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[Apech]

...snip...

 

Alan Wallace also maintains that there is no Buddhism in Dzogchen as he has stated in one of his podcasts. #16

 

https://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

 

In podcast 17 he says he has no realisation or accomplishment himself ... so he is not exactly an authority on this.

 

However there is a difference between saying that if you attain the great perfection then all the practices and trappings of Buddhism are no longer relevant; to saying that Dzogchen (excluding Bon) is not a Buddhist path. It is just as Mahamudra is also. Taught and practiced by the great Buddhist masters.

[Simple_Jack]

Dzogchen is buddhadharma, as well as Bon, the reason being the result of their paths is buddhahood.

[Simple_Jack]

Also, if a person does not go for refuge, cultivates bodhicitta, and dedicates one's merit, that person is not practicing Dzogchen.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...

Clearly there is a personal issue involved here. You are projecting negative character traits on anyone who practices Buddhism, doing the very things you are railing against.

 

If you can't learn to accept that many people actually find Buddhism useful and aren't fundies, there is a simple way to remove a lot of silly conflict - don't visit this subforum.

 

It's that simple. If you find practice that is probably similar to your own anyway so very abhorrent, don't go into the room where people are talking about it.

[ralis]

Clearly there is a personal issue involved here. You are projecting negative character traits on anyone who practices Buddhism, doing the very things you are railing against.

 

If you can't learn to accept that many people actually find Buddhism useful and aren't fundies, there is a simple way to remove a lot of silly conflict - don't visit this subforum.

 

It's that simple. If you find practice that is probably similar to your own anyway so very abhorrent, don't go into the room where people are talking about it.

 

I will remove the hyperbole and state 'in general' some are. I have every right to state my case.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Dzogchen is buddhadharma, as well as Bon, the reason being the result of their paths is buddhahood.

Dzogchen leads to rainbow body. Buddhism in General does not because there is no thogal.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Also, if a person does not go for refuge, cultivates bodhicitta, and dedicates one's merit, that person is not practicing Dzogchen.

Dzogchen teaches that the primordial state is not affected by merit, prostrations, good or bad etc.

are you not implying by your comment that Dzogchen follows the two truths?

[Simple_Jack]

The body of light (not the physical signs at death) is just the wisdoms, kayas, omniscience of a samyaksambuddha; read "The Practice of Dzogchen". There's a difference between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa. If someone were to dispense with refuge, bodhicitta, and dedication of merit: they are no longer practicing Dzogchen.

[Simple_Jack]

The above applies to Bon Dzogchen in verbatim.

[silent thunder]

...

Edited September 27, 2021 by silent thunder

[Simple_Jack]

It is truthful, it's only necessary to point this out because TI doesn't have a guru, and it is not unkind; the above posts do not qualify as "wrong speech".

[silent thunder]

...

Edited September 27, 2021 by silent thunder

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

In podcast 17 he says he has no realisation or accomplishment himself ... so he is not exactly an authority on this.

 

 

I'm surprised you throw out this red herring...

 

From The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo by Longchen Rabjam

 

 

Most of the Tibetan writers express their humility in their writings, such as describing themselves as ignorant and illiterate although they are great scholars, wild and deluded although they are realized persons, and as the most insignificant and inferior members of the community although they are the most respected ones. It is a way of training themselves to avoid creating pride and arrogance in their scholarship and to be humble, humane, and equal with all and also to teach others humility.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

The body of light (not the physical signs at death) is just the wisdoms, kayas, omniscience of a samyaksambuddha; read "The Practice of Dzogchen". There's a difference between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa. If someone were to dispense with refuge, bodhicitta, and dedication of merit: they are no longer practicing Dzogchen.

I have that book. What you are talking about is the path of accumulation, which according to Longchen, is automatically achieved through thogal..

 

 

THE ATTAINMENTS OF THE FOUR VISIONS, PATHS AND STAGES OF THODGAL Longchen Rabjam) writes:NKC 109b/2 By progressing in the experiences of that (meditation), one at- tains the four (levels of) visions (sNang-Ba). (1) First, in the vision of) direct (realization of) the ultimate nature (Chos-Nyid mNgon-Sum), One achieves the experiences of realization equivalent to (that of) the path of accumulations.

 

 

[Simple_Jack]

Full list of criteria concerned with speech: http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/if-you-propose-to-speak-always-ask-yourself-is-it-true-is-it-necessary-is-it-kind/

[Stosh]

I see lots of 'wrong speech'

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

You see!!! Even a thread about how to improve the buddhist section turns into the same old stale debate. Maybe there is no hope.

[Creation]

You see!!! Even a thread about how to improve the buddhist section turns into the same old stale debate. Maybe there is no hope.

This.

For all the Buddhists here, I want to say what I posted was not to berate anyone, but was said out of a genuine concern about the state of discussions of something I hold very dear and sacred.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Creation

[Simple_Jack]

This.

For all the Buddhists here, I want to say what I posted was not to berate anyone, but was said out of a genuine concern about the state of discussions of something I hold very dear and sacred.

 

Sometimes people just need to be corrected when they're wrong on the internet.

 

Edited August 19, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Sometimes people just need to be corrected when they're wrong on the internet...

I think discussion here would be more productive if some people learnt to state their case with developed points made in a neutral tone, and, if the debate becomes an argument, to swallow their pride and say 'we'll agree to disagree'.

 

So far as I'm aware, nobody here is in a position to take it upon themselves to teach people. Share ideas and debate, yes, but not correct others as though they are our students.

[C T]

I think discussion here would be more productive if some people learnt to state their case with developed points made in a neutral tone, and, if the debate becomes an argument, to swallow their pride and say 'we'll agree to disagree'.

 

So far as I'm aware, nobody here is in a position to take it upon themselves to teach people. Share ideas and debate, yes, but not correct others as though they are our students.

Its mostly neutral until the taunters show up.

 

& then the hyenas would gather around, grinning stupidly at everything in sight.

[idiot_stimpy]

I think people need to take things less seriously.

 

After all, we are just looking at text on a screen sitting somewhere. No need to take things personally, no need to make things personal, no need to be self identified with our positions. Attachment to our positions we take on things leads to suffering.

[C T]

I think people need to take things less seriously.

 

After all, we are just looking at text on a screen sitting somewhere. No need to take things personally, no need to make things personal, no need to be self identified with our positions. Attachment to our positions we take on things leads to suffering.

Well said!

 

There are accurate positions nonetheless, many of which are clearly pointed out by our Dharma brothers here, but never in a thousand years can we/should we claim them to be ours. Identifications lead to karmic propensities due to grasping that is intrinsically found within identification. 'Ours' is the ground where dualistic notions feed. Positions such as 'ours' and 'not ours' are simply carriers, eventually to be let go of, infinitely. Then everywhere is home, we can relax properly here, in comfort and ease. Isn't that one of the primary unique quality of the teachings under the 3rd turning of the wheel?

 

Its easy to lose sight of essence. We go looking, endlessly, life after life, for the elephant in the forest neglecting to look in our own sitting room first, according to one Tibetan master.

[Marblehead]

You see!!! Even a thread about how to improve the buddhist section turns into the same old stale debate. Maybe there is no hope.

But sometimes we agree. Sometimes even Buddhists agree with each other.

 

I feel it is necessary for everyone to be right once in a while.

 

Sure, there are more ways to be wrong than there are to be right but maybe now and again what we thought was the wrong way is really the right way.

 

To define "right" is to close the door to possibilities. If we close the door we have already defined what is right in our own mind so why in the world would one want to discuss all the wrong ways?

 

It is my understanding that the Buddha never wrote a single word of his own thoughts. Therefore everyone could be wrong about what he really thought.

[MooNiNite]

Dzogchen leads to rainbow body. Buddhism in General does not because there is no thogal.

 

everything leads to rainbow body