Women & TTB

[Songtsan]

this must have been about the time the appetizer was served, right? haha :-)

 

Sorry, ignore me.

 

What I was saying was that I enjoy having women on top, and men on top and me on top and me down below, and all places...I would find it exhausting to forever be required to dominate, and it is antithetical to my nature to allow myself to be dominated for too long....I don't do much other then let the vitality flow as it will, I kind of relax..in relaxing, I at times dominate, for that is the Nature's push. I don't fight nature - no no! That would be like fighting Man/Women! Man/Women = Nature...Fools think that Nature is not Heaven, and that Heaven is not Nature...It takes two to Tango. Heaven and Earth are the same as is Samsara and Nirvana. I exist in the flames of push/pull, riding the currents....My only job is to NOT create blockages through fooly means, whether feminized or masculinized hopes and dreams....Never over express functions through gusto...nope.

[Songtsan]

re the hexagrams above I think it's western thinking that associates the top position with importance and rank.

 

whether topping from the bottom, or bottoming from the top, we are all equals

 

EDIT:

 

It is a matter of curiosity, need/want, exploration, and agreements...but this happens underneath for most people, not in the fore-brain....those who wish to see it directly though, live in paradise and knowing how it is, they aren't scared to wait and sit and allow the powers to house themselves within them.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Songtsan

[Apech]

re the hexagrams above I think it's western thinking that associates the top position with importance and rank.

 

Not really ... if rank is assigned to the lines of a hexagram the fifth line is the ruler and top the sage. The bottom is the people. This is Confucian for sure but its not western

[Taomeow]

This is global post-shamanic. East or West, top is best. South or North, it's top worth.

[Songtsan]

This is global post-shamanic. East or West, top is best. South or North, it's top worth.

 

but what if you aren't prepared to lead? Not invested with the energy that will produce proper leadership?

[Taomeow]

but what if you aren't prepared to lead? Not invested with the energy that will produce proper leadership?

 

I'll respond to that, but what I originally wrote was meant to be sarcastic. It's not what I think, it's what we are conditioned to think in a pyramid scam based world -- and it's pyramid scam based globally. Not Western, not Confucian -- universal.

 

Now to your question. I do think you hit the nail on the head with the word "energy" -- no proper leadership is possible if it's not there. A leader has to have a surplus. This is only one prerequisite for good leadership, out of many, but a sine qua non.

 

I have to disclaim this a bit though. Sometimes, power itself supplies the surplus of leadership energy once it's obtained. An example is Chairman Mao's wife, who was sickly and afflicted with cancer, among other things, while she was just a wife. But then she managed to get appointed to a position of power in the government. Her cancer went away, she became strong as a horse, and was never sick again and extremely energetic for as long as she called the shots. A lack of power -- not just over others, most people lack the power to rule their own lives -- is very draining on one's energy, perhaps more than anything else.

 

Now a personal story of a loss of leadership power for a second that resulted in giving it up for the rest of my life. I was born feeling like a leader, it was just something that was part of me as much as my arms and legs, I never wanted or didn't want it, I wasn't even aware of it -- it was just there. I was the one who decided where a bunch of kids I was playing with would go, what we would do, which game we would play and for how long, and so on. No doubts in my mind -- I always knew the way, I was certain, and I had the energy. Then one day there was a rebellion. I went too far. It was the outcome of a lack of awareness -- I didn't even know I was the leader until there was a rebellion. I was ten. I proposed something to do to a bunch of kids, then changed my mind as soon as they started going in that direction, which was not unusual for me, and said, no, let's do that instead, go there, follow me! And started running. I never had to look back, before that day, to see if I was being followed, I always was. But that time they just stood and looked at each other and didn't run after me. I realized it a second later, when I heard no footsteps behind me. It was a moment of enlightenment. I never wanted to be the leader of anything ever again. It would emerge from time to time because the instinct was still there, but I didn't act on that instinct anymore.

 

And now, for the first time in I don't know how long, maybe for the first time ever, I'm looking at a situation, elsewhere in the world, where I know I would be doing something very useful right this very moment if that episode when I was ten never took place and I went on to cultivate leadership abilities instead. But the energy isn't there anymore... There's way more wisdom and way less energy -- and a lack of energy renders wisdom feckless.

 

So, to answer your question: "what if?" -- well, nothing. Most people don't have it, and some of those who have it let it go to waste, and the former are probably better off, since they've nothing to regret. For those who let it go to waste, a day comes when they regret it. For me it's today. And this, too, shall pass...

Edited September 2, 2014 by Taomeow

[Songtsan]

So, to answer your question: "what if?" -- well, nothing. Most people don't have it, and some of those who have it let it go to waste, and the former are probably better off, since they've nothing to regret. For those who let it go to waste, a day comes when they regret it. For me it's today. And this, too, shall pass...

 

I tend to have this energy to some significant degree, but I keep it in the silly realms...I feel like letting it sit until I deem it worthy of expression. I could start a damn cult if I wanted to. I have in fact extended my Shakti outwards and infiltrated others energy bodies and shared my self with them, affecting a shaktipat of mild degree over the internet and in person, without even intending it, as far back as 2000. I withdrew my energy body when I saw this happening, because I knew that I was still polluted with ego dross and would spread my bad form selves with others. This effect is strongest when I am sexually sublimating for over 3 weeks or so...it radiates maybe out of my chest or throat area? I haven't researched it. I keep it under wraps. It has led to karmic drama in the past.

 

Hitler had this charisma, but he maybe shouldn't have used it?

 

Swami Muktananda had it, and Osho, and countless others.

 

What comes once will come again a thousand times. I feel there is no need to be in a rush.

 

I've got many years of cultivation before I decide to energetically come out of the closet and expand my energy bodies outwards into others' spheres in that way...obviously it's nothing special in that it is available to many..

 

The trick in containing it for future use in knowing how to continually engender it and store it....

 

I am not saying this to you really as you know these things already, just for the internet record.

 

If I ever feel I have something worthwhile to contribute, I may extend my shakti field outwards...

[Aetherous]

Here are a few diagrams that illustrate the importance of the feminine principle. Maybe they convey ideas that are harder to speak about.

 

 

1. Tai Chi

 

 

Chinese Character for Mother ------> Tai Chi

 

 

2. Hexagram for Peace & for Stagnation

 

 

 

Peace

 

In this hexagram, the earth trigram is on top as the first three broken lines. The heaven trigram is below as the bottom three straight lines. In other words, peace occurs when the the yang force takes the lower position to the yin force.

 

Compare this to the Hexagram for Stagnation.

 

 

In this hexagram, it is reversed. The yang force is on top as the three straight lines, moving upwards. The yin force is below as the three broken lines, moving downwards. When the yang force does not lower itself to the yin force, there is stagnation.

 

3. Internal alchemy is often compared to cooking -- conveyed by the image of a pot on the stove. This is also portrayed by the hexagram called Accomplishment.

 

Note that the yang fire must be placed below the yin water for cooking to begin!

 

 

 

4. Lao Tzu said "Humans follow earth. Earth follows sky. Sky follows Tao."

 

This is the natural order of life as the great sage envisioned it. As humans, we follow earth which is the receptive yin force. Is there anyway around it?

 

TTC Chapter 28

 

知其雄，守其雌

Know the masculine principle;

abide by the female principle.

 

That was really cool.

[3bob]

agreed.

[Uroboros]

How often do you see your gynecologist?

Did you try any TCM herbs for morning sickness when you were pregnant?

Have you practiced ovarian breathing lately?

Do you regulate your periods with the Deer exercise?

Did you accept or reject an epidural when you were in labor with your first child?

Do you feel the Mayan uterus adjustment practices have made you a more balanced... um... man?

How do you use the middle dantien to maintain healthy breasts?

What should you eat to avoid the symptoms of menopause?

 

Would you deem these and similar concerns sexist or moot, best let go of and forgotten?

 

 

There is a desire for this. I know my partner would be extremely interested in these topics. Heck, she may even join this forum if other female practitioners actually talked about and shared female oriented practices such as these. As of now, though, the things she needs to know and wants to know about, are not talked about.

 

There is a void when it comes to the female body and cultivation. You can pick up any qigong book and it will talk about men. Women, not so much.

 

Anywho, I fully support the creation a section just for female oriented practices!

 

On the topic of making this forum more female friendly...

 

I would agree with many of the statements that there needs to be a set of clear rules that are enforced. There is no need for any kind of hate or US vs THEM mentality in here. This is a place for people of all races, creeds, shapes, beliefs, genders, and anything else to come and share. To learn and grow. To find support in our pursuits of fringe paths.

 

At the same time, allot of boys on here could potentially gain something from self-inquiry into why they feel the way they do about women....for me personally, it goes back to my mother. I think many men project onto other women, what they truly feel about their mother.

 

Thats a whole different topic, though.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Uroboros

[Stosh]

There is a desire for this. I know my partner would be extremely interested in these topics. Heck, she may even join this forum if other female practitioners actually talked about and shared female oriented practices such as these. As of now, though, the things she needs to know and wants to know about, are not talked about.

 

There is a void when it comes to the female body and cultivation. You can pick up any qigong book and it will talk about men. Women, not so much.

So she would join, if the current female complement posted female specific posts , .. well they always couldve, or she couldve joined, and then asked questions.

 

 

Anywho, I fully support the creation a section just for female oriented practices!

 

On the topic of making this forum more female friendly...

 

I would agree with many of the statements that there needs to be a set of clear rules that are enforced. There is no need for any kind of hate or US vs THEM mentality in here. This is a place for people of all races, creeds, shapes, beliefs, genders, and anything else to come and share. To learn and grow. To find support in our pursuits of fringe paths.

 

The us vs them mentality popped up as soon as a gender specific section popped up. One female said she didnt want to share certain information with men, made some dehumanizing comments ,and another person suggested me to leave the thread so only people with opinions he agrees with could post to it. Another initially reacted as if I was suggesting she shouldnt be free to speak her mind.

Dividing by subjects or interests is fine for organization purposes, Its the dividing by gender or race that fosters fear and aggression,, the proof was right there in the thread, just at the suggestion!

 

 

At the same time, allot of boys on here could potentially gain something from self-inquiry into why they feel the way they do about women....for me personally, it goes back to my mother. I think many men project onto other women, what they truly feel about their mother.

 

Thats a whole different topic, though.

That last part there again , underlines a soto voce gender bias , reversed..

Ex. 'alot of girls could potentially gain by self inquiry into why they feel the way they do about men. Many women may project onto men what they feel about some other men.'

More fully corrected, IMO ,

Folks can learn more about one another, if they dont project the attitudes of one person onto another unfairly.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stosh

[3bob]

"So she would join, if the current female complement posted female specific posts , .. well they always couldve, or she couldve joined, and then asked questions". by Josh

 

This is true, but I feel there are several factors involved that impact people more than just simply joining and then posting whether they are women or anyone else, namely if there are multiple types of wars going on at the site who wants to get shot at or wounded if they looking around as a newcomer? (btw, and of course the tough cookies aren't worried about such bullets but how many people start out as tough cookies or how many tough cookies are tired of dealing with such bullets after "x" number of years?) Thus imo we had many valid concerns about having a humane playing field instead of the battle-field that was often happening.

Edited September 2, 2014 by 3bob

[dawei]

There is a desire for this. I know my partner would be extremely interested in these topics. Heck, she may even join this forum if other female practitioners actually talked about and shared female oriented practices such as these. As of now, though, the things she needs to know and wants to know about, are not talked about.

 

There is a void when it comes to the female body and cultivation. You can pick up any qigong book and it will talk about men. Women, not so much.

 

Anywho, I fully support the creation a section just for female oriented practices!

 

Well let her know we have opened one

 

http://thetaobums.com/forum/393-womens-cultivation/

 

 

I started it as a PPD so it was moderated like a PPD but it gets lost in the shuffle and no exposure for those lurking around. So now I've created it as its own area. Guests can see the area title if they come in but only members logged in will be able to get to read the threads.

 

Although it is in the regular forum area, the plan is to let it run more like a PPD with member(s) to moderator it. That will also help to keep the staff out unless there is something which really needs our involvement.

[Uroboros]

Well let her know we have opened one

 

http://thetaobums.com/forum/393-womens-cultivation/

 

 

I started it as a PPD so it was moderated like a PPD but it gets lost in the shuffle and no exposure for those lurking around. So now I've created it as its own area. Guests can see the area title if they come in but only members logged in will be able to get to read the threads.

 

Although it is in the regular forum area, the plan is to let it run more like a PPD with member(s) to moderator it. That will also help to keep the staff out unless there is something which really needs our involvement.

 

Excellent, Dawei!

 

I think having a place for female specific practices to be talked/ learned about could definitely benefit the people who are here and could potentially come here.

 

I also personally want to know about the female specific practices. Its a big gap in the mainstream qigong world. It should not be. There is much to learn on both sides of the coin.

[Stosh]

"So she would join, if the current female complement posted female specific posts , .. well they always couldve, or she couldve joined, and then asked questions". by Josh

 

This is true, but I feel there are several factors involved that impact people more than just simply joining and then posting whether they are women or anyone else, namely if there are multiple types of wars going on at the site who wants to get shot at or wounded if they looking around as a newcomer? (btw, and of course the tough cookies aren't worried about such bullets but how many people start out as tough cookies or how many tough cookies are tired of dealing with such bullets after "x" number of years?) Thus imo we had many valid concerns about having a humane playing field instead of the battle-field that was often happening.

Thats a fair point , new folks may be overwhelmed by 'old hands' ,, thats not gender specific though, is it ? If one said it was , then Id think the one thought women arent as good at handling the adversity. Also It would hint that the women weren't old hands, or they were more compassionate than the male 'old hands'. So instead we end up with a gender divided forum.

[Songtsan]

At the same time, allot of boys on here could potentially gain something from self-inquiry into why they feel the way they do about women....for me personally, it goes back to my mother. I think many men project onto other women, what they truly feel about their mother.

 

Thats a whole different topic, though.

 

This is true of both genders....there are a lot of 'old' women walking around with chips on their shoulders towards men, and 'old' men walking around with similar chips towards women. I would hesitantly conjecture that if one at all holds a view that judges, stereotypes one whole half of the population, then one has work to do. If one notes that one holds strong views towards any specific subset of the human population at all, be it race related, gender related, religion related, then this indicates an illness of the mind.

 

These stereotypical conformist views have been past like meme-viruses around the planet since who knows when....The mind that thinks it knows....does not!

 

The empty answer is 'Know Nothing' - here lies some great health and well being

 

The full answers are endless.

 

If anyone here thinks that they know something special about someone else here, simply because that person has identified their gender to the board, then feel free to live in delusional thought constructs.

 

Me myself: I intend to winnow away at those damned imputed reifying fabrications....

[Uroboros]

This is true of both genders....there are a lot of 'old' women walking around with chips on their shoulders towards men, and 'old' men walking around with similar chips towards women. I would hesitantly conjecture that if one at all holds a view that judges, stereotypes one whole half of the population, then one has work to do. If one notes that one holds strong views towards any specific subset of the human population at all, be it race related, gender related, religion related, then this indicates an illness of the mind.

 

These stereotypical conformist views have been past like meme-viruses around the planet since who knows when....The mind that thinks it knows....does not!

 

The empty answer is 'Know Nothing' - here lies some great health and well being

 

The full answers are endless.

 

If anyone here thinks that they know something special about someone else here, simply because that person has identified their gender to the board, then feel free to live in delusional thought constructs.

 

Me myself: I intend to winnow away at those damned imputed reifying fabrications....

 

My statements were not meant to imply that it does not go both ways. It does go both ways. All ways.

 

Nearly every person projects their views onto the world that just is. I like what you have posted, Songtsan

 

Since the topic of this thread is about how to make this place more female friendly and I have seen my fair share of gender bashing/ the kind of talk that would make this place seem unfriendly/ boys club to some women, I felt it was right to focus on men in my comment. Also, there are more men on TTB then women. Hence the whole discussion at hand.

 

This thread is a good example of why this forum has trouble. When it started it was about how to make this place more female friendly and welcoming. It shortly became about how male members are not doing anything wrong/ justification / arguments. That is not the kind of environment that is welcoming to people. Especially women. If I was a women and I saw how quickly a thread that was about helping the female members degraded into justification/ arguments, I would see how little respect and care is given and not come back.

 

On the flip side, Dawei created a section for womens cultivation. A woman has already posted a solid question. If none of the female practitioners, of which we have some excellent ones, comment, share or teach, then that is another problem to be dealt with at that time.

[Stosh]

Dawei also posted this not long ago

 

1. Any forum area should appear to welcome posters and not be the exclusive posting area of a few. There may well be only a few posting in certain sub-forums but it should be because they are interested to post, not because everyone else is run-off, put-off, and generally feeling ill by coming to it.

 

The womens thing certainly seems to violate this principle to me.

 

and so He doesnt mistakenly feel Im singling him out personally ..

This following was posted by Trunk...

 

Welcome! ~
TheTaoBums is an open internet forum for the discussion of the internal arts. Outside the boundaries of any one tradition or school, though leaning toward eastern influenced thought and practices, it is eclectic, egalitarian and lively. Membership is free of cost (though donations are accepted).

TTBs' Cultural Context and Founding Principles
The purpose of this document is to concisely state the most fundamental framework principles that give TTBs it's distinctive shape. This is not "all the rules, permutations, etc", just the steel beams.

TTBs exists in the general field of "The Search for Truth".
The Usual organized formats (schools) for The Search tend to have:
1. focus exclusively within a school
2. hierachical learning structure, hierachical ability to speak
TheTaoBums' founding principles form a deliberate cultural counter-point:
1. run independently of any school, which allows a more eclectic atmosphere
2. conversational learning, egalitarian ability for members to speak
TTBs' social format is "cafeteria", not "classroom". It's part of TTBs' premise that, broadly in culture, these two formats are necessary, distinct yet complementary.

TheTaoBums has a strong egalitarian ethic in that it's whole purpose is to provide a civil very open context for member conversations. However, its governance structure is mostly top down; it's not a democracy.
- admins - own / run the board
- moderators - enforce rules
- members - converse

TTBs' Conversational Context:
1. At TTBs member participation in conversation is non-hierarchical. Meaning, members have equal ability to talk regardless of level of knowledge, achievement, or status / credentials of any kind. TTBs has an underlying ethic of valuing the communication of each person.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stosh

[dawei]

Dawei also posted this not long ago

 

1. Any forum area should appear to welcome posters and not be the exclusive posting area of a few. There may well be only a few posting in certain sub-forums but it should be because they are interested to post, not because everyone else is run-off, put-off, and generally feeling ill by coming to it.

 

The womens thing certainly seems to violate this principle to me.

 

It has become clear to me, some staff (I won't speak for all), some women (I won't speak for all) that the male domination of TTB violations almost every principle of boy's club exclusivity; women don't feel welcomed here to freely talk and post.

 

More women have been run off then men; and given there very small numbers that is astonishing.

 

How about we accept that men are not going to change their dominating ways and the best solution is to give the women a place where they can talk without men running them off and posting rules down their throat

 

This decision has been made... so I am not sure what your arguing for... male domination without any regard to females?

 

It's rhetorical, please.

 

But this is further proof of the inability of men to comprehend that TTB is not a welcoming place for Women.

 

The first site of an area for women is meet with dominating angst...

[Chang]

Dawei also posted this not long ago

 

1. Any forum area should appear to welcome posters and not be the exclusive posting area of a few. There may well be only a few posting in certain sub-forums but it should be because they are interested to post, not because everyone else is run-off, put-off, and generally feeling ill by coming to it.

 

The womens thing certainly seems to violate this principle to me.

 

To be fair 50% of the worlds human population can hardly be construed as "a few."

 

I would like to suggest that the Womens Cultivation Section ( a title i find far more descriptive than "The Womans Thing") be simply given a chance. It is not that long ago that the thought of women being granted the vote led to cries of "the end of the world." But the world seems to have gone on its merry way. I fully expect that the Tao Bums will do the same.

[Stosh]

To be fair 50% of the worlds human population can hardly be construed as "a few."

 

I would like to suggest that the Womens Cultivation Section ( a title i find far more descriptive than "The Womans Thing") be simply given a chance. It is not that long ago that the thought of women being granted the vote led to cries of "the end of the world." But the world seems to have gone on its merry way. I fully expect that the Tao Bums will do the same.

Well, yes, half the worlds population wouldnt be a few, but then this thing was applied to the buddhist forum , and the worlds population of Buddhists isnt a few either though its a similar principle.

And were not talking about the womens right to vote., but whether reverse sex descrimination is fit for TTBs or whether the subdivision into restricted groupings is to be TTBs modus operandi.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stosh

[Songtsan]

My statements were not meant to imply that it does not go both ways. It does go both ways. All ways.

 

Nearly every person projects their views onto the world that just is. I like what you have posted, Songtsan

 

Since the topic of this thread is about how to make this place more female friendly and I have seen my fair share of gender bashing/ the kind of talk that would make this place seem unfriendly/ boys club to some women, I felt it was right to focus on men in my comment. Also, there are more men on TTB then women. Hence the whole discussion at hand.

 

This thread is a good example of why this forum has trouble. When it started it was about how to make this place more female friendly and welcoming. It shortly became about how male members are not doing anything wrong/ justification / arguments. That is not the kind of environment that is welcoming to people. Especially women. If I was a women and I saw how quickly a thread that was about helping the female members degraded into justification/ arguments, I would see how little respect and care is given and not come back.

 

On the flip side, Dawei created a section for womens cultivation. A woman has already posted a solid question. If none of the female practitioners, of which we have some excellent ones, comment, share or teach, then that is another problem to be dealt with at that time.

 

It's true and I flew off the handle....what I have been suffering from is the perception (not stating that it is the truth of all things in any way), that men are often vilified as being somehow screwed up in general....I think I have been feeling 'the heat' all my life in being a guy, as if I am part of a group that has caused damage, similar to feeling the heat for being white and living in a country that was stolen from colored people, and then made use of slave labor from other colored people...it is pretty much just like that.

 

What I found, upon reflection was that I did it to myself for grouping myself as being 'one of the guys.'

 

This is the root of the issue (for me)....that by labeling myself as being of a certain group, whether it be the group of 'men,' or the group of 'white people,' I have taken on the 'group fight.'

 

Therefore, I have decided no longer to label myself as a 'man,' or 'white,' for these are just arbitrary distinctions which I have decided to let go of.

 

Therefore, I have nothing more to say in this thread! It isn't about me any more....

 

HAHAHA - I have freed myself - good luck to you guys!

Edited September 2, 2014 by Songtsan

[Chang]

Well, yes, half the worlds population wouldnt be a few, but then this thing was applied to the buddhist forum , and the worlds population of Buddhists isnt a few either though its a similar principle.

And were not talking about the womens right to vote., but whether reverse sex descrimination is fit for TTBs.

 

I am afraid that I am really at a loss as to what all the fuss is about.

 

Might I suggest a little exercise. Take your argument outside this forum. Find a woman (there are quite a few about) and explain that a discussion forum, of which you are a member, has dared to provide a sub section titled "Womens Cultivation. A place for Women to discuss personal and practice issues within a private forum." Tell them in detail your objection to this ( I have just discussed this matter with my partner who came back with a very well reasoned response) and see what the reaction is. You might even put the matter to a number of women but do not be suprised if the reaction is similar.

 

Again let me again stress that this is not going to effect you or your place in the Tao Bums. Just give the Womens Cultivation Section a chance - surely this is not asking much?

[Stosh]

It has become clear to me, some staff (I won't speak for all), some women (I won't speak for all) that the male domination of TTB violations almost every principle of boy's club exclusivity; women don't feel welcomed here to freely talk and post.

 

More women have been run off then men; and given there very small numbers that is astonishing.

 

How about we accept that men are not going to change their dominating ways and the best solution is to give the women a place where they can talk without men running them off and posting rules down their throat

 

This decision has been made... so I am not sure what your arguing for... male domination without any regard to females?

 

It's rhetorical, please.

 

But this is further proof of the inability of men to comprehend that TTB is not a welcoming place for Women.

 

The first site of an area for women is meet with dominating angst...

The action violates TTBs founding principles whether it has been done already or not.

 

Besides you're claiming that men have , and do run the women off ,

( like who?) and that the women will only participate if there arent men around.

I dont like the implication ....that women in the same context as men get dominated.

subtext , that women are essentially .weak , perpetuating stereotype both against women, and against men.

 

If Admin changes the founding principles , well then those are changed , but if those principles arent changed , then the womens cultivation forum is in violation of the standing principles.

[liminal_luke]

It's kind of astounding that anyone would object to a Women Cultivation Section. Women are still free to post about topics of special concern to their gender in the general area if they choose. But if they prefer to discuss among themselves (us guys are still free to listen in) what's the big deal?

 

Awhile back there was a thread where anybody could post questions but only teachers could answer. To my memory, nobody raised a ruckus.

 

Liminal