One Two Three

[Nemo]

Tao gave birth to One,

One gave birth to Two,

Two gave birth to Three,

Three gave birth to all the myriad beings. Chapter 42 lines 1-4 John C.H. Wu translation.

 

I have spent the last few weeks thinking on this part of the Tao Te Ching. I know that some religious Taoists take it to represent the three divine forms of Laozi. I have also read that some modern Taoists take it to represent the nature of evolution.

After some thought I've come to think of it as the nature of mind. I would be interested in what those on this forum make of this cryptic message.

[shazi]

Tao gave birth to One,

One gave birth to Two,

Two gave birth to Three,

Three gave birth to all the myriad beings. Chapter 42 lines 1-4 John C.H. Wu translation.

 

I have spent the last few weeks thinking on this part of the Tao Te Ching. I know that some religious Taoists take it to represent the three divine forms of Laozi. I have also read that some modern Taoists take it to represent the nature of evolution.

After some thought I've come to think of it as the nature of mind. I would be interested in what those on this forum make of this cryptic message.

 

dao shang yi - dao gives birth to one

 

in most ancient interpretations, whether in wenzi or elsewhere, this giving birth to 'one' is the concept of wuji - that which is without limit: undifferentiated form.

 

yi shang er - one gives birth to two

 

it's hard to argue against this 'two' referring to what we was later always called yin and yang; it even mentions yin and yang later in the verse. the challenge is that 'yin' and 'yang' didn't have as prevalent of a concept until into the han dynasty, after the verse was written. yet there is strong evidence of the dualism of forms, as in chapter 2, was part of the original concepts of daojia, and certainly 'yin' and 'yang' were one of these. This 'dualism' of forms, the separation of this and that, is what happens when dao digresses into wan wu/the myriad things.

 

er shang san - two gives birth to three

 

there is a lot of controversy over this phrase. zhuangzi simply shows in one place that once there's two, there's an ongoing arithmetic progression of three, etc. further, in modern chinese, san/three in this context simply means 'many'. hence, to one school, san/three has no special significance, other than the progression to wanwu/myriad things.

 

on the other hand, san to some means the unification of the yin/yang duals = taiji/the supreme ultimate. in chapter two, the 'mutual production' of duals returns back to dao. the unification of duals, the taiji, is oneness, yet still having the disversity of the duals present, the oneness, plus the two equals three.

 

at the risk of overly deconstructing all this, i think it fair to say that 'three' is hard to find a concrete meaning in the texts, and there is little classical support for the taiji meaning. yet for many, myself included, the taiji meaning plays well.

 

san shang wanwu - three gives birth to 10K things

 

whether taiji or simply as a result of the digression from dao, wanwu/myriad things are the result. pretty clear in its meaning. in wenzi and guanzi, the combination of the qi/vital energy of yin and yang result in life, and when not unified, death results.

 

and now for the rest of the chapter:

 

wanwu fu yin er bao yang - the myriad things carry yin whilest embracing yang

 

according to my physicist friend from beijing, this expression speaks directly to particle physics and electrical force. in other words, 'fu' is the negative partical (electron) or charge, as is yin, and yang is positive charge. to say 'bao yang' is to refer to a positron. the key concept in particle physics, as in life, is that there is a field created by fu yin and bao yang, where the 10K things exist. All life is reliant on this interplay between yin and yang, whether speaking in terms of daojia or physics: it is the same principle.

 

chong qi yi wei he - merging their vital energy in order to make harmony.

 

entire books have been written on this concept. it is the core principle of the neiye and is replete throughout the han schools of daojia. the neijing of traditional chinese medicine also employs the notion of harmony created by proper balance of yin/yang qi.

 

not much is said in the daodejing about he/harmony. indeed, it seems like more of a confucian principle to focus on harmony (harmony among the five relations, etc.). nevertheless, many other writings spend a lot of time discussion how harmony creates life and stiving/contention steal it. although in daojia, it is often said there is no right and wrong, but there are definitely favoured behaviours, wuwei (noncontrivance), wuyu (nondesire), buzhi (non-knowledge), and he/harmony.

 

after the above, the text takes a turn into some aphorisms that i am not sure are relevant to the previous text.

 

ren zhi suo wu wei: gu, gua, bugu - what people hate: to be lonely, widowed, hungry,

er wang gong yi wei cheng - yet [these are what] kings and nobles call themselves.

gu wu huo sun zhi er yi - thus, one may lose by gaining

huo yi zhi er sun - and gain by losing

 

ren zhi suo jiao wo yi jiao zhi - what others teach i also teach:

qiang liang bu de qi si - a violent person meets an early death (does not obtain his death)

wu jiang yi wei jiao fu - i shall make this the father of my teaching.

 

good stuff, not sure how it relates to 'dao shang yi...'

 

perhaps someone else can elucidate.

 

-shazi

[rain]

Tao gave birth to One,

One gave birth to Two,

Two gave birth to Three,

Three gave birth to all the myriad beings. Chapter 42 lines 1-4 John C.H. Wu translation.

 

I have spent the last few weeks thinking on this part of the Tao Te Ching. I know that some religious Taoists take it to represent the three divine forms of Laozi. I have also read that some modern Taoists take it to represent the nature of evolution.

After some thought I've come to think of it as the nature of mind. I would be interested in what those on this forum make of this cryptic message.

 

Yes I listened to the chapters like you , then I suddenly see this in the book I chose to read today.

I started reading "Opening the Dragon Gate", translated by Thomas Cleary.

There in chapter 4 I think I find something of what you are referring to.

Must say though that I need to contemplate this myself much more. It seems cryptic, but I wonder.. we could actually experience what they are talking about?

 

It is a dialogue between Han Zhongli and Lu Dongbin, two of the Eight Immortals.

"Zhongli said; "The Way basically has no question, the question basically has no answer. But when true energy divides, total simplicity is already gone. The Way produces one, one produces two, two produces three. One stands for substance, two stands for function, three stands for creation and evolution."

"The substance and function are not beyond yin and yang; creation and evolution are caused by their interaction. The higher, middle and lower are three fundamentals; heaven, earth, and humanity collectively realize one Way.The Way produces two energies, the two energies produce the three fundamentals, the three fundamentals produce the five elements, the five elements produce all beings."

 

there is much more said..

Edited September 2, 2007 by rain

[shazi]

Yes I listened to the chapters like you , then I suddenly see this in the book I chose to read today.

I started reading "Opening the Dragon Gate", translated by Thomas Cleary.

 

It is a dialogue between Han Zhongli and Lu Dongbin, two of the Eight Immortals.

"Zhongli said; "...The Way produces one, one produces two, two produces three. One stands for substance, two stands for function, three stands for creation and evolution."

"The substance and function are not beyond yin and yang; creation and evolution are caused by their interaction. The higher, middle and lower are three fundamentals; heaven, earth, and humanity collectively realize one Way.

 

Cleary should be taken fairly seriously. I have spent a lot of time comparing his translations to the original chinese, and he is accurate and reflects a deep understanding of daojia.

 

in my previous post, wuji representing the one is undifferentiated form. 'substance' may well be a good way to put that, but it is undifferentiated.

 

i am initially troubled with the word 'function', but given the statement 'not beyond yin and yang' and that their function leads to the creation/evolution stage of three, it makes sense. that the third stage creation/evolution produces all things equates to other definitions of taiji.

 

it's a very good quote.

 

thanks!

 

-shazi

[MatthewQi]

Tao is the Source Progenitor. This is the only thing to be concerned with To many aspirants become consumed with the 0,1,2,3 stuff. Don't take my word on this. Put your focus on Tao, follow what comes to you, and develop your own relationship with Tao.

 

Best,

 

MatthewQi

[Nemo]

Most interesting responses. After reading the Tao Te Ching multiple times in multiple translations I've come to the idea that much of it is layered in meaning, so that one chapter could represent many things. Thus part of my interest in how others on this forum understood this passage.

Shazi: Zuangzi's account of this is one of my favorites. If one looks at it from a modern physical perspective the negative and positive charges and the multiplication of living things does make perfect sense. I thank you for going into such detail and it is interesting to see the literal translation of the Chinese, it gives me a few new concepts to mentally play with.

Rain: I am finding that I like Cleary's style and am currently reading two books translated by him. I do not have the Dragon's Gate yet, but I am sure in time I will have a chance to read it. It sounds like a most interesting read and may open some new understandings for me.

MatthewQi: There is little chance of my becoming obsessed with the 123. It is simply one of many things I focus on until my mind can't take it any more and becomes blank. Paradox and incomprehensibility are my close friends.

 

Because of the belief system I come from I tend to view reality as a matter of mind, to the point where I even doubt the reality of things that are outside of my current experience. i.e. Does a person who I talk to exist once they leave my sight and thoughts?

To me the 123 have come to represent the nature of thought where in one represents the first thought within mind, that by it's very nature leads to a second thought and then a third and this cascades into all the countless little thoughts that plague us daily.

As stated above I am starting to think that the Tao Te Ching is so layered in concept that there could be countless "true" ways to understand even this one passage. Thinking on this in turn leads my mind down a maze of possibilities which in turn paralyzes it and everything becomes empty and beautiful. My limited understanding is likely to be way off, but for now it seems to bring me closer in accord with the Tao whether it is right or wrong.

[MatthewQi]

Cool! Sounds a bit like what a Zen koan is used for and some other type of practice which I can't remember what it is called but basically exhausts us of thinking until, whala!

[tripcomputer]

This is an excellent passage, and MatthewQi points to the idea that was made prominent when I was discussing it with a fellow student. The Tao is the origin in the sequence of creation. In R.L. Wing's Tao of Power, it is mentioned that this refers to the origin of the universe.

 

"Tao produced the one: spatial/temporal reality.

One produced the two: opposite charges of energy known as yin and yang.

Two produced the three: matter, energy, and their binding physical laws."

 

This seems similar to the Zhongli quote earlier, but the commentary in the Tao of Power has a theme of pointing to the understanding of the origins of the universe as a way of understanding the Tao.

 

Is this chapter a good interpretation of the answer to the question "what is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?"

[rain]

This is an excellent passage, and MatthewQi points to the idea that was made prominent when I was discussing it with a fellow student. The Tao is the origin in the sequence of creation. In R.L. Wing's Tao of Power, it is mentioned that this refers to the origin of the universe.

 

"Tao produced the one: spatial/temporal reality.

One produced the two: opposite charges of energy known as yin and yang.

Two produced the three: matter, energy, and their binding physical laws."

 

This seems similar to the Zhongli quote earlier, but the commentary in the Tao of Power has a theme of pointing to the understanding of the origins of the universe as a way of understanding the Tao.

 

Is this chapter a good interpretation of the answer to the question "what is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?"

 

The Way produces one, one produces two, two produces three. One stands for substance, two stands for function, three stands for creation and evolution."

"The substance and function are not beyond yin and yang; creation and evolution are caused by their interaction.

 

??? only wondering...

[doc benway]

One is wuji, two is taiji, could three refer to consciousness/awareness? It could make some sense that differentiation of complimentary aspects of being (ie the two or taiji) is a prerequisite to everyday consciousness which, in turn, produces awareness of the 10,000 things. It's then our aim in cultivation to return to the source - beyond or prior to regular consciousness, ie prenatal consciousness.

I've seen other sources which refer to three as being analogous to the "child" of the two, implying reproduction or the beginning of life. Reproduction being the source of the myriad things. Like mentioned earlier - creation and evolution.

Just like any single character has multiple meanings and interpretations, Daode jing has infinite possibilities.

Cool stuff and excellent question... I agree that references to consciousness and perception are inseparable from references to the external universe - mutual arising.

[tripcomputer]

The Way produces one, one produces two, two produces three. One stands for substance, two stands for function, three stands for creation and evolution."

"The substance and function are not beyond yin and yang; creation and evolution are caused by their interaction.

 

??? only wondering...

 

This is a good point, they are all intertwined as well as being several meaningful ways to interpret the passage on different physical/energetic levels.

 

The definition I posted earlier is best understood in the context of the birth/genesis of the universe. Spatial/temporal reality is the platform of substance (where there is not matter, it is understood there is just space/time). The function is the method of change in dual polarity (known as yin and yang). Creation and evolution occur (leading to the 10,000 things) upon/with/by way of matter and energy obeying the physical laws (the three) that are brought about by the polarity (the two) within reality (the one). These all are levels leading to the Tao, like water going down a drain.

 

After an attempt to explain, it seems less clear...