Women & TTB

[Songtsan]

I have always found myself arguing both sides, because I am so two-faced. I am a proponent of group unity, but also a proponent of self expression and self correction, which require a process of letting go and being ones 'lower ego self.' This can be done internally (outwardly unexpressed), or externally (outwardly expressed). I think that it is good to taper off the 'bitter edge' when posting in public forums, realizing that feelings of hatred, discontent, etc. are due to issues specific to ones own self, either past life or other.

 

Many of us might even have mommy or daddy issues, and be practicing both psychological projection, and that other thing where one identifies all beings of one sex as possessing the attributes of that one or so beings of a specific sex that hurt you in your past.

 

I have seen this in myself, and mostly conquered it.

 

Growing up involves things like this.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Songtsan

[Enishi]

I think there's definitely more room for better standards of respect and better clarity in how people word their opinions and experiences. For instance saying, "some/many of group x I've encountered in my personal life act like xy" rather than "group x is xy".

 

Also, here's an interesting thought exercise for two inflammatory claims:

 

"Men are pigs/misogynists/hypocrites/cruel/arrogant/unnecessary/inferior/sexually maladjusted/intellectual eggheads/socially inept/dumb."

 

vs.

 

"Women are cruel/misandrists/hypocrites/sexually maladjusted/emotionally reactive/materialistic/socialites/crazy/arrogant."

 

After reading both claims, ask yourself if one bothered you more on an immediate visceral level, and if it did, WHY is that exactly?

[Chang]

A good little exercise Enishi. Thank you.

[C T]

I have always found myself arguing both sides, because I am so two-faced. I am a proponent of group unity, but also a proponent of self expression and self correction, which require a process of letting go and being ones 'lower ego self.' This can be done internally (outwardly unexpressed), or externally (outwardly expressed). I think that it is good to taper off the 'bitter edge' when posting in public forums, realizing that feelings of hatred, discontent, etc. are due to issues specific to ones own self, either past life or other.

Usually due to ignoring subtle body traumas which cannot be consciously detected and rectified. When the winds of memory moves (Tibetans call this lung), the traumas stir, begin to sway, then seeps in and out of gross consciousness, making some people cluelessly think, feel, do & say things which they usually, under other circumstances, will not indulge. This is repeated in patterns, subject to various universal forces and internal maladjustments, yet, despite all the influences beyond their control, in retrospective self-reflection, they usually know when they end up feeling displaced by repeated guilt, shame, hatred, envy and self-loathing, all these compounded by unrecognised, cyclical habitual ignorance. This is generally the style of living of the majority of people.

 

Meditation can realign the subtle body in some sense. It takes much work and time. Guided by expert knowledge, this process of subtle body realignment can hasten somewhat. Still, there has to be affinity and a deep enough yearning for freedom from the subtle ties that bind.

 

 

 

 

Most of the time, the conduct of frequently posting members here are not reflective of 'the majority of people'. There is hope yet, i think. This is why TTB is the only spiritual forum i have stuck with over the years. There are a handful of really neat realizers around.

 

 

 

(sorry off-topic)

Edited August 27, 2014 by C T

[BaguaKicksAss]

I think there's definitely more room for better standards of respect and better clarity in how people word their opinions and experiences. For instance saying, "some/many of group x I've encountered in my personal life act like xy" rather than "group x is xy".

 

Also, here's an interesting thought exercise for two inflammatory claims:

 

"Men are pigs/misogynists/hypocrites/cruel/arrogant/unnecessary/inferior/sexually maladjusted/intellectual eggheads/socially inept/dumb."

 

vs.

 

"Women are cruel/misandrists/hypocrites/sexually maladjusted/emotionally reactive/materialistic/socialites/crazy/arrogant."

 

After reading both claims, ask yourself if one bothered you more on an immediate visceral level, and if it did, WHY is that exactly?

 

The one about men, since I don't like hate speech, and not enough care yet about putting down men. But also unfortunately because I'm so used to women being trashed on over the years that I don't notice or react to the second one as much... *sigh*.

[Apech]

I'm glad no-one is calling me a socialite! I live in a cave and my hobby is smelling my own dirty socks. I don't want to be thought gregarious and outgoing.

[C T]

I'm glad no-one is calling me a socialite! I live in a cave and my hobby is smelling my own dirty socks. I don't want to be thought gregarious and outgoing.

Lololol

 

 

you're a funny guy, Apech.

[Aetherous]

I get the point of view of hardcore defenders of human dignity like Seth who want to see offensive posters brought to their virtual knees. And I get the point of view of tough skinned wild west types who don't mind things getting a little down and dirty (even if some members get bent out of shape along the way) in the interest of free speech and lively uncensored conversation.

 

But this weird hybrid of dismissing the arguments of those who would stand by traditionally oppressed groups as "too PC" while being exquisitely sensitive to potential slights against white males? A bit puzzling.

 

Liminal

 

It's not exquisitely sensitive to point out that white males are badmouthed here...it's a fact, and there's proof in that post of Seth's.

 

We say no sexism. No racist stuff. Yet here we are doing precisely that. It's good to point this kind of behavior out and put an end to it.

 

Also, the traditionally oppressed groups are not at all oppressed on this forum. We don't have gay haters. We don't have people who tell women to go to the kitchen or something.

 

Just because I take this point of view, that the forum has its rules and people do get banned for saying hateful things, does NOT make me a bigot. Being called that is slander (a false statement that damages my reputation)...and in the same day that Seth did this, he was saying that these perceived bigots should be banned. Despite "us" (I'm really not a bigot, misoygnist, gay hater, whatever the fuck else you guys want to insinuate) not even doing anything to warrant this.

 

It is over the line and ridiculous.

 

I'm all for human rights and dignity, and respect amongst all types of people. Because I said what I did here, does not go against this fact.

 

For instance, I've only been kind to you, Luke. I think we've shared some things regarding Kunlun in the past. I did not treat you with disdain because of who you are. You're an equal member...a taobum...a friend if we met up.

 

So yeah...all of this is just ridiculous. Sorry for feeling this way, but it does not make me one of the hateful.

[Aetherous]

Well, I can't be sure, but If a person lives in a bigoted society, yet continues to say there is nothing wrong with it, it seems they are expressing a certain kind of passive bigotry...? What do you think?

 

We just had a member suspended for quite a while, for saying something that wasn't actually racist but was perceived as such. Action was taken against someone when it wasn't even true bigotry...so I just do not see eye to eye with you, in your negative impression of this forum.

[Aetherous]

And lets not forget the anti homosexual sentiment you have expressed in the past?

You say its in the past... Should I think otherwise? You tell me

 

Please remind me of it in a PM if you wish. I truly do not recall that, and these days I wouldn't say anything of the sort. I live in a house with a few gays right now. Perhaps sometimes ideas that are expressed in words aren't the full picture of what a person is actually like in reality, and what they actually mean.

[Songtsan]

Usually due to ignoring subtle body traumas which cannot be consciously detected and rectified. When the winds of memory moves (Tibetans call this lung), the traumas stir, begin to sway, then seeps in and out of gross consciousness, making some people cluelessly think, feel, do & say things which they usually, under other circumstances, will not indulge. This is repeated in patterns, subject to various universal forces and internal maladjustments, yet, despite all the influences beyond their control, in retrospective self-reflection, they usually know when they end up feeling displaced by repeated guilt, shame, hatred, envy and self-loathing, all these compounded by unrecognised, cyclical habitual ignorance. This is generally the style of living of the majority of people.

 

Meditation can realign the subtle body in some sense. It takes much work and time. Guided by expert knowledge, this process of subtle body realignment can hasten somewhat. Still, there has to be affinity and a deep enough yearning for freedom from the subtle ties that bind.

 

 

 

 

Most of the time, the conduct of frequently posting members here are not reflective of 'the majority of people'. There is hope yet, i think. This is why TTB is the only spiritual forum i have stuck with over the years. There are a handful of really neat realizers around.

 

 

 

(sorry off-topic)

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Retrospective analysis of my memories has shown me that I harbored feelings of malign towards women (and men!) from a very very young age....some due to trauma in this lifetime, some due to envy and sexual identity disturbances. How many past lives was a woman? How many men? What is my cumulative essential thisness of my attitude? It's right here! Right now.

 

I can taste it and describe it fairly well.

 

I imagine that if I concentrated on it, I might be able to follow it down and down until I hit root source...

 

I have always gravitated more towards women than men, so I know that I am more Yang polarized....

 

This is such an interesting thing to explore.

 

Perhaps we can turn this thread into a positive, constructive analysis and gnosis of these issues...I will try when I am in the right mind state...

 

EDIT:

 

didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't already positive, but what I meant was that we could explore it from a detached perspective, versus becoming embroiled in taking sides simply because of the skin suit we are currently wearing...

Edited August 27, 2014 by Songtsan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Buddha fought no one. He lived and loved with complete equanimity.

 

What He taught was that we should each explore our truths & falsehoods personally, deeply, to see if they are actually true/false all the time, or do they change occasionally, and what happens when one goes beyond the brittleness of these dichotomous choices that lay in our minds all the time. He threw the ball back at everyone as if saying, be responsible for your own salvation.

 

You might have an argument for Buddha, but he still did not hesitate to voice his views (for lack of a better term) in opposition to the common norms and behaviours. Jesus obviously fought quite a bit. The Tao Te Ching counters much of the prevalent views of the time as well. So saying that " "against" is anti-ethical [antithetical?] to spiritual cultivation" is simply a very limited view, according to the actions of some of most eminent leaders of spiritual traditions.

[C T]

You might have an argument for Buddha, but he still did not hesitate to voice his views (for lack of a better term) in opposition to the common norms and behaviours. Jesus obviously fought quite a bit. The Tao Te Ching counters much of the prevalent views of the time as well. So saying that " "against" is anti-ethical [antithetical?] to spiritual cultivation" is simply a very limited view, according to the actions of some of most eminent leaders of spiritual traditions.

yes, yes, antithetical... thank you for the correction! Although, on second thoughts, anti-ethical is not completely without credence either.

 

The flipside of 'against' sometimes does not mean 'for'. There are ways to push and ways to pull, ala SunTzu & co.

 

Knowledge is leverage, not brutish, not weak either.

Edited August 27, 2014 by C T

[Songtsan]

This has been said in various ways already, but it seems that it all boils down to ownership and identification with the body.

 

Drop the body as an object.

 

Then see where you stand.

 

Limitless forms, all illusions.

 

But, back to 'reality' (pragmatic style that is)...

 

What we seek is to create peace, pure and simple. Even when we are hating on someone, behind the hate lies consternation and frustration and a 'can't you just see things my way?' type of feeling...

 

So all of the superficial currents of angst, enmity, and burning brimstones are simply messages saying, 'you hurt my feelings.'

 

This is what I find in myself when I track it down.

 

Going further through the delusion, I find that it all sources from ignorance, of course.

 

Not to be cliche' - but that's what it is!

 

Seriously...ignorance is the root of our frustration - mixed messages, ill communications (like Beastie Boys!)

 

y'all know wadda mean?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

let's say you're on a subway, and you see a woman being assaulted. Is the "spiritual thing to do" just to sit there and not be against it?

 

Songtsan, I put part of the blame for that on not being able to use the nuance of natural speech, which often makes things come out as "this is how it is!" I know I have difficulty with that myself because I use more "nuance" when saying something in opposition to someone elses opinion. It takes a long time to write things in a way using the same words but communicating the nuance as well.

 

There may be something, also, to the absence of this nuance resulting in the "nuance" becoming impolite and confrontational, in the absence of any audio or visual cues, deference, intensity, etc..

[Songtsan]

let's say you're on a subway, and you see a woman being assaulted. Is the "spiritual thing to do" just to sit there and not be against it?

 

Songtsan, I put part of the blame for that on not being able to use the nuance of natural speech, which often makes things come out as "this is how it is!" I know I have difficulty with that myself because I use more "nuance" when saying something in opposition to someone elses opinion. It takes a long time to write things in a way using the same words but communicating the nuance as well.

 

There may be something, also, to the absence of this nuance resulting in the "nuance" becoming impolite and confrontational, in the absence of any audio or visual cues, deference, intensity, etc..

 

Hell no! I'd get into ass-whooping mode...

 

now the question is, if you are on the subway, and you see a woman assaulting a man, do you just sit there, assuming, 'He must have had it coming, you go girl!..' or some bullshit?

 

I haven't been in a fight in almost 20 years...my first fight in that time (around April) was from my girlfriend....black eye, cut above eye, bite marks on fingers, bruises all over body, clumps of hair pulled out, and more...

 

you ask, 'Did I defend myself?' hell yes I did....we were both walking around with black eyes for some time....it's more detailed than that, but point is, I treat everyone equal, all the time, If a woman or man attacks me, verbally, physically, psychically, or otherwise, I retaliate.

 

I see no differences besides the surface. Everyone is a saint and a sinner.

 

Being male or female doesn't mean shit spiritually speaking...everyone has equal access to all paths and all powers, and all the shortcomings.

 

Skin suits...that's it...

 

99.999999% the same...super tiny differences

 

What creates the exaggerated differences is mind, via sociocultural genderizing ridiculousness..

 

If I ever have kids, be they boys or girls, they are being trained as Ninjas!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hell no! I'd get into ass-whooping mode...

 

now the question is, if you are on the subway, and you see a woman assaulting a man, do you just sit there, assuming, 'He must have had it coming, you go girl!..' or some bullshit?

 

I haven't been in a fight in almost 20 years...my first fight in that time (around April) was from my girlfriend....black eye, cut above eye, bite marks on fingers, bruises all over body, clumps of hair pulled out, and more...

 

you ask, 'Did I defend myself?' hell yes I did....we were both walking around with black eyes for some time....it's more detailed than that, but point is, I treat everyone equal, all the time, If a woman or man attacks me, verbally, physically, psychically, or otherwise, I retaliate.

 

I see no differences besides the surface. Everyone is a saint and a sinner.

 

Being male or female doesn't mean shit spiritually speaking...everyone has equal access to all paths and all powers, and all the shortcomings.

 

Skin suits...that's it...

 

99.999999% the same...super tiny differences

 

What creates the exaggerated differences is mind, via sociocultural genderizing ridiculousness..

 

If I ever have kids, be they boys or girls, they are being trained as Ninjas!

 

Well, thanks for sharing that with us Songtsan, but that's idiotic to think you shouldn't defend yourself any differently from a woman than from a man. The average 14 year old boy would be about an even match for the average grown woman, and there's a reason why it's also dishonourable to go toe to toe with a fourteen year old boy unless your maybe under 16 yrs old.

 

And yes, I can say that it's idiotic, because again, being against bashing women is acceptable on ttb. Being for bashing women is not acceptable.

[Songtsan]

 

Well, thanks for sharing that with us Songtsan, but that's idiotic to think you shouldn't defend yourself any differently from a woman than from a man. The average 14 year old boy would be about an even match for the average grown woman, and there's a reason why it's also dishonourable to go toe to toe with a fourteen year old boy unless your maybe under 16 yrs old.

 

And yes, I can say that it's idiotic, because again, being against bashing women is acceptable on ttb. Being for bashing women is not acceptable.

I way pulled my punches in that incident, although in hind site, I would have done everything differently- just held her down until the demon possession phase passed. We were both drunk and just letting our animal nature take over. For the most part I was trying to avoid her and only reacted violently when she started trying to bite my nose off..that's when I freaked out and went into auto attack as defense mode.

 

It is an interesting quandary however. I generally am pretty feminine internally. The first time I saw UFC MMA on TV I felt sick to my stomach. I've always avoided getting into fights, even in prison, when it made me look like a punk bitch, because it just doesn't make sense to damage the body. What happened was that I flipped.

 

I would generally pull my punches with anyone, guy or girl. I lean towards nonviolence when well managed.

 

I just recently saw a couple arguing fiercely when walking down the street...the girl kept punching the guy in the face and trying to basically scratch his eyes out. He was doing his best to keep her hands blocked and taking no retaliative actions against her.

 

I have been thinking about this for some time really.

 

There are many uncomfortable gender disparities which exist. I have in the past believed at times in eye for an eye, but lately have been working on trying to be non-vengeful.

 

When it comes to straight self defense, I will simply do what needs to be done, but no more-apply the exact amount of force needed. See no difference in my attacker, regardless of race, gender, political affiliation, civil position, or whatever. I am thinking about police personnel with that last one.

 

By leveling the playing field and staying aloof from stereotyping, I can see everyone as Mandala deities. Durga was one of the most bad ass destroyers in the Hindu pantheon, one of my favs. To see women as inherently weaker is biased. It'd be the same as me saying that one should take it easy on short and skinny males, as they are attacking me...I just deal with the exact right amount of force and see no difference based on form.

 

No one gets special privledges based on assumed form, except perhaps for younger folks and mentally handicapped or mentally ill, but even then I am not letting them abuse their position.

 

I have met too many woman martial artists and police officers who could kick my ass to give anyone special privledges.

 

All is fair in love and war.

 

Sandbox rules: its about respect

[3bob]

Songtsan, I would tend to assume that you know wrathful deities only exist in relative worlds to protect dharmas in effect for such, thus being minor to intermediate compared to the "bad ass" who kills death. (?)

Edited August 28, 2014 by 3bob

[Seth Ananda]

Hate speech is anything that targets an innocent harmless person, who is how they are regardless of choice, and marginalises them or tries to make them feel bad for something they have no choice in, or control over.

It is truly hateful behaviour, and it has no place in a non kkk, global forum in the 21st century.

 

It does not apply to conditions like pedophilia, chosen religions, or cultural differences which are all highly worth critiquing, and the right to critique them should be vigorously protected.

(Some might say you don't choose culture either, but it is a changing thing you get born into, and may have many positive or negative elements which can be embraced or ignored. {there is choice within it})

 

Being a male/female/other is not something you have any control over however.

Neither is your race, or sexual orientation. This is how you are born.

 

Targeting anything about any impossible to change conditions, is utterly hateful and destructive.

 

There is nothing for the targeted person to do, other than try to defend themselves, although logically it is not something they can actually be 'wrong' about. 'Wrong' implies the possibility of becoming 'Right' indicating 'change', which for these people is an impossibility.

 

Hatespeech is therefore something that can only ever be harmful, rude, and pointlessly timewasting.

 

There is no possible answer to it.

 

It corrupts the atmosphere, divides communities, hurts people, and can not be answered as a challenge to better oneself.

 

Why continue to allow such a vile and pointless form of expression to be aired here?

Edited August 28, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I way pulled my punches in that incident, although in hind site, I would have done everything differently- just held her down until the demon possession phase passed. We were both drunk and just letting our animal nature take over. For the most part I was trying to avoid her and only reacted violently when she started trying to bite my nose off..that's when I freaked out and went into auto attack as defense mode.

 

[....]

 

Thanks for clarifying your position here at least then.

[Seth Ananda]

It's not exquisitely sensitive to point out that white males are badmouthed here...it's a fact, and there's proof in that post of Seth's.

Its not bagging 'white males' to say that some of them bully people.

 

We say no sexism. No racist stuff. Yet here we are doing precisely that. It's good to point this kind of behavior out and put an end to it.

 

Its not what you are doing. All you are doing is fighting for a set of forum rules, where sexist and racist stuff can be said.

Saying its not happening here, that everything is fine is just untrue.

 

We have women here saying that it is happening, and they are the ones that should be listened to.

Not someone who is never on the receiving end of it, so never really notices it.

 

 

 

Also, the traditionally oppressed groups are not at all oppressed on this forum. We don't have gay haters. We don't have people who tell women to go to the kitchen or something.

Rubbish. There are a number of gay haters on this forum. Drewlotuswhatever, wwroa, and numerous others tell people it is unnatural, disgusting, that they are not born that way, only that way because of masturbation?... which all constitutes being openly allowed to spread hate speech.

 

The 'rules' allow this because they say to respect one another, so you can say nearly anything you want as long as you don't target an actual individual member.

 

There are a number of women haters here too. Women are to be tricked so you can fuck them, women 'are' naturally subservient, women 'are' money grabbing whores, women are to blame for shooting spree's because they dont 'put out' when a man wants them, they 'are' less capable of evolution, they 'are' more materialistic/superficial, women 'only' go for 'alphas', bad boys and jocks,

{Jeeshs, the pit is chock full of these threads, but they often get 17 pages or more before going there, and people rarely get reprimanded for hate speech}

 

The 'rules' allow this because they say to respect one another, so you can say nearly anything you want as long as you don't target an actual individual member.

 

There are a number of race haters here as well. Saying "that you only need to walk through a ghetto at night to prove that blacks are a different species", or that racial profiling is acceptable {you liked that post Atherious} or posting antiquated evolution graphs showing Africans as primitive less evolved species... it happens frequently enough.

 

The 'rules' allow this because they say to respect one another, so you can say nearly anything you want as long as you don't target an actual individual member.

 

 

Just because I take this point of view, that the forum has its rules and people do get banned for saying hateful things, does NOT make me a bigot.

Well I didn't actually call you one.

Being called that is slander (a false statement that damages my reputation)...and in the same day that Seth did this, he was saying that these perceived bigots should be banned. Despite "us" (I'm really not a bigot, misoygnist, gay hater, whatever the fuck else you guys want to insinuate) not even doing anything to warrant this.

 

It is over the line and ridiculous.

 

I'm all for human rights and dignity, and respect amongst all types of people. Because I said what I did here, does not go against this fact.

 

For instance, I've only been kind to you, Luke. I think we've shared some things regarding Kunlun in the past. I did not treat you with disdain because of who you are. You're an equal member...a taobum...a friend if we met up.

 

So yeah...all of this is just ridiculous. Sorry for feeling this way, but it does not make me one of the hateful.

[3bob]

not sure about the full meaning of "any impossible to change conditions" when it comes to the mind since mind is a changeable program. (for better or for worse)

[Seth Ananda]

Can you stop being a man with your mind?

 

If you are hetrosexual, can you stop finding women sexually attractive, and start finding men utterly desirable?

 

If you can how do you know you arent already a little bit bysexual?

 

 

But in someways its an important question. The 'Gay Cure' places sometimes have brief short term success, and anyone with good concentration skills can do some weird things to their perspective. I did it myself temporarily, but my 'fall back' biology/makeup is heterosexual.

Many churches for instance have dropped the gay cure programs due to utterly 'disappointing' lack of long term success.

 

Indeed the hardest thing for bigots seems to be that they can't understand that being gay is not a choice. Over and over they say things like lets 'fuck the gay out of her', what a weirdo or pervert, why would someone choose that lifestyle?...

 

 

So regardless of what a christian brainwashing camp or a yogi can do to their brain, we have to accept people as they are, while in the 'born this way' category

Edited August 28, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think part of the problem here is that not enough of the people who have a problem with hate speech raise their voice when it comes around. Most people just don't want to go there. But as a place for eclectic spiritual discussion here, I really don't see why it's so strange to people that anything commonly perceived as hate speech would be disallowed.

 

Sure, there might be reason to talk about certain things here like, for example, traditional views on homosexuality in cultivation, but it's easily a discussion that we can do without on the forum, and I'm sure the reasonable people who have controversial views on it won't have any problem skipping that conversation outside of perhaps private messages.

 

We want this place to be inviting for the types of people that seek out this type of forum, and the overwhelming majority of people like that that I've met in person would not be comfortable with anything resembling hate speech.

 

I know this is not a temple, yoga studio, or dojo, but any of these places would never welcome hate speech in this day and age, at least not in the study area - so there's not much reason to expect it to be allowed here either, imo.