The three realms and meditative quiescence, psychic powers.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

I am sure that scene in X-men is not just invented from thin air. There must be real life inspiration behind it, because it's too realistic for lack of a better description.

 

And remember the subsequent scene where the young Magneto can no longer duplicate his power? And so what does the camp commander do to unlock it? He shoots Magneto's mother to death, and this does it.

 

My opinion is that when Magneto's mother was killed in front of him, something in Magneto died, and that something was the human aspect of himself. So in a way, Magneto was dead inside, because an important part of his identity was tied to his mother, and when she died, that part of him that was tied to his mother died as well. And in that moment of extreme duress Magneto didn't care about anything. I am sure he didn't care about reality or unreality, and that's when his power was unleashed for the second time.

 

Why do we consider some situations to be extreme? I think the entire point of an extreme situation is when something very important to us is threatened. Isn't that in some important sense very similar to being on the brink of death?

[Tibetan_Ice]

The first time I popped out of the top of my head it felt like I was going to die. There was a type of dread and fear accompanied by a feeling of great danger. It took me ten years before I decided to see what would happen if I really got out. I did a meditation, focused on the hole at the top of the head, found the opening and could see the space on the other side. Then I jumped out. Well, much to my surprise, I bounced right back. I had hit a kind of barrier which was invisible, kind of like a plastic wrap, but when you made contact with it, various multi-colored lights would appear. I tried jumping out several times but I kept bouncing back. I had conquered my fear of death but there was still something else to overcome.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I would most definitely agree, it is at those times when we are close to death, that we allow more. Or situations similar to death.

 

Now that whole conscious mind snaps (Magento for example thing), what decided for us regular human folks after something which pushes us that far past our limits and ourselves, whether we will be one of the myriad of practitioners who end up in the asylum, compared to someone who grows and finds strength from it afterwards (sometimes after a year or 2 of recovery)?

[goldisheavy]

The first time I popped out of the top of my head it felt like I was going to die. There was a type of dread and fear accompanied by a feeling of great danger. It took me ten years before I decided to see what would happen if I really got out. I did a meditation, focused on the hole at the top of the head, found the opening and could see the space on the other side. Then I jumped out. Well, much to my surprise, I bounced right back. I had hit a kind of barrier which was invisible, kind of like a plastic wrap, but when you made contact with it, various multi-colored lights would appear. I tried jumping out several times but I kept bouncing back. I had conquered my fear of death but there was still something else to overcome.

 

Exactly! But before you conquered your fear of death, you wouldn't even dare to practice something like that in earnest!

[goldisheavy]

I would most definitely agree, it is at those times when we are close to death, that we allow more. Or situations similar to death.

 

Now that whole conscious mind snaps (Magento for example thing), what decided for us regular human folks after something which pushes us that far past our limits and ourselves, whether we will be one of the myriad of practitioners who end up in the asylum, compared to someone who grows and finds strength from it afterwards (sometimes after a year or 2 of recovery)?

 

I think firstly there is a false dichotomy there: either your destination is the asylum, or you grow from it. Why not a situation where you spend a year in the asylum and grow from it? Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

That said, I understand the nature of your question and I believe the difference between people who crumble and can't put themselves back together and those who outlast all difficulties is one of inner peace. The people who end up lasting have some reserves of inner peace which allows them to be resilient and which supports diamond-like resolve. It's hard to maintain diamond-like resolve to see a difficult stretch of practice to its next phase if one is constantly paranoid, frazzled, absentminded, scared, etc.

 

I think all of us have felt fear. I have certainly felt insane fear compared to which fear of mere bodily death is but a joke. But what gets me through is that fear is not my defining characteristic. No matter how intense my fear, it is not able to overwhelm me, and I am always able to touch a core of peace deep in my inner being. This way it's hard for me to become discouraged or fragmented. But because I do feel fear it does mean sometimes I need to pull back and stop doing certain things.

 

And maybe that's another thing. Maybe the people who crumbled with no hope in sight went too fast? Too much, too fast? Maybe this ability to pull back once in a while and take a breather is what keeps some of us going for the long haul. This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. Right?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Fear of losing who we (think we) are, is just like fear of death. Also that fear of nothing to hold onto anymore, nothing staying the same, everything changing and warping. Takes a bit to get used to, and usually slowly over time it can dissolve relatively within our comfort zone.

 

In the west anyways.

 

What about folks who have grown up where all this is natural, and even encouraged?

[aboo]

An interesting thread to read. Like ZOOM I haven't had many experiences that I'd classify on the extreme side. The only time, was as Tibetan Ice also experienced, when I popped out of the top of my head and it wasn't enjoyable: I thought I was dead. I have a hole in my eardrum from a childhood operation, I experienced the most powerful release of energy, an uncontrollable freight train, it entered my head and I was in agony due to the pressure it caused on my eardrum. In one sense it was a physical relief to have that pain end when I popped out of my head; I assume when the knot at the seventh chakra was broke. I had the experience of floating in a void, and eventually re-entered my body, nothing of note beyond that. It's never occurred again, the physical pain validated the experience to me, it is impossible for me to pass it off as an illusion like with other mild energy experiences. I have experienced numerous visions, colours, pinprick of light at the third eye location, but as ZOOM has said, nothing I could "take to the bank" as proof of anything.

Edited August 25, 2014 by aboo

[goldisheavy]

Thought experiment time:

 

Let's say 5 people witness you doing something amazing and they all agree that something happened. Then for various reasons they die and you no longer repeat your prior deed. Once the 5 people who saw you do something amazing die, their power of testimony dies with them. What is the status of the deed at that point? Is it an illusion? Is it real even though all the people who could testify to it are now gone? Is your own memory of those 5 people agreeing that you've done something amazing itself the testimony required?

 

Even assuming the 5 people each left their testimony in writing before they died, without them being alive to defend their written words from critics and doubters, what power will such testimony have? Won't that power wane with time?

 

Even when consensus is widely shared it doesn't seem to have a lot of stability. For example, look what happened when classical physics got displaced by the quantum-relativistic physics. Classical physics is now more like a distant memory rather than something we consider real. Nobody thinks atoms are like billiard balls anymore. That's gone. But at one point everyone agreed that atoms were like tiny little balls. And now what?

 

So even if many people agree your powers are "the real deal" so to speak, how reliable is that? Public opinion is not guaranteed to be constant. For whose (or for what) benefit is such testimony?

 

Please don't get me wrong, I think involving other people into the world of greater possibility is a fun thing to do. I am all for it. I'm just saying that the issue of testimony and objectivity is not so clear cut once I think about it deeper. I've had a lucid dream once where I reached out my hand to another dream character, and by doing this I was able not only fly myself, but to have this dream character fly with me. In the context of that dream, that was basically objective proof of my flying ability. When I woke up, the character who could testify for me and my objective proof were gone.

 

Even if you convince everyone on Earth that you have genuine psychic power, where will that crowd of people be once you die? Will these folks follow you to the next life and offer their testimony there too? I think that's doubtful.

Edited August 26, 2014 by goldisheavy

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well now, you've opened up a big can of worms. Firstly I want to say that I've had numerous experiences of losing distinction between dreams and the so-called "reality." These experiences were eye-opening, to say the least.

 

They are! It sure lets you know how limited your perceptions were before that. A few months straight of this though got to be a bit much, so I stopped. At least what is seen can't be unseen.

 

As for your last question, I don't know how to answer it because I am not sure what you're asking about. I think in some sense we're always dreaming. Lucid dreaming means bringing an aspect of wakefulness into your dreams. Lucid waking means bringing an aspect of dreaming into your wakefulness. Lucid waking is hard because it's frightening. And it's frightening because we tend to want to feel like there is solid ground under our feet, so to speak, and when you know you're dreaming the whole time, the solid ground is gone. For someone who isn't used to living without a solid ground, that's a scary proposition. I speak from experience here.

 

Yes that. When things start to warp and wave "how they shouldn't" it gets downright freaky. That tends to be when I slow down or go ground . Though I do enjoy a good 1-4 hour temple session where I embrace it when it happens. Also when what one thought was physical objects come and go.... I seem to recall myself saying to the powers that be or whatever "OK guys, this is a bit much for me at this time" before lol. Glad I have had more experienced folks I could ask stuff of when odd things came about. I would like to figure out how to be more open to seeing past the illusion, but also be able to function well in my daily life. A very slow and gradual process is best I figure.

 

I too had to abandon an entire type of practice because it was producing experiences I just could not psychologically handle at the time (and probably would still have at least some trouble with it today, if I tried again).

 

Probably a good thing. Been there . It's good to know one's current limits figure. There is a reason the training takes decades instead of days I think.

 

People tend to think that psychic power is all fun stuff, but I don't think that's the correct picture at all. In fact, what ZOOM said earlier about being nearly suicidal during his psychic episode is very relevant to what I want to say. Truth is, when things start to move in ways you don't think should be possible, the first reaction will be fear, and second, disbelief. It's not fun at all.

 

Yeah, those not born with it! Actually I find it fun in the exploration aspect. One can use it to explore the reality and universe we live in much more deeply. However, being able to see and feel the horrible murder that happened in a spot years previously (for example) isn't very pleasant. I am very very very fortunate in that I have learned methods to turn it off and on. Some can't do this.

 

I think in some ways psychic powers are like the tricks of high flying acrobats in a circus. For the viewers it is all pure fun. But for the circus athletes who are flying high above the ground, swinging from one trapeze to the next, they know an element of fear, and they also know a few who have died doing the very same "trick." Even an experienced circus performer probably experiences some fear, but what to say of a newbie? A newbie might vomit just from getting up close to the ceiling before even swinging on a trapeze. I think real psychic power is a lot like this. It's fun for the viewers, but no fun for the performer, unless the performer is either a natural freak of some sort, or extremely experienced in the course of some training, extremely familiar with what is about to happen, accustomed to it, and knows there is nothing to fear.

 

I think it takes just as much training too. Either training to get there, or training to learn to work with it in a healthy and productive manner.

 

I think you just learn to keep going through the terrifying fear bits with the psychic stuff, and the trapeze stuff. Then you become at peace with it with more experience. Though, none of us stay still at our current skill level, we are always trying to improve, do more, and thus new situations which are unexpected and sometimes actually do still shock us come up!

 

Though I think with psychic stuff, it is 24X7 really. We use it all day everyday whether we realize it or not (or at least I do) and it feels really odd when it gets shut down for a time for whatever reason. It's sort of like being blind for a bit or something, losing one sense.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I think firstly there is a false dichotomy there: either your destination is the asylum, or you grow from it. Why not a situation where you spend a year in the asylum and grow from it? Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

There are obviously not quite made it to the asylum levels of this that lead to strength . I think I also mentioned the needing to recoop after a year or two, then strength... but... just from what I have seen so far... I haven't seen any cases of just went that far off for a year or two and fully recovered . There was always something not quite right afterwards that tended to lead to not being able to function in some major way, from all the cases I've seen. (I've been hanging around with far to many practitioners for far to many years, and seen a lot). But I'm sure it's possible. Now the nearly made it there sure; that is extremely common I think. By asylum I mean not able to care for oneself for a time longer than a couple of weeks due to emotional or mental troubles and having to be helped before one hurts themselves due to behaviors or not being functional enough or whatever. I have seen this far to many times to be comfortable with, amongst dabbles .

 

I think I should copy and past that last bit to the thread about why are some things kept secret. While I'm all for darwins law and all....

 

That said, I understand the nature of your question and I believe the difference between people who crumble and can't put themselves back together and those who outlast all difficulties is one of inner peace. The people who end up lasting have some reserves of inner peace which allows them to be resilient and which supports diamond-like resolve. It's hard to maintain diamond-like resolve to see a difficult stretch of practice to its next phase if one is constantly paranoid, frazzled, absentminded, scared, etc.

 

Hmmm, really good point . It is very fortunate that all the various systems do include a lot of work towards this. Also I think that ways to release the built up pressure are very important (ZOOM definitely had that one covered!) I have also noticed that the Work tends to amplify... well everything... ourselves.... so it would be about *what* is being amplified. Also self knowledge is so very important. If we have unresolved stuff, that is going to screw with us at various possible breaking points. All that has to be released over time throughout the practice, to stay balanced I think.

 

I think all of us have felt fear. I have certainly felt insane fear compared to which fear of mere bodily death is but a joke. But what gets me through is that fear is not my defining characteristic. No matter how intense my fear, it is not able to overwhelm me, and I am always able to touch a core of peace deep in my inner being. This way it's hard for me to become discouraged or fragmented. But because I do feel fear it does mean sometimes I need to pull back and stop doing certain things.

 

The knowing when to slow down is so very important! Again very good point. I think maybe some folks don't heed their own internal advice, or sometimes the advice of their teachers.

 

And maybe that's another thing. Maybe the people who crumbled with no hope in sight went too fast? Too much, too fast? Maybe this ability to pull back once in a while and take a breather is what keeps some of us going for the long haul. This is not a sprint. It's a marathon. Right?

 

Hmmmm. I would agree with you. Or those of us lucky enough to have others to help when things have gone a little to far or gotten a bit to real . Going to fast is most definitely one of the biggest dangers on the path. So hard not to when one is new though!

[goldisheavy]

Yes that. When things start to warp and wave "how they shouldn't" it gets downright freaky. That tends to be when I slow down or go ground . Though I do enjoy a good 1-4 hour temple session where I embrace it when it happens. Also when what one thought was physical objects come and go.... I seem to recall myself saying to the powers that be or whatever "OK guys, this is a bit much for me at this time" before lol. Glad I have had more experienced folks I could ask stuff of when odd things came about. I would like to figure out how to be more open to seeing past the illusion, but also be able to function well in my daily life. A very slow and gradual process is best I figure.

 

From my own experience I've discovered that I needed a new way to find stability.

 

Previously stability was assured in my mind by my willing and unbending tacit adherence to the idea that there really was an objective, solid, unchanging, eternal realm "out there", and that no matter what I thought or did, it would always be the same familiar place. This had comforting qualities. I actually believed I lived inside a Universe, and I thought that the Universe was a constant and real place outside of me where my human body was located, etc. Well now that belief system is on its way out. And so my previous source of stability (and familiarity) is gone with it.

 

My new source of stability is my own will. I've done a lot of work on the nature of my own volition/intent. I've realized that my will has no starting or finishing point, and that its apparently vigorous activity is only vigorous from a very detailed perspective, but when taking a long view, it's very stable. I've realized that will is one unbroken flow without segmentation. I've realized that intent is layered, and this layering brings all kinds of complexity into how intent manifests. (An example of the layering would be playing a game where the will to play the game is one layer, and how you choose the individual moves inside the game is another layer. The layer of volition where you choose the moves will make no sense without the supporting layer of volition where you are committed to playing a game.) I realized the previous stability of the seemingly external and seemingly self-existent objective realm was actually a reflection of my own will's stability. What I experienced as the stability of the world was me disowning the function of my own volition, basically. So my new stability comes from trusting myself. I know I can always trust myself. I know my volition ultimately makes no mistakes. It always moves perfectly and it's always in a fulfilled state at the highest level of insight. This is something I've been learning to trust more and more. It's a completely inner, secret reliance.

 

And there is a meditation that goes along with this. It is calm and effortless abiding in whatever situation I am in, while knowing my will is timeless and perfect, and I am always, always doing the right thing, because ultimately there is no external angle of viewing from which what I am doing can be corrected in an objective manner. When I abide in this way, I feel like my being pools itself together like a lake that's getting deeper and deeper. I feel my mind pooling and crystallizing itself in my body. All points of tension relax and go away. Anxiety goes away. Uncertainty and doubt go away. I experience nothing short of lordliness at this point, and a complete and total solitude -- I am alone. In this state I am alone. There is nothing and no one else. Oh how I used to fear being alone. How I used to fear not being known, not being seen, heard, understood, acknowledged.

 

Especially being understood was a big craving for me. This is where my ability to explain things so well comes from! I want to be understood and I could not tolerate the idea that maybe I cannot be understood. The notion that I pass through time in perpetual obscurity, never understood, never known by anyone other than myself, that was truly a frightening notion. But actually it's only frightening from one perspective. From a different perspective it is a great source of power and peace.

Edited August 26, 2014 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

There are obviously not quite made it to the asylum levels of this that lead to strength . I think I also mentioned the needing to recoop after a year or two, then strength... but... just from what I have seen so far... I haven't seen any cases of just went that far off for a year or two and fully recovered . There was always something not quite right afterwards that tended to lead to not being able to function in some major way, from all the cases I've seen. (I've been hanging around with far to many practitioners for far to many years, and seen a lot). But I'm sure it's possible. Now the nearly made it there sure; that is extremely common I think. By asylum I mean not able to care for oneself for a time longer than a couple of weeks due to emotional or mental troubles and having to be helped before one hurts themselves due to behaviors or not being functional enough or whatever. I have seen this far to many times to be comfortable with, amongst dabbles .

 

It's impossible to know what is functional and what isn't. If you judge function by things like taking a shower, shaving in the morning for men, putting makeup on for women, going to work and maintaining a "respectable" career, having a home and paying for it, going to sleep every night, eating on time, etc... then you need to be aware that many sages were not functional in this way.

 

A lot of the activity that we usually consider functional is the activity of maintaining a human body and the activity of maintaining one's reputation. Such things are necessary to live in the world of convention.

 

Once you reject the world of convention, once you realize you no longer want to be human, your idea about what is functional and what is dysfunctional can and should change. Sometimes gradually. Sometimes drastically. Most people on our path don't want to be humans forever.