Help us help Buddhist Discussion

[GrandmasterP]

I liked him in Lord of the Rings.

[BaguaKicksAss]

The Buddhist subforum does not need help. Essentially its a good discussion platform. Most of the time the discussions are dignified, of value and substance, and its virtually free of trollish behaviour.

 

I don't see a problem. Naysayers are welcome, in the spirit of debate and disagreements. Even in family units misunderstandings will arise, and members will argue and disagree, but i don't see that as something so drastic that it will lead to a destruction of that unit. Maybe the odd time it will, but generally, no. Members can ignore one another, some even for a long time, but somehow, family is family. Sangha is sangha.

 

The one and only issue is that non-Buddhists who basically have no sense of sangha-ship show up to act as if they belong, as if they are in the know more than practicing Buddhists, leading their points with taunts and also with ignoble motives. Its clearly seen in the tainted behaviours of a couple of so-called dzogchen dabblers who seem to enjoy clashing with others. Devoid of even basic manners and respecting that there are some core concepts relating to Dzogchen practices that cannot be openly discussed, which is something that authentic practitioners have been bonded to uphold in the best way they can.

 

So, imo, i dont see any reason to alter this sub-forum in any shape or form. If anyone sees otherwise, then maybe the problem's with them, and they should express their gripes so that whoever is responsible for this subforum can then bring the relevant issues up as and when they occur and present it to Buddhists here and say, "Look chaps, we have been receiving some complaints with regards to this, this and this, what sort of feedback can we get to try and reach a resolution?" If this is not observed, one should not simply form the premature opinion that there is a mess here in this section of TTB. Cos if you do, it just goes to show an attitude of carelessness, like as if someone has their briefs or panties in a knot trying to sweep some insignificant dirt under the carpet.

 

That's the most recent issue....

 

However I have seen all staff run and cringe when asked to moderate the Buddhist section, with mentions of it being troublesome for years... so I wonder now if what you mention is an ongoing problem, or there are some other issues?

[Simple_Jack]

This is definitely part of the issue that we want to address.

 

and ...""Look chaps, we have been receiving some complaints with regards to this, this and this, what sort of feedback can we get to try and reach a resolution?"" ... this is really what is happening now.

 

Personally as I said above I would like the discussion to be more in the spirit of dharma as I outlines above somewhere.

 

This has already been discussed in this thread:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34157-what-can-be-done-to-stop-buddhist-discussion-turning-to-flame/

 

Posting Buddhism is bad, mmmkay.

[silent thunder]

I love Dildo Baggins! The oft forgotten and maligned cousin of Bilbo, who made a decent living dancing in Inns of ill repute. When confronted as to why he would take such a job, he replied... 'hey, I'm just working my way through gardening school'

[C T]

and ...""Look chaps, we have been receiving some complaints with regards to this, this and this, what sort of feedback can we get to try and reach a resolution?"" ... this is really what is happening now.

Before the matter can even be partially resolved, don't you think that maybe its a good idea to outline/identify what seems to be the major hiccups first? Do you see that being done in the OP? I dont see it. So the approach is what i am questioning. What is the basis for this inquisition? List out, in order of significance, what the patrolling officers are unhappy about, and then we can have some clarity and direction. Otherwise, like i said, there's no problem. There will always be clashes, but comparatively, its really nothing serious, and the way admin and others (like the OP) insinuates that its very serious validates my request for a list of grievances to be made public so that we will know for certain if this sub-forum is really that troublesome, and if so, then what kind of responsibility should each of us take in order to rectify the presumed issues.

[Apech]

Before the matter can even be partially resolved, don't you think that maybe its a good idea to outline/identify what seems to be the major hiccups first? Do you see that being done in the OP? I dont see it. So the approach is what i am questioning. What is the basis for this inquisition? List out, in order of significance, what the patrolling officers are unhappy about, and then we can have some clarity and direction. Otherwise, like i said, there's no problem. There will always be clashes, but comparatively, its really nothing serious, and the way admin and others (like the OP) insinuates that its very serious validates my request for a list of grievances to be made public so that we will know for certain if this sub-forum is really that troublesome, and if so, then what kind of responsibility should each of us take in order to rectify the presumed issues.

 

Patrolling officers? For goodness sake.

[C T]

Also, posters taking the opportunity to do some looting on the side is not helping at all. There are some among us who have great respect for our teachers, and its hurtful to see what they collectively represent being associated with sex toys and the like.

 

Buddhists here may not be the models that some of you expect (hopefully due to your unsurpassed levels of dignity) but at least you don't see them going to other sections to piss all over the discussions there with disrespectful/snide remarks.

 

It is hope that such tendencies can be put aside. Its been on-going for a while now.

 

A little respect can go a long way to promote mutual understanding and acceptance.

[C T]

Patrolling officers? For goodness sake.

Sorry, 'stewards' was the word i was looking for. I was prevented from recalling that as i was typing.

[C T]

That's the most recent issue....

 

However I have seen all staff run and cringe when asked to moderate the Buddhist section, with mentions of it being troublesome for years... so I wonder now if what you mention is an ongoing problem, or there are some other issues?

Troublesome? Not sure how it can be deemed as such. Maybe the stewards are just not up to the task? Idk.

[Flolfolil]

Before the matter can even be partially resolved, don't you think that maybe its a good idea to outline/identify what seems to be the major hiccups first? Do you see that being done in the OP? I dont see it.

Oh don't worry, i have a very specific list of grievances! i'd just prefer to keep them to myself and inquire about the grievances of others, because how the site is formed (accidentally typed "forumed" ) is through the input of users AND staff.

 

If i just post what i think is wrong and sticky it, it effectively becomes a thread about me and whether my opinions are right or wrong

 

Staff tries to (sneakily?) get the opinions of others typically, before making theirs known

 

 

Do you understand the reasoning behind my simplistic approach now?

[子泰]

I'm thinking we could use a sutra discussion in the buddhist forum

[C T]

Oh don't worry, i have a very specific list of grievances! i'd just prefer to keep them to myself and inquire about the grievances of others, because how the site is formed (accidentally typed "forumed" ) is through the input of users AND staff.

 

If i just post what i think is wrong and sticky it, it effectively becomes a thread about me and whether my opinions are right or wrong

 

Staff tries to (sneakily?) get the opinions of others typically, before making theirs known

 

 

Do you understand the reasoning behind my simplistic approach now?

No i don't, and i feel your approach, which you seem delighted about, is totally redundant (wrt this matter at hand). What do you think this is... A PTA meeting?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm thinking we could use a sutra discussion in the buddhist forum

 

That would be awesome! I had lots of fun with such a discussion in my PPF before.

[Brian]

So how come the Buddhism section gets so much worse than the other sections? Anyone have any ideas?? Why does it become worse off than Taoism? Taoism must have just as much to argue about, hell we never did figure out exactly what qi is, or where the dantien was .

A David Allen Coe song starts with him describing the bar he's in, where bikers laugh at cowboys who are staring at the hippies who are praying they'll get out of there at alive...

[Tibetan_Ice]

So how come the Buddhism section gets so much worse than the other sections? Anyone have any ideas?? Why does it become worse off than Taoism? Taoism must have just as much to argue about, hell we never did figure out exactly what qi is, or where the dantien was .

Hi BKA,

Are you sure about that? Have you ever looked up or counted the number of pitted posts from the General discussion and compared? Or even looked at the subjects of pitted posts? I'll bet there are more mo pai pitted posts than any others.

 

 

Oh, and the reason why moderating the Buddhist forum is so hard is because you have to know something about Buddhism. For example, calling something eternalistic or nihilistic is considered an insult in Buddah-talk. But if you don't know what those words mean, you can't tell that someone has just been insulted. Probably the worst insult is to be called a neo-advaitan.. LOL!

 

Also, there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen but many people forgot that.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[ralis]

 

Also, there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen but many people forgot that.

 

I agree. Norbu always taught from a nonsectarian perspective.

[idiot_stimpy]

Buddhist, non Buddhist whatever. We are all human beings. But even that is not correct.

 

Self identification with labels of the mind is all it is.

[Apech]

I agree. Norbu always taught from a nonsectarian perspective.

 

Have you watched the video called Introduction to Dzogchen that someone posted by Norbu. He starts by talking about the 4 Noble Truths ... Buddhist Dzogchen is Buddhist.

[Anoesjka]

Oh, and the reason why moderating the Buddhist forum is so hard is because you have to know something about Buddhism. For example, calling something eternalistic or nihilistic is considered an insult in Buddah-talk. But if you don't know what those words mean, you can't tell that someone has just been insulted. Probably the worst insult is to be called a neo-advaitan.. LOL!

 

 

Being insulted so easily should be a reason and an invitation to inspect your selves thoroughly. You can argue all you want, but all it's going to do is keep you away from your goal, which would be attaining enlightenment (I assume).

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hi BKA,

Are you sure about that? Have you ever looked up or counted the number of pitted posts from the General discussion and compared? Or even looked at the subjects of pitted posts? I'll bet there are more mo pai pitted posts than any others.

 

 

Oh, and the reason why moderating the Buddhist forum is so hard is because you have to know something about Buddhism. For example, calling something eternalistic or nihilistic is considered an insult in Buddah-talk. But if you don't know what those words mean, you can't tell that someone has just been insulted. Probably the worst insult is to be called a neo-advaitan.. LOL!

 

Also, there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen but many people forgot that.

 

So it's sort of like walking into the hermetic and occult section and calling everyone a bunch of newagers?

 

Can you explain your last sentence please? What is Dzogchen? How does it differ from Buddhism? Why is it not Buddhism? Btw, from what I recall it was the Buddhists who were cringing at the thought of moderating the Buddhist section lol.

Edited August 18, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[GrandmasterP]

Hi BKA,

Are you sure about that? Have you ever looked up or counted the number of pitted posts from the General discussion and compared? Or even looked at the subjects of pitted posts? I'll bet there are more mo pai pitted posts than any others.

Oh, and the reason why moderating the Buddhist forum is so hard is because you have to know something about Buddhism. For example, calling something eternalistic or nihilistic is considered an insult in Buddah-talk. But if you don't know what those words mean, you can't tell that someone has just been insulted. Probably the worst insult is to be called a neo-advaitan.. LOL!

Also, there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen but many people forgot that.

 

If the think that eternalistic and nihilistic are insults then some of our Buddhist chums must have pretty thin skins.

[Creation]

I think a big issue is people playing "Dharma Police": feeling like they have the obligation as Buddhists to correct others, that it is a service to the Dharma to go tell everyone else how wrong they are. Something very curious that happens is when these people have some realization under their belt, so they are not doing this from place of emotional reactivity, but a kind of mental rigidity.

 

Also, a tricky thing is that in discussions of Vajrayana and Dzogchen, those on the path are sworn to secrecy, so they cannot discuss the details of their own practice or experience. It seems to me that in a situation where the parties in the discussion can't share openly and freely with each other they are more likely to engage in closed minded reiteration of the party line, intellectual nit picking, etc., simply by default.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Creation

[ralis]

I think a big issue is people playing "Dharma Police": feeling like the have the obligation as Buddhists to correct others, that it is a service to the Dharma to go tell everyone else how wrong they are. Something very curious that happens is when these people have some realization under their belt, so they are not doing this from place of emotional reactivity, but a kind of mental rigidity.

 

From my dealings with Buddhists over the last 30 years or so, emotional and a rigid mental mindset apply. There seems to be an incessant need to be absolutely right which is no different than fundamentalist preachers. Perhaps their reactions are from being raised in a religious environment and Buddhism is an outlet for projection.

 

 

Also, a tricky thing is that in discussions of Vajrayana and Dzogchen, those on the path are sworn to secrecy, so they cannot discuss the details of their own practice or experience. It seems to me that in a situation where the parties in the discussion can't share openly and freely with each other it is easier to slip into closed minded and us-vs. them types of discourse. Almost like you don't see other options, so you engage in intellectual nit-picking and dharma-policing by default.

 

I never agreed with the 'must be kept secret club' which is some dude told another dude and so forth through the ages to keep it secret. Socialized primates love this kind of closed group dynamics.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

So it's sort of like walking into the hermetic and occult section and calling everyone a bunch of newagers?

 

Can you explain your last sentence please? What is Dzogchen? How does it differ from Buddhism? Why is it not Buddhism? Btw, from what I recall it was the Buddhists who were cringing at the thought of moderating the Buddhist section lol.

Dzogchen was around long before Buddhism appeared. Bon Dzogchen, another line is purportedly over 17000 years old.

In Dzogchen, first you get direct introduction (transmission) then you gain confidence in he view and then you maintain it. There is no need of all the Buddhist trappings and practices.

 

http://dudjom.blogspot.ca/2008/03/on-three-statements-of-garab-dorje.html

 

Here is a link discussing this issue.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3053

 

There is no thogal in Buddhism.

 

Alan Wallace also maintains that there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen as he has stated in one of his podcasts. #16

 

https://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[C T]

Anyone that post any points even slightly resembling criticism of the seeming misconduct of Buddhists, Ralis will be first in line to shout "AYE"... thats how unrigid and unemotional he thinks he is being. Plus, he likes to assume that such a display of agreement is 'sensible' as opposed to reactionary tendencies which he clearly identifies in those who practice Buddhism, which obviously he is not subject to because he is beyond the emotionalisms that Buddhists are commonly a victim of. Amazing attitude to say the least.

 

Yet, when 2 or more Buddhists come together in agreement on a particular point relating to Buddhist praxis, which does not even happen that often, guess what sort of words would spew forth from his lips should he spot it. And, he does somehow spot it each time it happens, as if by magic. Now, that's gooood policing, i'd say. Lately, each time i want to 'like' a post made by one of the Buddhist members here, i'd reflexively look over my shoulder, just in case....

 

In his complete adaptability, he is able to demonstrate a mindset so flexible that for the last number of years, since the time he started having civilised exchanges with Vaj, the contents and premise of his posts haven't altered one bit. Still the same old stuff, for eg, his skygazing experience, lamas in robes, authoritarianism, etc., being regurgitated over and over, like a stuck record.

 

Very insightful contributions indeed, Ralis. Keep it up.

 

I'm guessing you abhor mirrors?

Edited August 18, 2014 by C T