Thomas Sowell (former Marxist) Dismantles Leftist Ideology

[joeblast]

Did I say that?

no, just the relative...oddness of "capitalist forces protecting themselves" - most anyone will seek to protect themselves, so it was more a jab at the word dance. but when the governments allow big players to get away with murder and then some with a wink, nod, pocketful of cash...what the bloody hell does that have to do with capitalism? every single instance of things like that are things that have served to destroy capitalism, break the price discovery mechanism, and prevent new players from entering the game or small ones from getting large enough to compete.

 

so like pretty much every other "critique" of capitalism, you point at everything that has undermined & destroyed it and called it failures of the paradigm itself. I didnt think government employees for sale was part of capitalism....or have the progressives changed the definition of that also?

[Brian]

@Brian

 

I don't disagree with any of that as an aspiration. However what i generally refer to as capitalism is what we actually have in the world (warts and all) not some abstract perfected version. Maybe its just how we apply terms differently.

 

I think that individual liberty and the rule of law (which protects that liberty) is the key Western value which underpins the US, UK, Europe, Australia etc.

I am describing the way it works in the real world, Apech -- not "some abstract perfected version." The distortions come from layers of anti-capitalist manipulations and plain old opportunistic political corruption but that doesn't obscure the sound vehicle beneath the graffiti.

 

If you can't recognize a sound free market in your own community, perhaps it is time to either move or work to reclaim that natural environment by rejecting the corruptors. My community is pretty nice...

 

If one's spouse says "the abstract perfected version of a monogamous relationship sounds good on paper but I just keep having sex with strangers," the problem isn't with the concept of "monogamy," is it?

 

I am in total agreement with you, BTW, on both the individual liberty and rule of law values, and I won't throw my hands up and abandon either principle simply because some bad actors have sullied them. I also consider them fundamental components of a so-called capitalistic society and I consider them both to be anathema in an anti-capitalistic society. In fact, I think those two principles (along with personal property) can well be used as bellwethers for the near-term health of a society. See Venezuela as an example.

[Apech]

@Brian and Joeblast

 

I still have a strong feeling that you both believe in something that doesn't really exist and when you see that its not really working you blame 'the other' = big government, corporate fascism or something. But I am glad that you have this ideal as it seems very human to me. And I hope that I am wrong and it does exist.

 

I live by the way in a country which was held back for generations by fascists (40% literacy rates), underwent a communist revolution (bloodless)(universal education and healthcare) and then became a democracy (all in the last 40 years or so) and had the natural base of its economy destroyed by the European Union.

[GrandmasterP]

At its best the Co-Operative movement is a good model as well.

Sadly our Co- Op Bank here in Blighty has been beset by scandal.

The farmers' Co- Op near us has a good shop , you can join as a member for just £1 share and then benefit from the savings.

Only trouble is some stuff such as weedkiller that they do comes in huge drums, too much for small scale growing.

I've had some bargains though.

[joeblast]

If one's spouse says "the abstract perfected version of a monogamous relationship sounds good on paper but I just keep having sex with strangers," the problem isn't with the concept of "monogamy," is it?

ROFL...and so the citizen gets treated rather the same

[Brian]

@Brian and Joeblast

 

I still have a strong feeling that you both believe in something that doesn't really exist and when you see that its not really working you blame 'the other' = big government, corporate fascism or something. But I am glad that you have this ideal as it seems very human to me. And I hope that I am wrong and it does exist.

 

I live by the way in a country which was held back for generations by fascists (40% literacy rates), underwent a communist revolution (bloodless)(universal education and healthcare) and then became a democracy (all in the last 40 years or so) and had the natural base of its economy destroyed by the European Union.

Thank you, Apech, for this personal insight. It helps me to see your perspective.

 

Personally, during roughly that same 40 years, I have watched my own country steadily slip further and further from its rational underpinnings in the name of "progress" despite clear res ipsa loquitur evidence to the contrary -- case in point, the US Department of Education has been in place for 34 years & has an annual budget of between $70B & $90B (depending on how you slice it) but the quality of the nation's education has tanked during that precise time period. The response? Clearly, the government just needs more money and more authority, right? I mean, what insensitive lout isn't willing to forgo a little hard-earned cash and give up a personal liberty or two (not to mention that pesky Constitution) when it is "For The Children"^TM.

 

The "capitalist system" (I really don't like the term because it is a "setting them up to knock them down" thing) is a model intended to reflect observed natural phenomena. As such, it is necessarily a simplification and idealization. Same applies to "the law of gravity," though, and that doesn't diminish its validity.