Women & TTB

[Brian]

One of TTB owner's stated desires is for the forum to be a comfortable place in which females feel welcome to participate. This is a worthwhile objective and I believe the topic deserves some sincere discussion.

(Yes, I see the irony of me creating this thread after helping to derail the last one...)

Seems to me that questions which probably should be addressed include things like:

• What forms of behavior are exhibited on the forum which are not invitational towards women?
• How bad is the situation currently?
• What can individual Bums do to make the forum more invitational?
• What should individual Bums do?
• What can/should the forum's management team do?
• How can/will we track progress towards fulfilling this objective?
• Is there a concern about stifling free expression of ideas?
• If so, how do we strike a balance between these two concerns?

I am sure these aren't "the right questions" and I am equally sure there will be additional issues to explore as part of this conversation but perhaps this is a starting point.

PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD FOCUSED ON THE TOPIC OF MAKING THETAOBUMS A MORE COMFORTABLE ENVIRONMENT FOR WOMEN.

[Silent Answers]

It's probably more to do with the attitude of the forums members, rather than something the board could do to make itself more female friendly. I'm not a woman but I wouldn't say the site is aimed at men or off putting for the ladies in any way...it's just that men dominate the cultivation/internet forum scene, unfortunately.

 

I'd definitely like to read more input from female practitioners, though.

[GrandmasterP]

Warren and colleagues (2011) found that

"...despite similar levels of physical access to the internet between men and women, the types of use vary. Men are more likely to participate in online community groups whilst women are more likely than men to communicate with others and expand their social network."

Furthermore, the authors suggest that women who participate in on line networks experience considerable negative feedback from men and that this has led to a decrease in womens participation on these forums.

Reference...

Warren J., Stoerger S. and Kelly K. (2011). Longitudinal gender and age bias in a prominent amateur new media community. New Media and Society. 14(1) 7 27

 

Full paper here....

http://www3.nd.edu/~kkelley/publications/articles/Warren_Stoerger_Kelley_New_Media_and_Society_2012.pdf

 

 

Hope that helps.

Edited August 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Seth Ananda]

Kicking out the known misogynists would be a start {hey why not include the racists and homophobes as well}

 

TTB's rules joining the 21st century would be another start.

In the past, this site has supported and stood by, or refused to moderate people guilty of hate speech, aimed at both gender and race and sexual orientation.

 

After a big crapstorm a while ago, the rules were changed to 'respect' one another which is a big fat load of nothing, because as long as you are targeting a whole race or gender rather than a single person well, then it seems to be ok.

 

 

We have our shining regulars here advocating:

 

Tricking women into sleeping with you,

women as all being money grabbing whores,

women as being less spiritual than men,

'blacks belonging to a different more animalistic species'

Men as being naturally dominant, over woman's natural subservience...

Gays being disgusting freaks of nature

That women should 'just put out' because a man might get sad at lack of sex and shoot people! {her fault of course}

And many other aspects of rape culture where a woman is not seen as being entirely in control over her body.

 

 

Any stellar intellectuals that can't see why most women wouldn't want to spend much time here, well....

Edited August 26, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[BaguaKicksAss]

Kicking out the known misogynists would be a start {hey why not include the racists and homophobes as well}

 

TTB's rules joining the 21st century would be a start.

In the past, this site has supported and stood by, or refused to moderate people guilty of hate speech, aimed at both gender and race and sexual orientation.

 

After a big crapstorm a while ago, the rules were changed to 'respect' one another which is a big fat load of nothing, because as long as you are targeting a whole race or gender rather than a single person well, then it seems to be ok.

 

 

We have our shining regulars here advocating:

 

Tricking women into sleeping with you,

women as all being money grabbing whores,

women as being less spiritual than men,

'blacks belonging to a different more animalistic species'

Men as being naturally dominant, over woman's natural subservience...

Gays being disgusting freaks of nature

That women should 'just put out' because a man might get sad at lack of sex and shoot people! {her fault of course}

And many other aspects of rape culture where a woman is not seen as being entirely in control over her body.

 

 

Any stellar intellectuals that can't see why most women wouldn't want to spend much time here, well....

 

Much much more concise than I would have been, thank you .

 

Though I will put some thought in, and post a reply later on...

[BaguaKicksAss]

What is unfortunate is that two of the women who stood up most to the derogatory comments about women in the past were banned. I'm not saying the banning was wrong at all; they really did go overboard, however... when it feels like 10 to 1, sometimes someone will snap a tiny bit.

 

Perhaps that is it. If a debate comes up about women stuff, for obvious reasons, anyone hoping to "win" the debate, even if to prove a point about gender equality, will just give up and leave (or get really pissy and get banned). For example, if a woman were to say something makes her feel uncomfortable, what % of the board would actually understand?

 

The board has become about 1000 times better since I have joined, imo. When I first came on here, I would have been embarrassed to invite some Taoists from around the internet I talk with. Also previous some women friends of mine have seen posts on here and definitely decided to not join the forums.

 

Less talking about women as objects and users would be nice. This is a very common theme unfortunately that comes up in side comments in threads a lot, and I do mean a LOT. If a woman says something about it, we are told that we are wrong due to some myriad of different intellectualized and self justified reasoning. Again though, it is 1000 times better than it was a year back.

 

Less lockerroom stuff is always good. I've noticed that this has calmed down a lot though, and I have to say seeing less nearly naked not even trying to be respectful or artistic photos of women has also been something I appreciate. However how much of us women can just ignore it vs keep that stuff of here balance there should be, I have no idea. Personally I'm used to the lockerroom atmosphere since I have worked in warehouses and also hang out with martial artists. So I just post photos of nearly naked men to prove a point, and move along. But do we only want ladies on here who are used to being one of the guys? But on the other side of the coin, do we really want to be PG 13 and way to much censorship either? Just throwing around ideas on this one.

[BaguaKicksAss]

One of TTB owner's stated desires is for the forum to be a comfortable place in which females feel welcome to participate. This is a worthwhile objective and I believe the topic deserves some sincere discussion.

 

(Yes, I see the irony of me creating this thread after helping to derail the last one...)

 

As a chronic derailer myself..... thank you for creating this one. It just wasn't the right atmosphere to start such a big topic from a split thread of a snippant comment I made .

 

 

Seems to me that questions which probably should be addressed include things like:

• What forms of behavior are exhibited on the forum which are not invitational towards women?

 

All women do such and such (negative thing). Get so sick of reading this all the time. Oh wait, some people changed it to "most" to be more politically correct . And the whole objects thing. Hello we are people too, just like everyone else; just because folks have been hurt by some person in the past (obviously a woman) doesn't mean they have to project all that negative energy on random internet discussions. (uh oh turning into a rant here).

 

 

• How bad is the situation currently?

 

Not to bad, I just stop reading threads where it comes up. I have also learned there is no point (for me personally) to stand up against it or debate it any longer.

 

 

• What can individual Bums do to make the forum more invitational?

 

Be respectful with speech . But also not chiming in to make matters worse.

 

 

• What should individual Bums do?

 

Be respectful and compassionate of others, all others. Also, I find that much of the derogatory bits about women is making it about the other person. Really, as we all know, it is *never* about the other person .

 

 

• What can/should the forum's management team do?

 

Always keep at least a woman or two on the staff, and in the backroom listen very closely to what they have to say and don't just brush it under the carpet or try to win. If in the backroom it isn't considered important, it won't be even addressed on the boards.

 

 

• How can/will we track progress towards fulfilling this objective?

 

Notice how many of the women members actually stick around (or join in the first place). Notice how many post, and how many have stopped posting. This would be more for the long term members who sort of know and remember everyone. Have more women been contributing lately?

 

 

• Is there a concern about stifling free expression of ideas?

 

If you don't make it about the other person (or group of people), things can be said respectfully. I feel that quite often we say things without thinking about their impact on people. Is it really that important to get a point across about how horrible you think a group of people are? I've really cut down on my self expression about my opinions on new agers . Perhaps I could instead of trashing on them, mention that perhaps some of the books or groups out there are written from a weekend workshop or armchair perspective, and point out some better paths. Same thing would be maybe something like saying from my experience I have found that a couple of men I have been with have used me for money and that fortunately most obviously aren't that way, and I didn't choose so well; instead of going on about how all men are lazy users. (the gender opposite term for gold diggers)

 

 

• If so, how do we strike a balance between these two concerns?

 

Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary? Well OK the third one is probably pushing it, this is the internet after all . But it all pretty much boils down to respect, are we respecting the other person? Even if there were no women members, perhaps someone would feel bad that their niece or mother was being put n a bad light. On a side note, male bashing was socially acceptable for a bit; I'm REALLY happy that shit stopped. I don't mean on the forums, I mean in person.

 

Now are stereotypes true? Actually quite often yes. However, we really do need to get over this and look at each person as an individual.

 

 

I am sure these aren't "the right questions" and I am equally sure there will be additional issues to explore as part of this conversation but perhaps this is a starting point.

 

PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD FOCUSED ON THE TOPIC OF MAKING THETAOBUMS A MORE COMFORTABLE ENVIRONMENT FOR WOMEN.

 

Must not derail, must not derail, must not derail... OK think I'm good .

[ralis]

Kicking out the known misogynists would be a start {hey why not include the racists and homophobes as well}

 

TTB's rules joining the 21st century would be a start.

In the past, this site has supported and stood by, or refused to moderate people guilty of hate speech, aimed at both gender and race and sexual orientation.

 

After a big crapstorm a while ago, the rules were changed to 'respect' one another which is a big fat load of nothing, because as long as you are targeting a whole race or gender rather than a single person well, then it seems to be ok.

 

 

We have our shining regulars here advocating:

 

Tricking women into sleeping with you,

women as all being money grabbing whores,

women as being less spiritual than men,

'blacks belonging to a different more animalistic species'

Men as being naturally dominant, over woman's natural subservience...

Gays being disgusting freaks of nature

That women should 'just put out' because a man might get sad at lack of sex and shoot people! {her fault of course}

And many other aspects of rape culture where a woman is not seen as being entirely in control over her body.

 

 

Any stellar intellectuals that can't see why most women wouldn't want to spend much time here, well....

 

Very well stated! I absolutely agree with your first statement. I have been wanting that to happen for years.

 

 

Kicking out the known misogynists would be a start {hey why not include the racists and homophobes as well}

[BaguaKicksAss]

We could try just pointing it out to them first and asking them to please change their posting style first. I think people don't realize what they are saying half the time, or how much it might affect others.

 

I've been working on this a lot myself lately.. it's difficult. I don't mean to be an ass, but sometimes it comes out. Like I said, a work in progress .

[ralis]

We could try just pointing it out to them first and asking them to please change their posting style first. I think people don't realize what they are saying half the time, or how much it might affect others.

 

I've been working on this a lot myself lately.. it's difficult. I don't mean to be an ass, but sometimes it comes out. Like I said, a work in progress .

 

There are several persons on this forum that I have challenged in regards to the behavior in question. When challenged, they become defensive, feign denial and in some cases respond with a belligerent attitude. In the past I have reported this, but with no response. Although, the recent suspension of WWROA is a start. However, WWROA has been suspended several times and is allowed back for some unknown reason.

Edited August 26, 2014 by ralis

[soaring crane]

A sub-sub forum for all sexual qigong and retention discussions. Anyone who ends up there went that way intentionally.

 

Absolutely no sex stuff in general discussion.

[C T]

“We often think of peace as the absence of war, that if powerful countries would reduce their weapon arsenals, we could have peace. But if we look deeply into the weapons, we see our own minds- our own prejudices, fears and ignorance. Even if we transport all the bombs to the moon, the roots of war and the roots of bombs are still there, in our hearts and minds, and sooner or later we will make new bombs. To work for peace is to uproot war from ourselves and from the hearts of men and women. To prepare for war, to give millions of men and women the opportunity to practice killing day and night in their hearts, is to plant millions of seeds of violence, anger, frustration, and fear, that will be passed on for generations to come. ”

--- Thich Nhat Hanh

[Songtsan]

It also a socio-cultural thing: females are gender conformed at a young age to be more prim and proper, whereas men are encouraged to be 'rude boys' - more expressive of angst, and less social-rule conforming. The mark of a man is one can think outside of the box, and be his own leader - not be easily led - which is considered 'weak willed'.

 

So it isn't necessarily that us TTB men are not supportive of TTB women, it is that we are fighting life-long social conditioning to be 'manly' - act like 'pirates' - it's what's considered cool.

 

Knowing that much of our personas are outside influenced based on perceived coolness factors, we can try to meet in the middle - that is - men become more tame, and women become more wild!

 

This is my two cents:

 

meet in the middle!

 

This is health...

 

Wo/men unite as People.

[Chang]

I have never much cared for this "Rude Boy," "Blokey," "Propper Lad" rubbish. The umbrella term idiot would serve very well to describe the behaviour of these types. The terms Boy and Lad say all there is to be said regarding their mental age as well.

 

It would be well if some Tao Bums tried a little harder to grow up into men and leave the boyish behaviour where it belongs - the locker room or perhaps the kindergarten.

[Anoesjka]

Hey, did I miss a chance to call you guys sexist pigs?

 

I don't think a thread about retention would harm us women. I don't feel it's particularly female unfriendly here, but I think I must have missed a couple of threads. On the other hand, I grew up among mostly boys, so I may not be a standard example from the female species. I have a male brain.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hey, did I miss a chance to call you guys sexist pigs?

 

I don't think a thread about retention would harm us women. I don't feel it's particularly female unfriendly here, but I think I must have missed a couple of threads. On the other hand, I grew up among mostly boys, so I may not be a standard example from the female species. I have a male brain.

 

The retention threads are irrelevant to this... Most of those actually go quite well.

 

It's very likely you missed a few . Though the forums have gotten way way way better in the past year, for stereotyping and insults in general!

 

The one post that brought up my initial snide comment in that other post is yet *another* thread about how women are going to drain all your money (if you are a man). Just one post no problem, but seeing this every single week... just gets a little old, so I bring it up.

 

The first 2 that I remember, perhaps bad examples, but it does show some general opinions which I find surprising. At the very leas you might get a good laugh (I tend to try to use humor to lighten things up a bit)

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35145-are-men-generally-more-conscious-than-women/?hl=+men%20+women%20+book

 

then

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35303-what-can-feminism-do-for-men/?hl=%20women%20%20better%20%20men

 

which was just all around bad, and

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33168-bkas-guide-on-how-to-pickup-women-and-lizard-people/?hl=%20men%20%20women%20%20book

 

TTBs is worse than some other online forums in this regard but miles better than many others .

 

On a side note, all threads no matter the content tend to go bad after about page 10!

[RiverSnake]

There is a delicate balance between giving known assholes whom violate the behavioral code of TTBs the boot.....and rampant censorship do to people being made "uncomfortable" by controversial discussions.

 

Personally i love freedom of speech and freedom in general....at the same time sometimes people say idiotic and rude things that make others (females) uncomfortable. We already have general guidelines for unacceptable and acceptable behavior...as well as the ability to Report Members if they are being directly offensive.

 

I don't like the idea of people being told "what they are allowed to say" and "not allowed to say" if it is not directly aimed at any individual member. Getting politics and gender issues involved in TTB behavioral policy is a slippery slope with many potentially "unintended consequences". When someone is consistently rude....instead of trying to tell them there offensive....i just put them on ignore....i censor them myself and sometimes report the behavior......so i don't have to deal with the non-sense.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 26, 2014 by OldChi

[BaguaKicksAss]

Though I can't help but keep thinking that this thing we are working on and this: http://thetaobums.com/topic/36001-help-us-help-buddhist-discussion/ are not that much different somehow in solution.

[Songtsan]

I have never much cared for this "Rude Boy," "Blokey," "Propper Lad" rubbish. The umbrella term idiot would serve very well to describe the behaviour of these types. The terms Boy and Lad say all there is to be said regarding their mental age as well.

 

It would be well if some Tao Bums tried a little harder to grow up into men and leave the boyish behaviour where it belongs - the locker room or perhaps the kindergarten.

 

What you are doing is judging the persona itself, whereas what I am looking at in my head is the sociocultural value which is placed upon this persona in media and whatnot, which is encouraged by both men and women - I generally tend to attract women who are attracted to the bad boy persona, because I am That. Now, the whole thing is about 'cups of tea,' that is, 'different strokes for different folks.'

 

It is a good thing that there is variety in this world. Homogenized cultures tend to be boiling pots for explosion. Just look at the Middle East.

 

I respect your tastes. I respect all tastes actually.

 

I seek conformity within noncomformity. This = bliss.

 

If you still cannot accept the great variety of things this world offers, you forever exist in Samsaric cycles of push/pull, attraction/repulsion.

 

You will never completely clean the world of your 'perceived filth,' so why try?

 

At the same time, you should express exactly what you are feeling - but not necesarily what you are thinking!

[RiverSnake]

Though.....i'd add it is still an issue that awareness should be brought too.....(this thread is a good start)....rather than something to be ignored and put under the covers. The more male members are aware of how the things they say and do affect the opposite sex (positively or negatively)...the more awareness can be brought to the typer as he makes his post.

 

Creating more laws/rules does not fix a problem. Going into the core of the issue and dissolving with awareness whats causing stagnation does.

 

My 3 cents, Peace

Edited August 26, 2014 by OldChi

[BaguaKicksAss]

I agree, new rules or tougher moderation I don't think is the solution to this sort of thing. More education and awareness instead .

[Songtsan]

Though.....i'd add it is still an issue that awareness should be brought too.....(this thread is a good start)....rather than something to be ignored and put under the covers. The more male members are aware of how the things they say and do affect the opposite sex (positively or negatively)...the more awareness can be brought to the typer as he makes his post.

 

Creating more laws/rules does not fix a problem. Going into the core of the issue and dissolving with awareness whats causing stagnation does.

 

My 3 cents, Peace

 

I am anti-misognyst, anti-feminist, anti-sexist.

 

I believe people are people, and regardless of whether they have breasts, vaginas, penises, or whatever, that they should all stand on equal footing with regard to their freedom of expression, and also being held accountable to that freedom of expression within group.

 

I personally seek to attain true androgyny, and wish to be born as a fully functional hermaphrodite in the next life.

 

I speak from my heart more often than my head.

 

Speaking from the head is calculated expression, wherein rules and structures are adhered to, based upon desire for perceived results.

 

Heart just says as heart feels.

 

Heart has no concepts of man/woman, right/wrong - it just is.

 

Mind creates schisms, dualities, right/wrong, left/right.

 

Heart is centered, balanced and unipole (I think!)

[liminal_luke]

It's legitimately tough knowing where to draw the line. Personally, I'd love to permanently throw out everyone who offends me but I also believe that bums (and in particular yours truly) have to take some responsibility for their sensitivities.

 

Case in point: Some years ago a very few respected teacher and member of this forum made the statement that gay males could never become immortal. Many agreed with him then, and, I've little doubt that many would agree with this sentiment today. To me it was every bit as offensive as if he'd said the same thing about women or blacks; more actually, since it hit me personally.

 

I wish a moderator had stepped in and banned him and his supporters forever and ever. Didn't happen. And as much as the whole thread had me in a tizzy, I do think maybe there ought to be room for debate on the subject. Or maybe not.

 

A recently suspended member said, among other things, that different races have different strengths and weaknesses. Is this sentiment taboo or no? And if he voiced a similar sentiment about gender...?

 

Liminal

[Green Tiger]

I've often wondered why there appears to be a woman in the banner, hiding behind a tree. The figure in 'crane spreads wings' posture seems male to me (although could be female).

 

The figure hiding behind the tree and the pack of wolves looks like she's wearing a skirt (although it could be a Scottish dude). And she looks like maybe she's hiding from the wolves.

 

Is there something subliminal going on in the banner, or what?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A sub-sub forum for all sexual qigong and retention discussions. Anyone who ends up there went that way intentionally.

 

Absolutely no sex stuff in general discussion.

 

I think this is a very good idea, especially for the purpose in question here.