Horse stance vs tiger stance

[hagar]

Anybody here doing horse stance training?

 

I was given transmission into a particular form of Tiger stance by one of my teachers way back, and started doing it quite consistently now (once a day)

 

I even found a way to do it without passing out; taking out my Iphone and watching motivational videos, and adapting the stance to last the length of the video. I´m up to 9 min. now, and have allready felt alot of benefit.

 

Weird thing is my leg muscles are getting smaller (!). This may be due to burning calories, or to the opposite of muscle hypotrohy, I have no idea.

 

What i wonder though is if anyone here knows the difference in effect of conventional horse stance and tiger stance (more like a downhill ski racer position)

 

Also, what signs of overdoing it should I be on the lookout for?

 

h

[soaring crane]

Can you find an image online demonstrating tiger stance the way you're doing it?

[hagar]

no cannot, atleast on Google. But funny as it may seem, it,s almost like this, only with hands down in front of legs, and 45 degree angle on knees...

[soaring crane]

cool, haven't encountered that before. Crouching Tiger, I'd say. Ready to leap. Extremely yang state, no? Is your weight on the heels or more toward the front/yongchuan? Is your bck as rounded as the skiier's?

[hagar]

Back rounded, and wheight infront while clawing the ground. Index finger and thumbs connected loosely, and relaxed position.

 

I´m just trying to figure the effect and how not to overdo it. it´s extremely uplifting, but I wonder about using too much force.

 

h

[soaring crane]

I hope someone with direct experience enters the thread for you but I think it's very unusual. Is it for martial training? Sounds like it to me, except for the rounded back. Definitely a yang-heavy posture. Think about it. When we get ready to leap into actionn, we shift our weight to the balls of the feet, like the 'get set' stage of 'on your marks, get set, go!'. And you're setting yourself into that stage and that energy. Your pulse should rise and your awareness should expand, along with your level of tension. So, as possible negative effects I'd say things that are associated with giddiness, tension and stress.

 

You called it 'uplifting', which fits my expectations and I'd say don't let it lift you up too far and be sure to balance it out with more 'standard' zhan zhuang standing/horse stance.

 

But like I indicated, I'm just thinking outloudly. Try to keep the thread alive, I'd like to read other people's take on it.

 

It's interesting that your back doesnt give you trouble, by the way. Also, the iPhone idea is clever. You put it on the floor, I imagine :-)

[Taoist Texts]

Back rounded, and wheight infront while clawing the ground. Index finger and thumbs connected loosely, and relaxed position.

 

I´m just trying to figure the effect and how not to overdo it. it´s extremely uplifting, but I wonder about using too much force.

 

h

if you put any intent into it , you are overdoing it.

[soaring crane]

if you put any intent into it , you are overdoing it.

I believe hagar is experienced enough to know that, or to have a well-founded approach regarding intention.

[hagar]

Actually, I find it smoother and less straining than the contentional horse stance. However. I am looking at how to "cool" it down abit. For me it it feels like the earth energy is activated. It also burns alot of sluggish energy away.

My key issue is how to keep the pulse down.

 

Additional question; a few posts I´ve seen in Wushu forums state that there´s different phases; first you end up depleting your "surface strength", where you feel you have less strength before a more soft and subtle energy takes over. Seems to make sense, yet i wonder about actual "overtraining".

 

h

[hagar]

cool, haven't encountered that before. Crouching Tiger, I'd say. Ready to leap. Extremely yang state, no? Is your weight on the heels or more toward the front/yongchuan? Is your bck as rounded as the skiier's?

Pretty yang indeed.

Its suppose to work in the same way as standing with hands extended over the head for half an hour or more. Sooner or later, the true energy takes over and you can stand like that for ever. I probably are looking for some moral support through the pain.

 

h

[soaring crane]

Actually, I find it smoother and less straining than the contentional horse stance. However. I am looking at how to "cool" it down abit. For me it it feels like the earth energy is activated. It also burns alot of sluggish energy away.

My key issue is how to keep the pulse down.

 

I think those goals would simply be working against the posture and it's probably better to a) don't hold this one for more than a few minutes and have another posture to balance it out. It could take years for this posture to 'cool down' for you and by that time you'll either be on to something else, or dealing with side-effects (again, these are just thought-bubbles on my part, based on some personal experience but not directly with your posture).

 

To reduce the over-yang condition of this particular posture, maybe try to make adjustments so that your weight is settled about 60% on your heels(?). But again, that's fighting the natural tendency of your Crouching Tiger and, I dunno, maybe he bites.

[Taoist Texts]

I believe hagar is experienced enough to know that, or to have a well-founded approach regarding intention.

oh, i am sure he does.

 

Hey Hagar does your stance look like this?

 

 

 

[ViscountValmont]

Most are unaware of the different types of muscles they can cultivate. There is toning, which is light, rapid contractions- this gives good definition but no strength, and an endurance for quick successive movements. Then there is endurance training, like long distance running- this is defined mostly by its cardiovascular quality increase. Then there is strength training, like Strongest Man challenges that are lifting semi-truck tires and such. There is body building, which is lots of toning, but also work that increases the "belly" and size of the muscle, but only gaining superficial strength. Then there is fast twitch muscle- this is training the ligaments/tendons/nerves and their corresponding muscles to contract as hard and as quickly as possible from a relaxed state (This is cultivated by Internal Martial Artists), and a subtle, refined control over them.

 

Then there is what you're doing- Increasing the number of fibers inside the muscle, and compacting what is already there. You are creating a more tightly packed, denser muscle. This muscle is designed for holding its contraction for long periods. Notice this is quite different than any other muscle function previously mentioned. It is a distinct form of muscle/training, and it is heavily cultivated by martial artists of all kinds. The endurance of this muscle has further degrees of endurance than the previous muscle types, and it has the added benefit of being far more capable of taking repeated strikes from an opponent... meaning you get more bang for your buck all around in terms of effort and energy, time used to train, and the result itself creating multiple benefits, rather than just a targeted one.

 

Keep it up.

[hagar]

oh, i am sure he does.

 

Hey Hagar does your stance look like this?

 

 

 

 

Well, it´s not like that. Much more like a horse jockey, or downhill skier, as mentioned. Much lower. =)

[hagar]

Most are unaware of the different types of muscles they can cultivate. There is toning, which is light, rapid contractions- this gives good definition but no strength, and an endurance for quick successive movements. Then there is endurance training, like long distance running- this is defined mostly by its cardiovascular quality increase. Then there is strength training, like Strongest Man challenges that are lifting semi-truck tires and such. There is body building, which is lots of toning, but also work that increases the "belly" and size of the muscle, but only gaining superficial strength. Then there is fast twitch muscle- this is training the ligaments/tendons/nerves and their corresponding muscles to contract as hard and as quickly as possible from a relaxed state (This is cultivated by Internal Martial Artists), and a subtle, refined control over them.

 

Then there is what you're doing- Increasing the number of fibers inside the muscle, and compacting what is already there. You are creating a more tightly packed, denser muscle. This muscle is designed for holding its contraction for long periods. Notice this is quite different than any other muscle function previously mentioned. It is a distinct form of muscle/training, and it is heavily cultivated by martial artists of all kinds. The endurance of this muscle has further degrees of endurance than the previous muscle types, and it has the added benefit of being far more capable of taking repeated strikes from an opponent... meaning you get more bang for your buck all around in terms of effort and energy, time used to train, and the result itself creating multiple benefits, rather than just a targeted one.

 

Keep it up.

 

Gracias.

 

Probably why I seem to lose muscle size, but increase strength.

 

It´s good, and feels like something weird is happening to my hormone system as well. It feels like my skin on my legs is "cleaner" or something, and for some strange reason it feels like my clothes are more comfortable (not due to the fit IMO).

Maybe just practice, and see where it takes me...

 

It is also impossible to do it without retention.

[hagar]

This is inspiring and funny btw

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJMHXQmeITg

[soaring crane]

 

Then there is what you're doing- Increasing the number of fibers inside the muscle, and compacting what is already there. You are creating a more tightly packed, denser muscle.

 

but this is true for all static, standing practices, no? What about the specific posture Hagar is describing?

 

This is inspiring and funny btw

 

haha nice They've all got their feet turned outward, which makes a world of difference, I can do that a long long time. Feet parallel is far more challlenging.

[joeblast]

increasing the number of fibers got the comedy skit going this morning

[Brian]

increasing the number of fibers got the comedy skit going this morning

I got a kick out of the "superficial strength" thing...

[ViscountValmont]

Is it funny because you apparently don't understand it? I'm going to go with yes... As increase in fibers is EXACTLY what muscle growth is. You may want to know what the fuck you're talking about before you laugh at something.

 

Superficial strength refers to the fact that, though the muscle appears to be much stronger as per it visually looking better, it doesn't actually gain much strength overall as compared to the yield of other specifically targeted strength training exercises. This is why body builders aren't pulling semi-trucks.

 

*Edit- You whining babies. There, everyone happy? How's it feel to win by exerting force of rule rather than of reason?

 

 

Yes Soaring Crane, increase in fibrous tissue occurs with all muscle growth. And yes, this process of increased density happens with all static, standing exercises like this. Deep Horse Stances (yes, feet directly straight ahead, not angled outwards, haha) and the like all create more dense muscle.

Edited August 26, 2014 by ViscountValmont

[Brian]

Your blatant rules violation will likely be dealt with soon enough.

 

In the meantime, though, let me ask -- have you ever actually spent time with a serious bodybuilder or tried it yourself? The question is really rhetorical, of course...

[hagar]

With a vain attempt to keep the thread on topic, I break my own rule of posting vids of myself, to actually show an example of the Tiger stance;

 

Edited August 26, 2014 by hagar

[soaring crane]

With a vain attempt to keep the thread on topic, I break my own rule of posting vids of myself, to actually show an example of the Tiger stance;

 

That was a good idea, Hagar! It doesn't look nearly as extreme as I was picturing it. Your back isn't rounded like the skier's (good). I'd almost put that into a "squat" category. You should be able to shift your weight to your heels by letting your butt sink lower and leaning a little less, and that should in turn calm your pulse a little. I would at least try it just to see how it feels.

 

2 Questions -- can you breathe comfortably? How do you hold your head when not making a demo video? I think it shouldn't be any different than standard wuji position and not lifted the way you did a couple times in the video.

 

Gonna give it a try :-)

[hagar]

First of all, I find this position way more meditative than the horse stance, and I focus on the space between my index and thumb, which is touching and creating an "o". In addition, I "claw" the ground with my toes.

 

I do shift the wheight back and forth abit, yet I find looking ahead actually eases the "pressure" building up.

 

I was told to hold the knees in 45 yet not horizontal.

 

Try to keep the breath in the LDT, IMO

 

Thanks for the advice

 

h

[thelerner]

On Michael Winn's Fundamental II DVD he has a chi gung series. One movement is Crossing the Ocean, you start out positioned like a swimmer about to start a race, very tiger stance like (I think) and then you straighten out while bringing the arms towards and behind you (like your paddling). After straightening and leaning forward you return to the low 'divers' crouch, repeat.

 

Its very good for the back flexing it forward and backwards as you 'Cross the Ocean'.

 

edit> Your tiger stance is what I thought it was. So the chi gung movement is much like paddling forward while going from standing into tiger stance. During standing you push your hips a little forward.

Edited August 27, 2014 by thelerner