Women & TTB

[3bob]

Can you stop being a man with your mind?

 

If you are hetrosexual, can you stop finding women sexually attractive, and start finding men utterly desirable?

 

If you can how do you know you arent already a little bit bysexual?

 

 

But in someways its an important question. The 'Gay Cure' places sometimes have brief short term success, and anyone with good concentration skills can do some weird things to their perspective. I did it myself temporarily, but my 'fall back' biology/makeup is heterosexual.

Many churches for instance have dropped the gay cure programs due to utterly 'disappointing' lack of long term success.

 

Indeed the hardest thing for bigots seems to be that they can't understand that being gay is not a choice. Over and over they say things like lets 'fuck the gay out of her', what a weirdo or pervert, why would someone choose that lifestyle?...

 

 

So regardless of what a christian brainwashing camp or a yogi can do to their brain, we have to accept people as they are, while in the 'born this way' category

 

Well I'm sure you know the sword cuts both ways...

 

Also:

Can a bigot stop being one with their mind, yes

Can a suicide bomber stop being one with their mind, yes

Can a dangerous fanatic of any stripe stop being one with their mind, yes

for none of the above (in the tiny amount of examples) were born that way.

 

As for your absolute like statements about homosexual identity (and many other forms of identity) I think some of that may not be so absolute...although it may be default-wired (so to speak) as you imply for many. Btw, very young kids don't really have much of a sexual identity either way do they (?) and they to were born that way.

[C T]

Does oppressive behaviour really run rampant here? Or does it simply dot the landscape occasionally? Are the reactions overkilling the subject of women in TTB?

 

Harmonious Emptiness asked what i would do if i see a woman being accosted. I was thinking about it for a while, and kept asking myself whether the women of TTB can actually be compared to that victim in the underground scenario. I dont recall any exchange happening and me thinking that any particular female poster was being victimised, as in the male counterparts sort of gang up to bash a particular female poster. Perhaps its happened, but i really cannot recall, or may have missed certain posts. Topics where gender friction could potentially flame up are few and far between anyway.

 

However, to directly answer HE's question: I have, over the years, witnessed such events, so its not even a hypothetical consideration. Of course i would, if i could, respond to anyone who's in distress, but the thing is, if by responding to the situation would mean having to take down an oppressive person, then i don't see that as any sort of conflict, since my motive is to help restore balance. This balance can only be optimal if the engagement is accompanied by the sort of response that dignifies both the victim and the oppressor, in the total absence of bias. This absence of bias is crucial if one's aim is conflict resolution. Only then can spiritual qualities like clarity, true justice and fairness prevail. Of the three, clarity must be primary because some situations it can be a challenge to clearly demarcate between victim and oppressor. So much trickery abound.

Edited August 28, 2014 by C T

[Seth Ananda]

As for your absolute like statements about homosexual identity (and many other forms of identity) I think some of that may not be so absolute...although it may be default-wired (so to speak) as you imply for many. Btw, very young kids don't really have much of a sexual identity either way do they (?) and they to were born that way.

 

I am not going to say that there are not occasional blurry areas. People might bring up men or women who 'go gay' at some point after a seemingly previous heterosexual existence.

 

But who are we to make assumptions about their experience?

How can we be sure that they were not 'closet cases' earlier, playing the role that they thought society demanded?

 

Maybe they are Bi? Is it even any of our business?

Is it any different or less valid if their evolution leads them to homosexuality from a previously heterosexual existence than if they were born to it? No.

We have no business questioning someone's sexuality {outside of a simple desire to learn}.

At least not in some interrogative manner, our questioning agenda implying subtlety that we can maybe get to the root of the 'problem' and can 'fix' them or discover whats 'wrong' with them...

 

The whole statement "if they went gay, maybe they can go back to straight" is usually a kind of hate speech statement.

Its implying that heterosexual existence is preferable to the homosexual 'pathology'.

And its trying to reassert the false premise of choice as being part of the equation, because if they 'chose' it, its easier to vilify them (rather than face our discomfort), which is harder to do in the understanding that its a totally natural, normal phenomena.

 

Being born gay or slowly turning gay are not in the realms of 'choice', therefore like gender and race, they should be treated as sacrosanct ~ An essential unquestionable part of the individuals dignity and nobility of existence.

[Brian]

Thought this warrants repeating lest it gets lost in the ping-pong match of, "No, you're the hater..."

<snip>

My general suggestion is to respect that women, like all demographics, are diverse group who don't all want the same thing, ask questions, consider the other person's point of view and opinion, turn off the steamroller, including those who want to rescue women with the steamroller- take a collaborative approach.

[ralis]

Does oppressive behaviour really run rampant here? Or does it simply dot the landscape occasionally? Are the reactions overkilling the subject of women in TTB?

 

Harmonious Emptiness asked what i would do if i see a woman being accosted. I was thinking about it for a while, and kept asking myself whether the women of TTB can actually be compared to that victim in the underground scenario. I dont recall any exchange happening and me thinking that any particular female poster was being victimised, as in the male counterparts sort of gang up to bash a particular female poster. Perhaps its happened, but i really cannot recall, or may have missed certain posts. Topics where gender friction could potentially flame up are few and far between anyway.

 

However, to directly answer HE's question: I have, over the years, witnessed such events, so its not even a hypothetical consideration. Of course i would, if i could, respond to anyone who's in distress, but the thing is, if by responding to the situation would mean having to take down an oppressive person, then i don't see that as any sort of conflict, since my motive is to help restore balance. This balance can only be optimal if the engagement is accompanied by the sort of response that dignifies both the victim and the oppressor, in the total absence of bias. This absence of bias is crucial if one's aim is conflict resolution. Only then can spiritual qualities like clarity, true justice and fairness prevail. Of the three, clarity must be primary because some situations it can be a challenge to clearly demarcate between victim and oppressor. So much trickery abound.

 

If you go back into off topic or the pit, you can read the posts by Aetherous aka Scotty in which he stated that women who have abortions should be put in prison.

 

There were a number of posters advocating forced transvaginal ultrasound by state appointed doctors before allowing a women her right to have an abortion. 'States rights' persons love this version of authoritarian abuse against women.

Edited August 28, 2014 by ralis

[Chang]

When considering the attitude of men towards women, our own attitude and that of other men, it is well to ponder these words of John Masefield.

 

C.L.M.

IN the dark womb where I began

My mother's life made me a man.

Through all the months of human birth

Her beauty fed my common earth.

I cannot see, nor breathe, nor stir,

But through the death of some of her.

 

Down in the darkness of the grave

She cannot see the life she gave.

For all her love, she cannot tell

Whether I use it ill or well,

Nor knock at dusty doors to find

Her beauty dusty in the mind.

 

If the grave's gates could be undone,

She would not know her little son,

I am so grown. If we should meet

She would pass by me in the street,

Unless my soul's face let her see

My sense of what she did for me.

 

What have I done to keep in mind

My debt to her and womankind?

What woman's happier life repays

Her for those months of wretched days?

For all my mouthless body leeched

Ere Birth's releasing hell was reached?

 

What have I done, or tried, or said

In thanks to that dear woman dead?

Men triumph over women still,

Men trample women's rights at will,

And man's lust roves the world untamed

 

O grave, keep shut lest I be shamed.

• John Masefield

 

[Songtsan]

Songtsan, I would tend to assume that you know wrathful deities only exist in relative worlds to protect dharmas in effect for such, thus being minor to intermediate compared to the "bad ass" who kills death. (?)

I emanate wrathful deity energy from some realm or other...we can all channel such deity energy, or other energies, from the 'subtle realms,' because we interexist in all spaces, at all times. I won't name particular deity manifestations, because names are fickle things. The more you get rid of your 'normal' persona by emptying that space, the more you can invite in demons and gods from the other realms to inhabit your 'skin suit.' This body is a host vehicle for deity/demon manifestations...

[liminal_luke]

Just as an aside, I personally don't care for the argument about gay people not having a choice. Not that it isn't true. Attempts to consciously change sexual orientation just because a person wants to, however badly, are almost always doomed to failure. I just think the choice argument is a lousy way to justify being OK with gay people.

 

I mean what if we said that about blacks. " Oh, it's OK that you're black because you were born that way and couldn't help it. Naturally you'd prefer to be white if you had a choice but since you don't have that option we'll accept you as is." Yuck, right?

 

I didn't set out to be gay, but now that I am I wouldn't change even if somehow I could. Why should I ? I don't expect all black people to want to be white. I don't expect all women want to become men. And ,by golly, I put my time in as a self-hater as a teenager and I'm over it. Not gonna change for nobody and I'm not even gonna pretend to want to.

 

Being gay is OK because being gay is OK. Period.

 

 

LIminal

[Songtsan]

When considering the attitude of men towards women, our own attitude and that of other men, it is well to ponder these words of John Masefield.

 

C.L.M.

IN the dark womb where I began

My mother's life made me a man.

Through all the months of human birth

Her beauty fed my common earth.

I cannot see, nor breathe, nor stir,

But through the death of some of her.

 

Down in the darkness of the grave

She cannot see the life she gave.

For all her love, she cannot tell

Whether I use it ill or well,

Nor knock at dusty doors to find

Her beauty dusty in the mind.

 

If the grave's gates could be undone,

She would not know her little son,

I am so grown. If we should meet

She would pass by me in the street,

Unless my soul's face let her see

My sense of what she did for me.

 

What have I done to keep in mind

My debt to her and womankind?

What woman's happier life repays

Her for those months of wretched days?

For all my mouthless body leeched

Ere Birth's releasing hell was reached?

 

What have I done, or tried, or said

In thanks to that dear woman dead?

Men triumph over women still,

Men trample women's rights at will,

And man's lust roves the world untamed

 

O grave, keep shut lest I be shamed.

• John Masefield

This strikes straight through to my heart. Thank you for this one!

[Songtsan]

I have hardly ever heard a woman refer to herself as a 'bum.'

 

'Bum' seems to be a masculine term...

[C T]

Just as an aside, I personally don't care for the argument about gay people not having a choice. Not that it isn't true. Attempts to consciously change sexual orientation just because a person wants to, however badly, are almost always doomed to failure. I just think the choice argument is a lousy way to justify being OK with gay people.

 

I mean what if we said that about blacks. " Oh, it's OK that you're black because you were born that way and couldn't help it. Naturally you'd prefer to be white if you had a choice but since you don't have that option we'll accept you as is." Yuck, right?

 

I didn't set out to be gay, but now that I am I wouldn't change even if somehow I could. Why should I ? I don't expect all black people to want to be white. I don't expect all women want to become men. And ,by golly, I put my time in as a self-hater as a teenager and I'm over it. Not gonna change for nobody and I'm not even gonna pretend to want to.

 

Being gay is OK because being gay is OK. Period.

 

 

LIminal

Bravo! Of course it is ok to be gay.

 

The put-down opinions of others do not, should not, diminish one's comfyness with their own choice, sexual preference, or one's natural condition .

 

Limitations and doubts arise only when this comfyness have to be defended, and the more defensive one gets, the more distorted the picture becomes. Then one not only have to forcefully deal with real issues, but a host of imaginary ones too. Kind of feeds off each other... imaginations are vast and endless, like space, and so the need to be defensive eats into that, consuming one from the inside out until such time, embittered by the conflict, and by unseen forces created by the imaginings, one will be driven to the point of having to grapple, finally, with one's own demise.

 

Do the oppressors and the firestarters care? Unfortunately, hardly one will.

 

Women ought to realise that they are empowered by their own feminine qualities, and devote energy to hone these qualities to the point where resistance and oppression simply dissolve in the light of their presence.

 

In Tibet, there's a saying, don't try to subjugate imaginary demons, learn to subjugate one's own mind. Then both mind and demons are pacified.

[C T]

I have hardly ever heard a woman refer to herself as a 'bum.'

 

'Bum' seems to be a masculine term...

its bummette.

[liminal_luke]

Women ought to realise that they are empowered by their own feminine qualities, and devote energy to hone these qualities to the point where resistance and oppression simply dissolve in the light of their presence.

 

Thanks for your post C T. I thought the above quote especially beautiful.

 

Liminal

[C T]

Thanks for your post C T. I thought the above quote especially beautiful.

 

Liminal

Merci...

[Songtsan]

I never realized that 'bum' meant 'a person who devotes an excessive amount of time/energy to a specific activity.'

 

I always associated the word with the more negative connotation..

 

Oi!

[C T]

"Bum" if you want to equalize parties. "Bummette" if you want to draw a distinction between parties.

i was thinking more like two equal wholesome individuals making a more complete whole. Different in name, but united in aspiration.

Edited August 28, 2014 by C T

[Spotless]

I agree, new rules or tougher moderation I don't think is the solution to this sort of thing. More education and awareness instead .

At a certain point disruptive behavior needs no education or awareness - it needs to move on.

 

I have 22 in my ignore prefs.

6 of them were banned.

 

I would bet that 15 of the 16 remaining are on a very high number of ignor/prefs (the one not included is someone on the list simply because they never seem to post actual content IMO)

 

I believe that instead of making it a moderators decision, make expulsion an automated thing:

When a certain percentage of a members postings result in a certain percentage of ignor/prefs then the person is removed (by the community). Possibly first time for 1 year, second time for 3 years, third time for life (overly fair to allow for growth)

 

It the mechanics of creating this are too difficult, then make it a simple percentage:

Possibly 5%. This number may seem very low and it may be but I am just offering up a percentage, you have to take into account that of the entire membership only a few are routinely using the site and participating frequently. Of the group regularly participating, only a certain number finally are driven to ignor/prefs. The 5% figure would then mean that in all probability about 40-60% or more of the regular users find the person on their ignor/pref undesirable and clearly disruptive.

 

I think being able to talk about men and women is a vital part of the discussion. In practice out in the real world (non-virtual) these types of discussions are almost impossible and yet they are clearly valuable. Rarely do students bring them up to a teacher - it is almost entirely on the onus of the teacher to bring up such things and few students will ask questions of the teacher regarding whatever it was the teacher said. Forums like these are extremely helpful - we just don't tread water in these areas and we should.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Spotless

[Brian]

Just for contrast, I'll add that I don't have anyone on my Ignore list. Several years ago, I briefly put one person on that list because I was being stalked but that person was banned a few days later for communicating threats of physical violence against a bunch of members.

[ralis]

Found this article in which a town in Brazil is dominated by women and men need to follow their rules or else. Interesting!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/brazilian-town-run-by-women-is-looking-for-a-few-good--single--men-210647685.html

[Taomeow]

Seth,

 

While we're venting, here's a reflection for you.

 

You come across to me as incredibly judgmental and condescending. Your energy feels downright hostile, like a tiger ready to tear to shreds anyone who doesn't think like him, and is strongly threatening to me personally. Maybe that's because, despite not being racist or homophobic, I'm the kind of sexually maladjusted egghead your female friends complained about, and that I get the impression that you despise me as well.

 

I beg to differ. Being passionate about all the right, humane, compassionate causes does not mean being judgmental and hostile. It means being a deeply feeling human being. As opposed to a numbed-out brainwashed conformist.

 

For a frame of reference: I mostly avoid discussions of this kind, not because I've nothing to say but because as soon as I start typing, it's expletives and nothing but -- so I have to abort. Expletives and the angriest of diatribes, directed at bigots, misogynists, racists, homophobes, anti-Semites, and occasionally some less-regular varieties of nazi-huggers, those who get creative by putting down younger people, older people, even, for fuck's sake, Russians recently, non-vegetarians for chrissake, and certainly political and conscientious nonconformists on a regular basis -- our enforcers of political and conscientious orthodoxy are quite vigilant in this respect --

 

and I hate, with a passion, everything these folks stand for. I don't hate the people, mind you, I hate the hate speech, and the masked, indirect, implicating kinds more than the open and direct ban-inviting kind.

 

So, let it be known: I hate and despise, with a passion, all the great malicious murderous soul-defiling evils bigots have perpetrated against this world of ours in the millennia of their disgusting, cruel, numbed-out, self-serving, inhumane, inhuman rule --

 

and by the same token, all the pusillanimous petty evil deeds the lesser of them, those with no power save for the power of hate speech, have committed on this forum. (Yeah, they don't have the power to take these petty evils on a larger scale -- they would if they could though, they would if they could...)

 

Not that I can do much about it, the entry is being offered just for information purposes. Just so anyone who ever wanted to know what this-here poster thinks of them be informed: if you've been bashing, directly or on the sly (especially on the sly) a gender, race, nation, sexual orientation, skin color, nonconformist stances that exclude the use of a convenient, traditionally endorsed scapegoat (there's a variety of bogus nonconformists who enforce the orthodoxy by using the designated, state-sponsored scapegoats thinking they're being iconoclastic -- this kind is the most pathetic of them all IMO), if you are one of these, I think you befoul the ground you tread upon and poison the sky over your head. Whether you'll ever be banned for this I don't know, but that you'll be eternally damned for this, I fully expect.

[C T]

Just for contrast, I'll add that I don't have anyone on my Ignore list. Several years ago, I briefly put one person on that list because I was being stalked but that person was banned a few days later for communicating threats of physical violence against a bunch of members.

Nor do i. strange thing this ignore function. A bit like a pineapple core remover. Use it once or twice, and then it just gets shoved deeper and deeper into the back of the utensils cabinet.

[Apech]

Nor do i. strange thing this ignore function. A bit like a pineapple core remover. Use it once or twice, and then it just gets shoved deeper and deeper into the back of the utensils cabinet.

 

I've put myself on ignore so I have no idea what I just said.

[Spotless]

Impossible. You are a mod. Can't put mods on ignore.

 

Not true

[Apech]

Ignore me once - shame on you. ignore me twice ... oh no that doesn't work.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Instead of an ignore list I would like a posts only by my fave 10-20 posters list, for days when I don't have as much time to spend in front of my computer . (though when I previously brought this idea up, folks thought it was stalking lol)