Nature = Good

[Satya]

A lot of folks would starve if they had to grow their own food.

It is jolly hard work.

Hard work's not so popular these days as once it was.

Yeah, I wasn't implying that EVERYONE grow ALL their own food .

 

There wouldn't be the available time to become experts, society would break down. Not to mention that many people just aren't able.

 

But, when you look at the problems of the west = "not enough exercise, too much pollution, wasting food." it seems a no brainer to get rid of gyms that use up energy/resources themselves, and instead have people exercise in utilitarian/purposeful ways. Farming, cycling rather than driving, building, etc, etc. Maybe in the not too distant future some kind of "Farm Gym" or similar things will come into being .

 

Tech is great for a lot of things. There's a lot of stuff that'd either be impossible or incredibly difficult without it, but what baffles me is when you get masses of perfectly able bodied people using powered devices that would work easily as well manually, not exercising, even in little ways. Things like electric can openers, driving when people could be cycling, escalators, etc. These people then use powered equipment in brightly lit gyms with techno pumping because unless they get some exercise they feel miserable (exercise = best anti-depressant). (this duh-doy is not at anyone, but a general, duh-doy at the world).

[Satya]

horribly ironic It's inconcievable and yet so it is as such. all for the profits of a small sub-percent of the human population, at the expense of the vast majority. no jsutification, no right, just is. we allow it to be.

 

how do we disallow it? how?

One major step that requires no revolution is strict ethical consumerism, one of the last remnants of democracy that we have left. Support the good and boycott the bad. Research every purchase. This is a good guide:

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org

 

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/buyersguides.aspx

 

If everyone did this then a lot of issues would disappear. It's irritating because really our regulatory bodies should be preventing the horribleness around the world, but they don't, because (no conspiracy reading/believing required) we've got our money pipeline attached to our 'democracy' pipeline.

http://www.essential-trading.co.uk

 

http://sumawholesale.com

 

That's food. Put savings into transparent ethical organisations, like Triodos, and current accounts with places like co-op bank or nationwide. Then there are plenty of green(er) energy providers. That's all of the day to day essentials covered .

 

And, sure, sometimes we're stuck picking between a douche and a turd sandwich (south park terminology), but we can still do our best to do the research and find out that the douche, though getting their materials from third world countries, has labour/wage laws/policy in place, in line with the laws of that country and/or international labour laws. You can always find a company that is actively MORE ethical than another and then support that company/product. You can ALWAYS try and do your best.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Satya

[Protector]

Right now

This world

With all of its technologies, iphones, wi-fi, factories, robots, machines

Is more beautiful then it has ever been in history

And it will only get better

 

Instead of taking technology from these who have it

We should find way of giving it to these who can't afford it

I feel deeply sorry for anyone who still has to work with their hands

Even more, for these who force themselves to

 

It's extremely hard to live in poverty

Adding just one bicycle into a family will change everything

It's transport for a person, a product, and it saves energy

Even for these living bellow the poverty line

 

Fat people not exercising is not a worldwide problem or even an epidemic, especially not in US

Pollution should be solved with better technology, not the lack of it

 

Technology is not a small convenience for rich people to play with

It represents everything that is good about humanity

Radio and the Internet brought us together

Factories feed us and give us power

And yes, I want farms to be factories

 

I don't want to go to the old ways for selfish reasons like exercise

Being skinny isn't pinnacle of health, nor is it being muscularly

Everyone wants to exercise or not for their own reasons

 

Technology doesn't make me feel bad about the state of the world

And even if it did, I would never turn back on it

Imagine what would happen if we went back on the nuclear power after WWII

We wouldn't have nuclear plants and the world would be torn by the war for fossil fuels

America is the only one fussing about it now

Nuclear plants are all over Europe but the US wants to keep its weapons and yada yada waste

 

We need more advances in technology and make it more accessible to normal people

Help them understand how it works, help them use it, help them have a better life

 

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!

[GrandmasterP]

Yeah, I wasn't implying that EVERYONE grow ALL their own food .

There wouldn't be the available time to become experts, society would break down. Not to mention that many people just aren't able.

But, when you look at the problems of the west = "not enough exercise, too much pollution, wasting food." it seems a no brainer to get rid of gyms that use up energy/resources themselves, and instead have people exercise in utilitarian/purposeful ways. Farming, cycling rather than driving, building, etc, etc. Maybe in the not too distant future some kind of "Farm Gym" or similar things will come into being .

Tech is great for a lot of things. There's a lot of stuff that'd either be impossible or incredibly difficult without it, but what baffles me is when you get masses of perfectly able bodied people using powered devices that would work easily as well manually, not exercising, even in little ways. Things like electric can openers, driving when people could be cycling, escalators, etc. These people then use powered equipment in brightly lit gyms with techno pumping because unless they get some exercise they feel miserable (exercise = best anti-depressant). (this duh-doy is not at anyone, but a general, duh-doy at the world).

 

+1

Driving in a car to a gym then paying to go on a walking machine.

There's surreal.

[Protector]

[Satya]

Right now

This world

With all of its technologies, iphones, wi-fi, factories, robots, machines

Is more beautiful then it has ever been in history

And it will only get better

 

Instead of taking technology from these who have it

We should find way of giving it to these who can't afford it

I feel deeply sorry for anyone who still has to work with their hands

Even more, for these who force themselves to

 

It's extremely hard to live in poverty

Adding just one bicycle into a family will change everything

It's transport for a person, a product, and it saves energy

Even for these living bellow the poverty line

 

Fat people not exercising is not a worldwide problem or even an epidemic, especially not in US

Pollution should be solved with better technology, not the lack of it

 

Technology is not a small convenience for rich people to play with

It represents everything that is good about humanity

Radio and the Internet brought us together

Factories feed us and give us power

And yes, I want farms to be factories

 

I don't want to go to the old ways for selfish reasons like exercise

Being skinny isn't pinnacle of health, nor is it being muscularly

Everyone wants to exercise or not for their own reasons

 

Technology doesn't make me feel bad about the state of the world

And even if it did, I would never turn back on it

Imagine what would happen if we went back on the nuclear power after WWII

We wouldn't have nuclear plants and the world would be torn by the war for fossil fuels

America is the only one fussing about it now

Nuclear plants are all over Europe but the US wants to keep its weapons and yada yada waste

 

We need more advances in technology and make it more accessible to normal people

Help them understand how it works, help them use it, help them have a better life

 

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!

 

 

Absolutisms are generally limiting. IMO, this is a bit over-generalised. Tech is GREAT, but nature is GREAT too. The key is to know when to go with what approach.

 

 

Instead of taking technology from these who have it

We should find way of giving it to these who can't afford it

I feel deeply sorry for anyone who still has to work with their hands

Even more, for these who force themselves to

I think your pity is incredibly misplaced here. Working with your hands does not = misery or happiness; the same applies to working at a computer. Pretty much ALL of my professional, academic and even recreational activities in life involve sitting at a computer. I love what it can do, no doubt, but I experience issues from it too. In the past, when I was younger, any labour/more active jobs that I'd done felt much more beneficial to my mind/body/soul. I felt happier when coming home after doing jobs with lifting.

 

There are plenty of happy people in the world without any tech. Studies of brainwaves of monks have shown them to be some of the happiest people ever measured. It's meditation, which has nothing to do with technology, that's brought this happiness.

 

 

Fat people not exercising is not a worldwide problem or even an epidemic, especially not in US

I didn't mention fat people exclusively. You can be plenty unhealthy and thin. The fact is that there are a plethora of physical and mental health problems in the developed world, most all of which could be relieved, prevented, or even cured with exercise. So, whilst I agree with:

Pollution should be solved with better technology, not the lack of it

, whilst we're still waiting for them to crack fusion/make it viable, and/or for a LOT more renewables to be laid down, until we have non-toxic (or at least MUCH less toxic) sources of power, if we can kill two birds with one stone, for example by having people rely LESS on powered tools/items/transport and doing things manually wherever they can, wherever makes sense, wherever doesn't cost time (as in my points above; cycling, farming, no powered tools where possible), so they can get tasks done without pollution AND get exercise at the same time, then is it not obvious that we should?

 

Yeah, if we had a planet that was covered in solar panels, had tidal, wind and hydro generators everywhere, if we were powered by 100% renewables, then, yeah, sure, why not go on our electric trams to jog on a treadmill; in this future world it wouldn't matter. But we're not there yet.

 

 

 

Right now

This world

With all of its technologies, iphones, wi-fi, factories, robots, machines

Is more beautiful then it has ever been in history

And it will only get better

I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that.

 

I'm not an absolutist either way. A lot of my friends edge toward denouncing tech in favour of nature but I appreciate both. However, generally I think that nature untouched by man is far more beautiful than most any human made thing. There is of course some beautiful human made art and music. Music is one of those things that's human made and doesn't really exist in nature, but that doesn't necessitate tech.

 

Acknowledged, when it comes to cities, of course, health tech, sewage tech, etc, all make a much nicer place, but still, compare this to living in a yurt in the open air, I think this would have been much more beautiful.

 

Also, technology isn't all good. There's things like the side effect of tech, the big flippin massive patch of ocean filled with toxic plastics:

 

The Fukushima disaster: http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/nuclear/safety/accidents/Fukushima-nuclear-disaster/

 

And many, many, many more.

 

All examples of the ugly side of tech, and the unconscious habits of humans.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Satya

[Protector]

Nuclear fusion is awesome, only politics limit it. General public doesn't know all of its benefits and only think about Chernobyl and waste.

 

The only monks that had brainwaves done on them were Buddhist, no point scanning everyone else and Buddhists monks are pro at living on basically nothing, so they're the only exception. Don't even ask about Eastern Orthodox ones, they meditate too but they're crazy.

 

Working with your hands is hella annoying. Hard to tell how much it sucks when so many people are sheltered by technology(now that's true irony)

Living in poverty sucks, my grandma had to grow half her food until she died. The other one was living in a city but the city was basically just some old buildings that were left over from communism. Alternating between having an actual job and sitting behind a computer doesn't compare.

 

No, your points about farming cycling and power don't make a lick of sense. Unless the world is under some hippy totalitarian state, no one will collectively switch onto green power just because it makes sense and start doing everything manually to save power. It always makes more sense to use the easier route to get somewhere, wasting power is just the way. It won't improve lives but make them even more tedious.

Everyone is waiting for the new greener energy and because everyone thinks it's so close, everyone goes a little bit crazy more. But the most annoying thing is that we're already there. We can switch everything away from fossil fuels to alternatives like geothermal power, the wave power, wind, and other stuff. I saw a cool presentation about how the difference in temperature and pressure between ocean surface and floor can be used, too.

We ARE there, but no matter what happens, everyone has this attitude like the next technological advancement is like a fairy tale that might come true one day or might not, so everyone has to compromise until then.

Everyone is playing so safe, not to hurt anybody that nothing is being done. I say Ngabe go, the dam stays.

Don't get me started on the companies that suppress new innovations so they won't go out of business. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, EVERY SINGLE CAR COMPANY AND YOUR LACK OF HYDROGEN POWERED CARS!!!

[Satya]

We ARE there,

 

Yeah, if we had a planet that was covered in solar panels, had tidal, wind and hydro generators everywhere, if we were powered by 100% renewables, then, yeah, sure, why not go on our electric trams to jog on a treadmill; in this future world it wouldn't matter. But we're not there yet.

No, we're obviously not. We do not have a planet that's covered in solar panels, tidal, wind and hydro generators. We're not powered by 100% renewables. The technology is available, but power structures, corruption, autocracy, greed, etc, and many other reasons mean that it's not yet widely available. We're from 'there'.

No, your points about farming cycling and power don't make a lick of sense. Unless the world is under some hippy totalitarian state, no one will collectively switch onto green power just because it makes sense and start doing everything manually to save power. It always makes more sense to use the easier route to get somewhere, wasting power is just the way. It won't improve lives but make them even more tedious.

As I've clearly pointed out, we're NOT 'there'.

 

I thought it was pretty obvious, but maybe it's not, so I'll show you how the points about farming and cycling make not jus a lick but many tongue-fulls of sense .

 

You said:

"It always makes more sense to use the easier route to get somewhere"

And of course I agree.

 

What sounds easier/better/sane.

 

Driving to and from work, 20minutes total. Then driving to and from a gym, 30minutes total. Spending one hour in the gym to improve mental and physical health, 1 hour total. All the while polluting the atmosphere through driving and using a gym that requires power that pollutes the atmosphere. 1 hour and 50 minutes total.

 

OR, cycling to and from work, 1 hour total, and then coming home and doing whatever else it is you want to do. In this scenario you still get 1 hour of exercise and all of its benefits, you haven't polluted the environment and you've saved 50minutes of your time.

 

Which is easier/better/sane?

 

I think, obviously, unequivocally, option number 2.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Satya

[Protector]

Google doesn't help me with the word absolutist since I'm not a monarch... yet...

 

Realistically, number one is better. Cycling in option two is only cardio, who would in option one just cycle for a full hour. Plus gym membership comes with a trainer who can help with what you're supposed to be doing. The only other things that is cheaper then a car is a buss, and it's more accessible for more people then a bicycle. Cars are also a lot less scarier then bikes and buses.

 

Cars save time and make money, and that's why they're more important. Money is the reason we have the world like this, instead of the "logical" one. Instead of that world, we have a better one, where everyone pollutes enough to later have a luxury to complain about it. Points to comfort.

 

Man, I'm evil.

[GrandmasterP]

Factoring out the danger and the weather, cycling is just about the most energy efficient way of getting from A to B.

It even beats walking in terms of distance attained for energy expended.

Plus cycling keeps you fit ( and it can be fun).

Edited August 30, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

A lot of folks would starve if they had to grow their own food.

It is jolly hard work.

Hard work's not so popular these days as once it was.

 

Good riddance then. the bred and manipulated moocher-consumer mentality deserves to die off.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

man, i've lost all respect for protector just here on this page. if i thought you were being ironic, sattirical, or sarcastic, i'd laugh at you, but you sound point blank dead serious.

What good is it to destroy our planet in pursuit of maintaining a power/manipulation structure that continues t osuppress the poor in order to inflate the rich?! You can't see how unnatural this world's systems are?? You dont care about how far from the path of Dao it strays!

Why do something harmful, simply because it is profitable, when there are harmless alternatives? Simply because you lose your profit margins is no excuse. if that's your concern, making money, then your invalidation of the well-being of others invalidates your own well-being and you ought to be handed your own medicine, billionfold.

I don't care if you want to become a cyborg, just dont go taking away my natural habitat (of which i have only been lucky to barely experience at this wretched point in history) in pursuit of your artificiality.


Under a great and just leader, the people tend to themselves.
Under a corrupt and unhealthy rule, there is much artificiality.

[Protector]

I am point blank dead serious

I started this thread because I'm writing a story about a futuristic world that is threatened by religious terrorists who hate technology and I need some arguments for the bad guy's side. I don't want the bad guys to be whiny but I can't understand their side very well. I thought I'd understand some stuff better but everything still sounds like whining to me.

I have a long history with religious types and making them look bad will be easy, the hippies will be the final frontier for me

[Satya]

I started this thread because I'm writing a story about a futuristic world that is threatened by religious terrorists who hate technology

 

If you haven't seen it, then the film existenz has a similar theme. It might help for ideas.

 

I personally don't agree with and don't understand your seemingly completely anti-nature absolutism.

 

Were you bullied by a tree as a kid? (haha).

 

I have provided many evidenced, logically reasoned, and in many cases axiomatic reasons why natural/organic approaches are at least sometimes preferable, but you seem to be ignoring all reasons/statements that suggests that nature is a good thing, and you seem to be completely dead set on your idea that technology is always better and nature is always worse.

 

The world is not black and white, it's very multicoloured. Absolutisms don't serve people, they limit people, and worse, they usually end up harming people (those holding absolutist beliefs and those around them). Your story is arguing against these absolutist anti-tech people. Is it not obvious how your absolutism is potentially as bad as theirs? IMO balance is key.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Satya

[woodcarver]

whoever invented nature was really smart

[Protector]

Were you bullied by a tree as a kid? (haha).

 

I fell off a few... VENGEAAAAAANCE!!!!

 

Your post on page 3 is the best thing so far, but with all the running around, nature is something that should be controlled. In my eyes, it's not a cute fuzzy bear but a big uncute fuzzy bear that likes to eat faces. The balance is imaginary and unnecessarily. The world is a playing field and the nature is a recourse that can be manipulated.

[Songtsan]

So, I'm hanging out around the internets and looking up tech stuffs and I start seeing this

 

The dude starts talking about this awesome nanobot tech stuff and I started getting exited about the stuff he's talking about, but then I noticed that he's actually angry and even though everything he says sounds awesome, he's using that tone

There's more of these types of video and that's kinda weird to me

It seems that da peeps are scared of technology when they don't understand it, like most stuff

The world is turning into a place where people who understand science are better off then these who don't

There seems to be a struggle to make the world into a place ruled by god instead of technology

A world for people who refuse to get an education

so annoying gaaaaaaaah

don't even want to type about it

 

Couldn't agree more - I want to be a cyborg! Hook my brain up to a robot Tiger Body!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Songtsan

[Protector]

existenz

 

That was the goofiest thing ever, not even The Doctor could help it

 

Western technology relationship suuuuuuuuuuucks, especially in movies(even that one, gross goopy consoles, bleh)

In The Matrix the machines will enslave humanity and farm them

In Terminator the machines will decide one day that all humans must die

 

 

Meanwhile in Japan, they have Astroboy, Megaman, Kamen Rider, what else? Original Power Rangers

Robot heroes that live with humans and save the day, while Americans struggle to trust them

Plus there's the problem of the uncanny valley

 

[Satya]

 

 

Satya, on 31 Aug 2014 - 01:58, said:

existenz

That was the goofiest thing ever, not even The Doctor could help it

 

Ha, yeah, it is a bit goofy. But, to me it provides a really (well done) unstable feel, that (again) to me led to an effective questioning of my own reality/decent self inquiry. + I like the line where he's moaning about (paraphrase): "There don't seem to be any rules in this game, what's the point? I don't know what I'm doing?" And she kind of implies that that's the point of the game, to not know and to try and find meaning (or just to not know). I thought that bared a good parallel to life itself, and a lot of Non-Dual literature.

Plus there's the problem of the uncanny valley

I thought that the uncanny valley was a globally human/cross cultural thing, not limited to westerners? One of my best buddies is doing a PhD around it.

 

For anyone who doesn't know what it is and wants a very concise explanation of the phenomenon:

Edited August 31, 2014 by Satya

[Protector]

Everyone is creeped out by the... creeps

But that really doesn't help the westerners and they keep making creepy robots

I think the best way around at early robots is only having one part look perfect

Many artists long ago figured out that the mouth is the most important part at making heroes look friendly

Like Robocop, Batman, Captain America

They would have looked way creepier without a mouth

Huge eyes on Spider-man help, too

The mouth thing was also used for the opposite effect

 

 

Still cool, though

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

demanding that we control nature is kind of like saying your own parents are not even people, but just resources that you, their child, has some inalienable right to farm, manipulate, and control.

How disgraceful. Disrespectful.

The world, universe, is not a resource. nature is made up of people, not soulless things. No Cow is a lesser person than any human being, and the human(s) who deem(s) it their right to enslave *ANY* form of life is inhumane. comparable to a 'technology hating religious terrorist extremist' are the 'nature hating scientific terrorist extremists' who think industrial farming is a "good idea".

If you cant put yourself in the cow's position, let me do it for you. do unto others as you would have others do unto you: Let me industrially farm you, your children, and your children's children. feed you to my dogs.

When the shoe can be imagined on the other foot, you recognize the discomfort you inflict upon others. have you no care for the suffering of another being? Have you no heart?

What makes you so certain that humans are the only sentient and aware elements in *ALL OF THE FUCKING UNIVERSE* that we have some sort of right to own and control it all?

That's rooted in the "divine right" of religious indoctrination (you filthy hyppocrite).

[Protector]

When the universe began, there was nothing but particles bouncing around. They came together and created stars and everything we have in the universe. We're not special, we're stardust and a part of everything that existed in the beginning of the universe. It just so happened that we became creatures that can appreciate this.

There is no nature and technology, they are one. Everything has been one since the beginning of the universe. Suffering of one meat creature is nothing in comparison with the magnitude of the universe. But the creature lives inside its mind, it's neither good nor bad. It can become trapped and live in a world that is smaller, because its imagination allows that. If it opens its mind to the wonders of the universe, it can see how actually small it is. From there, there is either freedom or fear.

If it can achieve freedom from seeing how insignificant it is, it can do anything. If it thinks that its life controlled by the watchful eye of god, then it will not grow.

The whole universe is in the state of being. It doesn't have a mind or will or anything. It acts upon what happened after the big bang and keeps expanding.

Human mind and its spirit lives in the state of becoming. We are not flesh, but it burdens us. Our imagination represents our potential and we strive to fulfill it. We are minds that want to transcend flesh. We think we're better and we think we will be better.

[Satya]

Suffering of one meat creature is nothing in comparison with the magnitude of the universe. But the creature lives inside its mind, it's neither good nor bad.

You could try to use this as a get out clause of ANY act that inflicts suffering.

 

Discussion in the 1800s/1920s/1940s

Person A: Let's stop beating slaves/slavery in general shall we?

Person A: Let's stop treating women like second class citizens shall we?

Person A: Let's stop this genocide shall we?

 

Reply from Person B to them all: Suffering of one creature is nothing in comparison with the magnitude of the universe.

 

You see?

 

It's an incredibly dubious statement. Try and put yourself in the position of anything or anyone who's rights have been violated.

 

Extensive reasons as to why meat eating, and especially factory farming, is so terrible, detailed here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35770-eating-meat-and-the-whole-jazz-around-it-was-sacrificing-an-act-of-love/page-2

 

No point going off topic. All my points are there.

[Protector]

WHAT?! THERE WAS ANOTHER MEAT THREAD I MISSED? shoot!

 

Imagine you only have one sweater and you must wear it to go outside. It has some silly picture on it and you think it looks insanely dumb. You probably would be looking around trying to guess what people on the street are thinking and how dumb you look. In reality no one cares, they probably have something important they have to be.

The universe wont implode because of a dumb sweater and you can't force it to care. The only thing the sweater hurts is your own ego. The pursuit of justice is a pursuit of ego's needs. If my right are violated, I have something stolen, I become a cow and get slaughtered for meat, my ego suffers. My ego dictates how I see the world and after I die, it disappears and all imaginary importance it used to carry, too.

I don't care if I get hurt in the process. Sure, I can imagine how it would feel if something bad happened to me, but I can also see the bigger picture.

[GrandmasterP]

If the sweater had this logo on you'd be fine