Transforming Lines and the 3 Coin Method

[Uroboros]

Hello, all!

 

I have a question for those who practice divination with the I Ching, especially those who utilize the 3 coin method.

 

When you get mostly, or all transforming lines, how do you go about utilizing them?

 

edit-

 

When looking to the text for each changing line, how do you decide which one/s to go with?

Edited August 26, 2014 by Uroboros

[Andrei]

The coins have two faces, one is 2 pointd the other is 3 points.

You toss them an you count the points.

 

2+2+2=6 big Yin transforms to Yang

2+2+3=7 small Yang still needs to mature

2+3+3=8 small Yin still needs to mature

3+3+3=9 big Yang transforms to Yin

 

if you have:

6,6,7,8,9,7

this means:

 

starting transformation hexagram 53

__ stays the same

__ will turn to - -

- - stays the same

__ stays the same

- - will turn to __

- - will turn to __

 

ending transformation hexagram 26

__

- -

- -

__

__

__

 

"Infiltrating" leads to "Accumulating Wisdom". Anyway it is a process, a dynamic flow of energy, not a static calculation.

I just invented these numbers without tossing any coins but maybe Yi Jing is trying to say something to me

[Uroboros]

The coins have two faces, one is 2 pointd the other is 3 points.

You toss them an you count the points.

 

2+2+2=6 big Yin transforms to Yang

2+2+3=7 small Yang still needs to mature

2+3+3=8 small Yin still needs to mature

3+3+3=9 big Yang transforms to Yin

 

if you have:

6,6,7,8,9,7

this means:

 

starting transformation hexagram 53

__ stays the same

__ will turn to - -

- - stays the same

__ stays the same

- - will turn to __

- - will turn to __

 

ending transformation hexagram 26

__

- -

- -

__

__

__

 

"Infiltrating" leads to "Accumulating Wisdom". Anyway it is a process, a dynamic flow of energy, not a static calculation.

I just invented these numbers without tossing any coins but maybe Yi Jing is trying to say something to me

 

Since the odds are likely with the coin method that you will get changing lines, do you consider the related hexagram to be valid in all divination's?

 

When looking at the text for each changing line, do you look at all of changing lines? If not, how do you decide?

[Andrei]

I am not expert in yi jing, I only used it twice in my life, and each time was frightening accurate. But then I figured it out that I kind of knowing already the divination answer before tossing the coins so I decided I never use it again. In my opinion the divination is just bringing the awarness of energy flow at the intelectual level from the heart-feelings level. So I consider the reading valid, I just don't understand what you mean by "how to decide". There is nothing to be decided, it is just telling you how the energy of a particular situation will change or how two energies interact with each other. It is an energetic pattern which is like a fractal, it has the same pattern in small things as well as in big things, and it will always repeat. You look at the text in a comprehensive manner, everything is related to everything (I am referring here to the lines in the two hexagrams). You can have also only one hexagram which is showing a static energy that does not change but in my opinion this will change too just very slow, compared to the situation when you have two hexagrams that show a very dynamic situation when the energy is changing quickly. So the only thing that I retain from Yi Jing is that everything changes.

[Apech]

I use all changing lines. But there are systems which chose one 'ruling' line to read for the reading.

 

You can also use each one independently to generate several transform hexs. But it gets quite complicated when you do that.

 

If you read Stephen Karcher http://www.amazon.com/Total-I-Ching-Myths-Change/dp/074993980X there's a good introduction on how to generate a set of hexagrams from the original for in depth readings. I'm not so keep on some of his shamanic interpretations but it's interesting non the less.

[Uroboros]

Sometimes when I do a divination, I feel that the transformed hexagram is not so accurate. Actually, a few times the transformed hexagram was way off. The current one was not, though

 

Has anyone else had this experience?

[Apech]

Sometimes when I do a divination, I feel that the transformed hexagram is not so accurate. Actually, a few times the transformed hexagram was way off. The current one was not, though

 

Has anyone else had this experience?

 

No, what do you mean by not so accurate? Can you explain a bit more.

[Uroboros]

No, what do you mean by not so accurate? Can you explain a bit more.

 

Meaning that the situation at hand being divined did not develop in any way like the developing hexagram.

 

The original one was spot on. The one that was made from the changing lines, not so much.

 

Make sense?

[Apech]

Meaning that the situation at hand being divined did not develop in any way like the developing hexagram.

 

The original one was spot on. The one that was made from the changing lines, not so much.

 

Make sense?

 

 

Ok yes that makes sense. Stephen Karcher in his book Total I ching (Myths for Change) says the ji gua which he calls the 'Relating Figure' is not always the future, it can be one of number of things which are to do with how the subject (the questioner) relate to the primary hex.

 

eg.

 

- future potential

-over riding concerns

-a warning

-a goal

-a desired outcome

-a past situation which has brought you to the present situation

 

so you cannot rely on the ida that the primary hex leads in time to the transform hex. Its more subtle than that.

 

The best way, I think, to approach this is, to read the transform hex post, see what image(s) it evokes, then try to relate the key idea behind those images back to yourself or whoever it is you may be asking the oracle for. Try to feel what the questioner is bringing to the situation which might have an impact on how everything works out.

[beyonder]

Hello, all!

 

I have a question for those who practice divination with the I Ching, especially those who utilize the 3 coin method.

 

When you get mostly, or all transforming lines, how do you go about utilizing them?

 

edit-

 

When looking to the text for each changing line, how do you decide which one/s to go with?

You have to understand the meaning of the places for the individual lines and how they relate to eachother as well as the core trigrams. There are multiple systems at work when casting a transforming hex; on one level, the whole hexagram changes. On another, the top and bottom trigrams change; on another the core trigrams change and finally, the lines relate to eachother individually. This is on top of the usual commentary. To understand the flow and the changes, one has to be familiar with the symbology of the core trigrams, and how these relate:

 

Creative (but also male and/or active)

Receptive (but also female and/or passive)

 

Wind (but also movement)

Fire (but also attachement)

Lake (but also happiness)

 

Thunder (but also shock)

Water (but also the unknown and danger)

Mountain (but also stillness)

 

The bottom trigram and the bottom core trigram relate to the past and/or the present. The top trigram and the top core trigram relate to movement and/or the future.

 

Let's take a look at this stuff in action:

 

I cast hexagram 37, Family, with a moving line on 4. My question was "What's a good question to use as an example on the internetforum?"

 

The reading of line 4, hex 37:

 

Six in the fourth place means:

She is the treasure of the house.

Great good fortune.

 

It is upon the woman of the house that the well-being of the family depends. Well-being prevails when expenditures and income are soundly balanced. This leads to great good fortune. In the sphere of public life, this line refers to the faithful steward whose measures further the general welfare.

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#37

 

The top trigram is wind, the bottom is fire. The central trigrams are fire (top) and water (bottom).

The top trigram becomes the creative, while the bottom remains fire; the central trigrams change from fire to creative (top) and from water to wind (bottom). So:

 

Wind (fire) and fire (water) become creative (creative) and fire (wind). The hex as a whole changes from 37 to 13. Hexagram 37 isn't just about family, but also about the internal relationships in any community. Hexagram 13 speaks of the gathering of people. As can be noted, the I Ching didn't just provide an answer to my question, but provided a commentary on what's happening and going to happen. On the whole, it commented that my actions are positive and are going to have a positive effect (on the taobums). We'll have to see about those creative forces affecting other folks though (that's what it says with the moving trigrams).

 

This is what you need to read when casting, not the texts for the lines. Those are comments pertaining to the situation, not the situation in itself, nor the movement. They provide clarity but aren't the core focus.

Edited August 29, 2014 by beyonder

[Nikolai1]

I think trying to understand more than a couple of changing lines can be very confusing. Best just to focus on the general texts for the two hexagrams as a whole to begin with...then with the passage of time the individual lines make more more sense.

 

Normally the primary hexagram is the most salient... but the more changing lines there are, the more you must look at the secondary hexagram

[Aasin]

Do you meditate, practice Tai Chi, or anything along those lines before you consult the I Ching. Having the right mindset before using it is equally important for getting a good response.

 

The changing lines as some have said are just further guidance into what was already said. You should focus more on what the lines said first before looking into the changing lines. The way I like to look at is is that the changing lines are like a second helping at dinner. The main meal was what one primarily enjoyed. The second helping was smaller, and is just used to get rid of any more stomach pangs.

[Taomeow]

I am not expert in yi jing, I only used it twice in my life, and each time was frightening accurate. But then I figured it out that I kind of knowing already the divination answer before tossing the coins so I decided I never use it again. In my opinion the divination is just bringing the awarness of energy flow at the intelectual level from the heart-feelings level.

 

Yes, one can use an electronic microscope to hammer in a nail. But that's not its primary function. How to use it to see into the invisible is its primary function, and for it to function this way, you need to adjust a screw here, a lever there... One way to avoid having the I Ching reiterate to you what your subconscious is prompting your hand to transmit to the coins is to shake them in a metal container (this is traditional) so that the container prevents your personal micro-impulses from influencing the outcome. And, also traditionally, you can ask someone else to throw the coins for you, someone with no personal interest in the outcome you get.

 

All these, however, are precautions for the initial stages I think -- though I still use a metal container, because it has the eight immortals on it and is cool, and also to be on the safe side of my own unconscious -- but generally, once you have developed a relationship with the oracle, she will know how to overrule your impulses and give you the real answer no matter what you want or expect to hear -- even, if you are not asking the real question of the moment, an answer to the question you should have asked instead. This happened to me many times when I needed to know something important but didn't know I did and asked something unimportant. In hindsight it became crystal clear what the question I should have been asking had been. Now, if I get an answer I can't understand, I re-ask: what do I really need to concern myself with at this time? And then it makes sense.

 

Also, I've asked about things I definitely couldn't know about -- or got predictions about things I definitely couldn't know were coming -- so I have no reasons to believe I'm pulling the answers out of my own psyche. (Incidentally, I'm not one of those people who believe they make all the choices in the universe themselves, not one of the you-are-my-thoughts almighty gods of all-that-is... When I point a finger at the moon, I don't imagine I'm projecting the moon out of my finger.)

 

And to the OP: If you get too many changing lines, it's a sign that something is in disarray, that the qi of the moment is badly entangled -- either in the subject of inquiry at the moment, or in your own life at the moment. If I get more than two changing lines, I start looking around to see which areas of my life and environment, whether physical or non-, need uncluttering. Once some order is restored within and without, I ask again.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Taomeow

[Uroboros]

 

Yes, one can use an electronic microscope to hammer in a nail. But that's not its primary function. How to use it to see into the invisible is its primary function, and for it to function this way, you need to adjust a screw here, a lever there... One way to avoid having the I Ching reiterate to you what your subconscious is prompting your hand to transmit to the coins is to shake them in a metal container (this is traditional) so that the container prevents your personal micro-impulses from influencing the outcome. And, also traditionally, you can ask someone else to throw the coins for you, someone with no personal interested in the outcome you get.

 

All these, however, are precautions for the initial stages I think -- though I still use a metal container, because it has the eight immortals on it and is cool, and also to be on the safe side of my own unconscious -- but generally, once you have developed a relationship with the oracle, she will know how to overrule your impulses and give you the real answer no matter what you want or expect to hear -- even, if you are not asking the real question of the moment, an answer to the question you should have asked instead. This happened to me many times when I needed to know something important but didn't know I did and asked something unimportant. In hindsight it became crystal clear what the question I should have been asking had been. Now, if I get an answer I can't understand, I re-ask: what do I really need to concern myself with at this time? And then it makes sense.

 

Also, I've asked about things I definitely couldn't know about -- or got predictions about things I definitely couldn't know were coming -- so I have no reasons to believe I'm pulling the answers out of my own psyche. (Incidentally, I'm not one of those people who believe they make all the choices in the universe themselves, not one of the you-are-my-thoughts almighty gods of all-that-is... When I point a finger at the moon, I don't imagine I'm projecting the moon out of my finger.)

 

And to the OP: If you get too many changing lines, it's a sign that something is in disarray, that the qi of the moment is badly entangled -- either in the subject of inquiry at the moment, or in your own life at the moment. If I get more than two changing lines, I start looking around to see which areas of my life and environment, whether physical or non-, need uncluttering. Once some order is restored within and without, I ask again.

 

Interesting. I will start using a metal container to see if it helps.

 

Ah, yes. Disarray. There is quite a bit of that at the moment, hence my desire to understand how to go about working with it in the best manner.

 

Taomeow, what do you consider the transformed hexagram to be about?

[Uroboros]

Ok yes that makes sense. Stephen Karcher in his book Total I ching (Myths for Change) says the ji gua which he calls the 'Relating Figure' is not always the future, it can be one of number of things which are to do with how the subject (the questioner) relate to the primary hex.

 

eg.

 

- future potential

-over riding concerns

-a warning

-a goal

-a desired outcome

-a past situation which has brought you to the present situation

 

so you cannot rely on the ida that the primary hex leads in time to the transform hex. Its more subtle than that.

 

The best way, I think, to approach this is, to read the transform hex post, see what image(s) it evokes, then try to relate the key idea behind those images back to yourself or whoever it is you may be asking the oracle for. Try to feel what the questioner is bringing to the situation which might have an impact on how everything works out.

 

That is very helpful, Apech!

 

I will see if those interpretations help me connect with the message. I will also try what you recommend.

 

Thanks!

[Uroboros]

You have to understand the meaning of the places for the individual lines and how they relate to eachother as well as the core trigrams. There are multiple systems at work when casting a transforming hex; on one level, the whole hexagram changes. On another, the top and bottom trigrams change; on another the core trigrams change and finally, the lines relate to eachother individually. This is on top of the usual commentary. To understand the flow and the changes, one has to be familiar with the symbology of the core trigrams, and how these relate:

 

Creative (but also male and/or active)

Receptive (but also female and/or passive)

 

Wind (but also movement)

Fire (but also attachement)

Lake (but also happiness)

 

Thunder (but also shock)

Water (but also the unknown and danger)

Mountain (but also stillness)

 

The bottom trigram and the bottom core trigram relate to the past and/or the present. The top trigram and the top core trigram relate to movement and/or the future.

 

Let's take a look at this stuff in action:

 

I cast hexagram 37, Family, with a moving line on 4. My question was "What's a good question to use as an example on the internetforum?"

 

The reading of line 4, hex 37:

 

Six in the fourth place means:

She is the treasure of the house.

Great good fortune.

 

It is upon the woman of the house that the well-being of the family depends. Well-being prevails when expenditures and income are soundly balanced. This leads to great good fortune. In the sphere of public life, this line refers to the faithful steward whose measures further the general welfare.

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#37

 

The top trigram is wind, the bottom is fire. The central trigrams are fire (top) and water (bottom).

The top trigram becomes the creative, while the bottom remains fire; the central trigrams change from fire to creative (top) and from water to wind (bottom). So:

 

Wind (fire) and fire (water) become creative (creative) and fire (wind). The hex as a whole changes from 37 to 13. Hexagram 37 isn't just about family, but also about the internal relationships in any community. Hexagram 13 speaks of the gathering of people. As can be noted, the I Ching didn't just provide an answer to my question, but provided a commentary on what's happening and going to happen. On the whole, it commented that my actions are positive and are going to have a positive effect (on the taobums). We'll have to see about those creative forces affecting other folks though (that's what it says with the moving trigrams).

 

This is what you need to read when casting, not the texts for the lines. Those are comments pertaining to the situation, not the situation in itself, nor the movement. They provide clarity but aren't the core focus.

 

I have been working on learning more about the trigrams and how they relate/ intermesh. It is definitely helping in understanding the messages from the I Ching.

 

The biggest difficulty/ task for me at the moment is understanding how the yin and yang lines work together to create something. Just utilizing the lines to read/ feel the situation is tough.

[Taomeow]

Interesting. I will start using a metal container to see if it helps.

 

Ah, yes. Disarray. There is quite a bit of that at the moment, hence my desire to understand how to go about working with it in the best manner.

 

Taomeow, what do you consider the transformed hexagram to be about?

 

The transformed hexagram is the expected outcome of your following the course described by the changing line or lines of the original hexagram. You are effectively told by the changing line, "this is what you're getting into." And then the new hexagram explains, "if you get into that, this is what you are to expect as a result." Often you get a choice how to act. You are likely to get what the new hexagram says if you follow the course suggested by the changing lines, so if you don't want this outcome, don't follow that course, and if you do, do.

 

Sometimes, however, it describes the expected outcome of the events that are set to follow a particular course which you don't control with your actions. In this case, you don't get a choice, you get a forecast. This, again, can be good or bad or neutral, and you prepare accordingly. You may not be able to change the outcome, but you will be better equipped to face it. It's like the weather forecast -- if they say, chance of rain today is zero percent, then based on this forecast you don't drag along your umbrella. If they say, an eighty percent chance of a heavy snowfall, then based on this likelihood you part with your flip-flops and wear some boots. You can't stop the snow or start the rain, but you can try to match the weather with your outfit once you know what it's going to be like.