Women & TTB

[liminal_luke]

Instead of an ignore list I would like a posts only by my fave 10-20 posters list, for days when I don't have as much time to spend in front of my computer . (though when I previously brought this idea up, folks thought it was stalking lol)

 

I reckon technology-savvy, bagua-practicing magicians make excellent stalkers.

[Stosh]

Though I might be on a list or two Ive never put anyone on an ignore list , ever.

( that I recall)

I dont want to box out entirely folks I may eventually come to like,

or may say things Im not happy about hearing , but should listen to at least.

It strikes me ,personally, as intolerant, or breeding of intolerance.

it doesnt look like extending compassion for humanity in general

and besides , I just have too much curiosity.

I just cant find it in me to close doors like that.

But I get it , that some folks feel otherwise.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Stosh

[Seth Ananda]

Women ought to realise that they are empowered by their own feminine qualities, and devote energy to hone these qualities to the point where resistance and oppression simply dissolve in the light of their presence.

 

Hmm... This thread starts with the question of how we can make the forum a better place for women, and ends in instruction from a man on what women 'should' be doing and 'how' they should be spending their time?

 

This is a strange place...

[Seth Ananda]

So, what are the good reasons for not having an updated 21century socially aware set of rules about posting hate speech?

 

1. Because its already alright here, according to some men here.

 

2. There are no bigots here or fairly regular hate campaigns on any topics including race/gender/orientation, according to some men here, {some who have contributed occasionally to these topics.}

 

3. Because of some ambiguous reason about us all looking within, which is kind of fascist in its implications that that is therefore the correct practice for everyone here, and also puts the blame on the victim for feeling upset.

"poor dear, did the nasty person say unmoderated terrible things about you? Silly you, you should have looked within, so its your fault that they hurt your feelings."

 

 

What am I missing?

Edited August 28, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[thelerner]

Does oppressive behaviour really run rampant here? Or does it simply dot the landscape occasionally? Are the reactions overkilling the subject of women in TTB?

No. Yes. Yes.

Maybe its my own bias's and filters but I don't think it runs rampant. It happens, but I'd agree that dots the landscape and most often ends up in The Pitt. Sometimes not as quickly as hoped it usually makes its way there.

 

The whole thread is snowballing into other areas. Soon it might get too large and unruly, finally becomes the proverbial snowball in Hell (or the pit).

[Spotless]

Apparently the idea of using the ignore prefs is either politically incorrect or not something generally adopted - or the timid do not wish to show their faces

 

I was originally turned on to the ignor/prefs function by a posting from Brian regarding how to use it.

 

I did not use it for a very long time, then one day I decided it was a bit like listening to a music channel - some people are hard metal bands and I just don't like that music, some are extreme elevator music and it just makes pages bigger, some don't actually play music - they just quote it constantly from other sources and shove it in your face.

 

At any point in time you can still click the view button and anyone you have chosen to ignore is immediately visible in that post - so you can constantly check to see if they have something to say that might be less loud, or less discordant, or less sleepy, or less someone else entirely.

 

A huge number of members are not serious students. So if you are going to engage with them, is it necessary to position yourself directly in line of them pissing in your face while they await your reaction or do you just turn them off and check in from time to time to see if alchemy has done its work?

 

I have seen countless postings regarding "assholes" and how we should not engage with them - and then it seems that the Mods have a rule that they should engage with everyone, and many others simply cannot control their desire to "heal" the hoodlums and whack jobs (not that they will always be that way or that I was not once one of them). So the noise not only never ends, it is actually perpetuated by the MODs and those with good intentions in a casual nice never ending encouragement for those blasting about.

 

Never ending patience does not mean the same as never ending tolerance.

 

If a person constantly wants to come over to your house and they are constantly intoxicated, or they never shower, or if they are physically sick and contagious are you obliged to let them enter your house?

 

Just because you listen to some members does not mean you should not pick those members or omit members - it has nothing to do with fair play.

 

I view the TTBs on its best note as a sort of satsang - I don't think anyone with reasonable overview would not agree that the behavior of a number of frequent posters would not be tolerated for even one hour at a satsang of any credibility.

 

For those of us here as a sort of satsang, the ignor/prefs button gives us a quiet reflective space for interchange.

 

For those that are here as a sort of semi- spiritual minded hangout where we each get to lift our leg and make a mark on the nearest hydrant - no problem - to me it seems crude but I remember when I had my head up my ass and all I could generally hear were my own echos from within my colon. For some this is not crude - it is being outside of the dogma and not in adherence to any social norms and conformity - great for them - no problem - I have been there.

 

Some come in here new and pretty fresh and have wonderful questions and insight - ignor/prefs does not exclude them.

 

Many of those that are on my ignor/prefs have taken to creating posts and then go on to be about 90% of the posts content.

This has been a wonderful turn of events - they get to talk to their echos and we can look in on them whenever we wish.

Sometimes they come up with a great topic and then I have 5 or ten little spaces in a row on every page that show they have posted something - but I get to actual interaction with something more than an echo and 30 cut and paste quotes.

 

Ignor/prefs is just a tool, it is neither evil nor good - just a content tool.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Spotless

[C T]

Hmm... This thread starts with the question of how we can make the forum a better place for women, and ends in instruction from a man on what women 'should' be doing and 'how' they should be spending their time?

 

This is a strange place...

Im sorry you feel that way.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So, what are the good reasons for not having an updated 21century socially aware set of rules about posting hate speech?

 

1. Because its already alright here, according to some men here.

 

2. There are no bigots here or fairly regular hate campaigns on any topics including race/gender/orientation, according to some men here, {some who have contributed occasionally to these topics.}

 

3. Because of some ambiguous reason about us all looking within, which is kind of fascist in its implications that that is therefore the correct practice for everyone here, and also puts the blame on the victim for feeling upset.

"poor dear, did the nasty person say unmoderated terrible things about you? Silly you, you should have looked within, so its your fault that they hurt your feelings."

 

 

What am I missing?

 

I fully agree.

 

While, at the same time (not saying that you do), for the most part, I don't "have anything personal" against the people who are defending these things, because, I think being in the dark on these things is somewhat beyond their conscious awareness due the issues being beyond their environment.

 

There is definitely a denial that goes on with some well-meaning people in privileged groups about their privilege. Without diverting the conversation, I'd suggest watching some Tim Wise lectures - perhaps the only well known white man who lectures on this type of thing.

 

 

There is also, as Spotless said, something to the mod approach that wants to let those who need to become, shall we say, "more self-aware" do so by collecting their thoughts in conversations here, though at the same time recognition that an internet forum could never substitute for proper therapy.

 

I think we do need to be careful of allowing people to vent too much pollution though as it can also pollute others who might be susceptible to the fumes.

[liminal_luke]

Hmm... This thread starts with the question of how we can make the forum a better place for women, and ends in instruction from a man on what women 'should' be doing and 'how' they should be spending their time?

 

This is a strange place...

 

Seth,

 

I liked this part of CT's post but I see your point. Or at least I think I do. Implying that people should always and only focus on modulating their reaction to offensive comments from the inside rather than actually taking action (by, say, insisting that a policy against hate speech be enforced) can have a certain blaming-the-victim feel to it.

 

Maybe there's room for simultaneously cultivating the inner and the outer. I'd like to be a person who ...

 

(1) Is courageous and strong enough that I don't feel the need to bolster my own ego by putting anyone else down.

 

(2) Is willing to speak out and demand that others are also treated with respect and dignity.

 

(3) Am so grounded in myself that the comments of others, no matter how cruel and unjustified, do not throw me off kilter.

 

I'm not there yet on any of these three, but this is the direction I personally would like to go.

 

Liminal

[Nungali]

Found this article in which a town in Brazil is dominated by women and men need to follow their rules or else. Interesting!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/brazilian-town-run-by-women-is-looking-for-a-few-good--single--men-210647685.html

 

Oh ... I soooo want to visit that place! Unfortunately I am too old to make those women a good husband ... but I would love to visit for the social experience and see how they manage things, the pics make it look together.

 

I would have no problem with a psychological pat down on entering. Nor following their dictates , as if I decided I didnt like it, I could just leave - simple .

 

Once I worked on an all woman crew. The boss asked if I had a problem taking orders from a woman, I said not at all, if she was competent . Her: "Oh, so you dont mind women on top? " (in front of the crew of 4 women; 3 were lesbians), Me: "Nah! Pile on! " Then they kept offering to help me, told me I didnt have to work so hard and fast and I got to stop and have a cuppa and a smoke when I felt like tit ... sometimes I was told to take one when I didnt need to .

 

I mean ... who could blame them ? ! (The women in Brasil)

 

South of me there is 'Women's Land' but they dont let men in at all, and kick any boys born there out of the place after a certain age.

 

One of the dynamics where I live is that since our last AGM we have all women directors ... some of the men here (who will not be voted in anymore due to past demonstrated dickheadedness) urged me to stand for election, and much to their teeth gnashing frustration I said "Nah .... I want the women to take over and see if they can do a better job."

 

Obviously, with attitudes like that, I am out to destroy the world!

 

(Well, the old world anyway )

Edited August 28, 2014 by Nungali

[Aetherous]

Im sorry you feel that way.

 

You're a man and therefore have literally no insight into the subjective world of women. Or at least that's what some people believe. I don't. I think both genders are capable of insight into the opposite gender...depending on the individual - not everyone is insightful.

[Nungali]

Matrilineal clans:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trobriand_Islands

 

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31274/6-modern-societies-where-women-rule

 

It is interesting to look at the concept of marriage in these societies, sometimes it is affirmed by the woman staying on after dawn in the mans house and eating breakfast with him (its quiet acceptable to leg it pre dawn ) or even if the man helps you to garden in your patch. {Edit: helps you to grow food }

 

The best I ever saw (not in a matriarchal society but, I suppose as a ' pressure release ceremony' ) was this tribe in New Guinea, as usual , much was centered around the taro harvest, endless rituals and displays and ceremonies and ways of cooking it and presenting it and feasting on it, a LOT of work and bother for the women and the men being rediculously fussy and concerned about everything (who were, of course parading around in their best and fiercest manly costumes.

 

On the last day, the ceremony took an amusing twist, the men, still in ferocious finery had to gather in the middle of the village and stand there while the women hoicked all the left over and rotten taro at them ... it was hilarious and the men were absolutely livid!

 

But hey ... it was tribal law ... whatchya going to do ?

 

The weird thing was the visiting anthropologist recording this couldnt fathom out the reason for this part of the ceremony .... um, put it this way ..... the visiting anthropologist , he couldnt figure the reason for this part of the ceremony.

 

... Now Taobums; to finally address some of the questions in the original post: .... where are those old rotten sweet potatoes ?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Nungali

[mike 134]

.

 

LOL gave out some personal detail should not have posted that.

Edited August 29, 2014 by mike 134

[Nungali]

I reckon technology-savvy, bagua-practicing magicians make excellent stalkers.

 

The 'secret' behind practicing circle walking exposed !

[liminal_luke]

OMG Mike...If I had any doubts about the advisability of a more explicit hate speech policy here at Taobums you've certainly quashed them. How's that kundalini coming?

 

Liminal

[Enishi]

On the last day, the ceremony took an amusing twist, the men, still in ferocious finery had to gather in the middle of the village and stand there while the women hoicked all the left over and rotten taro at them ... it was hilarious and the men were absolutely livid!

 

If this was a patriarchal clan where the roles you described were reversed and the women were getting pelted with the rotten taro at the end of the ceremony, what would your reaction be?

[Nungali]

No. Yes. Yes.

Maybe its my own bias's and filters but I don't think it runs rampant. It happens, but I'd agree that dots the landscape and most often ends up in The Pitt. Sometimes not as quickly as hoped it usually makes its way there.

 

The whole thread is snowballing into other areas. Soon it might get too large and unruly, finally becomes the proverbial snowball in Hell (or the pit).

 

When it got past the required number of pages and had not compared anyone to a Natzi because of their attitudes, I thought I might join in. (You know, a bit like 'all in wrestling' ... sometimes best to hang in the corner until there are a few knockouts )

 

For those that find themselves in the pit ... a hymn ... (all together now ) ;

 

" O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!

Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.

Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!

I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.

These devils by my might to angels I will change.

These nameless horrors I address without affright:

On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,

Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;

For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:

On them will I impose my will, the law of light."

Edited August 29, 2014 by Nungali

[zanshin]

OMG Mike...If I had any doubts about the advisability of a more explicit hate speech policy here at Taobums you've certainly quashed them. How's that kundalini coming?

 

Liminal

I thought he was suggesting paying women to participate on the forum. I am materialistic enough that I'll accept a check since I'm here anyway.

[Nungali]

.

 

LOL gave out some personal detail should not have posted that.

 

Too late! Rotten sweet potatoes on their way to your letterbox

[liminal_luke]

I didn't catch that Zanshin. Guess I was too stunned by the part about how he was better than all the short bald ugly faggots who got the girls that weren't paying attention to him. Newsflash: Short bald fat guys who are chasing women in a bar are still heterosexual, no matter how ugly you consider them to be. The real faggots prefer men.

 

Ok Seth, Harmonious Emptiness...we definately need what you guys are selling. Bring on the anti-hate speech policy.

 

Liminal

[Aetherous]

If you replace the F with a PH it's still an insulting term, mike. We'll probably be saying bye bye to you soon.

[Nungali]

 

If this was a patriarchal clan where the roles you described were reversed and the women were getting pelted with the rotten taro at the end of the ceremony, what would your reaction be?

 

: What a strange patriarchal clan this is ! The women spent weeks getting waited on by the men and only on the last day they copped a few splatters ! Quick write up a paper and publish it!

 

Why would anyone classify such behaviour in a clan, at such a crucial time of harvest and storage that relates to such intrinsic and central components of their culture, as patriarchal?

 

However, if it was a matriarchal clan doing that and the roles were reversed I would react the way I did above in my post.

[3bob]

I am not going to say that there are not occasional blurry areas. People might bring up men or women who 'go gay' at some point after a seemingly previous heterosexual existence.

 

But who are we to make assumptions about their experience?

How can we be sure that they were not 'closet cases' earlier, playing the role that they thought society demanded?

 

Maybe they are Bi? Is it even any of our business?

Is it any different or less valid if their evolution leads them to homosexuality from a previously heterosexual existence than if they were born to it? No.

We have no business questioning someone's sexuality {outside of a simple desire to learn}.

At least not in some interrogative manner, our questioning agenda implying subtlety that we can maybe get to the root of the 'problem' and can 'fix' them or discover whats 'wrong' with them...

 

The whole statement "if they went gay, maybe they can go back to straight" is usually a kind of hate speech statement.

Its implying that heterosexual existence is preferable to the homosexual 'pathology'.

And its trying to reassert the false premise of choice as being part of the equation, because if they 'chose' it, its easier to vilify them (rather than face our discomfort), which is harder to do in the understanding that its a totally natural, normal phenomena.

 

Being born gay or slowly turning gay are not in the realms of 'choice', therefore like gender and race, they should be treated as sacrosanct ~ An essential unquestionable part of the individuals dignity and nobility of existence.

 

Ok, we have no business about a whole gamut of stuff, but we do have business about the whole gamut of Dharma which will resolve any mess if truly followed and not by the power of our will and interpretation alone but ultimately by the power of quintessential Spirit. Isn't the greater solution in finding common ground where identity is Spirit first and foremost while all the rest is secondary...

Edited August 29, 2014 by 3bob

[Seth Ananda]

Ok, we have no business about a whole gamut of stuff, but we do have business about the whole gamut of Dharma which will resolve any mess if truly followed and not by the power of will alone but ultimately by the power of quintessential Spirit. Isn't that the greater solution in finding common ground where Idenity is Spirit first and foremost while all the rest is secondary...

Thats what I call spiritual bypassing.

 

The delusion that trusting in spirit alone will sort out everything, when maybe spirit gave us the ability and desire to make things right, to stand for important issues and so on.. Spirits inspiration, our hands?

 

Also you cant impose your interpretation of Dharma activity on others, {thats called fascism} and sometimes an ass kicking is just as necessary as less active 'compassion'.

[3bob]

Thats what I call spiritual bypassing.

 

The delusion that trusting in spirit alone will sort out everything, when maybe spirit gave us the ability and desire to make things right, to stand for important issues and so on.. Spirits inspiration, our hands?

 

Also you cant impose your interpretation of Dharma activity on others, {thats called fascism} and sometimes an ass kicking is just as necessary as less active 'compassion'.

 

It could happen that way or it could happen per Spirit which I don't believe or hope you would rule out,,, Besides mind and will are important but are not enough to solve the problems that are burning. Btw, it feels like you twisted my words a little to bypass my attempted point and maintain your incredible emotional momentum, it is starting to feel like fire and brimstone against fire and brimstone around here?

 

Please consider that 100 seconds in pure Spirit could unravel, free and show the way and bring changes that could not be matched in a 100 years with only mental and emotional power and struggle, which granted are also very important and which I respect.

Edited August 29, 2014 by 3bob