Wen and Wu: the Civil and Martial Fires

[Daeluin]

When looking for descriptions of the Wen and Wu principle, I discovered an article. It includes an excerpt from a Yang taiji classic. This except appears balanced and wise, so I feel it is appropriate to begin with.

 

Others are welcome to share their own quotes and opinions, so we may explore the depths of each other's perspective.

 

 

Wen, the cultural, is the foundation (ti)
and wu, the martial, is the application (yong).

The achievement of the cultural lies in the martial.
It is applied through the essence, qi and spirit (shen)
and the practice of physical training.

The achievement of the martial is attained by the cultural.
It is established on the foundation of body, heart/mind (xin)
and found in fighting.

Further on in case of the cultural and the martial
we speak of the right time and duration.

In the proper sequence it is the foundation of physical training.
When the cultural and the martial are applied in sparring,
the root of fighting is in the capability of storing and exerting.

Therefore, when fighting is done in a cultural way,
it is a soft physical exercise.
The sinew power of the essence, qi, and the spirit.

When in fighting the martial is applied,
it will be hard fighting.
The power of the heart/mind and the body.

The cultural without the preparation of the martial
is like foundation without application.

The martial without the accompaniment of the cultural
is application without foundation.

A single beam of wood cannot provide support
or a single palm, clap.

This is not only true for the achievements
in physical training or fighting –
all things are subject to this principle.

The cultural is an internal principle.
The martial is an external skill.

External skill without internal principle
is surely only brute strength.

It has lost its true face
and consequently one will be defeated
when attacked by an opponent.

Inner principle without external skill
is only the scholarship of stillness
without knowing the application.

But in a confrontation,
the smallest error can lead to death.

In the application against others,
how can one not understand the explanation
of the two words ‘the cultural’ and ‘the martial’?

 

In this quote I discern an emphasis on balance between two types of development. Without one, the other is ineffective.

 

For the sake of nourishing a constructive discussion, please be mindful of how these principles will be revealed in your posting. If we merely apply force without the proper amount of meaning to back it up, is this any better than bullying? Equally, if we express emotion without strategic application, is this not inviting bullying? But more importantly, if we do not listen for and respond to the internal behind the surface of each other's words, how can we hope to avoid a potentially hurtful and ultimately nonconstructive application of energy? Let's be clear: Conversation is an exchange of energy. Many chose to energetically connect to and feed their shared perspectives. When polarity is established and separation ensues, one person takes energy from another. To what end?

 

She had chosen to stare at the bitter dregs in the cup embraced by her hands, sometime during the course of Buruk's pronouncements. Eyes tracking the battered rim, then out to the fingers and thumbs, swathed in the stained, scarred leather. Flattened pads polished and dark, seams fraying, the knuckles stretched and gnarled. Somewhere within was flesh, muscle, tendon, and callus. And bone. Hands were such extraordinary tools, she mused. Tools, weapons, clumsy and deft, numb and tactile. Among tribal hunters, they could speak, a flurry of gestures eloquent in silence. But they could not taste. Could not hear. Could not weep. For all that, they killed so easily.

 

While from the mouth sounds issued forth, recognizably shaped into meanings of passion, of beauty, of blinding clarity. Or muddied or quietly cutting, murderous and evil. Sometimes all at once. Language was war, vaster than any host of swords, spears and sorcery. The self waging battle against everyone else. Borders enacted, defended, sallies and breaches, fields of corpses rotting like tumbled fruit. Words ever seeking allies, ever seeking iconic verisimilitude in the heaving press.

 

And, she realized, she was tired. Tired of it all. Peace reigned in silence, inside and out, in isolation and exhaustion.

 

Steven Erikson, Midnight Tides

Edited August 18, 2014 by Daeluin

[opendao]

For the sake of nourishing a constructive discussion, please be mindful of how these principles will be revealed in your posting. If we merely apply force without the proper amount of meaning to back it up, is this any better than bullying? Equally, if we express emotion without strategic application, is this not inviting bullying?

 

Really good observations about bullying. Two reasons: "lack of arguments" and "excess of emotions". They lead to a supremacy and "rankism" based on the lack of knowledge and "false views".

 

When somebody do such bullying, it's time to reply by Wu, not by Wen.

 

However, when people don't agree based on proofs they have, and they argument their position, then it's not bullying. It's time for Wen, for discussions and understanding, for adjusting or changing our views based on fact that somebody knows more then we know. That's how we can learn.

 

People can usually do only one thing. If they are aggressive by their nature, then they apply Wu when it's time for Wen, and they struggle. If they're are passively flow with the flow and have no power to protect their correct views, then they apply Wen when it's time for Wu, and fail as well.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Wu and Wen is also discussed Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor. To paraphrase, in governing order, harmony, and prosperity to the world, there is a time to do so by encouraging the positive, and there is a time to do so by discouraging the negative, though official Wu and Wen would be during warm seasons for the former and cold seasons for the latter.

 

So when it's warm, be warm, when it's hot be hot; when it's cool, be cool, and when it's cold, be cold.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Martial skill without cultural foundation we could call it something like MMA. Fighting for no reason or for money and possible fame to feed the ego. Cultural without martial ability is a warning for internal martial artist like Tai Chi Chuan because it is a very powerful martial art when trained properly with Wu and Wen.

 

Seems to be an abundance of Tai Chi teachers with no martial skill or people who practice not knowing the martial foundations. I take the OP as a warning for Tai Chi players but also passing down important information to be applied in many ways as principles to life, Tai Chi is the way of lifes ups, downs and all around

[ChiDragon]

FYI....
Wen(文) is a classification given for all scholars without any martial experience.

Wu(武) is a classification given for those who practice martial arts only and with no scholarly experience. Normally, they are bad tempered and ready to fight at anytime.

Wen Wu(文武) is a classification given to one who is a scholar and a martial artist which has more mental control and self disciplined.

[damdao]

Here is a link with a pdf that may help.

 

 

http://www.academia.edu/892144/Chinese_Masculinity_Theorizing_Wen_and_Wu

 

It is written within the field of gender studies and the study is focused in the Confucian point of view.

How is this contemplated in Daoist thinking?

And what is its use in neidan?

[opendao]

It is written within the field of gender studies and the study is focused in the Confucian point of view.

How is this contemplated in Daoist thinking?

 

In my opinion, the authors go around, discuss opposites and their unity, but cannot grasp some other important factors... In general they put right things about wenwu and provided some good quotes and examples. I don't really want to discuss their views on "chinese masculinity" though ;-)

 

And what is its use in neidan?

 

火候

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is a link with a pdf that may help.

 

 

 

It is written within the field of gender studies and the study is focused in the Confucian point of view.

How is this contemplated in Daoist thinking?

And what is its use in neidan?

 

In looking up the etymology, I see an early pictogram for wen was a man with a heart, which now means "cultured," among other things.

 

Wu is constructed from foot, meaning send or go to, and weapons. . It generally refers to military.

 

Remember that Neidan is not all there is to Taoism, though it may encompass the vast majority of it.

 

 

One thing that comes to mind in regards to neigong at least, is tranquility in stillness and tranquility in movement. If we look at these things as representing an essential depth of complimentary opposites, they could represent something which perhaps all of the Eight Immortals have said: cultivation must be in all instances. "A cliff could fall before your feet and it wouldn't unsettle you."

[damdao]

Remember that Neidan is not all there is to Taoism, though it may encompass the vast majority of it.

Yes, because of that the first question was about Daoist thinking, it could be even Daoist psychology, and the other one was about Neidan specifically.

I think that could be nice explore the depths of Daoist psychology; but in many instances, what in the western world we call psychology it is deeply interlinked with "somatology" (organs network, etc.), so it leads us to either Neidan or TCM (or its variants).

 

 

One thing that comes to mind in regards to neigong at least, is tranquility in stillness and tranquility in movement. If we look at these things as representing an essential depth of complimentary opposites, they could represent something which perhaps all of the Eight Immortals have said: cultivation must be in all instances. "A cliff could fall before your feet and it wouldn't unsettle you."

 

Very interesting. It is very useful always keep in mind the complementarity of opposites within the practice.

 

 

火候

Of course, the firing schedule. The scholar fire and the warrior fire, and the right moment for applying each one.

[ChiDragon]

火候

 

Of course, the firing schedule. The scholar fire and the warrior fire, and the right moment for applying each one.

 

Do you really know the metaphorical meaning of 火候......???

Please don't jump to conclusion when you see the character 火(fire).

[opendao]

Remember that Neidan is not all there is to Taoism, though it may encompass the vast majority of it.

 

I see it in reverse, based on what I've heard: Neidan is a core of "Daoism". Everything else (from qigong to fengshui) was created around that core.

 

However Neidan roots are in the Ancient China's culture (Wen!). That's how Yijing is a part of Dao teaching. Same for wenwu, yinyang, wuxin etc.

 

Of course, the firing schedule. The scholar fire and the warrior fire, and the right moment for applying each one.

 

exactly!

[damdao]

 

Do you really know the metaphorical meaning of 火候......???

Please don't jump to conclusion when you see the character 火(fire).

If you have a different reading of it you are most welcomed to share it with us, but 火候 is a technical term in neidan and even in the contemporary health qigong.

As a metaphor, it derives (probably) from external alchemy, but as today we have electrical ovens we cannot grasp the meaning of a firing schedule (the same happen with the procedures of western alchemy).

But I am, personally, more interested in its neidan meaning and in neidan it is a process, and I believe that its actual meaning is not widely known, because some authors identifies it with different kind of breathing patterns and others with awareness patterns.

[ChiDragon]

火候 has a linguistic meaning which has nothing with any field. It means the right condition was sat for a particular event or one has put enough effort into a practice to get to the final result. Furthermore, it is a description indicating the level of accomplishment of a practitioner because one had been putted lots of time and effort to get there.

[damdao]

火候 has a linguistic meaning which has nothing with any field. It means the right condition was sat for a particular event or one has put enough effort into a practice to get to the final result. Furthermore, it is a description indicating the level of accomplishment of a practitioner because one had been putted lots of time and effort to get there.

 

What you say about "a linguistic meaning" is true, but only partially. And you are presenting this as the whole, so it is wrong. It is called "taking the part for the whole" and it is a fallacy. If you insist in it you can be called a sophist.

Saying:

 

 

火候 has a linguistic meaning which has nothing with any field.

 

Is not right because in all languages there are words with different meanings, and a colloquial expression like this (the adjustment of fire for cooking, melting metals, etc.) can be used like an idiom (an accomplishment or level of attainment) or like a technical term in any field, in this case neidan (and the Chinese Health Qigong Association uses it too). To prove this last part: I ask a question and Opendao an answer an then I give a sign of understanding (partial, of course). So from the point of view of the communication it was efficient, we were using the same code, i. e. language. You cannot say that this is wrong (leaving aside the translators and practitioners that use it in the same way). Besides, in a dictionary the are many entries for this expression not just the one you give.

I will not abound in this reply, I was even thinking examples in Sanskrit related to the multiple meaning of a word (because it is like Chinese in its polysemic character) or the example of the term gongfu,but this is the way in which a thread is wasted.

[damdao]

Some questions for all the participants trying to come back to the subjetc of the thread.

I see it in reverse, based on what I've heard: Neidan is a core of "Daoism". Everything else (from qigong to fengshui) was created around that core.

 

However Neidan roots are in the Ancient China's culture (Wen!). That's how Yijing is a part of Dao teaching. Same for wenwu, yinyang, wuxin etc.

What is the relation of this ancient culture to shamanism (巫)? When this wen can be considered a coherent whole?

 

Now either in the psychological level or in the neidan level: in the lunghujing it is spoken, besides the warrior and the scholar, about the ruler. The third aphorism says (in Eva Wong's translation):

 

Control comes from the ruler. The warrior puts down rebellion. The scholar exercises softness.

制猶王者 武以討叛 文懷柔

What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu?

 

Now the last question and I think that perhaps is a little off the topic: is there any relation between the three fires (from the ZhongLü Chuan Dao Ji and the Hui Ming Jing), the fire schedule and the warrior-scholar regulation?

[opendao]

What is the relation of this ancient culture to shamanism (巫)?

 

Interesting question... Based on the 巫 character and its etymology I can assume that it's a part of the ancient tradition. The scientists trace 巫 back to Shang dynasty. But according to the tradition itself, the roots of Dao teaching are at least in Huang Di era.

 

When this wen can be considered a coherent whole?

 

When Chinese characters were invented... Another traditional point of view is Wenshi (Yin Xi).

 

Now either in the psychological level or in the neidan level: in the lunghujing it is spoken, besides the warrior and the scholar, about the ruler. The third aphorism says (in Eva Wong's translation):

 

What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu?

 

it's not about psychology, it's about how to apply principles of government to Neidan (the Longhujing text is about Neidan). Wenwang and wuwang, that's it.

 

Now the last question and I think that perhaps is a little off the topic: is there any relation between the three fires (from the ZhongLü Chuan Dao Ji and the Hui Ming Jing), the fire schedule and the warrior-scholar regulation?

 

They are about the same principle, but it's used in a different context, so the application is different.

Edited August 29, 2014 by opendao

[Daeluin]

Now either in the psychological level or in the neidan level: in the lunghujing it is spoken, besides the warrior and the scholar, about the ruler. The third aphorism says (in Eva Wong's translation):

 

Control comes from the ruler. The warrior puts down rebellion. The scholar exercises softness.

制猶王者 武以討叛 文懷柔

 

What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu?

 

The ruler determines how to deliver the appropriate blend of wen and wu necessary for the given situation.

 

In archery, the ruler is the archer, who must combine inner strength and posture, and then aim for the center of the target. Without the proper amount of strength the arrow will not hit the mark. Without the proper posture the arrow will not hit the mark.

 

In conversation one might have a point to get across. This person is the ruler, and must control the amount of wen and wu to apply based on the present audience, to affect the desired direction in the conversation. Too much force without the appropriate counterweight of culture will only be seen as force, and force will direct the conversation. Too much cultural meandering without appropriate drive to emphasize the point will result in the conversation picking up in any number of directions.

 

But if the aim is true enough, little accomplishes much.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Daeluin

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What could be the ruler in this relation wen-wu?

 

I'd say that another parallel would be, for example, in pushing through blockages when energy is sitting in them, in order for energy to get to "the summit." The ruler is the person sitting there, wen is sitting calmly with the lao gong points over the dantien, allowing energy to grow, rise, etc., with patience and equanimity. Wu is applied when energy gets to a point and needs to move forward.

 

There is also the "warriors breath," which is louder and more forceful, and the "scholars breath," which is near imperceptible.

[Daeluin]

I've been studying the numerics of daoist cosmology a bit more, and in Pregadio's translation of the cantong qi I found a chart listing:

 

丁 ding - Civil Fire

丙 bing - Martial Fire

 

Ding and Bing are the two Celestial Stems representing fire. Ding is yin fire and Bing is yang fire.

 

In the numerics fire is represented by 2 and 7. Even numerics are yin, odd numerics are yang, so we have 2 as the yin, civil fire, and 7 as the yang, martial fire.

 

My read of these principles, which may or not be accurate (deliberately and civilly leaving an opening for someone to say I'm wrong without needing to defend myself, as I'm not trying to prove anything here, just sharing a perspective), is that 2 and 7 are related to polarity. Within the celestial, perhaps 2 represents the polarity of non-existence and existence, and within the material perhaps 7 represents the active distinguishing force that says I am separate from others, here is a boundary, everything within is me, everything without is separate.

 

In the cantong qi and other neidan classics, it is said that the numeric of 7 returns. My read on this is that there is no need for maintaining separation, and the circulation and return of the numeric of 7 allows withdrawal from maintaining the polarity within the material realm. Just my novice opinion of course.

 

In any case, exploring this principle leads me to recognize how this martial fire exists as a separating force. When I touch something hot I tend to pull my hand away quickly, to avoid getting burned. When someone yells at or directs intense emotional energy at me I tend to feel pushed away, and raise my guard to defend against further hurt. There is a line being drawn between things.

 

Wars aren't pretty, and often require the continued use of martial fire in order to prevent retaliation. The use of yang fire also creates earth - it re-positions the center. This is very similar to how I feel ego is created. In neidan water is treated as sacred for it hides the one true breath of yang. And yet water is controlled by earth. When the ego is strong, water is made to revolve around the needs of an artificial center. But when the ego is dissolved, the water can replenish without interference from blockages and dams. I understand that the use of both fires is important, but I sense it is a delicate balance. The cantong qi goes as far as to say that when water flourishes, fire is extinguished and they both die, revealing the pre-celestial wu and ji within.

 

The past few months I continue to see members on these forums attack each other because one way is better than the other. If the martial fire can be used appropriately to drive something in a necessary direction, as in neidan, that is one thing. But I hardly fathom how one could presume to know what such direction is right for another, and in these heated discussions entrenched separation is about all I see. If it was being used effectively I would expect to see positive change over time, but so far all I see are the forging of enemies.

 

The wikipedia entry on Wen and Wu has an interesting quote by John K Fairbank: “Warfare was disesteemed in Confucianism... The resort to warfare (wu) was an admission of bankruptcy in the pursuit of wen [civility or culture]. Consequently, it should be a last resort... Herein lies the pacifist bias of the Chinese tradition... Expansion through wen... was natural and proper; whereas expansion by wu, brute force and conquest, was never to be condoned.”

[Daeluin]

Internally it is said the Civil Fire is used first, to heat and create the proper environment for the Martial Fire to be used. If the intensity of the Martial Fire is applied too soon, perhaps this is like slowly frying an egg vs dropping it into boiling water. In one case the egg is cooked as a whole, in the the other case it becomes fragmented.

 

So I wonder if in conversation this needs application too. When I observe Martial Fire put to use in discussions, it usually seems more intense than the conversation is prepared for, and thus it creates fragmentation. So I wonder if it could be more effectively put to application by using civility to incrementally turn up the heat and allow two sides to rest against each other without conflict, and then when their edges have begun to soften the intense heat can be more effectively put to use.

 

This brings me back to the difference between internal and external use of fire. Internally one has a goal in mind. But externally one is a participant in a greater whole that one does not control. We can also see the numeric of 7 as the inception of spiritual consciousness, perhaps. Internally that is one thing, but when two people come together outside, if their spirits are not in harmony and one person's spirit attempts to externally dominate the combined whole of their two energies, then there is no room for the other person's spirit.

 

In this way perhaps we can use the translation of "Ruling Fire" rather than "Martial Fire," similar to the leading force that ties together the whole between a gathering of energies. For these energies to work toward the same purpose they all must identify with and respect a common goal. In gatherings of people we have governments and monarchs which serve the purpose of this central dynamic of Ruling Fire. But it often causes lots of contention if people don't agree with the decisions made by this governing force. Again following the same principle, using the Ruling Fire to force compliance can lead to civil unrest, but using the Civil Fire can help to bring people back into merging with the whole. Once the whole is gathered, perhaps the Ruling Fire can be used more effectively to drive change forward, now that everyone is one the same page.

 

 

Really good observations about bullying. Two reasons: "lack of arguments" and "excess of emotions". They lead to a supremacy and "rankism" based on the lack of knowledge and "false views".

 

When somebody do such bullying, it's time to reply by Wu, not by Wen.

 

Would this not lead to a continuous chain of wu causing wu?

 

I did some study on emotional escalation within conversations. One person would react to something and become a little more wu in their responses, which caused a reaction in the other person who became a little more wu in their responses. This would keep happening.

 

What I found interesting is that the first few reactions went largely unnoticed. By the time someone was conscious of their reaction, they would instinctively believe the other person had done something wrong and deserved a hard-edged response, without realizing that the other person felt the same way. 

 

In other words, both people sincerely felt the other person had initiated the conflict, which justified their own conflict oriented responses. We see this all the time with children saying "but they started it".

 

However, when people don't agree based on proofs they have, and they argument their position, then it's not bullying. It's time for Wen, for discussions and understanding, for adjusting or changing our views based on fact that somebody knows more then we know. That's how we can learn.

 

Perhaps this helps me understand your decision making process. I'm hearing that if someone appears to utilize wu, you respond with wu. With words this can be very easy, as all someone needs do is describe an absolute, and if you don't agree with it, they become perceived as wrong, and you correct them. However if they step outside of of saying things that appear as wu, and engage in explanations for their perspective, you are happy to also switch gears to a  more wen based approach. I apologize if I am misunderstanding - I am just describing what I am getting from the words you wrote, and it may not be what you intended.

 

People can usually do only one thing. If they are aggressive by their nature, then they apply Wu when it's time for Wen, and they struggle. If they're are passively flow with the flow and have no power to protect their correct views, then they apply Wen when it's time for Wu, and fail as well.

 

I suppose what I am struggling with here, is the presumption that one is right. If someone pushes us, we push back, no questions asked. And we only offer civility if it is offered first. Hence if someone pushes us, we don't give them a chance at civility before pushing them back.

 

But how do we know we are more right than they are? I get the sense that your tradition believes it is connected deeply to ultimate truths, and that at some level this makes your righteousness irreproachable. Please forgive me if I am mistaken here, it is simply what I am receiving from observing your exchanges. We might also see this type of understanding in use of force by police - if someone uses wu with a police officer, the officer is inclined to use wu immediately in response, believing themselves to hold an inherent position of righteousness. Unfortunately this dynamic often leads to violent escalations and creates a divide between civilians and officers of the law. If the law's purpose is for the mutual and common interest of all people it would make more sense to me for all people to uphold the law, and for officers to exist as a form of regularly distributed awareness.

 

I am sorry for opening this up to such an extent; I am finding this principle of vital importance for thorough understanding for correct progress of my personal development. In the daodejing it is advised that a small country submit to invasion by a bigger country, and vice versa for the bigger country to submit to the smaller counter. The small country will inherently benefit from the vaster resources of the larger country, all it needs do is allow its own ego-identity (Ruling Fire) to surrender to transformation. Similarly, the larger country may simply absorb the smaller country, and may benefit from all the smaller country may bring.

 

A great country is like the lower outlet of a river.

It is the world's meeting ground, the world's female.

The female always surpasses the male with stillness.

In her stillness she is yielding.

Therefore:

If a great country yields to a small country,

It will conquer the small country.

If a small country yields to a great country,

It will be conquered by the great country.

So, some who yield become conquerors,

And some who yield get conquered.

A great country needs more people to serve it.

A small country needs more people to serve.

So, if both shall get what they need,

The great country ought to yield.

 

61

Stefan Stenudd

 

This chapter has troubled me for a long time, but perhaps I am beginning to understand the heart of it. For the merging of two identities, the individual spark of life that exists in each one of them, which is what makes them two identities, needs to be come one spark of life that is shared between them. Obviously there will be conflict if one or the other insists on maintaining a separate spark of life, which will result in the Ruling Fire of the one to clash with the Ruling Fire of the other. The whole may have only one heart. Thus the use of the Civil Fire to create unification between the separate parts. In bringing them together with civility, there will be changes to how and where the Ruling Fire will be shaped in is existence. Often we seem to attach to the Ruling Fire as being the "identity" and desire to fight against threats to this identity, which is simply resistance to change.

 

Next we have the ideas of wu-wei and ziran. Externally invisible, one's fire returned and hidden within, there is no external conflict between things one happens upon. One may flow harmoniously along one's course without being controlled by the inevitability of conflict between one's exposed Ruling Fire and that of another's. In this way one's internal is rare and pure, while simultaneously one's external face is empty, in support of the natural Ruling Fire that exists externally between all things beneath heaven. This is Zhuangzi's Walking Two Roads, and LaoZi's not daring to be ahead of anything beneath heaven, and the yijing's hexagram 13 ䷌, sameness with others; the fire is hidden within, so that one may be one with heaven.

 

So again and again I seem to reach the same conclusions. Perhaps I am simply coming to a time where I accept that others will insist on using force and being controlled by their use of force, and grow more internally on my own. This changes the topic back to the difficulty in finding good teachers, because they are hidden. However, following the principle, it seems that a good teacher, even in hiding their Ruling Fire, may still offer their Civil Fire, but it is up to the prospective student to hear the depth within what is offered.