Unnatural Humans

[Protector]

Sooooooooooo

 

I started thinking that humans might not be a part of the natural world

 

It all started with agriculture. Humans could have managed just fine with scavenging and hunting things. Agriculture was invented for some reason and people started growing their own crops. Realistically, there aren't any real benefits to doing that and herding. There was an abundance of food everywhere on Earth and humans can eat practically anything.

Scavenging doesn't take a lot and humans used to have a lot of free time because of that. There was even time for art and recreation, history says. Farming, one the other hand, is an enormous amount of work. It takes a whole year to plant the crops, wait for them to grow, harvest them, feed animals, move them, and ready food for winter. There's a lot more stuff to do and the whole process is insane.

Agriculture appeared nearly at the same time all around the world. There's North American corn, South American potatoes, African yams, and Asian rice. So much stuff to eat. What were you thinking, humans?

There was lots of time wasting with wars and farming until the industrial revolution slowly forced farming out of everyone's lives. Right now, the amount of farmers is still decreasing, only the poorest countries have a high percentage of farmers who have to feed themselves.

 

Right now, the human we imagine cannot exist without tools. It everyone's minds, even the most ancient ones had sticks to hunt. Going back in time, the one with a stick seems like the most basic natural human possible, but the human with a stick and one without are two different beings.

We have a style of hunting that does not rely on tools at all. I keep mentioning our sweat glands and reliance on legs. We can outran any animal on the planet because we can regulate our body heat for running better than any other animal. As long as the animal is scared of us, a group of humans can chase it until it gets tired, and it will get tired first. Well, right now we're lazier then our ancestors but it's possible to get back to that level at almost any age.

One day, with the power of imagination, the stick became more. Another day we saw the fields of golden grain. We saw the world for what it is and what it could be. Places we could go and things we could have. More and more, the sticks began to change.

The human is a material being but the tool is not. It's not the stick, it's the immaterial part of us that takes us to new places and leaves the world of animals behind. It's not the brain either, soon we will be able to redesign that, too.

 

Science is the most perfect representation of humanity's spirituality. It's more than a body of knowledge, it's a way of thinking. The way of sceptically interrogating universe. We want to know, we want to see, and we're going right for it.

 

[Silent Answers]

You forgot to factor in natural disaster ie. the great flood and previous ice ages that early man had to get through... Plus the regular droughts...that's what really got us wanting to stock up on food too.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Silent Answers

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[thelerner]

We cannot run down most wild animals, a great runner can but at a heavy cost of calories. Burn through 1000's of calories to run down an animal, then you have to butcher it, transport the carcass, factor in no refrigeration and a successful hunt is no picnic. That versus the long road of domesticating animals, so you either herd them or fence'em in, but once done, you have greater control.

 

Control is nice. You have security. Knowledge is nice, you learn to make things better. Still you don't want things or ones inventions to control you. To me the problem isn't technology its that humans tend to overshoot and miss the sweet spot. A place of balance where tech and time, art work and leisure find a proper balance.

 

That sweet spot will have technology, schools and study. A bigger part is greater commitment to community. Work, party, art. We have the tools, there's just a lack of leadership. There are good models out there in the planned community movement.

Edited August 24, 2014 by thelerner

[Nungali]

Sooooooooooo

 

I started thinking that humans might not be a part of the natural world

 

Okay .... but we are ... because the natural world created and birthed us.

 

 

It all started with agriculture. Humans could have managed just fine with scavenging and hunting things. Agriculture was invented for some reason and people started growing their own crops. Realistically, there aren't any real benefits to doing that and herding. There was an abundance of food everywhere on Earth and humans can eat practically anything.

 

There were 2 major dry periods and drops in temperature which some postulate lead to the development of agriculture and mass migrations in the Central Asian / Middle east area. What you postulate depends on concepts of herding and how it was done .

 

Scavenging doesn't take a lot and humans used to have a lot of free time because of that.

 

Just scavenging and you would starve probably ... hunter gatherer societies are drawing on a wide range of skill sets and knowledge to be able to survive well. However when this is all working, in Australia, in a good place and season, traditionally ( traditional indigenous lifestyle) 2-4 hours per day for food, hunting, shelter, etc ... the rest for whatever; family, relaxing and most importantly, cultural activities.

 

There was even time for art and recreation, history says. Farming, one the other hand, is an enormous amount of work. It takes a whole year to plant the crops, wait for them to grow, harvest them, feed animals, move them, and ready food for winter. There's a lot more stuff to do and the whole process is insane.

 

Some anthropologists claim moving into agriculture was the worst mistake man has made.

 

Agriculture appeared nearly at the same time all around the world. There's North American corn, South American potatoes, African yams, and Asian rice. So much stuff to eat. What were you thinking, humans?

 

Survival during adversity .

 

There was lots of time wasting with wars and farming until the industrial revolution slowly forced farming out of everyone's lives. Right now, the amount of farmers is still decreasing, only the poorest countries have a high percentage of farmers who have to feed themselves.

 

Right now, the human we imagine cannot exist without tools. It everyone's minds, even the most ancient ones had sticks to hunt. Going back in time, the one with a stick seems like the most basic natural human possible, but the human with a stick and one without are two different beings.

 

Two different species, I would venture.

 

 

We have a style of hunting that does not rely on tools at all. I keep mentioning our sweat glands and reliance on legs. We can outran any animal on the planet because we can regulate our body heat for running better than any other animal. As long as the animal is scared of us, a group of humans can chase it until it gets tired, and it will get tired first. Well, right now we're lazier then our ancestors but it's possible to get back to that level at almost any age.

 

Oh, please come hunting with us one day. I would love to watch you run down a a red bull kangaroo and when it tires first you can go in there and hand wrestle him and kill him with your bare hands .

 

 

[ check the right jab @ 1:30 ! ]

 

One day, with the power of imagination, the stick became more. Another day we saw the fields of golden grain. We saw the world for what it is and what it could be. Places we could go and things we could have. More and more, the sticks began to change.

The human is a material being but the tool is not. It's not the stick, it's the immaterial part of us that takes us to new places and leaves the world of animals behind. It's not the brain either, soon we will be able to redesign that, too.

 

Animals use sticks ... its not just that ... its the interaction between the stick, or brain / mind and human 'imagination' that is what makes us different and in a different 'class' to other animals.

 

Science is the most perfect representation of humanity's spirituality. It's more than a body of knowledge, it's a way of thinking. The way of sceptically interrogating universe. We want to know, we want to see, and we're going right for it.

 

Except the faculty that you describe is not limited to science ... its part of the human perspective ... science has narrowed the view, in some cases, to pure materialism and thus relegated 'spirituality' to a sub-set of 'mind' or imagination in its process of 'rational' dualism. The 'way of thinking' in hunter gatherer societies is totally different.

[Protector]

Once the kangaroo is scared of me and there's ten of me, no kangaroo will make it out alive

muahahaaaaaa

 

What narrows the world view is religion. The imaginary world is bigger then the real one, but we still don't know everything about it. Religion gives answers to things it has no way of knowing, then it claims credit when science finally finds an answer. Even taobums is not safe, I recall threads like that even around here.

 

 

The usual spirituality stuff is waaaaaaay on the left there

[Tennoryou]

The dictionary is already on your side, Protector. "the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations"

I completely disagree with this definition, though. We are very much a part of nature, as much as anything else is. I see nature as everything that is in the universe, personally. How could we possibly be separate? A modern city is as natural as a birds nest. We may not be the best evolved species on the planet, not by a long shot. We have a really hard time hitting that "sweet spot", but hey, such is the burden of being the first seeds of the universe being sentiently aware on this plane in this neck of the galactic woods.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

An interesting micro-macro look at our need to accept nature is Rob Dunn's "The Wild Life of Our Bodies." He talks about how the necessity of the body is to have bacterias and parasites inside of it as its natural state of health.

 

"We just take a swab, swab their bellybutton and then, we grow the microbes from the bellybutton out on agar. But the truth is that most of the species that you find in your bellybutton, Ira, or anybody else finds, we don't know what they eat. And so the only way we can see those is by looking at them genetically. And so in doing that, I mean, just in the first 90 people we've looked at in terms of which species are present, we've found 1,400 species of bacteria, 600 of which don't match up with species we know so far."

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/22/138610583/exploring-the-wild-life-of-our-bodies

 

 

I think it's safe to say that bacteria live on us in the same way we live on the earth. Like the Dao teaches, if we have too many desires we lose sight of Dao. Humans feed on the foliage and other creatures on the earth. Sometimes we use use the raw material of the earth, like rocks and oil (which is essentially the digested matter of the earth, expelled through naturally occurring oil geysers. In the same way as bacteria on our bodies, if the guest moves away from Dao, they begin to destroy the host. So we must be careful that we are not too clever in trying to evade the limitations of our "dependent origination."

[Nungali]

Once the kangaroo is scared of me and there's ten of me, no kangaroo will make it out alive

 

The only get scared when you pick up a stick or projectile ( hey man ... they been around longer than we have ) ... you make a brave claim ... thats a good hunter , so marks there but how are you going to kill it? A choke hold ? A neck break? I suppose the others could just pile on and lie on the legs and stuff .

 

I would really like to watch it ... I am sure some of the roo hunters I know would love to watch that too ... heck! They might even pay to watch that ... look me up if you come over here ... we will take bets too - I might even invite this logger I know who swears he was attacked and driven off by a clutch of sugar gliders

 

 

if that works out, maybe try some wild boar next ? ... no sticks remember !

 

 

 

 

muahahaaaaaa

 

They got sticks !

 

What narrows the world view is religion. The imaginary world is bigger then the real one, but we still don't know everything about it. Religion gives answers to things it has no way of knowing, then it claims credit when science finally finds an answer. Even taobums is not safe, I recall threads like that even around here.

 

 

The usual spirituality stuff is waaaaaaay on the left there

 

apples and oranges : science and religion : yen and yang (I just threw that last one in for effect )

 

perhaps even : imagination and certainty ... what if all those stick men up there are just looking at the same issues ... but in different ways with different faculties.

[Nungali]

and really ... I ask .... how can I resist posting this

 

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Protector]

I have deep faith that math does exist

 

"muahaha" part was a part of the kangaroo massacre proposition

 

I think I'd go for the eyes and then start landing cheap shots... ANYWAY, back on point

 

We're born with two sets of teeth and once the second set is worn out, that's it for that. The whole body wears out like that, we're here just to reproduce and help the species as a whole. Every single thing wears out and changes(taiji yada yada Taoist site, everybody gets the point)

Gonna speak for myself, since I've heard the opposite side around here, but I don't want to be controlled by nature. My body is awesome and all, but it work perfectly only until nature says it's time to die. Scientists are working to stop aging and transhumanists want to evolve past being human and maybe become cyborgs. Some critics say that they want to become gods, and know what? Sounds fun, let's be gods. Stick people are better then non-stick people, because they're not dead.

We can influence nature and soon enough, we could control it

Muahahahahaha

 

 

 

Science and religion are not on the same level. The yang to religion's yin(because it's evil) is politics. Both of them are made to control people. I would also compare it to business, you need to convince someone that they need religion or else it won't sell.

[zanshin]

Engineering people could go very wrong. Would be terrific if we could splice away stuff that sucks like sickle cell disease and ALS. But would we splice away disorders they give meds to kids for now like ADD and ODD. Nice conforming cyber robots. No more need for religion to control people with this sort of institutional capability.

[Nungali]

It isnt going to work, the physical immortality thing : there seems to be a fair bit of 'not embracing death' around here.

 

If we were living in a more natural state, very close to nature, our 'survival' would not need to insist on the physical so much. Its more of a group consciousness thing ... a chain of being; ancestors and descendants, thats where immortality lies ... on the earth / physical and spiritual levels.

[Nungali]

Because what they think is happening is ... cancer is the system's defence against being too old - aged cells. We are supposed to die young to increase the number of cycles each cultural unit (person) has, thats to do with development, changes, mutations, evolution. You stop the units rapidly dying, you are fighting a base drive mechanism of the whole, not just species, but all species.

 

Thats going to be taking on a lot more than a kangaroo ... with or without a stick. The more we increase age, the higher cancer and other nasty near endemic diseases will occur.

 

I would rather die younger than get an extra 20 years of operations and disease, replacements parts and .....

 

Its alright to just .... die ... everyone else seems to manage it