a bit more focus...

And I know that there's a step-wise process:
1. resonate a center from dormancy to energetically active
2. gather and blend whichever various opposite energies (heaven & earth, du & ren, ida & pingala, the five elements, etc) into the center (chakra)
3. concentrate and refine into the deep-center of that center

It's that last step that was my intended topic of this thread.



From the overview page of my site:

It is individual integration with forces larger than the individual,
in a way that both transcends and supports the individual,
that imbues internal cultivation with effectiveness, stability, and grace.
...
The quiet deep-centers (and related central vessel, sushumna) of the personal have a special connection with the Universal.

A few questions, food for thought (for now or in the future, written or not):

What is the process that goes on in the deep-centers that results in universal integration?

In practices where energy is brought into the deep-center ... what mistake/s might be done so that resolution into the universal does not occur? (Or at least such that energy just stays simply personal, doesn't integrate with universal.)

What is the consequence of working with personal centers without deep-center integration with universal?

What is the consequence of accessing universal energies without center and deep-center development?

Site methods that you already know of that contain deep-center focus / development in them?

Quote from either of those two books that I've already mentioned ("Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa", Thomas Cleary's translation of "Secret of the Golden Flower") w/ page #s where they talk about the process of the deep-center. (Or from any other classic text.) (I'd caution that the Tibetan books are *really* ornate. I've had to zennify them in my own process.)

In classic Taoist literature, cite at least one other name for the deep-center. (If you don't have any classic Taoist texts already, I'd suggest any translations by Eva Wong or Thomas Cleary.)

How do the energetics of one's subtle body shift once deep-center integration with the universal occurs?

How does personal ~ universal integration in the deep-center relate to the resolution of acquired conditioning?

 

 

Thanks again for all contributions to the thread, all welcome. As I mentioned earlier, it's prompted me to look into areas where I'm lacking.

 

best,

Trunk

Edited August 21, 2014 by Trunk

[dawei]

Ok, so I went back to read the OP

 

Deep-center (new word to me) as used here implies to me the moment of neither/both; maybe I should just say Unity but it is momentary in movement exercises.

 

A close friend in both Taiji and Qigong once said if he could do it all over, he would of followed Qigong as the methods and results are faster and more direct... but he followed the path of Taiji and slow movements.

 

When I consider his remarks, I actually find myself drawn back to Taiji slow exercise movements... why?

 

Because the core of all the exercises I learned are about the deep-center (as I understand the usage here).

 

Their focus is on opening meridians and enhancing Qi flow ( energetic point of view).

 

My personnel challenge with them has always been to tame the Qigong methods which come more naturally to me; to use them only to a point of enhancement instead of domination.

[Trunk]

Ok, so I went back to read the OP

Thanks, lol.

 

Deep-center (new word to me) as used here implies to me the moment of neither/both; maybe I should just say Unity but it is momentary in movement exercises.

Nope.

 

1. I'm using "center" as a generic word for "chakra" (and, depending on how you see it, sometimes as generic for "dan tien").

 

2. I'm using "deep-center" as the still place in the very center of the chakra (any of the major chakras), where it intersects sushumna. As contrasted with the more peripheral regions of a center that have more sensation, more action in relation to externals.

 

It's not a moment, it's a location (or rather a series of especially potent locations along sushumna) in esoteric anatomy.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Trunk

[Wu Ming Jen]

Chakra chakra chakra the sound of a wheel going down the road. The center is empty. If energies had a physical location then when people die they would have a shape. I have opened my third eye except wheels do not open or close.

 

It is a process of living starting at the bottom and going up. If we can not reproduce waking up, going to work and paying bills how can the heart be happy or ready for love? When we have issues just start from the beginning each chakra is dependent on the one before it.

[hagar]

Wonderful thread, and kudos to Trunk for bringing up.

 

We´ve talked some about this before, and I have a question;

 

There is really no opening to the deep centers without resolving actual and/or energetic blockages in the spine and particularly the Ming Men and the spinal point behind the heart. I would also say, to my experience, a completely open Du and Ren channel is paramount to getting this process going. But this is not a Tibetan approach.

 

After this, integration of the deeper centers starts to occur. What is your experience of this?

 

Also, I find this only being accessible to me between 11 pm and 1 am. Any comments on this?

 

h

[allinone]

there is needed to find that "empty conscentration". This will come apparent when you reach brow area and unite left and right side of you.

Before that you need to follow the bright essence or life. This is beyond fabrication or skhandas or consciousness.

 

if you ask who you are or just think about you what it might be you can learn to sense the energy of it. Where this energy comes and returns you will find its in the middle of the head somewhere, your job is to enter it. Its done by uniting left and right sides or channels. If you succeed you are then one step above brow and also realize how to go through this center and next center and then open the crown.

 

To be able to unite left and right channel there is right cultivation needed, there is some energetical events or signs too.

this is the same energy what gives life to everything, cultivate it.

 

Its all about you or self energies. Taking full responibility of your own actions is a small win already.

 

You can unite left and right channel in couple months of effort if you lucky. Its not about how long you can sit, its about how fast you can find the source.

 

And crown is impossible to open without knowing explicitly how to do it, you can do it without knowing that you are opening the crown and knowing how to do it but not other way around. Technically nobody can give you that wisdom.

 

And when you open crown you will also start from the beginning again and new difficulties ahead.

[allinone]

sun and moon

[hagar]

there is needed to find that "empty conscentration". This will come apparent when you reach brow area and unite left and right side of you.

Before that you need to follow the bright essence or life. This is beyond fabrication or skhandas or consciousness.

 

if you ask who you are or just think about you what it might be you can learn to sense the energy of it. Where this energy comes and returns you will find its in the middle of the head somewhere, your job is to enter it. Its done by uniting left and right sides or channels. If you succeed you are then one step above brow and also realize how to go through this center and next center and then open the crown.

 

To be able to unite left and right channel there is right cultivation needed, there is some energetical events or signs too.

this is the same energy what gives life to everything, cultivate it.

 

Its all about you or self energies. Taking full responibility of your own actions is a small win already.

 

You can unite left and right channel in couple months of effort if you lucky. Its not about how long you can sit, its about how fast you can find the source.

 

And crown is impossible to open without knowing explicitly how to do it, you can do it without knowing that you are opening the crown and knowing how to do it but not other way around. Technically nobody can give you that wisdom.

 

And when you open crown you will also start from the beginning again and new difficulties ahead.

 

Specs appreciated. "Reach" meaning, work with intent to activate the Niwan, or some other cavity? Left and side, meaning what channels?

 

h

[allinone]

"reach" as meant you are ready to unite left and right. Niwan(if its the center the brain) is already activated. That means to even start the process you need to activate niwan first. I am thinking that dealing with finding the center will open it anyway.

You can conscentrate on the space between the eyes(blackness) and it will become solid or active at some point(your concentration will become onepointed and the quality of the space or blackness changes), that would be the sign of active center of your brain.

 

"Sides" doesn't need to be named, when you close your eyes then whats on right is your right side. When you are ready to unite then you are able to "move" right side, whats now missing is left side, when you try to balance right with the left then the uniting or reaction happens.

 

it can be done that you don't have any clue what is what, if you are ready then you are automatically at the correct place, you might even not be able to notice it.

 

sides can also described as wires or extra hands, but at the beginning we have one. Its represents the active force(right side) you will need to match it with passive left side.

 

***

 

To bring in another term is awareness, if you don't know what to do then try all variants what you can do with the mind within your awarenss. And if there is little reaction then follow it, if thats done take next thing you can do.

I did basically this way and i used reason what could work. Basically there is lots of ideas and things but they will be proved wrong as the path goes on. If i could have known about left and right sides and center i would have been faster and less suffering(i think now, but maybe not).

 

and its like walking blindfolded, you don't know whats next, you need to learn to sense it by trial and error. Basically there is not much to know from the outside sources of information.

Edited August 22, 2014 by allinone

[hagar]

I´ll have to digest that.

 

Will go into test tube and get data.

 

h

[joeblast]

think of the eyeroll in mco as described in taoist yoga

[hagar]

think of the eyeroll in mco as described in taoist yoga

I do that for the retention periodization.

 

h

[Trunk]

There is really no opening to the deep centers without resolving actual and/or energetic blockages in the spine and particularly the Ming Men and the spinal point behind the heart. I would also say, to my experience, a completely open Du and Ren channel is paramount to getting this process going. But this is not a Tibetan approach.

 

After this, integration of the deeper centers starts to occur. What is your experience of this?

Mixed.

 

While I'd say that "opening the tissues and channels" is definitely part of the process (as well as other things). With the deep-center ~ Big Light integration we're talking about a late-stage culmination that I think is worth clarifying early so as to provide orientation as to "where things are headed" in general and "what to look for" in methods/schools/etc, sort of like taking a compass heading for a long hike. I'm somewhat disillusioned about what the microcosmic orbit is marketed as in popular schools. imo&e, 1. Opening all of the channels is important and 2. the mco doesn't provide balanced resolution, the central channel does. Though certainly du and ren are important, just often marketed in an unrealistic way, imo&e, often coupled with dubious methods. That said.

 

What I've found in my own process (also similarly from various online Tao pals) is that after a while du & ren not only loop-de-loop, but also interact directly across. For instance, the navel and/or Ren-6 QiHai with Du-4 MingMen. I find that if there's just a little empty brightness in the middle, between those jump-across interactions, that that middle brightness refines the outter energies as they go back and forth (in various ways, I wouldn't try to force it just a certain single way). To restate: So that by having some deep-center brightness, and including adjacent points of du & ren, the points / energies of du & ren get activated / refined. ime, It's a more efficient way of working w/ du & ren. I'm certainly not saying it's the *only* way, just saying that's been my experience. Similar technique can be used with adjacent left & right (thrusting channels or ida & pingala, however you want to name them or experience them).

 

Now, that approach is not full "universal energy integration" but at least effectively utilizes and cultivates the centers, deep-centers, sushumna integrates 'em with other aspects of the body.

 

Also, I find this only being accessible to me between 11 pm and 1 am. Any comments on this?

 

That's not been my experience; it's been more widely available. However (just guessing) it could be that that time is particularly still and so stillness is more accessible internally.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Trunk

[liminal_luke]

 

 

What I've found in my own process (also similarly from various online Tao pals) is that after a while du & ren not only loop-de-loop, but also interact directly across.

yinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangvyinyangyinyangvyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyangyinyang

 

.......................................................................................center............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Edited August 22, 2014 by liminal_luke

[allinone]

Trunk:

The especially potent points along sushumna that are where the key alchemy skillfully occurs to integrate personal alchemy with Luminous Emptiness, "The Big Light".

 

 

With the deep-center ~ Big Light integration we're talking about a late-stage culmination that I think is worth clarifying early so as to provide orientation as to "where things are headed" in general and "what to look for" in methods/schools/etc, sort of like taking a compass heading for a long hike.

 

The Big light is called star.

 

Jesus talked about the star from the east. So did Buddha.

 

Buddha see a star is misundertood like he saw real star in physical sky and then discovered middle way. Middle ways meaning is also way off from what many thinks.

Buddha saw a star rising from the east. Its also called morning star. And in christianity its called luciferian something.

 

When you integrate the left and right sides. Then you awaken to the Way. You will get special samadhi wheres you can sense the "Big light". Before you reach there(to see star) there is two bindus or you call still-points. There is attachment and attachment is left side, its passive, when this attachment removed then you will start working with the second attachment when you cultivate this samadhi you will see again attachment.

When two attachments removed then you can meet the morning star the main source of this attachment and imho its also the central point in the middle of the head.

After you have merged or dissolved or whatever with the star or Big light then you can switch the middle of the head at will, you have defeated the Mara what would cause you to born involuntarely, you can escape the underworld.

 

In christianity its talked about three kings, in Greek and Norse mythology there is Three main gods. In kundalini stuff there is three bindus above brow chakra from where one is the crown. Khrisna is playing the flute.

 

The myths and stories are filled with cultivation tips.

 

left hand path, right hand path. Left hand path is external method where you are serving your attachments, while right hand path tries to kill the attachments by external means.

 

Amazing thing from the sutras is found that the Way is written in capital letter because its secret. Secret means that its not possible to know the Way unless you actually have entered it or realized it by yourself. Its opening the middle of the head, its locationless location, i think its the correct meaning of the Middle Way.

Edited August 23, 2014 by allinone

[idiot_stimpy]

Any information on the heart centre? I am having a lot of energy movement there at the moment.

[Trunk]

A part of method that came to mind...

In visualizing mantric syllables (I use the mani mantra, syllables applied from the top down) in the deep-centers, as I got better at it (initially I spent a lot of time painting them to become familiar enough to visualize them), helpful things to do w/ 'em. Make 'em luminous (obviously). Then spinning 'em. And alternating spinning them really small into the deep-center and really large (like up to the size of a grape fruit or even a basket ball). That spinning small ~ large alternating really helps to blend the energies smoother, makes the small concentration go smoother.

Sifu Matsuo has that sort of alternating smaller ~ bigger very specifically in how to work with the qi sphere between the hands in his kwan yin magnetic qigong. There are specific tips to get it to work effectively. And, as I've mentioned before, working with energy like that between the hands - when you do it in front of the torso - it resonates the adjacent part of the torso - in the case of working w/ a qi sphere: the adjacent chakra inside the body to do the same thing. So you get this work with the hands, channels of the arms, and deep-centering chakra work in the torso all from a single simple method. It does a lot of the right stuff all at once. And is accessible to relative beginners (you don't have to be a super-duper advanced meditater already). I feel more stable and centered after kymq, feel no remedial need to do stillness practice afterwards. The deep-centering is already built into the practice.

 

In fact, I gotta say, my observed results of various of Sifu Matsuo's methods (energetic and physical) ... how they've affected my stillness meditation: concentrated and bright.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Trunk

[allinone]

do you have investigated where's the visual comes and returns?

[liminal_luke]

And alternating spinning them really small into the deep-center and really large (like up to the size of a grape fruit or even a basket ball). That spinning small ~ large alternating really helps to blend the energies smoother, makes the small concentration go smoother.

 

 

This reminds me of Michael Winn's counterforce breathing, another method that involves alternating between small and large spheres.

 

As the abdomen expands on an inhale the practitioner imagines the sphere in the lower dan tien condensing super duper small. As the abdomen contracts on the exhale the chi sphere expands outward. Perhaps just to basketball size; perhaps infinitely huge. The polarity between the size of the sphere and the phase of the breath sets up a deeply centering dynamic.

 

Liminal

[Trunk]

do you have investigated where's the visual comes and returns?

I don't understand your question, not sure what you're asking...

The visualization *is* just a tool, and part of the culmination of the practice is to dissolve the visualization into nothing. Is that near what you're asking about?

[allinone]

I don't understand your question, not sure what you're asking...

The visualization *is* just a tool, and part of the culmination of the practice is to dissolve the visualization into nothing. Is that near what you're asking about?

 

You are using this method to reach Big light? or center of the brain?

[Trunk]

You are using this method to reach Big light? or center of the brain?

Both.

Per what I've been saying from the opening post and repeatedly throughout this thread:

My point of view is that the universal (ex, The Big Light) has a special relationship with *any* of the major chakras, upper and lower. So, that can be reached at the center of the brain as well as the deep-centers of other chakras as well.

 

~ edit ~

p.s.

And that a balanced approach to development amongst the chakras avoids ... the unfortunate consequences of an unbalanced approach, especially in the long term.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Trunk

[allinone]

Both.

Per what I've been saying from the opening post and repeatedly throughout this thread:

My point of view is that the universal (ex, The Big Light) has a special relationship with *any* of the major chakras, upper and lower. So, that can be reached at the center of the brain as well as the deep-centers of other chakras as well.

 

~ edit ~

p.s.

And that a balanced approach to development amongst the chakras avoids ... the unfortunate consequences of an unbalanced approach, especially in the long term.

 

The consciousness what you are using for visualizing will return to its source everytime after you stop visualizing.

You are using mind-consciousness one of the 6 other consciousnesses.

If you want realize center of the brain then you need cultivate center of the brain, that means you need realize oneness of these six consciousnesses and then you will use this oneness consciousness to realize the Star.

 

There is needed to overcome gross body(physical body) subtle body(emotions) and body without form(thoughts) and then can realize center of the brain.

 

with lower abdomen chakras you start dealing after you have completed first round of opening crown. First round many things are automatic and simple.

 

i don't have much knowledge about chakras, the idea is i need to be able to know these things from my own experience. Opening the crown doesn't give psychic powers nor all knowledge about everything at once its very gradual path.

Edited August 24, 2014 by allinone

[Spotless]

A balance approach to the development of the chakras is advised and one should start from the lower chakras up.

 

However it is erroneous to look at this from the idea that "I am going to do this and then this".

 

You must try to not be under the illusion that you know what you are doing or that you know where you are "at" in all of this.

 

In quieting the mind you should get an idea of what you need to work on. And work on oneself is far better done in a group.

Specific work on the upper chakras is generally nonsense because it is not what you "do" to the chakra that does anything with the exception of detour or obstruction.

 

The chakras open in accordance with the fuels you are creating within your space. And you are not actively creating them, they are by products of your work and effort which are most fruitful in learning not to indulge your proclivities, learning neutrality and overcoming "life everywhere but in the present". These things comprise your delusion of your existence and separate you by way of your self consciousness and vanity.

 

Meditation, postures, breathing - these are tools to move finer and ever finer energies throughout your space. This energy knows exactly where to go - it immediately works on energy compressions.

 

With a teacher or naturally in group work, you will / should see where you need to work on yourself, your indulgences such as anger, overpowering sexual urges, self righteous judgement, sentimentalism, victim ism, self worship, and many other things. Each time you begin to lessen these indulgences you are dissipating less of your energy and it is increasingly transforming and creating finer vibrations.

 

The energies will rise up from below - not the other way around and certain types of energy will not bypass lower areas until that area is able to allow that to transmit through. (Obviously one can force this in every way possible and the results can be "very interesting").

 

Most seekers are not actually very serious in their pursuit of setting themselves aside - they want to do do do do do do do do do and then finally be able to do - they did it in the past and in their mind because of what they did in the past they are doing it now and will be doing more in the future. They are now indulged in the doing of seeking - it becomes an engineering project - at best base upon "proven" ancient teaching 3/4s of which are incorrect, premature or someone else's engineering project.

 

If you are extremely fortunate and you are able to come to the stage in which you truely begin to understand you know nothing, and you manage to find a teacher - he/she or the teaching will constantly send you to that which will recalibrate you to the present.

 

When you are ready - at some point you will pop into the now and remain there - enlightening.

 

With regard to deep center work - it will come to you, you do not need to go to it. The engineers will disagree but if you are sincerely working on yourself, you will come to unbending attractions toward work on some portion of your false self because it is unbearable to do otherwise. And you will attract the answers because the whole of the universe is with you.

 

In this last year I needed to work on some deep heart work - but I did not really know it at the time. But I was in a workshop with a realized teacher and he had us do some deep heart work (it was a simple one day workshop). Not long after that I kept becoming veklumpt when doing some advanced work. My teacher directed me to concentrate my awareness more on my LDT at that time though I had not told him about getting chocked up during the advanced work.

 

Somehow - I really "heard him" on this and in keeping my awareness on my LDT, I am no longer indulged in the lower emotions of the higher heart center but am able to reside in the higher ones. This then had a huge effect not many weeks later when my crown chakra opened up and merged with my already opened third eye area. I now walk around with a top and inner head of lightness.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Spotless