There is a case when objectivity must be ignored even if it's real.

[goldisheavy]

This will be a brief argument aimed at my materialist friends who are very committed to the idea that objective domain is truly real and is very important for yogic practice, while at the same time thinking of developing psychic powers. There are a number of people like that here on this forum and this argument is for them.

 

Objective domain is a domain neutral to all observers and distinct from all the observers such that the objective domain exists regardless of the presence or absence of any number of observers, and it exists eternally. As such, the rules and constraints of an objective domain are not under a personal control of any being. Furthermore, if an objective domain had no constraints at all, it would be indistinguishable from a perfectly subjective domain, so for objective domain to remain objective it simply must have a constraining influence that is beyond the capability of beings to control.

 

What is under your direct control is your subjective domain. You can change your subjective domain as quickly as your courage will allow, and it has no inherent limitation to change. Whatever limitations to change exist in the subjective domain, they must all be self-imposed temporary limitations.

 

So if a change in the rules and constraints of the objective domain was required before you could produce psychic powers, you'd be left to simply wait and hope, since you'd not have direct control over the objective domain. This means developing any kind of psychic power in one lifetime would simply be out of question.

 

So this leaves only one option. There is only one place where you have real leverage. And that's the subjective domain. Even here change can be hard, but at least in the subjective domain the only obstacle is yourself, which while difficult is surmountable. Whereas objective domain by definition presents an insurmountable obstacle as far as its constraints go.

 

Ergo, even if objective domain exists and even if it's real, as long as you want to develop some kind of special power in this single lifetime, you have no choice but to act as if objective domain is irrelevant, because the only real leverage you have is your subjective domain.

 

A radical change to objective constraints cannot happen in an objective domain due to your personal influence.

 

Put another way, if as a result of your personal effort you achieved a radical removal of some experiential constraint, then that constraint has never been a part of an objective domain, and it must have only and ever been a part of the subjective domain. Therefore, whether objective domain exists or not, even if you believed in an objective domain and took it seriously, for the sake of yoga you'd still have to focus on your subjective domain, because that's where your personal leverage would be.

[Marblehead]

But I promised myself that I would not post in any of the "Buddhist Discussions" threads.

 

 

Edit to add:

 

I went back and actually read your post instead of just scanning it. I actually agree with you. However, it is my understanding that the method of attaining the results you speak of only create illusions and delusions and remove one further from physical reality. (I make no judgement upon doing this though.)

Edited August 17, 2014 by Marblehead

[asunthatneversets]

Goldisheavy isn't talking about Buddhism or anything even related to Buddhism so I'm not sure if this passes as a "Buddhist Dicussion", Marblehead.

 

Buddhism does not champion solipsistic, essentialist, psychic power hungry principles.

[ralis]

Goldisheavy isn't talking about Buddhism or anything even related to Buddhism so I'm not sure if this passes as a "Buddhist Dicussion", Marblehead.

 

Buddhism does not champion solipsistic, essentialist, psychic power hungry principles.

 

This is the problem that is being discussed on the other thread in that you fail to expand on your narrative

[asunthatneversets]

 

This is the problem that is being discussed on the other thread in that you fail to expand on your narrative

It is not a problem but rather an intentional solution.

[thelerner]

I don't know. Seems to me the argument builds a house of cards based on this: "So if a change in the rules and constraints of the objective domain was required before you could produce psychic powers, you'd be left to simply wait and hope, since you'd not have direct control over the objective domain."

 

If this 'If' statement is wrong, or there are indeed instances of the psychic phenomena in objective reality then the argument's base is wrong and everything that follows is. Personally I always prefer looking for real world proofs then to get to involved in philosophical linguistics because too often you get pages of conclusions, but they rest on (shaky) 'If.. then propositions'.

 

You definitely don't want a to create a linguistic paradigm that keeps you from seeing an aspect of reality. It cuts both ways. You don't your beliefs based on fantasy with no proof, neither do you want to dismiss evidence as impossible, because it doesn't fit in to your current paradigm. Evidence and proofs trump philosophical If Then statements.

 

My basic question is: are there solid examples of psychic phenomena? What are they? How firm are there proofs? If so, then the If statement here has to be revised to include larger realities.

 

 

On a personal note, I find there are times a false idea, moves creativity and progress along and is valuable in itself.

[goldisheavy]

Some people on this forum are interested in both Buddhism and psychic powers. Moreover, they think that Buddhism offers a vehicle to psychic power development and in fact it does. So then it comes down to a personal choice. As a person, what do I want to do? I can ignore. I can run interference the same way asunthatneversets does. Or I can try to assist. I choose the last option.

[asunthatneversets]

Yes, assist people in grasping at mundane siddhis, a wonderful thing indeed.

[goldisheavy]

Yes, assist people in grasping at mundane siddhis, a wonderful thing indeed.

 

Feel free to explain why you think it's not wonderful. Aren't you tired of just making naked assertions inside one-liners?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Some people on this forum are interested in both Buddhism and psychic powers. Moreover, they think that Buddhism offers a vehicle to psychic power development and in fact it does. So then it comes down to a personal choice. As a person, what do I want to do? I can ignore. I can run interference the same way asunthatneversets does. Or I can try to assist. I choose the last option.

Thank you very much for this link. I appreciate it. Hadn't read that one before.

 

Here is another link to super powers from the Buddha:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html

[goldisheavy]

Thank you very much for this link. I appreciate it. Hadn't read that one before.

 

Here is another link to super powers from the Buddha:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html

 

Ah, that's a wonderful Sutta, thank you!

 

The beginning of this Sutta matches very closely with this guided meditation (mp3).

 

It's also available here under a second bullet point: http://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_guidedMed_index.html

 

I highly recommend listening and going along with it at least once, to get an idea of what is possible in breathing meditation.